Matty Groves vs Little Musgrave
Chris Timson
: Can anyone out there solve a puzzle that has long fascinated me?
:
: "Matty Groves" recorded by Fairport Convention ("Liege & Lief) is
: obviously the same traditional song as "Little Musgrave" recorded
: by Planxty ("The Woman I Loved So Well).
:
: Which came first, or are both based on another song?
:
What we have here is a traditional ballad. Somewhere back in the past
(quite possibly a *long* way in the past) this story or one much like
it became embodied in song. It then passed from singer to singer, and
in the way of these things each singer adds something of him or herself
to the song. It changes, mutates and progresses over time, until there
might be dozens, hundreds of variants around, different words,
different tunes, but recognisably the same story. There are more than
two variants of Little Musgrove around. I know, for instance, several
variants of John Barleycorn, I have heard quite a few more.
The result is that you cannot meaningfully ask of two variants "which
came first". That is the nature of traditional song and music. This
way of development is sometimes referred to as the "folk process",
also (to be slightly more pseud) "communal creation".
Some will say that this has now stopped in the West, I have heard
others argue otherwise, but either way it is the folk process that lies
at the heart of the difference between tradtional music and other musics.
P.S. Congratulations on the Cup.
--
Chris Timson Have concertinas, will travel
and Phone 01225 863762
Anne Gregson Global disclaimer: who, us?
Michael Daly
"Matty Groves" recorded by Fairport Convention ("Liege & Lief) is
obviously the same traditional song as "Little Musgrave" recorded
by Planxty ("The Woman I Loved So Well).
Which came first, or are both based on another song?
Both versions are excellent renditions of the fatal consequences of
the liason between Matty Groves/Little Musgrave and the wife of
Lord Donald/Lord Bernard.
Michael Daly
Auckland, New Zealand
(new home of the America's Cup)
Joseph C Fineman
corrections in Vols. 4, 5). It appears there under the title "Little
Musgrave and Lady Barnard", in 14 versions. Heaven knows how many
have been collected since. The name "Musgrave" occurs in a variety of
forms in Child, and I suspect that "Matty Groves" is yet another of
them.
Enjoy. %^)
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
Beverlie Robertson
singers. In the version that I sing, learned from the wonderful Jack
Nissensen formerly of Montreal & now Toronto, Lord Barnard has become Lord
Banner. This is a truly great classic ballad - it has illicit love &
lust, duelling, deceit, honour, murder, etc. No wonder it has survived
for so many centuries. Beverlie
In article <D8L79...@world.std.com>, j...@world.std.com (Joseph C
Abby Sale
MD> "Matty Groves" recorded by Fairport Convention ("Liege & Lief) is
MD> obviously the same traditional song as "Little Musgrave" recorded
MD> by Planxty ("The Woman I Loved So Well).
MD> Which came first, or are both based on another song?
The chicken came first.
Actually, I'd strongly suggest you look up FJ Child's _The English and
Scottish Popular Ballads_ for a better understanding of this whole
issue. It is the extensive collection of old songs as per its title.
The generic title used by Child for this is "Little Musgrave and Lady
Bernard." This isn't the "correct" or oldest or even necessarily most
common title, just the generic one he used. If you look at song #81
you'll find 15 versions collected from various sources along with notes.
Earliest printed source is about 1600 with the generic title.
In America (also see Bertrand Harris Bronson, _The traditional tunes of
the Child ballads_ or some very good types in JJ Niles _THe Ballad
Book.) it's usually "Mattie Groves."
There's a fascinating sub-plot given in Niles. Many versions keep the
"warning" (or prophetic warning) that makes this a classic tragedy.
Mattie awakes when he hears the huntsman horn (or something else)
sounded by one of Bernard's men & gets worried. Lady says shut up and
go back to sleep. They don't heed the warning so Bernard surprises them
when he arrives.
But what was the huntsman doing blowing that horn? Bernie clearly wants
to sneak up on them. This was never a hunting trip & it's night time
anyway. You can't accidently blow a hunting horn. The huntsman is
clearly trying to warn Matt; but why? Niles feels the "folk" needed an
answer to this too and found it in the version printed in _Traditional
Ballads of Virginia._
Seems that one of Bernie's men fancies Bernie's daughter. He hears
Bernie promise that daughter to footpage if footpage's news about Lady &
Mattie is true. Huntsman wants to discredit footpage & keep daughter
for himself so he tries to warn Mattie to split by blowing the horn.
Other versions make him out just someone who wishes no harm to anyone
without self-interest. But this _is_ an open question and at least
sometimes, singers seem to need to answer it. I like that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: | Abby...@animece.oau.org, as...@animece.oau.org
Abby Sale | ...!ucf-cs!alfred!animece!Abby.Sale
Orlando, FL | FIDOnet: 1:363/137.0 (407) 834-6090
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Smith
> There are probably as many versions of this ballad as there are ballad
> singers. In the version that I sing, learned from the wonderful Jack
> Nissensen formerly of Montreal & now Toronto, Lord Barnard has become Lord
> Banner. This is a truly great classic ballad - it has illicit love &
> lust, duelling, deceit, honour, murder, etc. No wonder it has survived
> for so many centuries. Beverlie
>
>> corrections in Vols. 4, 5). It appears there under the title "Little
>> Musgrave and Lady Barnard", in 14 versions. Heaven knows how many
>> have been collected since. The name "Musgrave" occurs in a variety of
>> forms in Child, and I suspect that "Matty Groves" is yet another of
>> them.
There's an unusual and quite compelling version of this ballad known as "The
Bonny Birdy," which Ray Fisher sings on an album she did for Leader/Trailer
ages ago. Unfortunately, I don't have my record library with me at the moment
(maybe I'll post a follow-up from home), so I can't tell you the title, but
among the backing musicians are Martin Carthy, Colin Ross, Tim Hart, Ashley
Hutchings and Peter Knight.
As the liner notes, written by the late A.L. Lloyd, explain, "Bonny Birdy" uses
the similar Groves/Graves story line about infidelity but focuses on a
different central character, i.e., the "birdy" to describe what happens.
Hmmm--I think I really will have to look at those liner notes again.
Sean Smith
smt...@bcvms.bc.edu
||||
"The sooner all the animals are dead, the sooner we'll find their money."
--Ed Bluestone
||||||
Michael Daly
says...
>
>
>What we have here is a traditional ballad. Somewhere back in the past
>(quite possibly a *long* way in the past) this story or one much like
>it became embodied in song. It then passed from singer to singer, and
>in the way of these things each singer adds something of him or herself
>to the song.
----------
Thanks, I suspected as much. I have heard/read numerous variations of the
lyrics to Tam Lin myself.
Michael Daly
Auckland, New Zealand
(We're trying to be modest about winning the America's Cup, but ....)
ppint.
smt...@bcvms.bc.edu "Sean Smith" wrote:
> In article <beverlie-150...@coopmac30.uwaterloo.ca>,
> beve...@nh1adm.uwaterloo.ca (Beverlie Robertson) writes:
> > There are probably as many versions of this ballad as there are ballad
> > singers. In the version that I sing, learned from the wonderful Jack
> > Nissensen formerly of Montreal & now Toronto, Lord Barnard has become Lord
> > Banner. This is a truly great classic ballad - it has illicit love &
> > lust, duelling, deceit, honour, murder, etc. No wonder it has survived
> > for so many centuries. Beverlie
> >
>
> There's an unusual and quite compelling version of this ballad known as "The
> Bonny Birdy," which Ray Fisher sings on an album she did for Leader/Trailer
> ages ago. Unfortunately, I don't have my record library with me at the moment
> (maybe I'll post a follow-up from home), so I can't tell you the title, but
> among the backing musicians are Martin Carthy, Colin Ross, Tim Hart, Ashley
> Hutchings and Peter Knight.
> As the liner notes, written by the late A.L. Lloyd, explain, "Bonny Birdy"
> uses the similar Groves/Graves story line about infidelity but focuses on
> a different central character, i.e., the "birdy" to describe what happens.
> Hmmm--I think I really will have to look at those liner notes again.
>
>
- chris bell has "the true story", (which she was told in hexam,
northumberland, when an old woman heard her singing the song and
made her sing it again, then said to her that it was very pretty,
but not quite right...).
i published it in last year's interstitial ish of feetnotes -
#13 1/2probably (i received it too late for the main ish, #13prob'ly,
published at easter - so i'll include it in this year's main ish
(due out for the scottish convention, by august 24th - <ulp>) -
_Lord Donald & Matty's Lady_
- but i do _not_ have her permission to post it or e-mail it:
sorry. come to the scottish (world sf) convention this year, or
e-mail me and i'll let you know how much it'll cost me to send
you a copy of #14prob'ly as soon as i know what it weighs/costs
to print and post...
- love, ppint.
--
"the life of a vegetable is of no interest to anyone whatsoever -
including to the vegetable in question. i speak from personal experience."
- ppint. at the sf, fantasy and horror book and role-playing game shop,
interstellar master traders, lancaster
Sean Smith
>
>
> There's a fascinating sub-plot given in Niles. Many versions keep the
> "warning" (or prophetic warning) that makes this a classic tragedy.
> Mattie awakes when he hears the huntsman horn (or something else)
> sounded by one of Bernard's men & gets worried. Lady says shut up and
> go back to sleep. They don't heed the warning so Bernard surprises them
> when he arrives.
>
> But what was the huntsman doing blowing that horn? Bernie clearly wants
> to sneak up on them. This was never a hunting trip & it's night time
> anyway. You can't accidently blow a hunting horn. The huntsman is
> clearly trying to warn Matt; but why? Niles feels the "folk" needed an
> answer to this too and found it in the version printed in _Traditional
> Ballads of Virginia._
>
> Seems that one of Bernie's men fancies Bernie's daughter. He hears
> Bernie promise that daughter to footpage if footpage's news about Lady &
> Mattie is true. Huntsman wants to discredit footpage & keep daughter
> for himself so he tries to warn Mattie to split by blowing the horn.
>
> Other versions make him out just someone who wishes no harm to anyone
> without self-interest. But this _is_ an open question and at least
> sometimes, singers seem to need to answer it. I like that.
>
suggesting that the huntsman in question actually feels the Love That Dare Not
Speak Its Name for _Matty/Musgrave_, and thus blows the horn. (Yes, yes, I
know, that's a phrase to conjure with).
Of course, there's some versions -- Martin Carthy sang one on his "Prince
Heathen" album -- in which Lord Bernard is accompanied by many of his men, and
between all of them they manage to create quite a din:
And some men whistled and some men sang
And some these words did say
When'er my lord's horn does blow
Away Musgrave, away!
Here, it's not exactly clear who blew the horn--maybe even the lord himself, to
rally the troops back home with him. And the whistling and singing makes it
seem as if the men are taking delight in this scandal; i.e., whoo-ee, Lord
Bernie's going to show that kid a thing or two.
Another little variation I find interesting is the immediate aftermath of the
lovers' slayings. In many versions, the lord orders a grave for his now ex-wife
and Musgrave -- only putting her higher up because "she was of nobler kin." And
in some of these versions, the lord expresses remorse at his act:
Woe be to ye, me merry men all
That I paid meat and wage
Why did you not offer to stay my hand
When I flew into a rage?
This verse usually comes before the one where he orders them buried together,
as if this is his act of contrition--but yet he's determined to punish them one
final time by keeping them separated in the grave.
I was raised on Joan Baez's version, which to me is one of her great
performances. But I also like Fairport Convetion's, and the aforementioned
Carthy rendering. Then there's "The Bonny Birdy," as done by Ray Fisher
(described in another post), which could start a whole other thread!
Beverlie Robertson
with all the passions, violence, love enjoyed & lost, & strange twists of
fate then & now. Sorry for the emoting, but I love ballads & wish there
were more places that one could sing them. Beverlie
M. Jonas
Sean Smith <smt...@bcvms.bc.edu> wrote:
>There's an unusual and quite compelling version of this ballad known as "The
>Bonny Birdy," which Ray Fisher sings on an album she did for Leader/Trailer
>ages ago. Unfortunately, I don't have my record library with me at the moment
>(maybe I'll post a follow-up from home), so I can't tell you the title, but
>among the backing musicians are Martin Carthy, Colin Ross, Tim Hart, Ashley
>Hutchings and Peter Knight.
>As the liner notes, written by the late A.L. Lloyd, explain,"Bonny Birdy" uses
>the similar Groves/Graves story line about infidelity but focuses on a
>different central character, i.e., the "birdy" to describe what happens.
>Hmmm--I think I really will have to look at those liner notes again.
>
That album is actually titled "The Bonny Birdy" (Trailer LER 2038)
and is from 1971. It seems to have been in print until very recently, as
one of our local record stores actually still has a copy in stock (sold as
new, not as remaindered or used) - vinyl of course, that is; hardly any
Leader/Trailer stuff is out on CD. Actually the only one I can think of
is Dick Gaughan's "No More Forever". That Ray Fisher album has her play
two songs backed by the complete "Ten Man Mop" Steeleye line-up (The
Forfar Sodger and Johnny Sangsters/Kindred Spirit)
Anyway, yes, there are lots and lots of versions of Little Musgrave, not the
worst of which is Martin Carthy's on Prince Heathen. That one is notable,
as it's actually taken *verbatim* from Child's A version - there aren't
many instances where the Child text actually turns out to be singable.
Martin
Michael Daly
says...
>
(edited)
>>
>I _wish_ I could remember who this was, but I know I once heard/read
someone suggesting that the huntsman in question actually feels the
Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name for _Matty/Musgrave_, and thus blows
the horn. (Yes, yes, I know, that's a phrase to conjure with).
>
himself, to rally the troops back home with him. And the whistling and
singing makes it seem as if the men are taking delight in this scandal;
i.e., whoo-ee, Lord Bernie's going to show that kid a thing or two.
>
>Another little variation I find interesting is the immediate aftermath
of the lovers' slayings. In many versions, the lord orders a grave for
his now ex-wife and Musgrave -- only putting her higher up because
"she was of nobler kin." And in some of these versions, the lord
expresses remorse at his act:
>
>Woe be to ye, me merry men all
>That I paid meat and wage
>Why did you not offer to stay my hand
>When I flew into a rage?
>
In the Planxty version there is a huntsman who "loved Little Musgrave"
and so blew his horn as a warning, disobeying Lord Bernard's express
instructions to keep quiet.
The footpage who betrayed the lovers is offered gold as a reward, or the
gallows if he is lying.
After he rather gorily slays them both & orders his lady buried on top
as she "came from better kin", Lord Bernard regrets his killing the
"finest knight that ever rode a steed" and "the finest lady that ever
did a woman's deed".
Thanks for your interesting observations.
- Michael Daly
Mephistophilis
been mentioned - check out Christy Moore's great version on one of
his earliest (vinyl) recordings (the second, I think, on Polydor).
Kevin Burke's fiddle does an imitation of the huntsman's warning horn
which is guarranteed to make the hair stand on end. The other tracks
are excellent too and I can't understand why the LP has not been
reissued on CD.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Fergus Lalor, Chemistry Dept., University College, Cork, Ireland.
STCH...@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE
'There were angels in the architecture
Spinning in Infinity
He said 'Hallelujah!'
(Paul Simon said that).
Bi/ Ann Anois!
(I said that).