Burning of Auchidoon
Ethan A Merritt
>
>Can anybody tell me whether The Burning of Auchidoon is a Child Ballad?
>And if so, what number? It's not in any of my ballad books, and neither
Child #183 "Willie MacIntosh". The first four verses are as you give them,
Child gives the fifth verse as
Crawing, crawing, For my crowse crawing,
I lost the best feather i my wing For my crowse crawing.
Ethan A Merritt
mer...@u.washington.edu
Gary Martin
Can anybody tell me whether The Burning of Auchidoon is a Child Ballad?
And if so, what number? It's not in any of my ballad books, and neither
obvious source, Maddy Prior & June Tabor - Silly Sisters)
As I came in by Fiddich side
on a May morning
I spied Willie Mackintosh
an hour before the dawning
"Turn again, him again
turn again I bid ye,
If ye burn Auchidoon
Huntly he will head ye"
"Head me or hang me
that will never fear me
I will burn Auchidoon
ere the life leaves me"
As I came in by Fiddich side
on a May morning
Auchidoon was in a blaze
an hour before the dawning
Crawing, crawing
for all your crowse crawing
You've burnt your crops
and tint your wings
an hour before the dawning
--
Gary A. Martin, Assistant Professor of Mathematics, UMass Dartmouth
Mar...@cis.umassd.edu
C. E. Taggart
The Battlefield Band have also recorded this song, on their second most
recent album NEW SPRING, as part of a long set of tunes with which they
close the album. Alastair Russell sings, and it's a brilliant rendition.
With a few minor exceptions, the lyrics are the same as posted above.
They spell the title "Auchindoun", incidentally.
Regards,
Chuck
--
C. E. Taggart | | "Do not replace family
ea...@netcom.com | KCRW, 89.9 FM | traditions with media-
eam...@well.sf.ca.us | Santa Monica, California | imposed conventions."
gu...@genie.geis.com | | -- Marc Savoy
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ghost
>And if so, what number? It's not in any of my ballad books, and neither
>of my two recordings says. (Short Sisters - Short Tape, and their
>obvious source, Maddy Prior & June Tabor - Silly Sisters)
And their obvious source is Ewan MacColl; I associate it with him entirely,
almost a signature song, & luckily have it on tape to prove it this time;
tape's at home though. Question then is where did he get it?
Daniel M. Rosenblum
>In article <MARTIN.93...@lyra.cis.umassd.edu>,
>Gary Martin <mar...@lyra.cis.umassd.edu> wrote:
>>Can anybody tell me whether The Burning of Auchidoon is a Child Ballad?
>>And if so, what number? It's not in any of my ballad books, and neither
>>of my two recordings says. (Short Sisters - Short Tape, and their
>>obvious source, Maddy Prior & June Tabor - Silly Sisters)
>The Battlefield Band have also recorded this song, on their second most
>recent album NEW SPRING, as part of a long set of tunes with which they
>close the album. Alastair Russell sings, and it's a brilliant rendition.
>With a few minor exceptions, the lyrics are the same as posted above.
>They spell the title "Auchindoun", incidentally.
As someone else pointed out, this is Child # 183, "Willie Macintosh".
There's a set of words and music in Ewan MacColl's _Folk_Songs_and_
_Ballads_of_Scotland_ (New York: Oak Publications), 1965, p. 83.
MacColl writes: "Following the murder of the Earl of Murray, the
MacIntoshes of the clan Chattan pillaged a castle and killed four men
on an estate belonging to the Earl of Huntley. In retaliation,
Huntley laid waste the lands of Clan Chattan. Returning home from
this engagement he surprised the MacIntoshes spoiling his lands at
Cabrach and, in the ensuing fight, killed sixty of them."
MacColl's recording of this is another great one, although I
can't recall now which album(s) it's on.
--
Daniel M. Rosenblum, Assistant Professor, Quantitative Studies Area,
Graduate School of Management, Rutgers University (Newark Campus)
ROSE...@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU ROSE...@ZODIAC.BITnet
d...@andromeda.rutgers.edu ...!rutgers!andromeda.rutgers.edu!dmr
M. Jonas
> MacColl's recording of this is another great one, although I
> can't recall now which album(s) it's on.
One version is on Blood & Roses Vol.4 or 5. It's only 53 seconds long!
I think (but I may be wrong here) that Martin Carthy recorded it on
Crown Of Horn.
Martin
Gary Martin
Thanks to everybody for all the info about Auchidoon. I've got Blood
& Roses Vols. 1-3. I'd love to get Vols. 4-5. Does anybody know
if they are available on CD, or are we stuck with vinyl? Or are they
available at all? I have the address for Blackthorne on Vols. 1-3,
which I think is still current, but don't know about availability or
price.
Does anybody know where I can obtain any of the references mentioned
by the respondants? And others? I've been trying for several years
to find copies of Child and Bronson. I'd also love to get a copy of
MacColl's book. Where does one find these? I'm never even sure
what section to look in when I check used book stores.
ghost
>& Roses Vols. 1-3. I'd love to get Vols. 4-5. Does anybody know
>if they are available on CD, or are we stuck with vinyl? Or are they
>available at all? I have the address for Blackthorne on Vols. 1-3,
>which I think is still current, but don't know about availability or
>price.
>
>Does anybody know where I can obtain any of the references mentioned
>by the respondants? And others? I've been trying for several years
>to find copies of Child and Bronson. I'd also love to get a copy of
>MacColl's book. Where does one find these? I'm never even sure
>what section to look in when I check used book stores.
Everybody's going to love this: I have "Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger
Sing Scots Ballads" on tape off of a library record, & can't find the
xerox of the album cover, though I can find everything else I xeroxed
about what I taped that summer....Its here "somewhere". I hope.
I don't believe it was in print at the time I taped it...
Auchindoon was on it, though, & it was *not* a Blood&Roses album
(that's for sure; could the label sue that Axl twit?).
MacColl does repeat favorite songs from album to album.
I'm pretty sure Auchindoon was also on a Folkways or Broadsides album that
we had in the 60s that should have been titled
"Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger sing tiny fragments of Scottish Ballads".
I was in some kind of perfectionist snit when I rescued some family albums
from a fate worse than death, & was mad at this one for not having
"whole songs", & left it to that fate. I think, & thought then,
that Auchindoon is in perfect narrative form just as it stands,
but I wasn't going to lug the whole album cross-country
for just the one song...
As for Child:
If you'd be satisfied just want to gaze upon it, rather than borrow or
own it, the Cambridge, MA main library used to have a copy
(& hopefully still do);
in order to look at it you had to deposit your 1st-born, if you had one
(pets not acceptable as collateral on this); I think they took my
eyeglasses.
ghost
>In article <MARTIN.93...@lyra.cis.umassd.edu> mar...@lyra.cis.umassd.edu (Gary Martin) writes:
>>Does anybody know where I can obtain any of the references mentioned
>>by the respondants? And others? I've been trying for several years
>>to find copies of Child and Bronson. I'd also love to get a copy of
>>MacColl's book. Where does one find these? I'm never even sure
>>what section to look in when I check used book stores.
>As for Child:
>If you'd be satisfied just want to gaze upon it, rather than borrow or
>own it, the Cambridge, MA main library used to have a copy
>(& hopefully still do);
That was, of course:
As for Child:
If you'd be satisfied just to gaze upon it, rather than borrow or
own it, the Cambridge, MA main library used to have a copy
(& hopefully still does);
Gary Martin
>As for Child:
>If you'd be satisfied just want to gaze upon it, rather than borrow or
>own it, the Cambridge, MA main library used to have a copy
>(& hopefully still do);
That was, of course:
[corrected grammar deleted because just want more time to enjoy its
quirkiness]
Our university library has Child (though I don't think we have Bronson),
and I think I could even borrow it, but I would like to own it (them?).
Re: Blood & Roses
Martin Jonas tells me in e-mail that Volumes 4 & 5 are out of print,
with the remaining copies purchased by a discount record store in
the UK. Perhaps someone will re-issue lots of this stuff on CD
someday. I guess I can use the intervening years to listen to all
the stuff I've already got.
ghost
>In article <1993Sep9.1...@das.harvard.edu> j...@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost ) writes:
>
> >As for Child:
> >If you'd be satisfied just want to gaze upon it, rather than borrow or
> >own it, the Cambridge, MA main library used to have a copy
> >(& hopefully still do);
>
> That was, of course:
>
>[corrected grammar deleted because just want more time to enjoy its
>quirkiness]
It wasn't *really* bad grammer, just an un-made word choice
( (satisfied just) vs (just want) ) that escaped.
>Our university library has Child (though I don't think we have Bronson),
>and I think I could even borrow it, but I would like to own it (them?).
Having the Eisteddfod, how could I have thought it would not have Child??
Now, If you *really* want to see some bad grammer....
Badder grammer could be thought to be that phrase of mine re CPL,
"hopefully still do"
because I don't normally use singular verbs for most single collective nouns
like the British do, as in "til the band reach the end"
in Richard Thompson's "Waltzing's For Dreamers"; maybe I think of that
library as a singular entity. Its copy looked like the original printing;
about a foot thick, bound in crumbly old leather. That was fun; felt like
real research in ancient tomes. My big disappointment was to find out that
Baez & co had already chosen the best versions, to my taste, of the songs
she covered, (at least the few I checked out; hedging all bets here)
& in one case, can't remember whether its Silkie or Cherry Tree Carol,
their choice was a seldom-used alternative in tiny print.
But the best version. All those years I had thought the verses left out of
things had just been left out for space/time constraints on records, &
that there were even better, grimmer versions of everything to be found
in the original collection (in some cases I'm sure there are).
And, of course, the crumbly leather-bound volume didn't play
tunes at you for the ones I hadn't heard yet.
Gary Martin
>Our university library has Child (though I don't think we have Bronson),
>and I think I could even borrow it, but I would like to own it (them?).
Having the Eisteddfod, how could I have thought it would not have Child??
Unfortunately, the Eisteddfod has always been a fringe event that doesn't
really have much support from the university. They tolerate it, but
there have been rumors in the last few years that some administrators
would like it to disappear. Fortunately, our administration has
recently undergone a major shakeup. Don't know the consequences yet,
but it can't be any worse. I don't know how the library wound up
with Child - the collection is generally spotty, things getting ordered
mainly when the relevant departments request them (budget permitting).
My guess is that Howard Glasser, founder of the Eisteddfod and a
professor of Design in the College of Visual & Performing Arts, somehow
got the library to buy it, despite his being in the "wrong" department.
Funding for Eisteddfod comes from the student board that allocates
student fee money, the alumni association, and a few granting agencies
both internal and external to the university. The main support we
get from the university is use of facilities and staff.
Ethan A Merritt
come by. I suppose in addition to used bookstores people have tried the
obvious? - I acquired Bronson (OK it was more than 10 years ago) by
writing to Princeton University Press directly.
As to other recommendations for sources - you might try to hunt up a
copy of _The Oxford Book of Ballads_ (ed: Kinsley, Clarendon Press, 1969).
It does, for instance, contain the "Burning of Auchindown" with text
given as in Child variant A for "Willie MacIntosh".
It's quite a reasonable collection, and not being American is probably
not subject to unavailability just because it's "out of print".
Kinsley gives only a single variant of each ballad, but they are good
ones. He says in the intro "Wherever I could, I have gone beyond Child
to his manuscript and printed sources" and goes on to thank Bronson for
allowing him to reprint some of the airs.
While checking to see if the UW library had Bronson (yes they do, 2 copies)
I found to my surprise that they also catalogued a 4-platter set of
recordings collected by Bronson, presumably a subset of those he put
into the book. Anyone heard these??
Ethan A Merritt
mer...@u.washington.edu
Colin Matheson
>Everybody's going to love this: I have "Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger
>Sing Scots Ballads" on tape off of a library record, & can't find the
>xerox of the album cover, though I can find everything else I xeroxed
>about what I taped that summer....Its here "somewhere". I hope.
>I don't believe it was in print at the time I taped it...
If I understand this correctly, the taping involves making what, in
this country at least, is an illegal copy. I have no time for this
kind of thing - it's straightforwardly stealing from the artists and
the record companies - and I'm very disappointed to see it being
admitted so blithely. In this case there's not even the excuse that
the artists and companies involved are particularly well-off - few
people in the folk world are rich, in my experience.
I hope most netters agree with me, but unfortunately I won't catch any
responses as I'm on holiday for a couple of weeks and I'm unlikely to
have time to look at the archives. You can always email me if you
really want to get in touch.
Colin
--
Colin Matheson Phone: +44 31 650 4451 | Centre for Cognitive Science
Fax: +44 31 650 4587 | University of Edinburgh
JANET: co...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk | 2 Buccleuch Place
or Colin.M...@edinburgh.ac.uk | Edinburgh EH8 9LW Scotland
ghost
>In article <1993Sep9.1...@das.harvard.edu> j...@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost ) writes:
>>Everybody's going to love this: I have "Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger
>>Sing Scots Ballads" on tape off of a library record, & can't find the
>>xerox of the album cover, though I can find everything else I xeroxed
>>about what I taped that summer....Its here "somewhere". I hope.
>>I don't believe it was in print at the time I taped it...
>If I understand this correctly, the taping involves making what, in
>this country at least, is an illegal copy. I have no time for this
>kind of thing - it's straightforwardly stealing from the artists and
>the record companies - and I'm very disappointed to see it being
>admitted so blithely. In this case there's not even the excuse that
>the artists and companies involved are particularly well-off - few
>people in the folk world are rich, in my experience.
A lot of people in the folk world are rich, in my experience;
I've seen them at concerts, I've seen what they drive, I've seen what
they wear & I've heard what they talk about;
that includes some of the performers, as it is the only explanation
of how some of them can maintain a seemingly romantic life-style of
touring & performing at low-pay venues with nothing more on their minds
than whatever is feeding into their philosophical angst at any particular
moment. Not too many "I can't pay the rent" songs among the current
US singer-songwriter crop, & not too many real-world cares expressed in
local interviews. Perhaps its different in the UK; this is just the Boston
report, from 22 years experience.
This has nothing to do with whether its moral to tape
impossible-to-legally-procur albums, though; just thought I'd get it
said. I know taping is not right. What bad things have you done
that you'll care to own up to in public?
One way to hear new (to you) music is to hear it off the radio;
unfortunately, sometimes the radio won't comply. And sometimes they just
don't want to overdo it for a particular performer. Library records around
here are all donations, I believe; some of the folk items were several years
out of print at the time I spoke about. You couldn't get a legal copy.
I've also had sad experience with ordering records from Folkways/Broadsides,
where several copies of special-ordered merchandise had to go back & forth
before I had copies where the extra blobs of plastic atop the records fell
only in the between-band spaces.
I refuse to spend that much money on something vulnerable as tape;
this was before the CD was invented.
Given that, unlike what sometimes seems like everyone else in the audience,
I'm not independently wealthy, & given that its often a monetary choice of
"go to a concert -maybe 2 or 3, at the price- or buy a record you've
*never heard*, not both" what would you recommend? Given that I go to all
the live music I can, & that I rarely play my record collection
(except on the somewhat-vague mental record player) the choice is obvious to me.
I've also got a fair amount of 2nd-hand records. Like the library copies,
someone else bought them, with profits going to the performer, then chose to
discard them. If hearing something on the cheap is going to impel you to want
to hear it live & at the going rate next time the performer comes to town,
hasn't part of what the record 'is for' been accomplished?
I know that with major acts these days they're clearly touring just to sell
material (at least in the eyes of the record company); but isn't it still
a little of both for less famous acts?
Daniel M. Rosenblum
( ghost ) wrote about having taped "Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger
Sing Scots Ballads" off of a library record. Then, in article
<15...@gibbon.ed.ac.uk> co...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Colin Matheson)
pointed out that that involved making an illegal copy (at least
in Britain) and expressed his disappointment that it was being
admitted so blithely, especially since, in his experience, few
people in the folk world are particularly well-off. In
<1993Sep13.1...@das.harvard.edu> j...@endor.harvard.edu
( ghost ) replied:
>A lot of people in the folk world are rich, in my experience;
>I've seen them at concerts, I've seen what they drive, I've seen what
>they wear & I've heard what they talk about;
>that includes some of the performers, as it is the only explanation
>of how some of them can maintain a seemingly romantic life-style of
>touring & performing at low-pay venues with nothing more on their minds
>than whatever is feeding into their philosophical angst at any particular
>moment. Not too many "I can't pay the rent" songs among the current
>US singer-songwriter crop, & not too many real-world cares expressed in
>local interviews. Perhaps its different in the UK; this is just the Boston
>report, from 22 years experience.
That may be so, but Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger are hardly the
right people to lump in with that singer-songwriter crowd. It's
sort of like saying "All the ministers I know are self-righteous
and lazy moralists, so I'm not going to give this Martin Luther
King, Jr. guy so much as the time of day."
>This has nothing to do with whether its moral to tape
>impossible-to-legally-procur albums, though; just thought I'd get it
>said. I know taping is not right. What bad things have you done
>that you'll care to own up to in public?
Likewise, I'm not passing judgment on the copying, just on the
context in which you chose to make this point.
>Given that, unlike what sometimes seems like everyone else in the audience,
>I'm not independently wealthy, & given that its often a monetary choice of
>"go to a concert -maybe 2 or 3, at the price- or buy a record you've
>*never heard*, not both" what would you recommend? Given that I go to all
>the live music I can, & that I rarely play my record collection
>(except on the somewhat-vague mental record player) the choice is obvious to me.
>I've also got a fair amount of 2nd-hand records. Like the library copies,
>someone else bought them, with profits going to the performer, then chose to
>discard them. If hearing something on the cheap is going to impel you to want
>to hear it live & at the going rate next time the performer comes to town,
>hasn't part of what the record 'is for' been accomplished?
>I know that with major acts these days they're clearly touring just to sell
>material (at least in the eyes of the record company); but isn't it still
>a little of both for less famous acts?
By the same reasoning, someone might argue that, "Given that,
unlike everyone else I see driving cars, I'm not independently
wealthy, and given that I don't have the money to buy a car
myself, why shouldn't I appropriate that nice one over there for
my own use?" OK, the analogy isn't really that good, because
my taping a record doesn't deprive someone else of the use of
what's on it, whereas my stealing a car does deprive them of
that use. It's just that the justification has to be stronger.
If you believe that current copyright laws are ridiculous
enough to warrant disobedience, then you should be willing to
publicly disobey them and take the consequences, recognizing
that your doing so constitutes a political act of civil
disobedience. But if you don't have that level of moral
commitment to your action, then I don't think it deserves
support. It's not clear from your posting which is the case.
The argument you're making about "hearing something on the cheap
... impel[ling] you to want to hear it live & at the going rate
next time the performer comes to town" is indeed a good one, and
it's precisely the argument that some software manufacturers
have accepted as a good reason not to copy-protect their products,
but it seems to me that it would be more productive in the long
run to get active in the political work necessary to get the
law changed, or to try to persuade small folk-oriented recording
companies to voluntarily use a policy like that of those software
manufacturers, rather than to just violate it.
The similarity between second-hand records and library records
is flawed, by the way, in that when you buy a second-hand record,
the original owner no longer has possession of it, so you are
not creating additional copies of it. (Likewise, with computer
software, there is nothing wrong with erasing some piece of
commercial software from your hard disk and selling your
original copy of it to someone else; you haven't reproduced it
and you've merely transferred ownership of the one copy to
another person. Copying a library copy of a record or a book
is more like making a copy of a piece of software for another
person.)
Clearly, from all the debating that goes on about things like
this, there's a serious difficulty involved with creating
property rights in goods that are not "excludable", in the
sense that you cannot exclude other people from using the
good (in this case, recorded sound or information). Our
present system of such property rights was formed in an era
when the relation between the information and the medium in
which the information was conveyed was far tighter than it is
today. I'm not sure, though, that just ignoring the existing
law is an adequate response to this situation.
All of which brings me to a question (my original reason for
posting this before logorrhea took over): Does anyone know
the procedure for getting approval to copy something the
publisher of which no longer exists? Suppose I want to make
a personal copy of something that Oak Publications put out,
or to tape a copy of an old Riverside record, and I want to
be property-wise correct about it. Whom do I get permission
from?
ghost
>my own use?" OK, the analogy isn't really that good, because
>my taping a record doesn't deprive someone else of the use of
>what's on it, whereas my stealing a car does deprive them of
>that use. It's just that the justification has to be stronger.
>If you believe that current copyright laws are ridiculous
>enough to warrant disobedience, then you should be willing to
>publicly disobey them and take the consequences, recognizing
>that your doing so constitutes a political act of civil
>disobedience. But if you don't have that level of moral
>commitment to your action, then I don't think it deserves
>support. It's not clear from your posting which is the case.
Well, I hadn't actually wanted to open the whole can of worms re
taping again, so I just came up with an off-the-cuff explanation,
rather than much of a defense. There isn't much of a defense.
I wasn't, in the initial post, trying to glibly advise taping records,
more like sheepishly admit to it, so I could then say
"Oh blank, now I can't tell anybody where to find this good
album..including myself, now that things are being re-issued on CD...
because I can't find the xerox of the jacket".
What I could muster up some level of moral commitment for is to make
sure that royalties are distributed to the copyright holder; stories
abound about people who never saw a cent. The man who wrote
"Anna (Go With Him)", a song the Beatles covered (now, I *bought* *that*
album way back when, but can't find it, & can't come up with his name)
was on the NPR Fresh Air interview show a few months back recounting how,
when he heard the cover version (he'd had a small-scale hit with it
himself years before; he wrote it about the woman who became his 1st wife)
he was ecstatic, for a while, expecting the money to just come rolling in.
He knew how many albums the Beatles were selling with his song on it;
the sales were a matter of public record. There was no doubt about
copyright ownership; the song had never been big enough that anyone
had ever even offerred to buy it from him.
He'd never seen a cent, despite many attempts to collect,
through the date of this interview 30-odd years later.
He was doing a comeback tour (with a lot of good early-60s-style
rock & roll songs, on a new record) at the time of the interview.
I heard a few months later that he'd died of a heart attack shortly
thereafter. I'd like very much to not believe what I heard, but the
DJ seemed responsible & all-too-well informed.
Back in the days of penny-a-page sheet music,
& no performance-for-sale aspect, the relationship between authors & buyers
was through a shorter path, though I know they got cheated plenty then too.
Nowadays if you want words to something you'd better hope they're included
with the album, & written music never is; the only other recourse to taping
& transcribing is to buy a book that includes lots of things you may not want
for just one song. (Sheet music is around $3.50/page now, & I've seen it
only for current pop hits & some Broadway standards; do folk publishers
provide any?)
>The argument you're making about "hearing something on the cheap
>... impel[ling] you to want to hear it live & at the going rate
>next time the performer comes to town" is indeed a good one, and
>it's precisely the argument that some software manufacturers
>have accepted as a good reason not to copy-protect their products,
>but it seems to me that it would be more productive in the long
>run to get active in the political work necessary to get the
>law changed, or to try to persuade small folk-oriented recording
>companies to voluntarily use a policy like that of those software
>manufacturers, rather than to just violate it.
I've heard that software companies are resigned to a few unlicensed
copies per every sale; they even send out demo discs and know they're
being copied for use. They hope that people will get hooked enough
on the program to want all the cheap update privileges, so will eventually
buy, & they also trust, most importantly, that the copier isn't selling
those extra copies. The point of contact here is that you haven't
necessarily deprived yourself of an automatic sale by allowing copying,
but may deprive yourself of a future sale by denying copying.
There's this new machine being touted in major-chain record stores
where you can code in a request & hear it, or part of it, before
buying the album. Don't know how many, if any,
old Ewan MacColl records they're planning to program in, though.
(My sister used to work in a store where they would open a copy of a
record & let you listen to it, with no obligation to buy...but this was
30 years ago. The only difference between that & the library
setup vis-a-vis out-of-print items is that you *could* buy a copy
when you made up your mind to.)
>The similarity between second-hand records and library records
>is flawed, by the way, in that when you buy a second-hand record,
>the original owner no longer has possession of it, so you are
>not creating additional copies of it.
In many, many cases the original owner has taped it (& so still
possesses it), with the thought to buying a CD when their tape wears out.
Some people, of course, hated the record & just couldn't wait to get
rid of it (except that they waited to sell it rather than smashed it or
gave it away).
>Clearly, from all the debating that goes on about things like
>this, there's a serious difficulty involved with creating
>property rights in goods that are not "excludable", in the
>sense that you cannot exclude other people from using the
>good (in this case, recorded sound or information). Our
>present system of such property rights was formed in an era
>when the relation between the information and the medium in
>which the information was conveyed was far tighter than it is
>today. I'm not sure, though, that just ignoring the existing
>law is an adequate response to this situation.
Most of the protection I've read about is along the lines of
putting info on the media & circuits in the copying equipment that
allow the equipment to recognize a 1st-generation copy & refuse to copy it.
This is designed specifically to prevent fast wholesale bootlegging;
it wouldn't prevent making a 1st-generation copy for personal use,
& so wouldn't prevent taping library records. I've read that it louses
up the equipment its been tried with & doesn't hold off determined
bootleggers for very long.
There's been discussion somewhere (maybe even here, a while ago)
about collecting royalties on 2nd-hand record/CD sales. I'd have
no problem paying those, morally or monetarily. To quote Chris Smither
at a recent concert "6 cents a record! So buy all those John Mayall
records". That's 6 cents/per song, & he has one on a recent Mayall record;
he has even more on his own albums, so you can cut out the middlemen &
go right to the source...
Side note about "Anna":
The author said, when asked, that the song was about a guy who'd dated
his girlfriend in 12th grade & was trying to "get her back" in high school;
that everyone in the neighborhood knew exactly who it was about & that it
served its purpose of creating whispering & laughter whenever the rival guy
showed up in a room. It doesn't have a happily-ever-after ending in that
the author did not spend the rest of his days with Anna, but you can't ask
for everything...(and Anna never wrote *her* side of the song).
Larry A. Clifford
>enough to warrant disobedience, then you should be willing to
>publicly disobey them and take the consequences, recognizing
>that your doing so constitutes a political act of civil
>disobedience. But if you don't have that level of moral
>commitment to your action, then I don't think it deserves
>support. It's not clear from your posting which is the case.
>
be the proper sequel to morally motivated disobedience of a
law that is unjust to begin with? Copyright laws or any
others? Why should society have some "right" to impose
punishment for the violation of an unjust law? Were slaves
who ran away from their masters morally uncommitted because
they evaded the marshals who were sent to round them up and
bring them back? If I evade being dragged off to the draft,
why should I not evade being dragged off to the jail too?
I reject the "take your lumps" view of civil disobedience.
King went to jail, as did Thoreau, as a tactical choice, not
because one accumulates moral legitimacy by allowing oneself to
be further victimized by the enforcers of unjust laws. Others,
with less to gain and more to suffer, perhaps, have chosen other
tactics -- such as evading capture.
I suppose this could be construed as having something to
do with music. After all, oppressive societies have often
forbidden the making of certain music -- English efforts
to ban Irish traditional music being an obvious example...
If there is some case where a person can copy music, or
violate any copyright law, without noticeably depriving
a performer of needed income or other rights, then I for
one won't call the cops.
Larry
sohl,william h
>posting this before logorrhea took over): Does anyone know
>the procedure for getting approval to copy something the
>publisher of which no longer exists? Suppose I want to make
>a personal copy of something that Oak Publications put out,
>or to tape a copy of an old Riverside record, and I want to
>be property-wise correct about it. Whom do I get permission
>from?
You don't need permission from anyone, according to the Home Recording
Rights Act enacted by Congress in 1991.
According to the Home Recording Rights
Coalition newsltter, Volume 7, No. 2, "the law is now crystal clear:
consumer audio taping, whether analog or digital, can NOT be challenged
as copyright infringement."
The law, the HRRA of 1991, addresses only "consumer" (i.e. individual
copying). It would not, therefore, be legal to make such
copies and sell them ,etc.
This act is applicable in the USA only.
Hope this helps anyone with a guilty conscience.
Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
Morristown, NJ email via UUCP bcr!cc!whs70
201-829-2879 Weekdays email via Internet wh...@cc.bellcore.com
ghost
>
> >Our university library has Child (though I don't think we have Bronson),
> >and I think I could even borrow it, but I would like to own it (them?).
>
> Having the Eisteddfod, how could I have thought it would not have Child??
>
>Unfortunately, the Eisteddfod has always been a fringe event that doesn't
>really have much support from the university. They tolerate it, but
I knew that from the comments at each recent festival, increasingly
ominous, that "this might be the last", culminating in last year's
Sunday having only one event. Looks like its back to full-schedule,
at least, this year.
There don't have to be 7 competing workshops for each time-slot
when 3 can be a painful enough choice.
Whosever idea it was to prominently advertise contra-dancing:
good idea, those guys will go *anywhere* to dance (as will the local
folk-dancers; should have done something to rope them in too, unless
you already have & I've missed it).
Hope all the fliers have gotten to all their dances.
I saw one at as early as last spring at NEFFA,
which they'd conned me for years into believing was for dancers only...
Speaking of painful choices:
Why have both the Eisteddfod & Boston College's Irish Festival
(this year the intrument focused on is pipes, both Uillean & Highland)
been moved to the same October holiday weekend? Great minds thinking
alike, but not consulting each other? Boston College moved all the way
from the spring, thought this might be this-year-only, to co-ordinate
with some piping convention held elsewhere (I only hope).
One partial cure for the 2-places-at-once problem is that, last year
anyway, Boston College's workshops actually were workshops, not
mini-concerts, attended by people who did not know how to play their
instruments very well yet, but as their instruments were harps...
I don't think I want to be too close to people who don't know how to
play their pipes very well yet. I speak from some small experience.
Its still a bad conflict.
Last year BC had a Friday night concert, Saturday real-work workshops
& 1 mini-concert, Saturday night concert, Sunday afternoon concert.
Eisteddfod seems to be back to a Friday night concert,
Saturday & Sunday "workshop" round-robin performances (the heart of
the thing), Saturday night concert, Sunday afternoon concert.
In both cases, the only real (& not very, at that) money either festival
wants to ask from attendees is for the concerts,
& they're all in direct competition (& a 1-1/2 to 2-hour drive apart,
depending on traffic).
Gary Martin
( ghost ) writes:
In article <MARTIN.93S...@lyra.cis.umassd.edu>
mar...@lyra.cis.umassd.edu (Gary Martin) writes:
>Unfortunately, the Eisteddfod has always been a fringe event that doesn't
>really have much support from the university. They tolerate it, but
I knew that from the comments at each recent festival, increasingly
ominous, that "this might be the last", culminating in last year's
Sunday having only one event. Looks like its back to full-schedule,
at least, this year.
It was very unfortunate that the "this might be the last" comments kept
happening - it's made it that much harder to get the word out that we're
alive and kicking. Probably our biggest obstacle is that most of our
funding comes from a grant from the student organization which disburses
student fee money for campus events and organizations. Their budget
cycle works in such a way that our funding for the Fall is not secure
until mid-February of the previous academic year. This discourages us
from planning too far in advance - nobody wants to do so much work
for something that could die if the student committee decides that
folk music isn't worth supporting. (We're looking for ways to break
free of this, but not fast enough.)
There don't have to be 7 competing workshops for each time-slot
when 3 can be a painful enough choice.
That's partly due to the idiotic architecture of this campus. Workshops
are generally very well attended, and we simply don't have 3 or 4 rooms
big enough to accommodate that many people (other than large, steeply
sloped lecture halls with chairs bolted to the floors).
The decision to cut back to Friday concert, Saturday events & concert,
and Sunday gospel workshop was basically for two reasons:
1. we were getting kind of burned out and wanted to focus our energy
into a shorter and more intense festival;
2. people were departing gradually all afternoon on Sunday, leaving
the afternoon concert kind of depressing - sparsely attended with
fewer and fewer people as time went on - last year there was group
singing from 10 to noon, everybody said their goodbyes, and left
feeling good.
This year, having a holiday weekend, we hope that people won't feel
such a need to get away early on Sunday.
Whosever idea it was to prominently advertise contra-dancing:
good idea, those guys will go *anywhere* to dance (as will the local
folk-dancers; should have done something to rope them in too, unless
you already have & I've missed it).
Hope all the fliers have gotten to all their dances.
I saw one at as early as last spring at NEFFA,
which they'd conned me for years into believing was for dancers only...
Thanks; I think that was Clyde Tyndale's idea, but I was the one who
made the flyers and put them at NEFFA. We'd like to have more dancing,
but again the architect gave us nothing but concrete floors to work with,
so our only space is the auditorium stage, which is only available
for a limited time (soundchecks & concerts being the competition).
Speaking of painful choices:
Why have both the Eisteddfod & Boston College's Irish Festival
(this year the intrument focused on is pipes, both Uillean & Highland)
been moved to the same October holiday weekend? Great minds thinking
alike, but not consulting each other? Boston College moved all the way
from the spring, thought this might be this-year-only, to co-ordinate
with some piping convention held elsewhere (I only hope).
We're quite worried about this. Again it shows where we stand in
the eyes of the administration. We (the campus committee that does
the organization) met with the advisory board (people who are "in
the loop" in the folk community) and chose to do the Eisteddfod on
Oct 1-3. A week or two later, the university told us that the
theater company had already booked the auditorium and had priority.
I don't know why we didn't know that at the meeting - it's believable
that we forgot to ask and equally believable that they knew but
didn't tell us. Anyway, we then had to make a quick decision and
didn't have time to consult the advisory board who might have known
about the Irish Festival. Except for the conflict, I like the
choice of the Columbus Day weekend.
Its still a bad conflict.
Last year BC had a Friday night concert, Saturday real-work workshops
& 1 mini-concert, Saturday night concert, Sunday afternoon concert.
Eisteddfod seems to be back to a Friday night concert,
Saturday & Sunday "workshop" round-robin performances (the heart of
the thing), Saturday night concert, Sunday afternoon concert.
In both cases, the only real (& not very, at that) money either festival
wants to ask from attendees is for the concerts,
& they're all in direct competition (& a 1-1/2 to 2-hour drive apart,
depending on traffic).
We just recently started charging for workshops ($5 per day with a $2
discount for those who also attend that day's concert). Last year it
was $2, with the same discount. Prior to that it was free. Lots of
local people would come just for the workshops. This was unfair
to the people attending the concerts, but if we charged a high workshop
fee right away, we'd make lots of local enemies. The other obstacle
to charging a fair price for workshops is that we have no practical
way to enforce it. We're doing it on the honor system, which worked
quite well last year, but might not work so well if we were charging,
say, $8 per day. We don't have enough volunteers to post sentries
at the workshop doors.
And regarding the driving time: I've done it in 1:15 with no traffic,
and I tend to get passed by about 2/3 of the cars on the road. I
can certainly imagine a bad tie up that could make it a 2 hour trip,
but 1:30 in ordinary conditions would be very reasonable. I'll be
doing that drive again tomorrow to hear Robin Huw Bowen, so I'll
time it!
Gary Martin
Ghost asked:
Speaking of painful choices:
Why have both the Eisteddfod & Boston College's Irish Festival
(this year the intrument focused on is pipes, both Uillean & Highland)
been moved to the same October holiday weekend? Great minds thinking
alike, but not consulting each other? Boston College moved all the way
from the spring, thought this might be this-year-only, to co-ordinate
with some piping convention held elsewhere (I only hope).
We're quite worried about this. Again it shows where we stand in
the eyes of the administration. We (the campus committee that does
the organization) met with the advisory board (people who are "in
the loop" in the folk community) and chose to do the Eisteddfod on
Oct 1-3. A week or two later, the university told us that the
theater company had already booked the auditorium and had priority.
I don't know why we didn't know that at the meeting - it's believable
that we forgot to ask and equally believable that they knew but
didn't tell us. Anyway, we then had to make a quick decision and
didn't have time to consult the advisory board who might have known
about the Irish Festival. Except for the conflict, I like the
choice of the Columbus Day weekend.
Ghost also had written:
Its still a bad conflict.
Last year BC had a Friday night concert, Saturday real-work workshops
& 1 mini-concert, Saturday night concert, Sunday afternoon concert.
Eisteddfod seems to be back to a Friday night concert,
Saturday & Sunday "workshop" round-robin performances (the heart of
the thing), Saturday night concert, Sunday afternoon concert.
In both cases, the only real (& not very, at that) money either festival
wants to ask from attendees is for the concerts,
& they're all in direct competition (& a 1-1/2 to 2-hour drive apart,
depending on traffic).
I discussed price structure and added:
And regarding the driving time: I've done it in 1:15 with no traffic,
and I tend to get passed by about 2/3 of the cars on the road. I
can certainly imagine a bad tie up that could make it a 2 hour trip,
but 1:30 in ordinary conditions would be very reasonable. I'll be
doing that drive again tomorrow to hear Robin Huw Bowen, so I'll
time it!
It took exactly 1:15 from UMass Dartmouth to Boston College during the
evening rush hour (4:20 - 5:35). Traffic was heavy but not slow -
probably 5-10 minutes slower than on a Sunday morning, say. On the
other hand, outbound traffic was much slower, so for people coming
down for the Friday night concert, I'd advise waiting until things
ease up a bit - maybe have dinner first.
At the Robin Huw Bowen concert (which was absolutely delightful), I
spoke with Billie Hockett, who produced it. Billie produces a series
of 5 or 6 concerts per year of traditional British Isles music and
seems to know the New England traditional folk scene as well as
anybody. She had the history of the conflict between the BC Irish
Festival and the Eisteddfod different from the way I presented it,
and I trust her version more than I trust my own. She said that
the Irish Festival chose the date after we did and that when she
complained to the organizer, he told her that BC didn't offer him
any other options regarding use of the campus.
Billie's next concert is Sunday Sept. 26 with Cathal McConnell
and Len Graham (of Boys of the Lough and Skylark, respectively)
at the Museum of Our National Heritage in Lexington, MA. I hope
Maren will post a reminder later in the week.
ghost
> the organization) met with the advisory board (people who are "in
> the loop" in the folk community) and chose to do the Eisteddfod on
> Oct 1-3. A week or two later, the university told us that the
> theater company had already booked the auditorium and had priority.
That would have conflicted with the New England Sacred Harp Singing
Convention (this year in rotation at Wellesley College, Wellesley MA),
which I have to admit would have made a hardship only
for the apparently few people who care about both.
I don't know whether that convention is glued to a
particular weekend (such as "1st in October") or whether it floats.
>At the Robin Huw Bowen concert (which was absolutely delightful), I
>spoke with Billie Hockett, who produced it. Billie produces a series
>of 5 or 6 concerts per year of traditional British Isles music and
>seems to know the New England traditional folk scene as well as
>anybody. She had the history of the conflict between the BC Irish
>Festival and the Eisteddfod different from the way I presented it,
>and I trust her version more than I trust my own. She said that
>the Irish Festival chose the date after we did and that when she
>complained to the organizer, he told her that BC didn't offer him
>any other options regarding use of the campus.
I don't know what UMASS/Dartmouth does about football, but isn't
Columbus Day usually some big game for BC? It could be an away-game;
otherwise, there goes the parking (& all surrounding neighborhoods are
mad at BC & have promised to tow this year).
For people outside of New England: Billie Hockett started a conflict
calendar several years ago, with the purpose of informing performers
& their managers of scheduling conflicts with theoretically competitive
musical events (such as described here). I trust its working behind the
scenes, as intended, for some events, although it didn't with those
discussed here for reasons cited above.
I think managers should consult regional sports schedules too, although
its hard to know in advance which teams will still be holding fans
interest around the time of your concert. Still, you can guess that
anything the home team does, even if they're playing out of town,
will drain attendance away unless they're in the bottom of the standings.
I've been at several concerts over the years where attendance was down
for this reason & at which someone in the outer hall had brought a tv
or radio & ran in to announce it every time the team scored.
(Which I guess would spoil it these days for those who intended to tape
the game, walk home with their fingers in their ears, & watch it on
tape with their suspense intact.)
Daniel M. Rosenblum
(Larry A. Clifford) quotes me from an earlier posting:
If you believe that current copyright laws are ridiculous
enough to warrant disobedience, then you should be willing to
publicly disobey them and take the consequences, recognizing
that your doing so constitutes a political act of civil
disobedience. But if you don't have that level of moral
commitment to your action, then I don't think it deserves
support. It's not clear from your posting which is the case.
and then goes on to say:
I do not understand. Why should submission to unjust punishment
be the proper sequel to morally motivated disobedience of a
law that is unjust to begin with? Copyright laws or any
others? Why should society have some "right" to impose
punishment for the violation of an unjust law? Were slaves
who ran away from their masters morally uncommitted because
they evaded the marshals who were sent to round them up and
bring them back? If I evade being dragged off to the draft,
why should I not evade being dragged off to the jail too?
Point well taken. The example of slaves is quite persuasive. I
guess that I am looking for a way to distinguish between morally
motivated disobedience and mere selfish (immorally motivated, I
suppose) disobedience. Evidently my proposal is, to say the
least, flawed.
I reject the "take your lumps" view of civil disobedience.
King went to jail, as did Thoreau, as a tactical choice, not
because one accumulates moral legitimacy by allowing oneself to
be further victimized by the enforcers of unjust laws. Others,
with less to gain and more to suffer, perhaps, have chosen other
tactics -- such as evading capture.
Right again. Just one point: I think that King somewhere supported
what you reasonably call the "take your lumps" view, although I'm
sure he wouldn't have opposed the slaves' resisting recapture, so
even his own advocacy of that view must have had qualifications
(even if he didn't mention them at the time, which I don't know
whether he did or not).
If there is some case where a person can copy music, or
violate any copyright law, without noticeably depriving
a performer of needed income or other rights, then I for
one won't call the cops.
Fair enough, although I wish there were some operational way to
make that distinction, and, better yet, a way for the copyright
system to intelligently make it. Thanks for pointing out some
necessary improvements in my views. (I'm serious about that,
lest it sound sarcastic, which it's hard to avoid sounding given
people's attitudes about others' criticisms of what they have to
say.)
sohl,william h
>In <CDEup...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> clif...@coos.dartmouth.edu
>(Larry A. Clifford) quotes me from an earlier posting:
>
> If you believe that current copyright laws are ridiculous
> enough to warrant disobedience, then you should be willing to
> publicly disobey them and take the consequences, recognizing
> that your doing so constitutes a political act of civil
> disobedience. But if you don't have that level of moral
> commitment to your action, then I don't think it deserves
> support. It's not clear from your posting which is the case.
>
>and then goes on to say:
>
> I do not understand. Why should submission to unjust punishment
> be the proper sequel to morally motivated disobedience of a
> law that is unjust to begin with? Copyright laws or any
> others? Why should society have some "right" to impose
> punishment for the violation of an unjust law? Were slaves
> who ran away from their masters morally uncommitted because
> they evaded the marshals who were sent to round them up and
> bring them back? If I evade being dragged off to the draft,
> why should I not evade being dragged off to the jail too?
>
> violate any copyright law, without noticeably depriving
> a performer of needed income or other rights, then I for
> one won't call the cops.
You can call the cops, but there's no copyright violation in
the USA for home recording (see below after next paragraph by
D. Rosenblum)
>Fair enough, although I wish there were some operational way to
>make that distinction, and, better yet, a way for the copyright
>system to intelligently make it. Thanks for pointing out some
>necessary improvements in my views. (I'm serious about that,
>lest it sound sarcastic, which it's hard to avoid sounding given
>people's attitudes about others' criticisms of what they have to
>say.)
>Daniel M. Rosenblum, Assistant Professor, Quantitative Studies Area,
I posted a reply to this discussion several days ago during a time
when my news feed was behaving in a somewhat spotty fashion. Since
this recent post doesn't acknowledge the point I made, I offer it
again on the absolute legality within the USA of making copies
of music for one's own (personal) use.
In the fall of 1991, the Home Recording Rights Act was passed
by congress and signed into law by, then President Bush.
The HRRA was passed to specifically eliminate any question as
to the legality of home audio recording. In brief, the HRRA
allows you to make audio recordings of any music you like, regardless
of the source (e.g. old vinyl, CD, DAT, FM radio, etc.) without being
in violation of US copyright law.
One of the other parts of the act instituted a new tax on certain
audio recording equipment and recording tapes (e.g. DAT tape). The
purpose of the tax is to financially benefit all recording artists
for the perceived loss of income due to home recording. It remains
to be seen how much of the tax would ever benefit the really
small scale (e.g. many folk types) recording artists.
So, again, in the USA, you are NOT violating any copyright law
if you borrow a record from a friend and make your own home recording
of that. Likewise, you can do the same from a CD from your friend or a
library. Ditto for off-the-air recording of FM/AM broadcasts, etc.
Now that is the law in the USA. Your personal ethics, etc may vary,
but you need not worry about some overzeolous aquaintance turning you
in to the cops because you have a home made recording of some
music you got from another source.
Lloyd MacIsaac
: You can call the cops, but there's no copyright violation in
: the USA for home recording
: Likewise , You can do the same from a CD from your friend or a
: library. Ditto for off-the-air recording of FM/AM broadcasts, etc.
: Now that is the law in the USA. Your personal ethics, etc may vary,
: but you need not worry about some overzeolous aquaintance turning you
: in to the cops because you have a home made recording of some
: music you got from another source.
Warning...
This is American law only. In Canada it is illegal. Most material is
covered by a 50 year lifespan copyright. That means that material is
protected from unauthorized duplication for a 50 year period after the
death of the composer (ie. lifetime + 50 years).
Such home duplication is illegal in Canada.
The organization which collects royalties for the music industry SOCAN
(Society of Composers Artists and Musicians if I recall correctly) even
has a 1-800-rat-on-your-friends telephone liune (no, I don't recall the
number).
The courts can fine you, or even sieze your tapes and stereo equipment.
This law has been tested with software piracy, but I can't comment on any
actual cases of home music recording.
In Canada you need the permission of the copyright holder to make a copy.
It is best to get this permission in writing. A good place to start is
with the publisher (label for music) if you can't get a copy. They may
grant permission to reproduce for a nonimal fee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Lloyd MacIsaac " In this world you have to be very smart
University of Guelph or very pleasant. I have tried the smart
Guelph, Ontario and recommend the pleasant." - Elwood Dodd
lmac...@uoguelph.ca (James Stewart) in 'Harvey'
dd...@jaguar.uofs.edu
> If there is some case where a person can copy music, or
> violate any copyright law, without noticeably depriving
> a performer of needed income or other rights, then I for
> one won't call the cops.
Considering I already pay a "tax" that is supposed to reimburse the
record companies (not the musicians) for home taping that deprives them of
their "hard earned' money, I see no problem with taping something for a friend.
I know for damned sure the person who created the music isn't getting a cent of
it! But if they are a little known person who needs the bucks I urge others to
buy their stuff and only lend a copy. As for big folks, i.e. U2, etc. I don't
feel bad.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and,
University Of Scranton | for whatever reason, is not accomplished,
dd...@jaguar.uofs.edu | reaction is the alternative.
ddc1@SCRANTON | -Daniel De Leon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~