Oldest British Folk Music (pre 1200)?
b...@hrofi.demon.co.uk
I am trying to find out what the oldest surviving music of the British
Isles is. Anyone out there got any ideas. The oldest I have got so
far is 'Nobilis, Humilis', a song apparently written for the
cannonisation of St, Magnus in 1140AD. Does anyone know of anything
older than this?
Also, the tune mentioned above is more 'church music' than folk, does
anyone know any really old folk songs AND tunes.
Thanks in advance.
Ben Levick
Paul J. Stamler
: I wonder if anyone can help me.
The English dance tune "Nonesuch" seems to date from the 1300s or so.
There are also some ballads that seem to date from around the year 1000,
most notably "The Outlandish Knight", which has been traced to a
continental myth from around that time. Whether it was actually in
Britain at that time is another question.
The anti-semitic ballad "Little Sir Hugh" refers to alleged events in the
early 13th century, but I've no idea when it was actually composed, or if
it's known.
I'm told that the tune "Soldier's Joy", used as a dance tune in Britain
and the USA, has been traced to about 950, but in Scandinavia, not
Britain--again, don't know when it arrived in Britain.
Tough question! Does Child's "English and Scottish Popular Ballads" give
any useful hints?
Peace.
Paul
RJNA
Song" as being quite ancient, the remnants of a Druid counting song which
was taken over by Christian missionaries, so some of the symbolism was
changed. Imagine my surprise when I realized that this was "I'll sing you
one-o, Green grow the rushes-o" that I learned at Episcopal Church camp in
the 60s. Is this true? Anyone know anything about "The Dilly Song"?
Rebecca Arkenberg
rj...@aol.com
nti...@art.unt.edu
Nancy Hauser
>
> I wonder if anyone can help me.
>
> I am trying to find out what the oldest surviving music of the British
> Isles is. Anyone out there got any ideas. The oldest I have got so
> far is 'Nobilis, Humilis', a song apparently written for the
> cannonisation of St, Magnus in 1140AD. Does anyone know of anything
> older than this?
>
> Also, the tune mentioned above is more 'church music' than folk, does
> anyone know any really old folk songs AND tunes.
>
>
> Ben Levick
I know that Greensleeves is supposed to be the oldest song written down.
LEE PERKINS
You might go to a good music (not public) library and check out
the Musica Britannica series. I think the first volume of the
set has pre 1200 examples translated into modern notation
Ms. Lee Perkins UDC/Center for Research in Information Systems
Free & low cost S/W for case management, health clinics, & managed care
Fax: 202-282-3767 e-mail: lper...@cris.dcu.edu
Eric Berge
> I wonder if anyone can help me.
>
> I am trying to find out what the oldest surviving music of the British
> Isles is. Anyone out there got any ideas. The oldest I have got so
> far is 'Nobilis, Humilis', a song apparently written for the
> cannonisation of St, Magnus in 1140AD. Does anyone know of anything
> older than this?
>
> Also, the tune mentioned above is more 'church music' than folk, does
> anyone know any really old folk songs AND tunes.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Ben Levick
I believe "Sumer is icumen in" to be from the 12th century or before;
"The Prisoner's Song", which may be found on one of the LPs from
"Les Quatre Menestriers" is (if memory serves) from the the 13th.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
Jacey Bedford
<nha...@pcsrus.mv.com> writes
>b...@hrofi.demon.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if anyone can help me.
>>
>> I am trying to find out what the oldest surviving music of the British
>> Isles is. Anyone out there got any ideas. The oldest I have got so
>> far is 'Nobilis, Humilis', a song apparently written for the
>> cannonisation of St, Magnus in 1140AD. Does anyone know of anything
>> older than this?
>>
>> Also, the tune mentioned above is more 'church music' than folk, does
>> anyone know any really old folk songs AND tunes.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Ben Levick
>
It's "supposed" to have been written by Henry VIIIth, but lots of people
don't believe that either. He reigned from 1509 -1547 so if it were true
it would date the song at somewhere in the early sixteenth century.
Surely that wouldn't make it the oldest song written down??
Incidentally the tune of "Greensleeves" is shared with a Waits' carol
"The Old Year Now Away is Fled" which is printed in "New Christmas
Carols" 1642 in the unique black-letter collection of Antony A Wood now
in the Bodleian Library, Oxford. This information comes from The Oxford
Book of Carols, first edition 1928. (Mine is the 23rd impression,
published 1956.
Artisan has recorded "The Old Year Now" on the Christmas album, Bygone
Christmas, BFCD 112.
--
Jacey Bedford e-mail art...@artifact.demon.co.uk
ARTISAN
Phone ++(1484) 606230 Fax ++(1484) 606290
Snail Mail:- 10 Park Head, Birdsedge, Huddersfield, HD8 8XW. England
Eric Berge
>
> I know that Greensleeves is supposed to be the oldest song written down.
I believe that you are mistaken. Greensleeves only dates from the
mid sixteenth century; there are a number of tunes that are known to
be older.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
Bob Norton
>I know that Greensleeves is supposed to be the oldest song written down.
No way. The lyrics (and POSSIBLY the tune) to Greensleeves were written by King
Henry VIII in the late 1500's. There's a large body of wriiten song in the
English language predating that.
Jennifer Norris
>>
>>I know that Greensleeves is supposed to be the oldest song written down.
>It's "supposed" to have been written by Henry VIIIth, but lots of people
>don't believe that either. He reigned from 1509 -1547 so if it were true
>it would date the song at somewhere in the early sixteenth century.
>Surely that wouldn't make it the oldest song written down??
The tune isn't supposed to be by Henry VIII but he did write lyrics to it--so
did lots of people. If you want to hear his lyrics, check out Loreena
McKinnett's album The Visit.
Jennifer
J. Gruning
>Jennifer
There are some surviving examples of Greek drinking songs which date from
approximately 150BC. Kinda makes "Greensleeves" seem like a
johnny come lately pop song.
Best,
Tom Gruning
J. Gruning
>>Jennifer
Oops. I didn't notice that the original post was talking about "British"
folk music. It seems that the Brits started actually writing down some
secular music during the last half of the eleventh century. If anyone knows
of anything earlier I'd be interested in finding out about it.
Best,
Tom
David Wynne-Griffiths
jo...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (J. Gruning ) writes:
Forgive a Welsh Englishman butting in but before 1200 AD there was no
such nationality as British. At the period you refer to each nation
was still busy fighting the others. The folk music was very local and
would be perhaps Devonian, Cornish, Northumbrian or Cumbrian rather
than English.
We were then, and for most purposes still are, Welsh, English, Scots
or Irish, rather than British. I do not think there is even now any
such thing as British music. Tallis, Purcell and Elgar, for instance,
were English composers. Handel was a German, probably from Hanover.
The unions with Scotland and Ireland happened at the beginning of the
nineteenth century and since then our sovereign has been his or her
Britannic majesty, and we have been British subjects. Confusing I
know but there is similar confusion with regard to Italy, Germany,
Greece, Belgium, and The Netherlands none of which existed as
distinct nations until fairly recent times. --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Wynne-Griffiths - dav...@zetnet.co.uk - Wiltshire England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eric Berge
> Forgive a Welsh Englishman butting in but before 1200 AD there was no
> such nationality as British.
<snip>
> The unions with Scotland and Ireland happened at the beginning of the
> nineteenth century and since then our sovereign has been his or her
> Britannic majesty, and we have been British subjects
The union with Scotland came at the accession of James I (IV of Scotland)
to the throne at the beginning of the 17th Century, and ongoing rebellions
and civil wars not withstanding, has lasted ever since.
Queen Elizabeth II is a direct descendant of the Protestant branch of
the house of Stuart (Catholics are legally barred from the succession),
and is therefore the legitimate heiress to the throne of Scotland in a
direct (give or take) line back to the 14th century.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
George Hawes
>b...@hrofi.demon.co.uk wrote:
>: I wonder if anyone can help me.
>: I am trying to find out what the oldest surviving music of the British
>: Isles is. Anyone out there got any ideas.
It's obvious, innit? The oldest one even tells you so:
Adam Catch'd Eve
===============
Adam catch'd Eve by the fur bellow
And that's the oldest catch I know.
Also happens to be the shortest, too.
Except that some b*gg*rs cheat by singing the last line twice.
Or perhaps they've just done too many gigs for old folk (who
can't hear anything first time round)?
References:
Tim Hart/Maddy Prior: Folk Songs of Old England Vol II
Bernard Wrigley: Ten Ton Special
This gem of wisdom is brought to you from the Kipper School of
Folk Law. ;-)
Regards
George
b...@hrofi.demon.co.uk
>In message <1996Apr16.1...@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
> jo...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (J. Gruning ) writes:
>Forgive a Welsh Englishman butting in but before 1200 AD there was no
>such nationality as British. At the period you refer to each nation
>was still busy fighting the others. The folk music was very local and
>would be perhaps Devonian, Cornish, Northumbrian or Cumbrian rather
>than English.
>
>We were then, and for most purposes still are, Welsh, English, Scots
>or Irish, rather than British. I do not think there is even now any
>such thing as British music. Tallis, Purcell and Elgar, for instance,
>were English composers. Handel was a German, probably from Hanover.
>The unions with Scotland and Ireland happened at the beginning of the
>nineteenth century and since then our sovereign has been his or her
>Britannic majesty, and we have been British subjects. Confusing I
>know but there is similar confusion with regard to Italy, Germany,
>Greece, Belgium, and The Netherlands none of which existed as
>distinct nations until fairly recent times. --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> David Wynne-Griffiths - dav...@zetnet.co.uk - Wiltshire England
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All very interesting I'm sure, but if you look at the original
question you will see I was asking about the music of the _British
Isles_, a geographical location, not Britain as a nation. As such
all the different ethnic bacground you mentioned would be covered.
And incidentally a British nation did exist (albeit briefly) during
the fifth and sixth century. Although not a united nation the
non-Germanic residents of lowland Britain do refer to themselves as
British in their own writings.
Waes thu hael
Ben Levick
David Wynne-Griffiths
Eric Berge <edb...@ibm.net> writes:
> <snip>
The union of crowns should not be confused with the union of
countries. James VI of Scotland became James I of England in 1603.
The Act of Union with Scotland did not take place until 1707, and
that with Ireland in 1800. Until union they remained separate
kingdoms with separate sovereign parliaments, peerages and laws. More
importantly they remained completely separate nations with their own
distinct cultural traditions. To a very large extent this is still
the case which is why there is no British music.
The reference, as in the heading, was to British folk music prior to
1200 AD. At that time english music was only just beginning to emerge
out the traditions of the dozen or so previously separate kingdoms.
The folk music in England was that of the Celts, Angles, Saxons,
Jutes and Vikings with some French folk music brought over by the
Normans. Scotland was divided into six kingdoms with the very
different cultures of the Picts, Scots, and Vikings. Wales was mainly
celtic and divided into two main kingdoms and several pricipalities.
Ireland which had been invaded by the Vikings and the Scots was
divided into many petty kingdoms and only started to emerge as a
single entity after the Tudor conquest.
In short within these islands prior to 1200 there was a lot of folk
music from these many very different traditions, and a lot of it
survived locally for centuries afterward. From which of these
traditions a tune such as Greensleeves emerged we will never know.
Eric Berge
> In short within these islands prior to 1200 there was a lot of folk
> music from these many very different traditions, and a lot of it
> survived locally for centuries afterward. From which of these
> traditions a tune such as Greensleeves emerged we will never know.
None of them would be my guess, as Greensleeves is dated with fair
certainty to the first half of the 16th century.
Actually, I would be _astonished_ to find out that much of anything
was known about "traditional" "folk" (ie non-liturgical music popular
among commoners) during or before the early middle ages.
Which is why I wonder how you can state with such certainty that so
many "distinct" musical traditions existed, especially since the
northern half of England had been a pretty cosmopolitan place for
the three centuries preceding the Norman conquest.
I would also be very surprised that anyone could tell the difference
between Scots and Picts by the twelfth c. Or even between the Northern
Scots and their Norwegian neighbours, given the degree of intermarriage
that crops up in, for instance, the Orkneyinga Saga.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net