Understanding Folk Lyrics (Was foggy, foggy dew)
Woodmover
Folk songs. However when I question the meaning of the Lyrics I'm given blank
stares.
Following is a few examples:
In Tell Ol' Bill, Bill comes home in a "hurry up wagon". What is a hurry up
wagon?
In Scarbrough Fair. What is a "cambric shirt".
The Blue Tail Fly. What does it mean "Jimmie crack corn"?
Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
And last.....In the Candy Man, has the meaning changed by usage to mean a drug
pusher?
Bill Williams
off the disease. I have heard this twice within recent months from different
sources.
My Mississippi John Hurt version of Candy Man is about sex. Donovan's is
about drugs. I think it can still apply to both--depending on the song.
Woodmover <wood...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990417183418...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
amers
J. Bethancourt
>In the beginning guitar class I'm taking we TRY to sing and play a number of
>Folk songs. However when I question the meaning of the Lyrics I'm given blank
>stares.
>
>Following is a few examples:
>
>In Tell Ol' Bill, Bill comes home in a "hurry up wagon". What is a hurry up
>wagon?
an ambulance
>
>In Scarbrough Fair. What is a "cambric shirt".
a form of cloth
>
>The Blue Tail Fly. What does it mean "Jimmie crack corn"?
I've heard it as "gimmie cracked corn" which might be a clearer
meaning, or a later interpolation. Could be nonsense, too. Not
everything has meaning.
>
>Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
All indications are that this is a true meaning.
>
>And last.....In the Candy Man, has the meaning changed by usage to mean a drug
>pusher?
Depends. I heard it as a bawdy song.
Joe Bethancourt
- whitebard(at)mayo-ireland.ie
http://www.locksley.com/
Stephen Suffet
>
> In the beginning guitar class I'm taking we TRY to sing and play a
> number of Folk songs. However when I question the meaning of the
> Lyrics I'm given blank stares.
>
> Following is a few examples:
>
> In Tell Ol' Bill, Bill comes home in a "hurry up wagon". What is a
> hurry up wagon?
>
>
>
> class?
>
> mean a drug pusher?
Greetings:
A "hurry-up wagon" is probably an ambulance.
The refrain in "Blue Tail Fly" is "Give me cracked corn and I don't
care" or, if you prefer, "Gimme cracked corn and I don't care." Cracked
corn is corn liquor.
"Ring Around the Rosy" is NOT about the black death, despite false
rumors to the contrary. There is much documentation of this, including:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/ring.html
and http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/versions.html
and http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/ring_around_the_rosie.html
Cambric is a very fine white linen. A cambric shirt would really be
prized, something the nobility would wear.
A "candy man" is still a male lover in old folk songs, as in...
"He brings candy in the morning, candy most every night,
No one else's candy cane can fit the job just right.
Whatchya gonna do when your candy man is gone?"
The use of "candy man" to mean drug dealer came much, much later. 1970s
perhaps.
Any more questions? :-)
Regards,
Steve
Jeri Corlew
people I respect and read scholarly writings on the history of the plague which
assume the truth of this myth. I guess it comes down to "if you hear it enough
times, it must be true."
There's a website: http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/ring_around_the_rosie.html
(Sig's at bottom)
On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:39:04 -0500, "Bill Williams"
<bdwill...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Ring Around the Rosy IS about the black death. Posies were supposed to ward
>off the disease. I have heard this twice within recent months from different
>sources.
>Woodmover <wood...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:19990417183418...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
>> Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in
>class?
__
Jeri Corlew
(Remove "XXX" to reply)
SLHinton17
>In the beginning guitar class I'm taking we TRY to sing and play a number
>of
>Folk songs. However when I question the meaning of the Lyrics I'm given
>blank
>stares.
>
>Following is a few examples:
>
>In Tell Ol' Bill, Bill comes home in a "hurry up wagon". What is a hurry
>up
>wagon?
*****************
I think it's a hearse, although it sounds more like an ambulance. I'm sure
it's some kind of car that goes fast.
*****************
>In Scarbrough Fair. What is a "cambric shirt".
*****************
It's a shirt made of cambric, which is a linen or cotton material of a fine,
close weave, usually white.
*****************
>The Blue Tail Fly. What does it mean "Jimmie crack corn"?
*****************
There's been a lot of argument about this. I think it's just nonsense
syllables that mean nothing.
*****************
>Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
*****************
Probably not; that interpretation has been largely discredited.
*****************
>And last.....In the Candy Man, has the meaning changed by usage to mean
>a drug
>pusher?
*****************
I don't think it's been changed to mean that: that was its original intent.
I once asked Mississippi John Hurt what the phrase meant, and he smiled and
said "You all" (meaning white folks, I think) "aren't supposed to know about
what it means!"
Keep on asking! Din't let those blank stares bother you!
Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA
Steve Ashton
> >Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
> *****************
> Probably not; that interpretation has been largely discredited.
By whom? I read the postings and all I saw were "My theory is.." and
"Fred Bloggs of California says.."
The version common in the UK [England, at least] is:
Ring-a-ring-a-roses
A pocket full of poses
A-tishoo, a-tishoo
We all fall down
It may not have been in print before the 19th century, but so what?
Children were not accorded any rights until late this century and who is
interested in what goes on in the nursery, anyway? We *all* know the
rhymes, everybodies' mothers sang the things, so why bother to collect
them? Also, they were not *serious* folk music, so there is no point in
recording them.
The myth of the urban legend is that everything is explainable by
reference to something modern, and if possibly American, so muchg the
better.
All the replies posted have stated that this was NOT about the Plague,
but give no real explanations as to just what it may be. Surely
something with such a wide provenance would have some basis?
Oh, and it does fit the plague, even if it proves not to be connected
:~)
Steve
Stephen Suffet
>
> > *****************
> > >Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
> > *****************
> > Probably not; that interpretation has been largely discredited.
>
> By whom? I read the postings and all I saw were "My theory is.." and
> "Fred Bloggs of California says.."
>
> The version common in the UK [England, at least] is:
>
> Ring-a-ring-a-roses
> A pocket full of poses
> A-tishoo, a-tishoo
> We all fall down
>
Greetings:
Try these two sites:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/ring.html
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/versions.html
Regards,
Steve
Jeri Corlew
wrote:
>> *****************
>> >Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
>> *****************
>> Probably not; that interpretation has been largely discredited.
>
>By whom? I read the postings and all I saw were "My theory is.." and
>"Fred Bloggs of California says.."
Granted, it's hard to find evidence that something didn't exist, but when all
the people who have done serious research agree that it's not about the plague,
I tend to believe them.
>The myth of the urban legend is that everything is explainable by
>reference to something modern, and if possibly American, so muchg the
>better.
Nominations for the official motto of alt.folklore.urban, as found in the FAQ -
http://www.urbanlegends.com/afu.faq/intro.html - are:
"It COULD have happened so it MUST have happened"
"Yup. I've heard that one too so it must be true."
My personal opinion is that an urban legend is something which is proven true by
the fact that a lot of people believe it.
>Oh, and it does fit the plague, even if it proves not to be connected
The earliest version reported (from Massachusetts in the 1790s) goes:
Ring a ring a rosie,
A bottle full of posie,
All the girls in our town,
Ring for little Josie
This one doesn't fit the plague. Unfortunately, the only way to determine if
the modern version of the rhyme existed 400 years before this version is to take
a ride in a time machine - after getting a plague vaccine.
JesiAna
"Old Bill" home with his "feet draggin'," and he was apparently dead by the
time they brought him home: (Bill's woman was bakin' bread when they brought
her news that her Bill was dead"). I first heard a version of this song sung by
the Chad Mitchell Trio away back in the earliest years of my adolescence, and
I either interpreted it as such, or read that it meant hearse, it's been too
long to remember which. However, I'd take what both Steve and Sam say to heart,
they both really know their stuff.
Jesiana
"If you can walk, you can dance. If you can talk, you can sing."
Abby Sale
>In the beginning guitar class I'm taking we TRY to sing and play a number of
>Folk songs. However when I question the meaning of the Lyrics I'm given blank
>stares.
>
Now that several very competant & knowledgable people (in all seriousness)
have provided opposing answers, I'm sure those blank stares will be
cleared up. It reminds me of the old saw of a kid asking his father a
series of "Why is the sky blue" questions, getting blank stares & then
asking "you don't mind me asking, do you Dad?" "No," Dad answers, "how
else could you learn?"
(Don't be discouraged, some things are, in fact, known.) Cambric, anyway.
It's the rest of that song you may have to squint at a bit to get all the
very sexual references.
But one other can be answered. "Rosie." Stephen Suffet wrote:
> Try these two sites:
> http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/ring.html
> http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/versions.html
and I'm completely sure they are valid ones. But before I do, I want to
refer you and me to an excellent source: W & C Baring-Gould, in _The
Annotated Mother Goose_ (Potter, 1962) (Mr B-G is grandson of the great
collector) says, and this is 1962 so no new discovery:
#116. As recently as November 1961, Mr. James Leasor was writing in his
book _The Pleague and The Fire_ (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., Inc.)
that this rhyme "had its origin in the [Great Plague]. Rosy [Roses]
refers to the rosy rash of plague, ringed to signify the tokens; the
posies were herbs and spices carried to sweeten the air; sneezing [the
third line is often given as "A-tishoo! A-tish-oo!"] was a common symptom
of those close to death." And "We've all tumbled down" was in a way
exactly what happened.
This is an interesting theory, but "If you consult _The Oxford
Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" (as Charles Poore noted in his _New York
Times review of _The Plague and the Fire_, "you will find, in place of
corroboration, the somewhat frosty notation that: 'The invariable sneezing
and falling down in modern versions has given would-be origin-finders the
opportunity to say that the rhyme dates back to the days of the Great
Plague.'" Actually--surprising in a rhyme that has become the
accompaniment to one of our most popular nursery games,
"Ring-a-ring-a-roses" first appeared in print as late as 1881, in Kate
Greenaway's _Mother Goose_.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abby...@orlinter.com (That's in Orlando)
Gordon Hamlett
Steve Ashton wrote in message <3719E7...@virgin.net>...
>> *****************
>
>All the replies posted have stated that this was NOT about the
Plague,
>but give no real explanations as to just what it may be. Surely
>something with such a wide provenance would have some basis?
>
>Oh, and it does fit the plague, even if it proves not to be connected
>:~)
The main reason that this has nothing whatsoever to do with the plague
is that the symptoms are all wrong. With the plague you got nasty
black, gangrenous swellings called buboes in the groin and armpits
caused by haemorraging under the skin. Hence the alternative name -
Black Death. No medical source has ever recorded any red-coloured or
rose shaped markings.
Cheers
Gordon
______________________________________________
Gordon Hamlett, Peterborough, England
Take no notice of what the critics say
No-one ever put up a statue to critic - Sibelius
James Prescott
> > *****************
> > >Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
> > *****************
> All the replies posted have stated that this was NOT about the Plague,
> but give no real explanations as to just what it may be. Surely
> something with such a wide provenance would have some basis?
For what is often considered the definitive reference, see
Opie, R. and P. The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes. OUP.
1951. Rhyme number 443, page 364, in the first edition. There
is a more recent second edition.
They say "The foreign and nineteenth-century versions seem to show
that the fall was originally a curtsy or other gracious bending
movement of a dramatic singing-game...."
--
All my best,
James Prescott <ja...@nucleus.com> OR <pres...@acm.org> (PGP user)
Frank Hamilton
Hi,
I'm no real scholar when it comes to deciphering arcane ballad
references but here's what I've been told. Take it as a grain of
salt.
wood...@aol.com (Woodmover) wrote:
>In the beginning guitar class I'm taking we TRY to sing and play a number of
>Folk songs. However when I question the meaning of the Lyrics I'm given blank
>stares.
>Following is a few examples:
>In Tell Ol' Bill, Bill comes home in a "hurry up wagon". What is a hurry up
>wagon?
Ambulance.
>In Scarbrough Fair. What is a "cambric shirt".
Shirt made in Cambria?
>The Blue Tail Fly. What does it mean "Jimmie crack corn"?
Usta' be "give me cracked corn". Is it home brew or a small meal of
cracked corn meted out to slaves?
>Ring Around the Rosy. Is it about the black death, as I was told in class?
Some say yes, and there's a whole website devoted to saying "no".
They say there is no grounds for this in ballad scholarship.
Could be related to dancing around a rosebush? Maybe a variation of
the Maypole festival?
>And last.....In the Candy Man, has the meaning changed by usage to mean a drug
>pusher?
Don't think that's what a candyman is. I think that it means someone
who can perform specific sexual acts or euphemism for "great lover".
Now Mr. Tambourine Man might be a drug pusher.
These suggestions must be taken with a grain of salt. Again, I'm no
scholar but this is what I've been told.
Frank Hamilton
Abby Sale
Hamilton) wrote:
>
>>And last.....In the Candy Man, has the meaning changed by usage to mean a drug
>>pusher?
>
>Don't think that's what a candyman is. I think that it means someone
>who can perform specific sexual acts or euphemism for "great lover".
>Now Mr. Tambourine Man might be a drug pusher.
>
I forgot... Sam Hinton had left it at code that maybe we're not
_supposed_ to know. I can accept that. (Sort of.) I taped van Ronk
singing this about 1961. He got it, of course from the Rev. Davis. Van
Ronk says that he knows what all the sexual references in the song mean
but doesn't feel this is the right venue to explain them. It was a bit
snotty but then it was also very middle-class Philadelphia. Still, _did_
he know?