Folk Music
El Coyote survives!
One thing that people ('folks') did when they got together, was play
and/or sing music. (That is, before the commercialization of music.
Now, this getting together very often is the *listening* to
pre-recorded music.)
In my older days ("I'm younger than that now"), I thought of folk
music as those songs handed down from generation to generation, whose
original authors were lost in the mists of time. These songs were not
written for money. They came from the daily lives of the people. I
still think that, but the concepts have become exceedingly muddied.
Were the Carter Family 'folk' singers? Woody Guthrie? Mississippi
John Hurt? Hank Williams? Joan Baez? Phil Ochs? If you sang old
folk songs, but also wrote your own in a similar style and sold them
to a recording company, were you still a 'folk singer'? If you wrote
music that came from your own soul (not from Tin Pan Alley), was that
folk music (Bobby Dylan)?
Why do we need a definition for 'folk music'? The term was probably
invented when a distinction between methodically composed music (Bach,
Stravinsky) and the 'traditional' forms of music was deemed necessary.
Originally, there was just music. And originally, the music probably
was not perceived as being distinct from daily life, from religious
ritual, from preparing for the hunt. We are a society that craves to
categorize every nook and cranny of life.
The way I see it now, 'folk' music is a musical form of carrying the
myths of a society. And myths are the structure of beliefs upon which
a society is built. If Joe PowerAmp writes a song that has no roots
in 'traditional' music and uses instruments that could not possibly be
played in 16th-century England because they rely on electrical power
stations, yet the music strikes to the soul of America by
incorporating America's myths, then Joe has written a folk song -
especially if other Americans get together and sing that song around
the campfire (with or without the electric bass). Authorship has no
significance (after all, does authorship of the 'Grey Silky of Sule
Skerry' have any significance when we have no idea who the author
was?). Neither does originality (*somebody* invented the very first
ballad). Neither does the musical form (who can nail down what the
folk music 'form' is?). Neither does the fact that young Joe gets
hundreds of thousands of dollars in royalties for his song. The key
is Carrying the Myths.
--
Gotta make your own rules, child.
Gotta break your own chains. [KK]
-- Lonesome Coyote survives!
McKim
In article <5f9d31$3s...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, nach...@facstaff.wisc.edu
says...
>
>One thing that people ('folks') did when they got together, was play
>and/or sing music. (That is, before the commercialization of music.
>Now, this getting together very often is the *listening* to
>pre-recorded music.)
>
>myths of a society. And myths are the structure of beliefs upon which
>a society is built. If Joe PowerAmp writes a song that has no roots
>in 'traditional' music and uses instruments that could not possibly be
>played in 16th-century England because they rely on electrical power
>stations, yet the music strikes to the soul of America by
>incorporating America's myths, then Joe has written a folk song -
>especially if other Americans get together and sing that song around
>the campfire (with or without the electric bass). Authorship has no
>significance (after all, does authorship of the 'Grey Silky of Sule
>Skerry' have any significance when we have no idea who the author
>was?). Neither does originality (*somebody* invented the very first
>ballad). Neither does the musical form (who can nail down what the
>folk music 'form' is?). Neither does the fact that young Joe gets
>hundreds of thousands of dollars in royalties for his song. The key
>is Carrying the Myths.
>
>
to unite people under the structure of belief. The key word is "unite
people." If myth can't unite people, myth lost its meaning and it won't
pass down to generations, and the culture will be died. The myth also
brings peace and cosmos to people. A culure of losing its myth will be
fell into chaos and confusion. One such culture is USA where its
myth is lost.
Peter Wilton
In article <5fev7q$3jk$1...@news3.microserve.net>, McKim
<Mc...@dxnet.com> writes
>Myth is the most powerful force in any culture. Myth is need in order
> to unite people under the structure of belief. The key word is "unite
> people." If myth can't unite people, myth lost its meaning and it won't
> pass down to generations, and the culture will be died. The myth also
> brings peace and cosmos to people. A culure of losing its myth will be
> fell into chaos and confusion. One such culture is USA where its
> myth is lost.
Would analysing out of the existence the concept of "folk" music be part
of the process of losing the myth? ;-)
--
Peter Wilton
The Gregorian Association Web Page:
http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk/chant.htm
El Coyote survives!
Mc...@dxnet.com (McKim) wrote:
>In article <5f9d31$3s...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, nach...@facstaff.wisc.edu
>says...
>>
>>
> Myth is the most powerful force in any culture. Myth is need in order
> to unite people under the structure of belief. The key word is "unite
> people." If myth can't unite people, myth lost its meaning and it won't
> pass down to generations, and the culture will be died. The myth also
> brings peace and cosmos to people. A culure of losing its myth will be
> fell into chaos and confusion. One such culture is USA where its
> myth is lost.
I agree with your statements about myth. But even Americans, who seem
so rootless now, so given up to short-term acquisitions and junkyard
religions, *do* have their myths. I believe that humans cannot live
without myths. Unfortunately, Americans (and other Westerners and, to
some extent, many other peoples of the world) have forgotten the old
myths, replacing them with myths that are bloodless or even
destructive. The ubiquitous wearing of corporate logos on t-shirts;
marvelling at the wonders of PBS Nature while ripping apart the real
Nature; the revering of athletes and entertainers to the point where
their lives are models for the rest of us. These *are* part of our
mythic culture. Which is why I'd have to say that rap is, basically,
folk music. So are some of the rock 'anthems' (The Wall). People are
crying out for something to touch their core of being, and are
settling for Hollywood fantasies. Alas, Americans have lost their
souls and Mobil and Reebock and TNT are buying them up in a buyer's
market. Myths are no longer shared. They're copyrighted and sold,
and you better come up with the price if you want your myths. Ah, I'm
starting to rant. Thank you for your thoughts.
Your Name
A million thanks for your "definition" of folk music - carrying the
myths works wonderfully well. In an age of instant communication (the
global village,if you will), old definitions don't work too well & old
restrictions can't apply now. May I use it on stage, in class rooms,
etc.? I promise to attribute it to you. Thanks again, Beverlie
Robertson
Greg Bullough
In article <5fhovr$e...@gtnews.golden.org> Your Name <lo...@golden.org> writes:
>A million thanks for your "definition" of folk music - carrying the
>myths works wonderfully well. In an age of instant communication (the
>global village,if you will), old definitions don't work too well & old
Somewhat risky in classrooms, maybe even offensive.
Less so on stage, where you are preaching to the choir.
After all, who is a folk-musician to tell a bunch of young folks
that this somewhat arcane and relatively obscure branch of music is
the one to carry 'our' myths?
Perhaps 'traditional' (as distinct from folk) carries the myths of
our anscesters which we, to some extent, inherit.
But as a genre, 'folk music' strikes me as doing no better at mythologizing
the last fifty years than 'pop' music. Often far worse.
For example, when I climb on the restored Liberty Ship 'SS Jeremiah O'Brien'
I am greeted with Dorsey Brothers and Benny Goodman music piped through the
ship's PA, which lends its own sound. That music conveys the mythological
nature of the merchant mariners and armed guards who served aboard her in
the early forties one hell of a lot better than the few folks songs I've
heard about the service. Certainly that's not 'folk music.' At best, it
has become somewhat so.
Look at the TV series 'Happy Days,' in which the music of the 50's
was woven through every moment of this coming-of-age spinoff of
'American Grafitti.' Again, not folk music. Folkies at the time were
actually sort of fuddy-duddies, as we are now.
When I think of my coming-of-age time, I don't think of Peter, Paul, &
Mary, though given my choice I listened to them a lot more than 'pop'
music. I think of what was in the jukebox in the cafeteria in high-school:
Starland Vocal Band, Seals & Crofts, America, Kansas, Cat Stevens.
Ziggy Stardust, Elton John at 'Yellow Brick Road' time, etc. Pink
Floyd, Led Zep...
And even some stuff I didn't like but which has become engrained, such
as 'Get It On' (the soul version, not the 'Bang A Gong'), 'Low Rider,'
and that infernal disco.
A lot of this still yanks at my personal myths when I hear it, and even
though I like it better, folk doesn't often do so except in a more
conscious way.
To me, Billy Joel (e.g.: 'Keepin' the Faith') and Bruce Springsteen (e.g.:
'My Home Town') have done a far better job of capturing the uniquely
white-male-American spirit in music than any 'folk' musician. So where
does that leave us?
So if you walk into a classroom of kids who listen to rap and hip-hop
and start spouting about how folk music is ever-so-much-better at relating
personal and societal myths than their 'own' music, you are running headlong
into a mess of quick-sand.
Far better, I think, to look at any generation's music IN GENERAL as part
of the mythos and the ethos of that generation, and to teach youngsters
to listen for that. Both in 'their' music and in their parents' and
grandparents'.
Folk music has a tendency to take itself far too seriously and to regard
itself as 'more equal' and more significant than other genres. This
leads to all sorts of pathological behaviors (e.g.: ludicrous attempts
to clean up the political and social sensibilities of very old songs).
Greg
Peter Wilton
In article <5fh2m5$o...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, El Coyote survives!
<nach...@facstaff.wisc.edu> writes
>Which is why I'd have to say that rap is, basically,
>folk music. So are some of the rock 'anthems' (The Wall). People are
>crying out for something to touch their core of being, and are
>settling for Hollywood fantasies. Alas, Americans have lost their
>souls and Mobil and Reebock and TNT are buying them up in a buyer's
>market. Myths are no longer shared. They're copyrighted and sold,
Then modern forms of music are also part of the problem. I was reading
ethnomusicologist J. Blacking's book on folksong collector/composer/
pianist Percy Grainger recently. According to Blacking, some
Ethnomusos/anthropologists have suggested that music started out as
THE form of human communication, so that (a) it is more fundamental
than verbal language, which developed from it, and (b) if that is its
function, then the point of it is to perform it as part of the social process,
not to become a "great" performer, adored from far, and not to buy plastic
discs with encoded musical sounds on them, as a mere consumer, as you
say, of "copyrighted" products.
McKim
In article <5fh2m5$o...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, nach...@facstaff.wisc.edu
says...
>
>Mc...@dxnet.com (McKim) wrote:
>>In article <5f9d31$3s...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, nach...@facstaff.wisc.edu
>>says...
>>>
>[snip my original msg]
>>>
>> Myth is the most powerful force in any culture. Myth is need in order
>> to unite people under the structure of belief. The key word is "unite
>> people." If myth can't unite people, myth lost its meaning and it won't
>> pass down to generations, and the culture will be died. The myth also
>> brings peace and cosmos to people. A culure of losing its myth will be
>> fell into chaos and confusion. One such culture is USA where its
>> myth is lost.
>
>I agree with your statements about myth. But even Americans, who seem
>so rootless now, so given up to short-term acquisitions and junkyard
>religions, *do* have their myths. I believe that humans cannot live
>without myths.
I do aware that Americans do have Myth. Their Myth are Frontier
and its ideological underspinnings are those same law of capitalism
of competition, economical theory of supply and demand, Darwinsim
theory of "survival of the fittest" and "Manifest Destiny."
These elements have been the building blocks of historical and
socio-political ideolgies of USA.
Unfortunately, Americans (and other Westerners and, to
>some extent, many other peoples of the world) have forgotten the old
>myths, replacing them with myths that are bloodless or even
>destructive.
The danger of America is its Myth are created in a fatal environment.
Its carries an extreme form of violence such example is a metaphor
of Cowboy and Indians. Applying their Myths of Manefest Destiney,
it's "Us and Them" mentality. For American frontiers, it was
either Indian or them by motivating great masses of people to
engage in bloody and protraced war.
The ubiquitous wearing of corporate logos on t-shirts;
>marvelling at the wonders of PBS Nature while ripping apart the real
>Nature; the revering of athletes and entertainers to the point where
>their lives are models for the rest of us.
Those PBS Nature series are sponsored by Multi-national Corp like
Mobile and GM. Unlike what most viewers perceive, what you seen in
those TV and actual reality of nature provokes a quite difference feeling.
Even Nature of Amazon Jungle looks so beautifue, when you actually in and
touch it and impossible to describe in a word. Again Americans believe
and worship athletes and entertainers, but they are no different than
average citizen.
These *are* part of our
>mythic culture. Which is why I'd have to say that rap is, basically,
>folk music.
Rap has been existed in some old culture. I do agree with that.
So are some of the rock 'anthems' (The Wall). People are
>crying out for something to touch their core of being, and are
>settling for Hollywood fantasies. Alas, Americans have lost their
>souls and Mobil and Reebock and TNT are buying them up in a buyer's
>market. Myths are no longer shared. They're copyrighted and sold,
>and you better come up with the price if you want your myths. Ah, I'm
>starting to rant. Thank you for your thoughts.
>
Indeed Myths no longer shared in American. This capitalism is about
"buy and sell" and making profit. In old culture or old days folks
engaged in "give and take" economic.
Thinking about we are all going to die someday but Americans Myth as you
and I said will move on. Thinking about how ironic that is!!!
PEOPLE DIE AND CULTURE MOVE ON...
And I thank you for your thoughts.
bizserve.com/euphonic/
>Mc...@dxnet.com (McKim) wrote:
>>In article <5f9d31$3s...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, nach...@facstaff.wisc.edu
>>says...
>>>
>[snip my original msg]
>>>
>> Myth is the most powerful force in any culture. Myth is need in order
>> to unite people under the structure of belief. The key word is "unite
>> people." If myth can't unite people, myth lost its meaning and it won't
>> pass down to generations, and the culture will be died. The myth also
>> brings peace and cosmos to people. A culure of losing its myth will be
>> fell into chaos and confusion. One such culture is USA where its
>> myth is lost.
>
>I agree with your statements about myth. But even Americans, who seem
>so rootless now, so given up to short-term acquisitions and junkyard
>religions, *do* have their myths. I believe that humans cannot live
>without myths. Unfortunately, Americans (and other Westerners and, to
>some extent, many other peoples of the world) have forgotten the old
>myths, replacing them with myths that are bloodless or even
>destructive. The ubiquitous wearing of corporate logos on t-shirts;
>marvelling at the wonders of PBS Nature while ripping apart the real
>Nature; the revering of athletes and entertainers to the point where
>their lives are models for the rest of us. These *are* part of our
>mythic culture. Which is why I'd have to say that rap is, basically,
>folk music. So are some of the rock 'anthems' (The Wall). People are
>crying out for something to touch their core of being, and are
>settling for Hollywood fantasies. Alas, Americans have lost their
>souls and Mobil and Reebock and TNT are buying them up in a buyer's
>market. Myths are no longer shared. They're copyrighted and sold,
>and you better come up with the price if you want your myths. Ah, I'm
>starting to rant. Thank you for your thoughts.
>
>--
>Gotta make your own rules, child.
>Gotta break your own chains. [KK]
>-- Lonesome Coyote survives!
>
Hey Coyote and screaming memes
You make some very remarkable observations. Why then would you go for
the myth thing? Myths carry only a bit of turth if any. Society has
been buried in myth since adam and eve. Wouldn't it be better to
speak and tell stories and songs of Truth instead? Folk is just a
common term for laypeople, not sophisticated, not mythical. Myth, mis,
dis, mist, only obscure what is inate in each of us. Thanks again for
your thought provoking comments. grateful poet
bizserve.com/euphonic/ or euph...@freeway.net
El Coyote survives!
Your Name <lo...@golden.org> wrote:
>A million thanks for your "definition" of folk music - carrying the
>myths works wonderfully well. In an age of instant communication (the
>global village,if you will), old definitions don't work too well & old
>restrictions can't apply now. May I use it on stage, in class rooms,
>etc.? I promise to attribute it to you. Thanks again, Beverlie
>Robertson
I wanted this to be a personal reply, but my email response bounced
back - 'User unknown' (lo...@golden.org).
Yes, you can use the words. I wish I had written them better. I just
did it off the top of my head, although the thoughts have been
churning for a long time. (As Dylan said, "The words fill my head and
they fall to the floor.") I feel that way about all art forms. The
real value is when a work reaches to the core of your being - carries
the societal myths into your personal life. (I.e., myth as the
fundamental beliefs, not the often-used 'fairy-tale' or 'cute story'
definition of myth that is popular today).
Anyway, best wishes.
rods...@aol.com
>I do aware that Americans do have Myth. Their Myth are Frontier
>and its ideological underspinnings are those same law of capitalism
>of competition, economical theory of supply and demand, Darwinsim
>theory of "survival of the fittest" and "Manifest Destiny."
>These elements have been the building blocks of historical and
>socio-political ideolgies of USA.
>
>The danger of America is its Myth are created in a fatal environment.
>Its carries an extreme form of violence such example is a metaphor
>of Cowboy and Indians. Applying their Myths of Manefest Destiney,
>it's "Us and Them" mentality. For American frontiers, it was
> either Indian or them by motivating great masses of people to
>engage in bloody and protraced war.
>
>Those PBS Nature series are sponsored by Multi-national Corp like
>Mobile and GM. Unlike what most viewers perceive, what you seen in
>those TV and actual reality of nature provokes a quite difference feeling.
>Even Nature of Amazon Jungle looks so beautifue, when you actually in and
>touch it and impossible to describe in a word. Again Americans believe
>and worship athletes and entertainers, but they are no different than
>average citizen.
>
>Rap has been existed in some old culture. I do agree with that.
>
>Indeed Myths no longer shared in American. This capitalism is about
> "buy and sell" and making profit. In old culture or old days folks
> engaged in "give and take" economic.
>
>Thinking about we are all going to die someday but Americans Myth as you
>and I said will move on. Thinking about how ironic that is!!!
>PEOPLE DIE AND CULTURE MOVE ON...
>And I thank you for your thoughts.
And just WHAT THE FUCK was that all about? Folk Music?
Rod
Abby Sale
On 9 Mar 1997 22:55:38 GMT, rods...@aol.com wrote:
>>I do aware that Americans do have Myth. Their Myth are Frontier
>
>And just WHAT THE FUCK was that all about? Folk Music?
>
I've no idea what it's about either, other than "something" about the
American Myth. However, occasional posts on 1st-cousin subjects to Folk
Music are "allowed" here. Folk _song_ (as opposed to music) obviously,
but also posts on legend, myth, folklore, customs, ethnomusicology, etc.
seem to be welcomed in moderation. I welcome them, anyway.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abby...@orlinter.com (That's in Orlando)
Greg Bullough
In article <33280653...@snews2.zippo.com> abby...@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) writes:
>On 9 Mar 1997 22:55:38 GMT, rods...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>>I do aware that Americans do have Myth. Their Myth are Frontier
>>
>>And just WHAT THE FUCK was that all about? Folk Music?
>>
>I've no idea what it's about either, other than "something" about the
>American Myth.
[Posted on behalf of Daffy Duck, whom the won't let near the machines
at Looney Tunes, for obvious reasons, not the least of which is that
all the slobber plays havoc with the keyboards:]
Onth a year, we altho have the 'Myth America' pageant in whith we take
each thtate'th myth and dreth her up fanthy and parade them all around on
a thtage. At the end, thome old fart thingth thomething which has almotht
become part of the folk tradition itthelf:
There thee ith
Myth America...
Thome people thinkth itth thekthitht.
Thankth a lot...
Daffy
Bob, Bonnie, or Sam
I don't know if this is the place to ask, but I am searching for
information about a song.
The song lyrics were in my grandmothers belongings. One day she
remembered the whole song and wrote it down. Her father would sing it to
her.
The title may be something like "That Old Brown Coat and Me"
It is about the fellow who is poor, but a good person being rejected for
a fellow who is a fancy dresser who ends up as a "pioret out on the deep
blue sea".
If anyone recognises this, has any informatin, or knows the music to it,
please let me know.
Thanks so much,
Bonnie