The Ash Grove in Welsh
Jon Berger
as "The Ash Grove", preferably with some sort of transliteration for
us Welsh-illiterates? (My apologies if this involves wearing out the
'd' and 'w' keys of your terminal.)
Also, I'd appreciate any opinions as to the origins of this little ditty.
Is it a twee art song that's gone feral, or is it a "real" (whatever that
is) folk song that's been adopted by the artistic community?
--
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Jon Berger jo...@ingres.com {mtxinu,sun,amdahl,pyramid}!ingres!jonb
"Gentlemen, I regret to inform you that we're all drawings." -- B. Kliban
Tim Walters
language would certainly be an improvement, an even better way of
avoiding insulin shock would be to sing the version that begins:
There was a Welsh miner
And he had a lovely daughter
And the hairs of her dickie-di-do
Hung down to her knee
A black one and a white one
And one with a little shite on
And one with a little light on
To show us the way
Does anyone out there know the rest?
--
Tim: wal...@metaphor.com
------------------------------------------
"NOW IS THE DISCOUNT OF OUR WINTER TENTS!"
(seen in a sporting goods store window)
Nur Iskandar Taib
I was lucky enough to buy a slightly broken Irish
harp for a very good price ($50, gloat gloat). Whats
wrong with it is that the bottom of the front column
(where it attaches to the bottom) is broken off. It
looks very repairable. I'll beef up the entire area
with wood.
The problem is the top joint has also come loose. Is
this joint supposed to be glued, or should it be left
unglued? The tension of the strings will keep it to-
gether, unlike the bottom joint.
The harp itself was made in Dublin (I forget the
maker). Its about 40 inches high, and the rest of it
is in perfect shape.
Fixing it might be easy, but learning to play it will
be something else 8-)
--
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Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NT...@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS !
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Geraint Jones
|-> Can anyone provide me with the Welsh words to the song we know, in English,
|-> as "The Ash Grove", preferably with some sort of transliteration for
|-> us Welsh-illiterates? (My apologies if this involves wearing out the
|-> 'd' and 'w' keys of your terminal.)
|->
|-> Also, I'd appreciate any opinions as to the origins of this little ditty.
|-> Is it a twee art song that's gone feral, or is it a "real" (whatever that
|-> is) folk song that's been adopted by the artistic community?
I'd venture that it is a mistake is to think of it as a `song'.
There's a melody (``Llwyn Onn'', the Ash Grove) and there are words
which I would guess are an originally English-language Victorian parlour
ballad. (Compare with -- say -- the Skye boat song, which is _very_
English and very Victorian, but uses an earlier melody from somewhere
like Lewis.)
The tune may well be older, but has certainly been adopted as a very
common counter-melody for cerdd dant (where the singer sets words to a melody
different from the counter melody played by the musician, usually a harpist).
Aren't all real folk songs just twee art songs that have gone feral? And is
cerdd dant `folk' for you? It's certainly `art' in Wales. Might not be
safe to call it `twee' though.
Many songs will be set against a particular counter-melody, and it is usual
to draw the counter melody from a small set of well-known ones. As such there
aren't any `the' words, although I wouldn't be surprised to find that there
is a well-known translation of the English words. (I don't think I know it
if there is, but maybe I can't remember it because I can't remember the
English.)
g
David H. West
Michael Koster
(English words to "The Ash Grove")
>I'd venture that it is a mistake is to think of it as a `song'.
>There's a melody (``Llwyn Onn'', the Ash Grove) and there are words
>which I would guess are an originally English-language Victorian parlour
>ballad. (Compare with -- say -- the Skye boat song, which is _very_
>English and very Victorian, but uses an earlier melody from somewhere
>like Lewis.)
Seems to me that most english words to "songs" of this nature are
Victorian in origin, as there was apparently a massive Celtic revival
around those times. Check out "Songs of the Hebrides" for some
sickening examples of this. To call this "Celtic music" may hint
at the origin of the tunes(melody), but I don't believe the words
have any connection to Celtic culture. Yes, even "Greensleeves".
In some circles even the music of, say Scott Skinner, is looked
upon as a Victorian perversion of what was once an indigenous
form e.g. the strathspey. Indeed, if one listens to the equivalent
from Cape Breton(unVictorified) a sense of what has happened begins
to emerge. (Would you like your tea with one lump or six?)
Having said all this, I suppose we should be happy that anything
at all has survived. Victorian society would not have been
interested in the "real" thing, as it would have been too "vulgar"
or at least unsuitable for the drawing-room, and it may have died
out almost entirely.
So, perhaps the best approach is to adapt the music again to today's
aesthetic and re-popularize. Or try to recover the faint far-off
echoes of a time-distant heritage rich in cultural expression.
Oh well...
Michael.
--
Michael Koster, mi...@ios.Convergent.COM
David H. West
>|-> Can anyone provide me with the Welsh words to the song we know, in English,
>|-> Also, I'd appreciate any opinions as to the origins of this little ditty.
>|-> Is it a twee art song that's gone feral, or is it a "real" (whatever that
>|-> is) folk song that's been adopted by the artistic community?
>
>I'd venture that it is a mistake is to think of it as a `song'.
>
>There's a melody (``Llwyn Onn'', the Ash Grove) and there are words
>which I would guess are an originally English-language Victorian parlour
>ballad.
Last year, looking for old Welsh harp tunes, I came across a large
(multi-volume) collection published in the Victorian era, and edited by
someone academically eminent (and, I believe, Welsh). On closer
inspection, it appeared that the melodies were indeed ancient (even
then), but that the editor had usually found it necessary to write his
own words (in both languages); this seems to imply that either there
were no traditional words or that they had been lost (or that he was a
philistine). The English words he supplied quite resembled Victorian
parlour ballads, but almost certainly never had a life of their own.
-David West d...@iti.org
Greg Bullough
>
>Having said all this, I suppose we should be happy that anything
>at all has survived. Victorian society would not have been
>interested in the "real" thing, as it would have been too "vulgar"
>or at least unsuitable for the drawing-room, and it may have died
>out almost entirely.
I wonder, then, how one rationalizes the Victorian era having
given us the "Gaelic Clubs," and a fellow by the name of O'Neill?
And having been a period of emigration which led to the sheltering
of much traditional music on foreign shores?
There is a tendency to paint the Victorian era with very broad
strokes; to see it as all lace curtains, "drawer-ing" rooms, and
"we are not amused." To do so is, I believe, a terrible mistake,
one which is easy to make if one gets ones history and cultural
anthropology from "Masterpiece Theatre." While "Victorian Society"
certainly contained such values, particularly in the upper-classes
and the emerging middle class, the primary sources of the "tradition"
continued to go about their producing of traditional music. In the
midst of the kinds of set-backs which had troubled them for centuries.
Granted, the Victorian era saw many naive attempts to "improve" tradition.
So have all eras. Many fail miserably. Some, like the fellow who added
the third drone, the fellow who invented the "Union Pipes," the fellow
who figured out how to mass-produce tin whistles, the fellow who first
brought a violin to Ireland, and perhaps even the fellow who played
a Greek traditional instrument called a bozouki in the guise of a giant
mandolin, enrichen it.
Arguably, the "Radio Days" of the Depression and Post-depression eras
did as much to corrupt the Celtic tradition as did the Victorian period.
How many Americans now believe that Irish music consists of "Danny
Boy," sung by a pure tenor, and "Irish Lullaby," crooned by Bing
Crosby? And that Scottish Music sounds like the Edinburgh Military
Tattoo?
Then again, perhaps future generations will be making fun of Planxty,
de Danaan, the Chieftains, and Clanaad, pointing out where they got
it awfully wrong.
Greg
Allyn Weaks
>Seems to me that most english words to "songs" of this nature are
>Victorian in origin, as there was apparently a massive Celtic revival
>around those times. Check out "Songs of the Hebrides" for some
>sickening examples of this. To call this "Celtic music" may hint
>at the origin of the tunes(melody), but I don't believe the words
>have any connection to Celtic culture. Yes, even "Greensleeves".
While I agree with some of your article, Greensleeves is a poor example. The
tune is of English Renaissance origin. The first mention of it is from 1580
as 'a Northern Dittye', and the _Oxford Concise Dictionary of Music_ says that
there's evidence for a somewhat earlier date (it's too concise though to say
what the evidence is.) The tune was used for everything from ballads to
'Greensleeves moralized into Scripture' (1580). Shakespeare mentions it, as
did a bunch of other writers. The Cavaliers used it as a party tune for
political ballads during the English Civil War, and the tune was also known as
The Blacksmith. There are several instrumental variation sets for
virginal/harpsichord and flute/recorder, too. If the Victorians added yet
another new set of words, they were just following in the tradition, as was
Vaughan Williams when he wrote an orchestral fantasia on the tune.
There's nothing terrible about reworking old tunes and giving them new words
(or new meters, or turning them inside out) to fit current styles - it's been
done for millenia.
Allyn Weaks
al...@milton.u.washington.edu
Michael Koster
>In article <13...@ios.Convergent.COM> mi...@ios.Convergent.COM (Michael Koster) writes:
>>
>>Having said all this, I suppose we should be happy that anything
>>at all has survived. Victorian society would not have been
>>interested in the "real" thing, as it would have been too "vulgar"
>>or at least unsuitable for the drawing-room, and it may have died
>>out almost entirely.
>I wonder, then, how one rationalizes the Victorian era having
>given us the "Gaelic Clubs," and a fellow by the name of O'Neill?
>...
>There is a tendency to paint the Victorian era with very broad
>strokes; to see it as all lace curtains, "drawer-ing" rooms, and
>"we are not amused." To do so is, I believe, a terrible mistake,
>...
>How many Americans now believe that Irish music consists of "Danny
>Boy," sung by a pure tenor, and "Irish Lullaby," crooned by Bing
>Crosby? And that Scottish Music sounds like the Edinburgh Military
>Tattoo?
>Then again, perhaps future generations will be making fun of Planxty,
>de Danaan, the Chieftains, and Clanaad, pointing out where they got
>it awfully wrong.
>Greg
And Allyn Weaks writes:
>While I agree with some of your article, Greensleeves is a poor example. The
>...
>virginal/harpsichord and flute/recorder, too. If the Victorians added yet
>another new set of words, they were just following in the tradition, as was
>Vaughan Williams when he wrote an orchestral fantasia on the tune.
>There's nothing terrible about reworking old tunes and giving them new words
>(or new meters, or turning them inside out) to fit current styles - it's been
>done for millenia.
>Allyn Weaks
>al...@milton.u.washington.edu
Yes, Greensleeves is a poor example, or maybe typical in an obvious way.
Thank you for helping me to temper my cynicism. My original article was
inspired by my having noticed that someone, on hearing a Victorified
version of some song, had mistaken it for something more ancient.
Let's try this: The Victorian Era was perhaps the first large-scale
commercialization of popular music. A truly vast amount of traditional
music was published for popular consumption. Not quite as vast as radio
or recorded music, but on a larger scale than was previously done.
Combining this with a Celtic revival results in a proliferation of
popularized (Victorified) Celtic music, and the most recent as well
as the most voluminous "historical" source currently available.
Imagine a full-scale Celtic revival today. Electrified, modernized,
top-40 "Celtic" music. Someone looking back 100 years from now might
not quite understand.
So, my frustration results from the effect we have when popularly
styled versions of tunes/songs replace the ancient ones that I am
probably more interested in. I play a tune in a way that I feel
is "historically interesting", and someons says "yeah, but I really
like the version on ... ". OK...
BTW, I like quite a lot of the music from the Victorian period. I
also rework tunes to my own taste. I also play music written for
various other instruments adapted to my own (wire-strung harp).
Some of my favorites are Scott Skinner's Victorified fiddle tunes.
I get a lot of material from "Songs of the Hebrides"; just wish
I didn't have such an aversion to the sappy lyrics :^).
Geraint Jones
was making fun of the Victorians though. The only reason for saying that the
Victorian English song `The Ash Grove' wasn't Welsh was that it was English!
Mind you the educated Welsh, and Scots and Irish for that matter, in the second
half of the last century were mostly trying to pretend to be as English as they
could be, themselves. One of the reasons that the British find the United
States of America so quaint is that we tend to think of the North East Coast,
where the white culture seems to be predominantly this very Victorian culture
carefully pickled and preserved. What Americans call `folk' music for example
has something of the Victorian `restoration' of mediaeval architecture about
it; at least to my ear. (Not to say that I don't like it...)
g