Linda Ronstadt
Matt Duane Griffin
street in front of the Alladin Hotel in Las Vegas after dedicating the
song "Desperado" to Michael Moore during her encore? Is this a sign
that singers should never voice an opinion in ostensibly public but
actually privately owned space?
Personally, I think the first amendment is in real trouble these days.
William Morris
"Matt Duane Griffin" <deed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40FFF95E...@earthlink.net...
The hotel management was well within their rights to jettison her. If no
one in the audience complained then nothing would have happened, but
according to witnesses and hotel management many people did. This isn't a
first amendment issue - it's everyday folks showing up for entertainment and
getting a sermon, so naturally they're pissed and let the management know
about it.
Personally, I think that performers using their notoriety to foster
political agendas is despicable. Remember the Dixie Chicks? I'm STILL
waiting for Alec Baldwin to make good on his promise and get the hell off
American soil.
Michael Black
includes topical songs that are about "promoting a political agenda".
But she was playing Las Vegas, which seems to be a very distant place
from folk music. That seems to be the real issue here.
Michael
Nigel Stapley
> "Matt Duane Griffin" <deed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:40FFF95E...@earthlink.net...
>
>>Has everyone here heard that Linda R. was unceremoniously dumped on the
>>street in front of the Alladin Hotel in Las Vegas after dedicating the
>>song "Desperado" to Michael Moore during her encore? Is this a sign
>>that singers should never voice an opinion in ostensibly public but
>>actually privately owned space?
>>
>>Personally, I think the first amendment is in real trouble these days.
>
>
> The hotel management was well within their rights to jettison her.
Especially if they don't mind looking like a bunch of pricks. Not only
did they have her "escorted" from the room, but they wouldn't even let
her go back to her hotel room.
>If no
> one in the audience complained then nothing would have happened, but
> according to witnesses and hotel management many people did.
So, let's see if I've got this right : all it needs to justify silencing
someone is for a few pissed-off Republicans to whine about it?
>This isn't a
> first amendment issue - it's everyday folks showing up for entertainment and
> getting a sermon, so naturally they're pissed and let the management know
> about it.
"Everyday folks", eh? I don't know about Vegas, but I'm not at all sure
that sheet-metal workers from Pittsburgh (or equivalent) go there all
that often.
It wasn't a *sermon*, FFS. All Ronstadt did was dedicate a song to
Michael Moore and say that people should see the movie.
The response of the whiners was not merely to complain to the management
; they shouted, tore down posters and threw their cocktail glasses
(presumably empty). That's not a statement of complaint - it's the
behaviour of a bunch of spoiled 9-year-olds who'd missed their Ritalin
doses.
>
> Personally, I think that performers using their notoriety to foster
> political agendas is despicable.
"Despicable"? *Really* as bad as that? There are few things worse in the
world than a performer expressing a view about something? You really
should get out more.
If Ronstadt had dedicated a song to, say, Charlton Heston, saying about
what a great American he was and that everyone should see "Ben Hur",
would you think *that* "despicable"? Just asking.
>Remember the Dixie Chicks? I'm STILL
> waiting for Alec Baldwin to make good on his promise and get the hell off
> American soil.
>
American culture and public life have suffered hugely as a result of
McCarthyism. I see that some people want to repeat the experience. If
America is to be what America *can* be, then they must not be allowed to
succeed by default. I note with some relief that the people who are
buying the Aladdin have condemned the current management and said that
they would be happy to re-engage Ronstadt once they've taken over.
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
<reply-to will bounce>
RB
> > Personally, I think that performers using their notoriety to foster
> > political agendas is despicable.
Nice to see that rednecks enjoy folk music, too.
Zipless
taken offstage. She says there was no "riot," only a few boos from the
audience. I have a tendency to believe her more than Fox News...
"Matt Duane Griffin" <deed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40FFF95E...@earthlink.net...
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <2madibF...@uni-berlin.de>, "William Morris"
<news.remove.th...@seamlyne.com> wrote:
Okay, so tell me something; What's a hardcore flag-waving redneck like
yourself doing in a folk music group, when everyone knows that the American
folk music world has not only harbored dissenters, leftists, and liberals
for decades, but has also, thankfully, enthusiastically provided them with a
vehicle to voice that dissent and "foster political agendas" since at least
the days of Woody Guthrie? Don't you feel uncomfortable in this company?
Aren't you worried your Bushite buddies will find out you've been consorting
with potential subversives, and might report you to the FBI under the terms
of the Patriot Act? With attitudes like yours, wouldn't you be much more
comfortable at alt.fan.wayne-newton?
>
David Rintoul
-------------
Aladdin expels Ronstadt after political remarks
By Jerry Fink
LAS VEGAS SUN
Aladdin President Bill Timmins ordered security guards to escort pop diva
Linda Ronstadt off the property following a concert Saturday night during
which she expressed support for controversial documentary filmmaker Michael
Moore.
Timmins, who was among the almost 5,000 fans in the audience at the Aladdin
Theatre for the Performing Arts, had Ronstadt escorted to her tour bus and
her belongings from her hotel room sent to her. Timmins also sent word to
Ronstadt that she was no longer welcome at the property for future
performances, according Aladdin spokeswoman Tyri Squyres.
How much weight that carries is debatable, since the bankrupt Aladdin is in
the process of being sold to a group headed by Planet Hollywood
International Inc. Chairman and Chief Executive Robert Earl.
Near the close of her performance, Ronstadt dedicated the Eagles hit
"Desperado" to Moore, producer of "Fahrenheit 9/11," and the room erupted
into equal parts boos and cheers.
She said Moore "is someone who cares about this country deeply and is trying
to help."
Ronstadt has been making the dedication at each of her engagements since she
began a national tour earlier this summer, but it has never sparked such a
reaction.
Hundreds of angry fans streamed from the theater as Ronstadt sang. Some of
them reportedly defaced posters of her in the lobby, writing comments and
tossing drinks on her pictures.
Timmins told Las Vegas Sun gossip columnist Timothy McDarrah: "We live in a
city where people come from all over the world to be entertained. We hired
Ms. Ronstadt as an entertainer, not as a political activist.
"Whether you are politically on the left or on the right is not the point.
She went up in front of the stage and just let it out. This was not the
correct forum for that."
Timmins said she was wrong to bring her politics to the stage.
"Our first and only priority is the enjoyment of our customers," he said. "I
made the decision to ask Miss Ronstadt to leave the hotel. A situation like
that can easily turn ugly and I didn't want anything more to come out of it.
There were a lot of angry people there after she started talking.
"If she wants to talk about her views to a newspaper or in a magazine
article, she is free to do so. But in a stage in front of four and a half
thousand people is not the place for it."
Squyres said half the audience walked out, an estimate that might have been
high. But the number was substantial, nevertheless.
"The hotel's policy is that we hired her to entertain guests, not to express
her political views," Squyres said.
According to Squyres, the 58-year-old singer did not create a scene as she
was escorted out of the hotel and to her tour bus.
"She wasn't happy, but she was cooperative," Squyres said.
Attempts to reach Ronstadt and her manager were unsuccessful Sunday and this
morning.
Squyres said a number of ticket holders had asked for their money back after
an article appeared in a local newspaper last week quoting her making
disparaging remarks about Las Vegas.
"She said Vegas isn't the best place to perform anyway," Squyres said.
Other fans asked for their money back shortly after the Saturday night show
got underway, when Ronstadt informed the audience that ads publicizing the
concert were incorrect. The advertisements called it her "Greatest Hits
Tour."
Ronstadt started the evening with her 1983 hit "What's New?" and then set
her fans straight about what they might expect during the concert.
"In case you are wondering what I'm going to do," she said, "Driving into
town I saw this big billboard up there with my picture on it saying 'The
Greatest Hits Tour.'
"That was news to us. We didn't know it was 'The Greatest Hits Tour.' "
Squyres said Ronstadt was wrong.
"Her management gave us the information and approved the ad," she said.
According to Squyres, Ronstadt lopped off about 20 minutes from the show,
walking away from an encore portion of the concert, which I attended as the
reviewer for the Sun.
The incident capped a generally lackluster, unenthusiastic performance by
one of the top singers of the '70s and '80s.
The Baltimore Symphony Orchestra opened the concert. The highlight of the
30-minute segment was a rendition of George Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue,"
featuring pianist Terrance Wilson.
Ronstadt began with several songs from the 1920s, '30s and '40s she and
arranger Nelson Riddle recorded, among them "Bewitched, Bothered and
Bewildered," "Someone to Watch Over Me" and "Straighten Up and Fly Right."
She performed Cole Porter's "Get Out of Town," Frank Loesser's "Never Will I
Marry" and jazz great Billy Strayhorn's "Lush Life."
And then she gave fans some of what they came for, several of her hits from
the '70s and '80s, including "Just One Look" (1979), "Ooh Baby, Baby" (1978)
and "Somewhere Out There" (1987).
Although she still has that powerful, distinctive voice, Ronstadt was merely
going through the motions.
The only song she had trouble with was "Blue Bayou." She stumbled over the
lyrics, seemed to gasp for breath at one point and ended the song in
Spanish, screaming the words rather than singing them.
Her performance was uninspired and generally flat. She lacked stage
presence, doing little more than sleepwalk from song to song.
The fiasco at the end was the most exciting part of the show.
--
David Rintoul
http://www.soundclick.com/paperrockscissors
"Songwriting is like fishing in a stream. You put in your line and hope you
catch something."
Arlo Guthrie
LarryLarry2003
choices. Thankfully her singing is (or at least was) better than her choice in
movies and people.
LarryLarry2003
Matt Duane Griffin
looks like but doesn't sound like part of the article.
Linda Ronstadt has had an interesting career over the last 20 or so
years, since she stopped singing pop to do the Nelson Riddle things and
then the Canciones, and doing a recording of a Philip Glass piece,
producing Aaron Neville, etc., etc. She also has a real diva reputation
-- sometimes very difficult to work with, from what I hear. I suppose
she just needs to challenge and be challenged.
I think it's too bad that in this day and age people get their shorts in
a twist over an opinion being expressed, but OTO the consequences of
expressing an opinion are that sometimes you piss people off. I think
any artist should be both brave enough to do it and willing to face the
consequences. It's funny that she got so much guff back in the late
seventies and early eighties for being middle of the road. Since that
time she's been very eclectic in her choices of material and fearless in
her relationship with her audience. I always thought she was more of a
pure artist than people gave her credit for.
David Rintoul wrote:
<snip>
Matt Duane Griffin
In other words, flip them burgers and stop yer jawin', Ronstadt!
David Rintoul
> looks like but doesn't sound like part of the article.
Nope, nothing was added to, or removed from, the article just the way it was
written. I would never dis Linda like that.
David Rintoul
Sun, here is the latest development...a little notoriety...a little
publicity...these things have a way of working themselves out on their
own...and best of all, she has the support of the Raelians!!!
------------
Prospective Aladdin buyer would invite Ronstadt back
By Dan Kulin
<d...@lasvegassun.com>
LAS VEGAS SUN
If the prospective new owners of the Aladdin have their way, Linda Ronstadt
will soon be back at the Strip resort -- with controversial filmmaker
Michael Moore in tow.
Ronstadt was booted from the property after she dedicated a song to Moore
and praised his movie "Fahrenheit 9/11" at her Saturday night concert at the
Aladdin, prompting some audience members to walk out and ask for their money
back.
On Wednesday, Planet Hollywood Chairman and Chief Executive Robert Earl, a
partner in the group that won the right to buy the Aladdin in bankruptcy
court, said that, if his group takes over the Aladdin, "we would like to
offer the use of the Theatre of Performing Arts to Linda Ronstadt for a
second concert and further to take Michael Moore up on his offer to join her
on stage to introduce her and sing a song."
Earl's Planet Hollywood group is awaiting Nevada Gaming Commission approval
for the purchase, which Earl said could come as early as Sept. 1. The sale
would give the Aladdin a very different management philosophy regarding
performances at the resort, he said.
"We respect artists' creativity and support their rights to express
themselves," Earl said. "We were very sorry to hear about the unfortunate
circumstances of this past Saturday night and want to make it clear that
Planet Hollywood has never, in our 13-year history, restricted any artist's
right to free speech and we will continue with that policy once we take
ownership."
Peter Keps, senior vice president of Princeton Entertainment, producer for
Ronstadt's shows, including the recent Aladdin gig, said this morning he
"wasn't aware of anything" regarding Earl's offer and could not comment on
it at this time. Keps said Ronstadt was on tour and could not immediately be
reached.
Attempts this morning to reach Ronstadt's spokeswoman Kelly Bronowich at
Susan Blond Inc. in New York were not successful.
Irving Azoff, legendary manager of groups including the Eagles and a friend
of Ronstadt's, said that while he couldn't say for sure whether Ronstadt
would accept Earl's offer, "it would not surprise me if Linda, Michael Moore
and many of their friends got together for some sort of a benefit concert
there."
Ken Sunshine, a spokesman for Moore, said Moore would be delighted to join
Ronstadt on the Aladdin stage.
"I can tell you that Michael Moore would be thrilled to take Mr. Earl up on
his offer. Michael will do anything he can to support Linda Ronstadt, a true
American patriot," Sunshine said.
Moore criticized Aladdin President Bill Timmins in a letter posted on
Moore's Web site Monday. Moore said throwing out Ronstadt was "simply stupid
and un-American."
"Invite her back and I'll join her in singing 'America the Beautiful' on
your stage," Moore wrote. "Then I will show 'Fahrenheit 9/11' free of charge
to all your guests and anyone else in Las Vegas who wants to see it."
Ronstadt caused a stir when she dedicated her encore song, "Desperado," to
Moore, whose film "Fahrenheit 9/11" has been criticized by conservatives and
lauded by liberals. Ronstadt's dedication drew some boos and some of the
audience walked out and marred posters for the concert as they left.
Timmins, who was among the almost 5,000 fans at the concert, had security
guards escort Ronstadt to her tour bus and had her belongings brought down
from her hotel room after the concert.
The hotel president also sent word that Ronstadt was no longer welcome at
the hotel for future performances.
Timmins said he was concerned about customer satisfaction and safety.
"A situation like that can easily turn ugly and I didn't want anything more
to come out of it," Timmins said the day after the event. "There were a lot
of angry people there after she started talking.
"If she wants to talk about her views to a newspaper or in a magazine
article, she is free to do so. But on a stage in front of four and a half
thousand people is not the place for it."
Azoff said he was "appalled" by what happened to Ronstadt.
"So I called my other friend Robert Earl to say, 'Who is this guy, and I
hope he doesn't work for you,' " Azoff said.
"This is a freedom-of-speech issue. This is an American issue," Azoff said,
adding that he has never heard of anything similar happening to another
singer.
Aladdin spokeswoman Tyri Squyres said the company had no comment on Earl's
offer to Ronstadt and Moore.
Timmins and Ronstadt each have received support from different segments of
the public. The oddest result of the controversy so far has been that the
Raelians, a group whose religion revolves around beliefs about
extraterrestrials and cloning, named Ronstadt an honorary priest or guide, a
title that previously has been bestowed upon celebrities such as Moore,
Madonna, Sinead O'Connor and George Michael.
The church says it awards the honorary title to "those who point out the
lies of those claiming to 'protect us,' their hypocrisies and insane
fascination with violence."
Sun reporter Ed Koch contributed to this story
--------------
--
David Rintoul
http://www.soundclick.com/paperrockscissors
"Songwriting is like fishing in a stream. You put in your line and hope you
catch something."
Arlo Guthrie
"David Rintoul" <david....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:...
Cathy Cowette
"Michael Black" <et...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:cdp17h$dqh$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Absolutely! The early '60s folk revolution comes to mind. That political
agenda sure spawned some great music.
Personally, I'd like to see it happen with the present day generation. I
know there are a few artist around who write about the state of the world,
but the majority of present day artists don't seem to have a clue.
Cathy
http://www.cathycowette.com
RB
"G. M. Watson" <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> wrote:
> With attitudes like yours, wouldn't you be much more
> comfortable at alt.fan.wayne-newton?
Quote Of The Week!! Good one !!
RB
"Cathy Cowette" <ca...@cathycowette.com> wrote:
> Personally, I'd like to see it happen with the present day generation. I
> know there are a few artist around who write about the state of the world,
> but the majority of present day artists don't seem to have a clue.
Wow, where are you doing your listening, AM radio?
Or maybe all the young dissenting American artists are afraid to be
heard at home. They certainly don't hold back when they come to Canada.
Cathy Cowette
"RB" <vw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vwram-7F713C....@news.telus.net...
I'm talking about top 40 stuff played in the USA.
Cathy
http://www.cathycowette.com
Paul Bramscher
> "Matt Duane Griffin" <deed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:40FFF95E...@earthlink.net...
>
>>Has everyone here heard that Linda R. was unceremoniously dumped on the
>>street in front of the Alladin Hotel in Las Vegas after dedicating the
>>song "Desperado" to Michael Moore during her encore? Is this a sign
>>that singers should never voice an opinion in ostensibly public but
>>actually privately owned space?
>>
>>Personally, I think the first amendment is in real trouble these days.
>
>
> The hotel management was well within their rights to jettison her. If no
> one in the audience complained then nothing would have happened, but
> according to witnesses and hotel management many people did. This isn't a
> first amendment issue - it's everyday folks showing up for entertainment and
> getting a sermon, so naturally they're pissed and let the management know
> about it.
Sermon? Entertainers have been in the business of making social
commentary for centuries. It is only the nadir of human history when
personalities lose their job, career or worse when making their voices
heard.
This was worse than a First Ammendment issue -- members of the audience
themselves were unable to civily accept dissenting opinion. Throwing
things and ripping down posters in the lobby is decidedly un-American,
contrary to what this country stands for. It's worse than burning the
flag -- a flag is a mere symbol. But ripping down someone's photos,
throwing things and causing them to get expelled from their work is a
very real assault on American ideals -- a real burning.
> Personally, I think that performers using their notoriety to foster
> political agendas is despicable. Remember the Dixie Chicks? I'm STILL
> waiting for Alec Baldwin to make good on his promise and get the hell off
> American soil.
Only in oppressive regimes, perhaps during the Inquisition and most
likely under the Taliban have performers had to worry about censoring
themselves or their opinions.
Think very carefully about what you're wishing for here. You may not
like what you get. Stalin, Hitler, and McCarthy weren't known for
letting artists express themselves either. Is this really what we wish
to return to?
It was mentioned The Nation magazine that Muhammed Ali refused to fight
in the Vietnam war, made public commentary and had his title stripped
away. More recently Carlos Delgado and Steve Nash have faced criticism
or worse for their statements. What IS this country coming to?
Paul Bramscher
Sounds like something Limbaugh said -- there's one problem. Singers
sing lyrics. Lyrics have content. Content speaks about the human
experience, feelings, and often controversial topics.
So if she sung her anti-war opinions it would have been okay? And
musicians should never preface any of their songs or speak in a
non-sing-song voice to their audiences? I'm not sure I get your meaning.
cdRoots
>> political agendas is despicable. Remember the Dixie Chicks? I'm STILL
>> waiting for Alec Baldwin to make good on his promise and get the hell off
>> American soil.
I assume you also mean performers like Jesse Ventura, Ronald Reagan,
Arnold S., Rush Limbaugh, Al Franken, all those country singers singing
about how great the war is as well as folkies singing about how bad the
war is? Who gets to choose who has to "shut up?" Thankfully, with a
first amendment, NO ONE gets to choose who should shut up.
There was a great peice on the radio today about the most uncivil
political year in US political history, in the guest historian's opinion
(sorry, I can't remember her name now).
She described a giant graffiti painting on the wall of a large building
in Boston in 1800. It stated, for people to see for miles around:
"Damn John Jay.
Damn those who do not damn John Jay.
Damn those who do not light candle in the window
and spend the night damning John Jay."
THAT's freedom, baby........................
For more than 200 years, that's what it has meant.
God help us if it doesn't continue to mean that.
cliff
Who Me
>themselves were unable to civily accept dissenting opinion.
EH, WHAT??!!?? You're saying the audience is LESS entitled to express
themselves than Linda is!!! But, I'll bet you don't SEE that . . .
Bill
"Now I've always been the kind of person that doesn't like to trespass but
sometimes you just find yourself over the line."
"I don't have any regrets, they can talk about me plenty when I'm gone."
Who Me
Yes. People paid to hear her SING.
JesiAna
choices. Thankfully her singing is (or at least was) better than her choice in
movies and people.
>>
Many artists express political opinions, both through what they say and what
they choose to sing. I can think of half a dozen people off the top of my head
who do so. In the folk venue, they include the likes of Pete Seeger, Utah
Phillips, Tom Paxton and Eric Bogle. I am not as familiar with country singers,
but certainly some of them express in their songs and in what they say an
opposing viewpoint.
Art is by its very nature often political and even subversive in nature, and so
it should be.
Jesiana
"And if you stop to listen, they're playing for you and I
And their music sings along the strings, between the earth and the sky."
----Colum Sands
JesiAna
musicians should never preface any of their songs or speak in a
non-sing-song voice to their audiences? I'm not sure I get your meaning.
Many performers dedicate pieces to others; she dedicated a song to Mr Moore. I
heard a Dubliner's concert wherein they dedicated a song to Michael Flatley,
for example. What's the big deal?
Who Me
>so
>it should be.
wtf does fatass moore have to do with Rondstadt's art??
Who Me
>I
>heard a Dubliner's concert wherein they dedicated a song to Michael Flatley,
>for example. What's the big deal?
The big deal is that moore is a lyin' weasel.
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <20040722204854...@mb-m04.aol.com>,
larryla...@aol.com (LarryLarry2003) wrote:
If she'd come out wrapped in the flag and had urged the audience to re-elect
Bush, guys like you and the other whiny rednecks in this thread would be
lining up to (metaphorically, I hope) kiss her ass. Considering that a
number of big-name country singers have shamelessly boosted their career
since 9/11 by loudly taking a hooray-for-war stance in both the media-- and
at their gigs-- to the bellowing approval of their bloodthirsty,
beer-bellied fans-- it once again becomes gruesomely clear just how much you
righties hold the patent on rank hypocrisy.
David Rintoul
the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be
reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws
must protect, and to violate which would be oppression."
Thomas Jefferson
Harold Groot
>> She was hired to sing, not critique films and explicitly voice political
>>choices. Thankfully her singing is (or at least was) better than her choice in
>>movies and people.
>Many artists express political opinions, both through what they say and what
>they choose to sing. I can think of half a dozen people off the top of my head
>who do so. In the folk venue, they include the likes of Pete Seeger, Utah
>Phillips, Tom Paxton and Eric Bogle. I am not as familiar with country singers,
>but certainly some of them express in their songs and in what they say an
>opposing viewpoint.
>
>Art is by its very nature often political and even subversive in nature, and so
>it should be.
>Jesiana
With the artists you mention, the general level of political content
is usually well known ahead of time. With Linda this was apparently
something new, just as with the Dixie Chicks a while back it had been
something new. OK, now hiring managers know better.
That being said, I get a bit puzzled by people on both sides of these
things. It's not a matter of Freedom of Speech. People are not being
hauled off to jail because of what they said. People are free to say
unpopular things. But other people are just as free to react to those
things. Some of the letters crying about freedom of speech apparently
believe that no one should be allowed to be unhappy at anything you
say, no matter how unpopular it might be. That's not how Free Speech
works. But there shouldn't be violence either. Boo them, fine. Ask
for a refund, sure you can ask. Boycott their records, your option.
Don't hire them again, no problem. Actually throwing things and
destroying property is stepping past the line.
I think Linda chose poorly to make her dedication in that venue. I
think the crowd in turn overreacted. Given the disturbance that was
happening I have a fair amount of sympathy for the management in their
decision to escort her from the premises. The letter-writers who
don't want to allow people to react negatively to what they hear -
well, their logic does not seem to resemble our Earth logic. (Not that
all of Linda's supporters have been so one sided - but I've read
several letters from people who are.)
In a way it reminds me of the controversy a while back regarding
federal grants to artists who were producing what many people believed
to be pornography. There is a great deal of difference between
actively censoring someone and merely declining to subsidize them.
Linda is free to rent a hall and offer her views at whatever length
she chooses. Neither she nor her fans should expect people who do not
share those views to subsidize her. Up until now she has been booked
as a "singer", now she will be booked as a "singer and social
commentator". People who do not want to hear her social commentary
won't buy her tickets and albums. I don't see our society being
shaken or Freedom Of Speech disappearing. Much ado about nothing.
David Rintoul
usually well known ahead of time. With Linda this was apparently
----------
Well, no, according to the Las Vegas Sun, "Ronstadt has been making the
dedication at each of her engagements since she
began a national tour earlier this summer, but it has never sparked such a
fans knew much about her, they would know that she is a liberal leftist.
She used to date Governor Jerry Brown back in the day. Apparently, Jerry
didn't marry here because she would be too controversial as first lady,
which would spoil any chance for the presidency. So, this hasn't exactly
come out of nowhere.
----------
, just as with the Dixie Chicks a while back it had been something new. OK,
now hiring managers know better.
Well now, that's true, they know that hiring the Dixie Chicks will guarantee
them a million dollar gate. According to Rolling Stone, the Dixie Chicks
are now the 4th richest musical act in the world. Only the Eagles, Bruce
Springsteen and the Rolling Stones are richer. As a result of the boycott
in the United States, they grossed at least one million dollars on every one
of their 65 North American tour dates and their "Home" album ended up going
platinum six times. They could never have bought the publicity the
boycotters gave them for nothing.
These self appointed boycotters don't represent the artist's fans, they just
claim they do.
I believe that every audience gets stuck with a certain bonehead quotient.
It seems like this Vegas audience was a just a little over quota for
whatever reason. Bad night at the roulette tables? Too may comp beers in
the casino? This too shall pass. This is the best thing that could have
happened to Linda's career. When was the last time she had this kind of
attention?
What the whole mess really seems to show is how divided and tense America is
right now. That's the scary part.
Stephen L. Suffet
>
> Absolutely! The early '60s folk revolution comes to mind. That political
> agenda sure spawned some great music.
> Personally, I'd like to see it happen with the present day generation. I
> know there are a few artist around who write about the state of the world,
> but the majority of present day artists don't seem to have a clue.
A majority of present day artists clueless?
How about David Rovics, almost always at or near the #1 position on the
SoundClick acoustic-folk charts? And Charlie King? Kristen Lems? Jamie
Anderson? Pat Humphries and Sandy Opatow? (Their "Swimming to the Other Side"
was #1 on Amazon.com for a few days.) Joel Landy? Karen Brooks? Fred Stanton?
Tom Nielson? David Lippman? Spook Handy? Joe Jencks? Si Kahn? Luci Murphy?
Sharleen Leahey? Kim and Reggie Harris? Jon Fromer? Francisco Herrera? Randy
Harris? Ben Silver? Anne Feeney and Chris Chandler? Sonia Rutstein? Heather
Lev? Eric Levine? (He publishes "Topside," the modern CD equivalent to the old
"Broadside" magazine.) Bev Grant and the Brooklyn Women's Chorus?
I could go on. If you haven't heard much of these musicians it is neither
because they lack the talent nor the effort. It is because they have been
frozen out by the mainstream broadcast media. You'll have to tune into
Pacifica, NPR, or college stations to hear them on the radio. Or else you'll
find them on public access cable TV. Otherwise, look for them at political
rallies, coffee houses, college campus pubs, libraries, union sponsored
educational and cultural programs, and a handful of the festivals that welcome
political music (more often on the women's music circuit than on the folk
festival circuit).
At the same time there are a few "left overs" from an earlier time, but still
alive and kicking: Faith Petric, Pete Seeger, Peggy Seeger, Tom Paxton, Utah
Phillips, Matt Jones.
--- Steve
Who Me
>righties hold the patent on rank hypocrisy.
>
you based that conclusion on an ASSumption, Skippy.
LarryLarry2003
<<If she'd come out wrapped in the flag and had urged the audience to re-elect
Bush, guys like you and the other whiny rednecks in this thread would be
lining up to (metaphorically, I hope) kiss her ass.>>
reviews, and I am proud to be a redneck.
<<Considering that a number of big-name country singers have shamelessly
boosted their career since 9/11 by loudly taking a hooray-for-war stance in
both the media-- and at their gigs-- to the bellowing approval of their
bloodthirsty, beer-bellied fans-- it once again becomes gruesomely clear just
how much you righties hold the patent on rank hypocrisy.>>
You make many assumptions based on stereotyping and prejudice. I don't drink
beer, I have no beer belly, and I am not blood thirsty. I am also not a big
supporter of Bush. I dislike Michael Moore more than Bush though long before
F9/11.
cdRoots
> Wrong. I would be there for music and not political discussions and moive
> reviews, and I am proud to be a redneck.
But given the civil tone of your reply here, I can't imagine you would
have thrown chairs, or beer, or torn up the lobby of the nighclub
because you disagreed with her movie reviews or politics, or condoned
others who did so? My guess is you would made a verbal affirmation of
your disapproval, maybe walked out, even demanded your money back from
the club owner, right? That's your right as a free-SPEAKING citizen.
I think people have the right, on stage or off, to make their opinions
known. That's what free folks do. I disagree with a lot of country
artists about politics. I'd vocally express my displeasure if one of
them made a comment about how great the war is or what a great leader
GWB is, from the stage. But I doubt I would demand that they shut up, or
toss a chair, or start a fight. Toby Keith and Willie Nelson can have
their say any old time, and so can L.R., I think. It's not just free
speech, it's common courtesy to let people have their say.
And there's never TOO MUCH free speech, I think.
The more we're talking and sqawking, the less likely we are to be
killing each other.
cliff
David Rintoul
People paid to hear her SING
---------
Well, now, could she dance--without singing, that is? Could she read out an
ant-war poem? Could she act out a scene from an anti-war play? If she was
at a festival and said, "It looks like rain out there", would she be in
trouble for doing weather forecasts instead of singing? Could she do a
magic trick? Or does she just have to shut up and sing...ummm...is it okay
if she opens her mouth just a little bit while she's actually singing?
I don't think it's a good idea for audiences to expect artists to do just
exactly what they're supposed to do. Creative artists aren't very good at
that. Uncreative artists aren't very good at much of anything.
Jon-Jon
the film. I hear many people who make comments like yours and pass judgement
without ever having viewed the film.
Peace,
Jon-Jon
" Who Me" <bkaw...@aol.coma> wrote in message
news:20040725034151...@mb-m17.aol.com...
Jon-Jon
like Ms. Rondtadts dedication they could have booed her or walked out.
Instead they crossed the line and threw glasses and tour down posters in the
lobby. It sounds to me a rowdy audience was the problem far more than Linda
Ronstadt expressing the fact that she thinks Michael Moore is a great
American.
I attempted to call Mr. Timmins after the incident. I was asked if this was
concerning the ouster of Linda Ronstadt and given this e-mail address.
reservationaladdincasino.com. I doubt he will ever read them but I sent an
e-mail anyway.
Peace,
Jon-Jon
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <20040725134049...@mb-m22.aol.com>, bkaw...@aol.coma
( Who Me) wrote:
>>- it once again becomes gruesomely clear just how much you
>>righties hold the patent on rank hypocrisy.
>>
>
>
> you based that conclusion on an ASSumption, Skippy.
>
Does the phrase "already vast and constantly growing amount of empirical
evidence" convey anything to you?
Ken Sternberg
What Commies they must be!
Matt Duane Griffin
> The big deal is that moore is a lyin' weasel.
>
Dude didn't lie about a thing. Every word in that movie was carefully
verified. In other words...
IT"S ALL TRUE!!!
--Matt Duane Griffin
Matt Duane Griffin
Who Me wrote:
> >
> EH, WHAT??!!?? You're saying the audience is LESS entitled to express
> themselves than Linda is!!! But, I'll bet you don't SEE that . . .
>
> Bill
>
Linda didn't destroy anybody's property. Those goons in the audience
throwing and smashing things were not exercising their rights as free
citizens of a free country, they were commiting vandalism.
Harold Groot
<david....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> With the artists you mention, the general level of political content is
>usually well known ahead of time. With Linda this was apparently
>> something new...
>----------
>Well, no, according to the Las Vegas Sun, "Ronstadt has been making the
>dedication at each of her engagements since she
>began a national tour earlier this summer, but it has never sparked such a
>reaction." Political activism is nothing new for Linda Ronstadt, If her
>fans knew much about her, they would know that she is a liberal leftist.
>She used to date Governor Jerry Brown back in the day. Apparently, Jerry
>didn't marry here because she would be too controversial as first lady,
>which would spoil any chance for the presidency. So, this hasn't exactly
>come out of nowhere.
The booking of the Vegas gig likely would have happened before any of
those "earlier on the same tour" dedications, so I guess the question
would be "How much did she do her political stuff onstage at gigs
prior to the booking?" I've never been to one of her concerts, so I
don't know. If she regularly brought it onstage then the hiring
manager may have fallen down on the job - it's his job to know what
his audiences will like/dislike and what the performers are expected
to bring to the stage. Of course, it's always possible that that
particular crowd was not typical for his hotel.
Is her tour schedule up on the web? I should take a look. It might
be interesting to check the locations of those other dates. If she
made those previous dedications in liberal areas I wouldn't expect to
see a negative reaction. Or if she made the dedication in a
conservative area before a significant number of people knew what the
film contained I again wouldn't expect to see much of a reaction.
David Rintoul
"I'll damn well say what I please, as I always have," she says. "And if they
cancel my show, they'll just be doing me a favor. They'll still have to pay
me, and I could use a day off. I have no idea how ticket sales are going,
and I never worry about record sales."
You can get the whole story here...
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/072104ronsdadt.html
And her tour dates are listed here (scroll down a bit when you get there)
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/072104ronsdadt.html
You have a point, Harold, most of the stops prior to Vegas were in
north-eastern cities or California, so the audiences may have had a liberal
bias. Vegas is hard to categorize because the audiences there are all
tourists from other places. That's all part of the...ummm...gamble I guess
you could say.
See what I mean about notoriety? How else would her tour dates get posted
here? The more people slag her, the better this tour is going to go for
her.
David Rintoul
http://www.ronstadt-linda.com/
And there's news from the next stop on the tour...
"Ronstadt sang to a full-house Tuesday night at Universal Amphitheatre in
Los Angeles, and the crowd reserved its longest and loudest ovation for her
endorsement of Moore's film, the Los Angeles Times reported yesterday."
Who Me
>exactly what they're supposed to do. Creative artists aren't very good at
>that. Uncreative artists aren't very good at much of anything.
She's not an ""artist."" She's a goddamn singer.
Who Me
>lobby.
you were there? you KNOW this to be fact??
Who Me
>In response to your comment Moore is a lyin' weasel. Have you actually seen
>the film.
lamest damn argument in the world! Ever hit yourself in the head with a hammer?
Then how do you know iy hurts?? In fact, it's even more lame than that. If I
don't approve of the lying weasel, why shouls I give him any of my money, AND
one more number at the boxx office!!??!! your logic jst plain sucks!
Who Me
>>>righties hold the patent on rank hypocrisy.
>>>
>>
>>
>> you based that conclusion on an ASSumption, Skippy.
>>
>Does the phrase "already vast and constantly growing amount of empirical
>evidence" convey anything to you?
>
in this conext, it coveys to me what an asshole you are . .
Who Me
>verified. In other words...
>
>IT"S ALL TRUE!!!
>
wow. you are dangerously cretinous.
Jon-Jon
Just because you cannot give any logic for you view is no reason to resort
to name calling. I can respect someone with a different viewpoint but
personal attacks make me lose respect.
" Who Me" <bkaw...@aol.coma> wrote in message
news:20040725204607...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Jon-Jon
not respond to you again since I feel you are just being a troll.
" Who Me" <bkaw...@aol.coma> wrote in message
news:20040725204525...@mb-m03.aol.com...
David Rintoul
"Artist/artiste(n): A professional performer, especially a singer or
dancer."
"Bigot(n): An obstinate and intolerant believer in a political theory,
religion, etc. Unreasonably prejudiced and intolerant."
Oxford English Dictionary
Matt Duane Griffin
> wow. you are dangerously cretinous.
>
> Bill
wow. you are gratuitously insulting. and an absolute powerhouse of
factless bluster. I stand by what I say. You ain't said nothin' yet.
I will answer no more contentless posts from you, Bill.
Matt Duane Griffin
Who Me wrote:
> lamest damn argument in the world! Ever hit yourself in the head with a hammer?
> Then how do you know iy hurts??
I actually have hit myself in the head with a hammer. Kinda liked it.
Did it again. Harder. Didn't like that so much. But a light tapping
on the side of the head with a hammer can feel kinda good...
Once again,
IT'S ALL TRUE!!!
Who Me
>not respond to you again since I feel you are just being a troll.
""THE MEDIA"" also reported vandalism at the Wihite House by Clinton staffers
before they left, and that turned out to be greatly exaggerated, didn't it?!?
Who Me
>
>IT'S ALL TRUE!!!
It may all be ACTUAL, but damn little of it is TRUE. Learn the difference,
Skippy.
JesiAna
She's not an ""artist."" She's a goddamn singer. >>
And as a singer, is a musical artist, a person who performs the art of singing.
And yes, good singing IS an art and a craft. Of course, if you're a lousy
singer, it's just lousy singing. But Ms. Ronstadt is not a lousy singer, she's
a pretty good one. I don't always like her choice of material, but I cannot
deny her artistry and ability.
Jesiana
"And if you stop to listen, they're playing for you and I
And their music sings along the strings, between the earth and the sky."
----Colum Sands
JesiAna
Thoroughgoing nonsense. A person can dedicate a piece of art to anyone he/she
wishes, regardless of your opinion about that person. The point really isn't
whether or not Moore was an 'appropriate' choice in the opinions of some
members of the audience. The point is that she is entitled to dedicate a song
to whomever she likes.
If Alan Jackson dedicated a song to John Ashcroft, would you be whining? I
would think Jackson a fool for admiring Ashcroft, but I wouldn't deny him the
right to make an idiot of himself.
JesiAna
before they left, and that turned out to be greatly exaggerated, didn't it?!?
>>
No. It turned out to be a complete fabrication. In other words, a lie.
Who Me
>staffers
>before they left, and that turned out to be greatly exaggerated, didn't it?!?
>>>
>
>
>No. It turned out to be a complete fabrication. In other words, a lie.
>Jesiana
Yet you continue to trust "THE MEDIA" . . .
David Rintoul
Well, now, you don't trust Michael Moore. You've never met the man, and you
haven't been to see his film. (It's a brilliant film, by the way, I highly
recommend it.)
And, yet, you're of the opinion that he's a "lying weasel. " How did you
arrive at that opinion? How do you even know who Michael Moore is? I'd
have to guess that it would be through the media. I'm also inclined to
suppose that someone in the media told you that Michael Moore's film was
full of lies. And that can only meant that you formed your opinion of the
film based on what that person in the media said.
How about watching the film and thinking for yourself? Try it, you'll like
it!
Cathy Cowette
"Stephen L. Suffet" <Suf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4103E3D4...@worldnet.att.net...
> Cathy Cowette wrote:
>
> >
> > Absolutely! The early '60s folk revolution comes to mind. That political
> > agenda sure spawned some great music.
> > Personally, I'd like to see it happen with the present day generation. I
> > know there are a few artist around who write about the state of the
world,
> > but the majority of present day artists don't seem to have a clue.
>
> A majority of present day artists clueless?
>
> How about David Rovics, almost always at or near the #1 position on the
> SoundClick acoustic-folk charts? And Charlie King? Kristen Lems? Jamie
> Anderson? Pat Humphries and Sandy Opatow? (Their "Swimming to the Other
Side"
> was #1 on Amazon.com for a few days.) Joel Landy? Karen Brooks? Fred
Stanton?
> Tom Nielson? David Lippman? Spook Handy? Joe Jencks? Si Kahn? Luci Murphy?
> Sharleen Leahey? Kim and Reggie Harris? Jon Fromer? Francisco Herrera?
Randy
> Harris? Ben Silver? Anne Feeney and Chris Chandler? Sonia Rutstein?
Heather
> Lev? Eric Levine? (He publishes "Topside," the modern CD equivalent to the
old
> "Broadside" magazine.) Bev Grant and the Brooklyn Women's Chorus?
>
> I could go on. If you haven't heard much of these musicians it is neither
> because they lack the talent nor the effort. It is because they have been
> frozen out by the mainstream broadcast media. You'll have to tune into
> Pacifica, NPR, or college stations to hear them on the radio. Or else
you'll
> find them on public access cable TV. Otherwise, look for them at political
> rallies, coffee houses, college campus pubs, libraries, union sponsored
> educational and cultural programs, and a handful of the festivals that
welcome
> political music (more often on the women's music circuit than on the folk
> festival circuit).
>
> At the same time there are a few "left overs" from an earlier time, but
still
> alive and kicking: Faith Petric, Pete Seeger, Peggy Seeger, Tom Paxton,
Utah
> Phillips, Matt Jones.
>
> --- Steve
>
Ask any kid on the street if he's heard of the people listed above, and the
majority will say no. Most kids are tuned into top 40 Billboard hits, and
sorry to say, other than the left overs, I don't think anyone in your list
has had a top 40 hit, and the majority of young listeners don't go to
Soundclick for their music.
Cathy
http://www.cathycowette.com
David Rintoul
(to the tune of Reuben Ramso)
Lyrics © David Rintoul 2004
Oh, poor old Linda Ronstadt,
Ronstadt, boys, Ronstadt,
Oh, poor old Linda Ronstadt,
Ronstadt me boys, Ronstadt.
Linda Ronstadt was a singer,
Ronstadt boys, Ronstadt,
And a liberal left winger
Ronstadt, me boys, Ronstadt.
When her fans cried out for encores
Ronstadt, boys, Ronstadt,
She promoted her friend Michael Moore
Ronstadt me boys, Ronstadt
Then she went down to Las Vegas
Ronstadt, boys, Ronstadt,
A place well known for being tasteless
Ronstadt, me boys, Ronstadt.
They booed, they hissed, they trashed a hallway
Ronstadt, boys, Ronstadt
At least that's what some of the papers say
Ronstadt, me boys, Ronstadt.
She did not mind their crass stupidity
Ronstadt, boys, Ronstadt,
She knew that it was free publicity
Ronstadt me boys, Ronstadt
Now, where all the paparazzi go,
Ronstadt, boys, Ronstadt,
She's the hottest ticket on the go.
Ronstadt, me boys, Ronstadt.
Oh, poor old Linda Ronstadt,
Ronstadt, boys, Ronstadt,
Oh, poor old Linda Ronstadt,
Ronstadt me boys, Ronstadt.
Who Me
>arrive at that opinion?
I can READ
David Rintoul
--------------
So...are you saying that you've read any of Michael Moore's books?
JesiAna
Yet you continue to trust "THE MEDIA" . >>
Not I, lad, not I! I accept something at face value when it comes from a
variety of dependable sources. Sometimes, even that is not enough, and it is
proven incorrect. I am not so stuck on myself that I cannot accept that and
say, "Oops...they fooled me this time." Can you say the same?
Gerry Myerson
jes...@aol.com (JesiAna) wrote:
> "And if you stop to listen, they're playing for you and I
> And their music sings along the strings, between the earth and the sky."
> ----Colum Sands
For you and I? Surely not - has to be "for you and me."
"And if you stop to listen, they're playing for you and me
And their music sings along the strings, between the dog and the flea."
There, now - much better, don't you think so?
--
Gerry Myerson (ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai) (i -> u for email)
Jim Thomson
Your poetry may be grammatically correct but it has no soul.
"Gerry Myerson" <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote in message
news:gerry-72062C....@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au...
JesiAna
Yes, Mr Sands' lyric is grammatically incorrect. However, in the context of the
song, which is beautiful and uplifting, I am willing to forgive him this
transgression, as I forgave it in Woody Guthrie's songs when he sang, "I
followed my footsteps to the streets of the city, was a great big sign there
said 'no trespasssing.' But on the other side, it didn't say nothin.' This land
was made for you and me."
It really ought to say, "it didn't say anything," don't you think?
And shouldn't Rosalie Sorrells have written, "I'm not going to tell her what I
did to you," instead of "I ain't goin' to tell her what I done to you"?
In all seriousness, and I know you're being facetious, I forgive the
grammatical misuse when it is in the context of a gem of a lyric that expresses
an important (or just amusing) idea.
Jesiana
Nigel Stapley
> In article <20040728040033...@mb-m11.aol.com>,
> jes...@aol.com (JesiAna) wrote:
>
>
>>"And if you stop to listen, they're playing for you and I
>>And their music sings along the strings, between the earth and the sky."
>>----Colum Sands
>
>
> For you and I? Surely not - has to be "for you and me."
>
> "And if you stop to listen, they're playing for you and me
> And their music sings along the strings, between the dog and the flea."
>
> There, now - much better, don't you think so?
>
Only if the strings are on a banjo you're trying to tune... ;-)
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
<reply-to will bounce>
j...@unspameljefe.net
wrote:
> Who gets to choose who has to "shut up?" Thankfully, with a
>first amendment, NO ONE gets to choose who should shut up.
Er, you must be forgetting Bill O'Reilly. ;)
Jef
(take out the papers and "unspam")