What about Anti-folk?
gyrryllaguy
the folk scene, especially from younger musicians with strong
interests in folk music. Musicians like Michelle Shocked, Ani di
Franco (current crop) to the Pogues and Phil Ochs from previous
generations.
The East Village Anti-Folk movement began as a backlash to the
negativism encountered by young people gravitating to the West
Village/Folk City scene in NYC. But it does seem to be happening
(albeit on a very small scale) throughout the folk scene.
Whether these young musicians label it folk-punk or anti-folk, what do
people here think about this new(er) trend among young musicians with
an interest in folk music, but little to no patience with what they
perceive as the old school folk scene's sneering status quo?
Guy
David Kilpatrick
gyryl...@volcanomail.com wrote on 5/3/02 4:24 PM:
> Whether these young musicians label it folk-punk or anti-folk, what do
> people here think about this new(er) trend among young musicians with
> an interest in folk music, but little to no patience with what they
> perceive as the old school folk scene's sneering status quo?
>
What worries me about younger musicians is the exact opposite. If they are
anywhere near the folk scene to start with they are often sprogs of
folk/muso parents and have been trained from nappy stage to play awesomely
well on traditional instruments. They are totally into traditional folk (but
rarely into song unless female - see below) and blow away their parents'
generation by the time they are late teens. Then they do music at
uni/college and broaden their horizons but don't lost the grounding.
Just what is this 'sneering status quo'? Frankly, I find it affects OLDER
folkies more than young ones. The very old and the very young get off
lightly compared to 30-40-50 somethings. Even get welcomed! It happens at
our own club, it's not a conscious process; we have our own set of regulars,
we do what we do, and if another bunch of guys (or just one guy) a bit like
us and doing the same stuff arrives, we're on our guard! But if a kid who
plays fiddle well turns up, quite different. We all shut up and want to hear
it. Same if they are doing sort of indie guitar songs; may not be folk, but
we will listen willingly. Same if an elderly gent sitting in the corner
appears to perk up for some old song - first thing we do is ask 'do you do
any yourself?'. Sometimes you get a remarkable and memorable result.
I've never, ever found folk clubs to be sneering. Elitist maybe. But there
is always another club round the corner. When I was 18 I would never have
dared go to Sheffield and risk getting slaughtered by Mr Capstick's humour
for looking, dressing and sounding wrong in a world of inverse
folk-snobbery. But Stan Crowther in Rotherham made his club friendly to all
would-be performers. I've never forgotten that and try to take the same
attitude myself. When we moved to Scotland I found that folk-snobbery just
didn't exist, presumably because the 'folk' heritage was common to all
classes and freely extended to all non-Scots who professed any interest.
And also to any young musicians.
Is it so very different elsewhere now? I would hate to think that England,
for example, still had the same 'if you weren't born here don't join in this
chorus' attitude which was around 30 years ago.
David
Macromed5
>negativism encountered by young people gravitating to the West
>Village/Folk City scene in NYC.
Let me make sure I'm on the same page here... the "folk" thing began as a
reaction against overly-commercial pop music, then there was a backlash against
that, and now there's an "anti-folk" backlash to the backlash to the
backlash... am I on-track here, or did I miss a reaction somewhere along the
way? ;-)
Regards,
John Dowdell
gyrryllaguy
and began in the 80s in NYC's East Village. I'm not sure if there is a
genuine anti-folk or punk folk scene in Britain. Though Billy Bragg's
PR often describes him as anti-folk.
The movement in the US has since spread across the country, but I
would guess conventional older folkies likely won't have heard of it.
The sneering part comes from attitudes towards young people performing
music their "folk elders" deemed "not folk."
An example of such sneering can be commonly observed in uk.music.folk
amongst those who refer to non-British acoustic musicians as "snigger
snogwriters" etc. That is exactly the negative attitude which
alienates so many young people who come on to the conventional folk
scene to have a look in, after hearing someone like Phil Ochs.
Guy
ban...@cix.compulink.co.uk
> An example of such sneering can be commonly observed in
> uk.music.folk
> amongst those who refer to non-British acoustic musicians as
> "snigger
> snogwriters" etc. That is exactly the negative attitude which
> alienates so many young people who come on to the conventional folk
> scene to have a look in, after hearing someone like Phil Ochs.
I really would suggest you actually read that thread on uk.music.folk
before commenting.
`Snigger/snogwriter' is an ironic term coined to define the type of
songwriting that has, as it's fundamental tenet, `oh woe is me I must
examine the fluff in my navel even more closely than in the last song
I sang for I have not got laid yet again'. And as for this defining
non-British artists, the doyen of the genre is most often seen to be
the late Nick Drake, as wimpy-Brit as they come.
David Kilpatrick
ban...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote on 6/3/02 9:13 AM:
And as for this defining
> non-British artists, the doyen of the genre is most often seen to be
> the late Nick Drake, as wimpy-Brit as they come.
I've read through all of Drake's words trying to find the connection.
Generally they appear to be funny, whimsical, sometimes nostalgic, sometimes
just conversations or like letters to a friend. He may comes over as
introspective and interview and filmclips do give the impression, but the
actual songs seem more influenced by beat poetry and psychedelia than by
navel-examining.
Strikes me that 'Greensleeves' qualifies more as not-got-laid woe-is-me
navel examining!
David
bogus address
> I'm talking about the movement/response to negative attitudes found
> on the folk scene, especially from younger musicians with strong
> interests in folk music. Musicians like Michelle Shocked, Ani di
> Franco (current crop) to the Pogues and Phil Ochs from previous
> generations.
>
> The East Village Anti-Folk movement began as a backlash to the
> negativism encountered by young people gravitating to the West
> Village/Folk City scene in NYC. But it does seem to be happening
> (albeit on a very small scale) throughout the folk scene.
It is not at all easy to work out who or what you're talking about
through such mangled syntax. Are you accusing Ani di Franco of some
sort of Spice Girls faked-up generational revolt (not bloody likely
given that, to use your language, she's the babe who made Utah Phillips
cool) or that a younger generation of performers who nobody outside
this New York district has ever heard of is seeing her as an oppressive
presence to revolt against?
The Pogues were about the most instantly and uncontroversially successful
UK folk act of the last generation. They were well on track to become a
Lovable National Institution, MBEs in the post, before McGowan blew it.
Ochs is not much more than a name to me, but from the number of people
I've seen drop that name in appreciative terms it doesn't seem like he
got a notably rough ride from other folkies.
Ani di Franco is her mid-30s, I think, and Michelle Shocked must be in
her mid-40s by now. "Current crop"?
> Whether these young musicians label it folk-punk or anti-folk, what do
> people here think about this new(er) trend among young musicians with
> an interest in folk music, but little to no patience with what they
> perceive as the old school folk scene's sneering status quo?
Perhaps there is no such trend?
The pop industry needs to categorize performers by generation so they
can create new brands. No other kind of music has that problem; the
record industry tried it with classical music (Nigel Kennedy, Vanessa-Mae)
and it didn't work well enough to become a continuing practice. History
might have been different if either Kennedy or Vanessa-Mae had actually
been any good, but neither had the ability to deliver what the record
industry needed for a long-term successful brand, the way Whitney
Houston and Placido Domingo have.
There have always been political and aesthetic divisions within folk
music, but people were calling Bob Dylan and Cat Stevens opportunistic
bozos long before either had any grey hairs and long before either of
them signed up to stupid religions. Now we get to call them old wrinkly
opportunistic bozos with silly ideologies to boot; it's always handy
to have another insult to throw at somebody you don't like, but don't
fool yourself that their age has got anything fundamental to do with it
(though it is rather enjoyable to point out the spider veins on blokes
who once tried "buy my records cos I'm young and good-looking").
> I'm not sure if there is a genuine anti-folk or punk folk scene in
> Britain. Though Billy Bragg's PR often describes him as anti-folk.
The only thing distinctive about Bragg is that he's unusually focused on
political material to the exclusion of anything else (even Dick Gaughan,
politically some way to the left of Bragg, does a wider range of stuff).
I've seen Bragg sharing a stage with performers of several generations
all of whom would be quite happy to consider themselves folkies.
A bit more specificity might help; the rest of the world does *not* view
New York as the centre of the musical universe, and so it's up to you to
explain these parish-pump references. The other regular NYC poster here
is Stephen Suffet. Do you have a problem with the way Steve runs his show,
and if so, what?
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
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gyrryllaguy
> In article <1222cd3f.02030...@posting.google.com>,
> gyryl...@volcanomail.com (gyrryllaguy) wrote:
>
> > An example of such sneering can be commonly observed in
> > uk.music.folk amongst those who refer to non-British acoustic musicians as
> > "snigger snogwriters" etc. That is exactly the negative attitude which
> > alienates so many young people who come on to the conventional folk
> > scene to have a look in, after hearing someone like Phil Ochs.
>
> I really would suggest you actually read that thread on uk.music.folk
> before commenting.
>
> `Snigger/snogwriter' is an ironic term
Because some people claim it is ironic (is the inference here that if
it is ironic, it must be a good thing?), doesn't mean young people
perceive the use of the term as less sneering, cynical, or mean
spirited--their perception is just the opposite, in fact. Which,
according to my contemporaries with interests in folk music, is
precisely what drives them away from the conventional folk scene.
This generation is very fed up with the cynicism, bitterness, and
ironic melancholy of older folkies. We have a very different view of
life and the world, as well as what the music is about. That doesn't
mean that irony isn't used by us, it is used often and to good effect
(Mouldy Peaches are a good example of it). But it is used in a much
less cynical and mean spirited fashion.
While I agree there are a few young people coming on to the
conventional folk scene, there aren't really very many in the US
gravitating to it. The same doesn't seem to be holding as true for
some other kinds of ethnic folk here, though. For instance, many
young people love Eastern European folk, popular, and art music.
Eastern European musicians don't seem so snobbish about the
relationship between music genres in their cultures, and seem more
welcoming of young people doing their own musical thing while learning
their folk music. They seem genuinely thrilled when young people
gravitate to them to learn the music for any reason.
Whereas on the Anglo folk scene, older folk musicians just seem really
jaded and snobbish about the mixing of music genres, and get really
ugly about it. Especially regarding financially successful women
singers, like Loreena McKennit or Ani di Franco. So the perception of
young women and men both, is that the conventional folk scene is
pretty sexist, and generationally, we really aren't into that kind of
thing. Not that sexism doesn't exist in our generation--but we do
really look at women as being just as capable and deserving of respect
musically as men. The same really can't be said about our parent's
generation.
Our generation is truly a global music generation. We will never
learn the music in the way our ancestors did, because the world has
changed so much. We are exposed to so many more music influences, and
are technically much better trained than our ancestors were. We
really can learn to play several different genres of music well,
rather than just one. Some of our folk elders see this as youthful
arrogance, when it really isn't. It is just a fact of life for us.
Guy
Kirsten Chevalier
> This generation is very fed up with the cynicism, bitterness, and
> ironic melancholy of older folkies. We have a very different view of
> life and the world, as well as what the music is about. That doesn't
> mean that irony isn't used by us, it is used often and to good effect
> (Mouldy Peaches are a good example of it). But it is used in a much
> less cynical and mean spirited fashion.
First of all, I suppose you must be using "this generation" to mean
"twentysomethings living in English-speaking countries". You've talked to all
of us? You know what all of us are fed up with and what our view of life and
the world is? Wow. Pretty impressive.
This particular twentysomething American, on the other hand, is not
particularly fed up with older folkies. I'm used to being one of the only
people between 12 and 35 at folk shows, and I don't particularly mind, given
the musical preferences of most people my age. If I'm fed up with anything,
it's the cynical, bitter way in which music gets marketed (mainly to people
about my age) as a commodity no different from sneakers and soda. Folk music,
and its fans -- even though they're mostly older than me -- are a refuge from
that.
"Maybe I was born a little late... or much too soon." Hugh Blumenfeld's line
applies to a lot of folk fans, both old and young, and therefore, you can't
make generalizations like this. If you do, you're going to get called on it.
--
Kirsten Chevalier * krNO...@cIHATESPAMs.ber-SPAMMERS-MUST-DIE-keley.EDU
Often in error, never in doubt
"I'm getting further from the things I thought I knew, but I'm getting closer
to the truth."--Trout Fishing in America http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~krc/
ban...@cix.compulink.co.uk
> This generation is very fed up with the cynicism, bitterness, and
> ironic melancholy of older folkies. We have a very different view
> of
> life and the world, as well as what the music is about. That
> doesn't
> mean that irony isn't used by us, it is used often and to good
> effect
> (Mouldy Peaches are a good example of it). But it is used in a much
> less cynical and mean spirited fashion.
>
I'm intrigued. I find myself in agreement with much of what you have
posted here, and could - in the realm of reasoned debate - readily
argue some detailed points. But I get the impression you are damning
everyone deemed `old' (and probably Brit) as cynical, bitter and
melancholic. It's a bit of a sweeping, catch-all judgement, isn't it?
>
> Whereas on the Anglo folk scene, older folk musicians just seem
> really
> jaded and snobbish about the mixing of music genres, and get really
> ugly about it. Especially regarding financially successful women
> singers, like Loreena McKennit or Ani di Franco. So the perception
> of
> young women and men both, is that the conventional folk scene is
> pretty sexist, and generationally, we really aren't into that kind
> of
> thing. Not that sexism doesn't exist in our generation--but we do
> really look at women as being just as capable and deserving of
> respect
> musically as men. The same really can't be said about our parent's
> generation.
>
Can you name names as to who `got ugly' about mixing genres? I'd
certainly love to know because what you describe here doesn't actually
map on to my experience. There is quite a bit of mix and match going
on and if Mr Anderson was here I'm sure he'd bring forth an instant
list of Brit folkies mixing with musicians of many cultures. The
latest issue of fRoots for example, has an interview with Roger
Watson, once seen as a quintessential trad English folkie of
impeccable pedigree, and his band Boka Halat (which includes musicians
from Africa, India and South America).
As for the sexism, as you admit even the younger generation can be a
bit sexist despite trying not to be. The tradition is littered with
some very sexist songs - they are a product of their time - but the
most common approach is to not sing them.
As for the financial success or otherwise, particularly women's
success, I've not seen anyone being cynical or nasty about the likes
of Kate Rusby or Eliza Carthy. But then again, what does perhaps raise
some anger is if people perceive an artist to have `sold out' to gain
mass market success. But I suspect that would hold true for any genre
of music - jazz, country or whatever.
And as for the issue of lack of respect for women musicians I really
have to say that I think you are well wide of the mark.
> Our generation is truly a global music generation. We will never
> learn the music in the way our ancestors did, because the world has
> changed so much. We are exposed to so many more music influences,
> and
> are technically much better trained than our ancestors were. We
> really can learn to play several different genres of music well,
> rather than just one. Some of our folk elders see this as youthful
> arrogance, when it really isn't. It is just a fact of life for us.
>
absolutely, and the results can be wonderful, ranging from the likes
of Afro Celt Sound System through to the last E2K album and on to Pete
Morton's Trespass album, where he sings trad songs as though he's
fronting Deep Purple. You're absolutely right, it will never be the
same, and long may it continue to grow and develop. I can imagine a
time, 50 years from now perhaps, when some kid will be saying I want
to use this old, traditional instrument, the Yamaha DX7 synth. And a
goodly number of such developments are occurring in the UK and some of
them involve musicians well the high side of 40 mixing with others
much younger. I don't know where you've got your impression of old
folkies but I wouldn't necessarily say it is too close to the reality.
Chris Rogers
on political material to the exclusion of anything else (even Dick
Gaughan, politically some way to the left of Bragg, does a wider range
of stuff). I've seen Bragg sharing a stage with performers of several
generations all of whom would be quite happy to consider themselves
folkies."
Sorry, but I can't let you away with that one - Billy Bragg's best
songs are usually his love songs, "The Saturday Boy", "St. Swithin's
Day" and "The Man in the Iron Mask" to name but 3. Personally, this
whole pigeon-holing of music is getting a bit tiresome. I'm Welsh,
write and perform my own material, together with some covers and
traditional songs, using acoustic instruments and usually play in
Scottish folk clubs - does that make me "celtic", a
"singer-songwriter", an "acoustic performer", a "folk singer", or just
someone who wants to perform and, (very) occasionally, get paid for
doing so? Answers on a post card please.
Chris Rogers;
www.ngcb.u-net.com/chris.htm
ban...@cix.compulink.co.uk
lib...@ngcb.u-net.com (Chris Rogers) wrote:
> Personally, this
> whole pigeon-holing of music is getting a bit tiresome. I'm Welsh,
> write and perform my own material, together with some covers and
> traditional songs, using acoustic instruments and usually play in
> Scottish folk clubs - does that make me "celtic", a
> "singer-songwriter", an "acoustic performer", a "folk singer", or
> just
> someone who wants to perform and, (very) occasionally, get paid for
> doing so? Answers on a post card please.
Agree entirely. Not Welsh, and never sung in a Scottish folk club, but
otherwise most of that also maps on to me and, probably, thousands of
others. Anti-folk, celtic folk, left-footed presbyterian folk with
added cynicism, aged English folk with beards........who gives a damn.
If it's good it's good.
Matt Griffin
singer-songwriter from NYC in the late eighties named Roger Manning.
There were probably others who identified with it, and at times
(especially when I first started hanging around open mikes) I have been
able to identify with an insurrectionist attitude towards the "folk
scene", but as time has gone by, a couple of things have occurred to me.
1.) Folk is about community. It's not something that gets reinvented
every time someone new & interesting comes along, the way rock always has
been. community comes from continuity, and the "old folkies" you rail
against were young turks in an old scene once, too.
2.) The urge to dissent is *not* in and of itself, a noble motive.
Sometimes the old way of doing things is the right way. Wisdom most
often takes time. If you have no patience, develop some, or you won't be
around long. And guess what? The old school folk scene will be around
after you're gone, with young fresh faces taking their place alongside
the older ones. Kate Rusby and Eliza Carthy have been mentioned in this
thread, let's add Dave Carter & Tracy Grammer, Gillian Welch & David
Rowlings, Slaid Cleaves, Tanya Savory, Mark Erelli, and any number of
other excellent newer artists who can look back at their forebears and
fellow respecters of tradition (though they write their own songs) as
guideposts along the way to continuing down the road towards the future
of the music.
It's a big river, you should get in your boat and row. IT's OK to have
your own way of looking at things and your own voice. It's actually kind
of essential. but it's not necessary of even a particularly good idea to
try to overthrow some mythical power structure. the way to get power in
folk music is to develop a following. The way to develop a following is
to have something to offer and to be a friendly, welcoming, supportive
person. Make people want to be around when you do what you do. If you
can do that, and if having done that, the idea of the folk community is
still important to you, then you can influence things in a positive way.
Sitting here in a usenet group picking fights with other folk fans is no
way to accomplish anything...
Estron
> It happens at our own club, it's not a conscious process; we have our
> own set of regulars, we do what we do, and if another bunch of guys
> (or just one guy) a bit like us and doing the same stuff arrives, we're
> on our guard!
I remember one night I was watching a performer who, at one point, told
the audience, "Now here's a song I'll bet nobody here has ever heard
of," whereupon he launched into "I'm My Own Grandpa." Well, it just so
happens that's one of my favorites, and I took his statement as a
challenge, and so I sang harmony from the first row of tables. He was
on _his_ guard of me for the remainder of the evening.
Folk clubs? I wish Kansas City had some folk clubs. Coffeehouses that
occasionally have folkies perform are not the same.
--
All opinions expressed herein are only that.
Pax vobiscum.
est...@tfs.net
Kansas City, Missouri
Still_Slanted
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