Willie McBride's Reply
Stephen Suffet
I received an e-mail request for this song today, so I decided to
repost it for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested.
Regards,
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY
Lyrics: Stephen L. Suffet ©1997, 1999
Tune: "No Man's Land" by Eric Bogle
My dear friend Eric, this is Willie McBride,
Today I speak to you across the divide,
Of years and of distance, of life and of death,
Please let me speak freely with my silent breath.
You might think me crazy, you might think me daft,
I could have stayed back in Erin, where there wasn't a draft,
But my parents they raised me to tell right from wrong,
So today I shall answer what you asked in your song.
Yes, they beat the drum slowly, they played the pipes lowly,
And they played "The Dead March" as they lowered me down,
The band played "The Last Post" in chorus,
And the pipes played "The Flowers of the Forest."
Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this lad with his tin hat and gun.
And call it ironic that I was cut down,
While in Dublin my kinfolk were fighting the Crown.
But in Dublin or Flanders the cause was the same:
To resist the oppressor, whatever his name.
Yes, they beat the drum slowly... etc.
It wasn't for King or for England I died,
It wasn't for glory or the Empire's pride.
The reason I went was both simple and clear:
To stand up for freedom did I volunteer.
It's easy for you to look back and sigh,
And pity the youth of those days long gone by,
For us who were there, we knew why we died,
And I'd do it again, says Willie McBride.
Yes, they beat the drum slowly...etc.
paul
>
> How does fighting for England in WWI, of all possible wars, have ANYTHING to
> do with fighting for freedom? Hit the history books again, son.
Saly, many of the volunteers for service in WWI did BELIEVE that they
were fighting for freedom, particularly in the early years. (as well as,
of course, many fighting for "honour", "patriotism", and some (my
sister-in-law's grandfather for one) to get away from the boredom of the
daily grind.
As in most of these cases, they didn't seem to ask whose freedom, to do
what, was being fought for.
Paul Burke
Alan Crozier
>Greetings:
>
> I received an e-mail request for this song today, so I decided to
>repost it for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY
This song assumes that Willy McBride was Irish. But he could have been
Scottish, like Eric Bogle.
Alan Crozier
Lund, Sweden
george_hawes
song: The producer of the "We died in Hell, they called it
Paschendaele" CD (the first of the Paschendaele peace concerts) did a
search of the Commonwealth War Graves records for "William McBride".
His point in doing so was not to suggest that the song related to a
specific individual, but rather that the scale of the slaughter was
such that there was a good chance of there being a match. As I recall
there were three, all Scots.
As for WWI being a "fight for freedom", Stephen is on rather firmer
ground. Certainly (indeed, as with most wars) that was how it was
presented at the time. More significantly, it is entirely accurate from
the "Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine" perspective Stephen uses (just like
the individual troops, the small nation and province were of no
significance to the militaristic great powers of the time). And -
rightly - the irony of the British recruiting Irish troops to fight a
war "so that small nations might be free" (a British recruiting slogan,
I believe) was not wasted on the Irish republican movement.
"Tis better to die under an Irish sky / Than at Suvla or Sud-El-Barra"
(The Foggy Dew).
While, personally, I don't LIKE Stephen subverting the universal
anti-war theme of "Willie McBride" into yet another pro-Republican
anthem (as if such was needed) I have to conceed he does so rather well.
G.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Stephen Suffet
>
>
> This song assumes that Willy McBride was Irish. But he could have been
> Scottish, like Eric Bogle.
>
> Alan Crozier
> Lund, Sweden
Greetings:
Absolutely true. Also he could have been English, but with a Gaelic
name. However, here in the USA "No Man's Land" has become standard fare
of so many Irish and Irish-American singers that Willie McBride has come
to represent the Irishmen who fought for Great Britain in the Great War.
Many did so, as we know, and they were led to believe that they were
fighting "so small nations might be free" as the words to "The Foggy
Dew" say. They were also promised that their volunteer service -- there
was no conscription in Ireland -- would hasten the day Ireland would
enjoy Home Rule (domestic self-government) within the United Kingdom.
Regards,
Steve
Stephen Suffet
>
>
> While, personally, I don't LIKE Stephen subverting the universal
> anti-war theme of "Willie McBride" into yet another pro-Republican
> anthem (as if such was needed) I have to conceed he does so rather
> well.
>
Greetings:
Eric Bogle may have had a Scotsman in mind, or even an Englishman
with a Gaelic name. But here in the USA "No Man's Land" has become such
a standard song for so many Irish and Irish-American musicians that
Willie McBride is taken to represent the Irishmen who volunteered for
service in the British Army during the Great War.
I didn't know that I had written "another pro-Republican anthem." My
Willie compares Dublin and Flanders to answer the criticism of the Irish
Republicans who conducted an anti-recruiting campaign during the war. By
doing so I thought I was risking the wrath of the truly hardcore "Up the
RA!" folks, but I guess an ignorant Yank like me should expect in-coming
flak from all sides. :-)
I plead guilty to "subverting the universal anti-war theme" of the
original song, but my that was the price of giving Willie his voice. The
Great War may have been a horror show beyond all expectation, but men
like Willlie (whether Scot, Irish, English, or Welsh) did in fact fight
"so small nations might be free."
Regards,
Steve
Stephen Suffet
>
> How does fighting for England in WWI, of all possible wars, have
> ANYTHING to do with fighting for freedom? Hit the history books again,
> son.
Greetings:
Men who volunteered for service in the Great War certainly thought
they were fighting for freedom. And the war did result in the restora-
tion of Poland, the independence of Czechoslovakia, the end of Turkish
control of the Arab Middle East, and the return of Alsace-Lorraine to
France. And need I point out Germany's rape of Belgium: a declared
neutral which had the audacity to tell the Kaiser that it was a nation,
not a highway! Oh, yes, Wilson's Fourteen Points are worth reading as
well, pop.
Regards,
Steve
Abby Sale
<george.haw...@san.com.invalid> wrote:
>it is entirely accurate from
>the "Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine" perspective Stephen uses (just like
>the individual troops, the small nation and province were of no
>significance to the militaristic great powers of the time). And -
>rightly - the irony of the British recruiting Irish troops to fight a
>war "so that small nations might be free" (a British recruiting slogan,
>I believe) was not wasted on the Irish republican movement.
I think it was a standard. England made expansive private promises widely
throughout it's holdings and the variously colonized mideastern world.
Parts of Africa & India got dragged in too on the the pretext that "if you
help us with this, then we'll help you later with that." It was very
noticable, eg, at Bogle's favorite engagement, Galipoli. Troops from all
over the world there to end the Ottoman Empire and gain freedom for
themselves from England.
Eg., That was the first appearance of the Zion Mule Corps. They were
guaranteed that the Jewish state would be created as soon as the Holy Land
was freed from nasty, evil Turkish rule. (The Turks were relatively benign
as historical owners of that area went.)
Similar promises about the Holy Land were made to various Arab interests.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abby...@orlinter.com (That's in Orlando)
Skate free or die!
george_hawes
<Suf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> george_hawes wrote:
> >
> >
> > While, personally, I don't LIKE Stephen subverting the universal
> > anti-war theme of "Willie McBride" into yet another
> > pro-Republican anthem
> Greetings:
> Eric Bogle may have had a Scotsman in mind, or even an
> Englishman with a Gaelic name.
I don't imagine he attached any significance to the origins of his
protagonist; I'd guess he cast Willie as a Scot because of his own
Scotish origins and through writing the song with the intention of
singing it himself. I'm sure he saw Willie as a "universal" individual.
On the other hand, "did the pipes play the flowers of the forest" does
(I believe) indicate the probability that Willie was serving in a Scots
regiment - as well as adding another layer of irony to the song, I
think.
> But here in the USA "No Man's Land" has become
> such a standard song for so many Irish and Irish-American musicians
I was totally unaware of that fact, and am amazed by it. OK, so I'm
even more dismayed at the universality of "No Man's Land"'s
universality being captured by the republican faction!! (But thanks for
the reminder of the correct title.) And before anyone accuses me of
censorship (as has happened in similar discussions in this forum in the
past!!) I'd like to acknowledge that OF course they are perfectly free
to use the song as they see fit, just as you are free to extend that
interpretation; I did start my earlier comment with "personally" . .
> I guess an ignorant Yank like me should expect
> in-coming flak from all sides. :-)
No criticism, just a personal view that I greatly prefer the
universality of the original. And certainly the additional information
about how "No man's land" is regarded in the US casts a different light
on your work.
> The Great War may have been a horror show beyond all expectation,
> but men like Willlie (whether Scot, Irish, English, or Welsh) did
> in fact fight "so small nations might be free."
Certainly they went to war believing that be the case, which I imagine
is what you are saying (although your remark is not entirely
unambiguous here).
And, as I understand it, Ireland came very close to having conscription
imposed on her, but "other events" overtook those plans.
Regards
George
> Regards,
> Steve
george_hawes
<Suf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Bob Norton wrote:
> >
> > How does fighting for England in WWI, of all possible wars, have
> > ANYTHING to do with fighting for freedom?
> the end of Turkish control of the Arab Middle East
that outcome, at least, is seen by those Arabs of my acquaintance as,
at best, a very mixed blessing . . . A view which seems to be bourne
out by Abby Sale's comment further down this thread.
But the real issue of freedom at that time, I suggest, was much more a
personal one than a national one; the squables of the megolomanic
rulers of the period had very little real relevence to those who were
slaughtered in their power games.
G.
and the return of Alsace-Lorraine
> to
> France. And need I point out Germany's rape of Belgium: a declared
> neutral which had the audacity to tell the Kaiser that it was a
> nation,
> not a highway! Oh, yes, Wilson's Fourteen Points are worth reading
> as
> well, pop.
Art Schwartz
day slaughtered half a generation in WWI
(Wilfred Owen summed it up in "The Parable of the Old Man
and the Young"
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one. )
But let's not forget the parody:
Well, how d'ye do, Mister Folksinger, sir?
You're as much of a twit as your forerunners were!
Sure, this isn't the way that a corpse should behave,
But your twaddle is making me turn in my grave!
You say we were fools, duped by leaders who lied
Yet you're wandering free through this fair countryside --
If it weren't for the dead that you won't even bless
You'd be hiding out now from the Waffen-SS!
CH: Did you preen yourself proudly?
Did you speak your piece loudly?
Did the slogans roll trippingly off of your tongue?
Were the words that you sang condescending
While you swore that your grief was heartrending?
We called it a price that we just couldn't pay
Defending small countries a long ways away
It was not till our friends were struck down at our side
That we stood and we fought and a lot of us died.
But we gave you a peace half a century long
Though nobody would know it from hearing your song
I know your excuses, you've got quite a store --
I just wish that we hadn't used them before.
(Chorus)
Must I really believe that you're missing the clues
As you watch CNN for the evening news?
When you think of the victims that you wouldn't save
Does it make you feel better to piss on my grave?
But as for appeasement and why it is wrong
You'll be learning yourself before too very long
For you're letting it happen again and again
And again and again and again and again!
(Chorus)
Stephen Suffet
>
> No criticism, just a personal view that I greatly prefer the
> universality of the original. And certainly the additional information
> about how "No man's land" is regarded in the US casts a different
> light on your work.
>
Greetings again,
I love the universality of "No Man's Land," too. And I like it's
anti-war message. I honor and respect the many people who out of con-
science resisted the Great War, but those who went off to fight "so
small nations might be free" or to "make the world safe for democracy"
or to stop the rape of Belgium should also be heard. That's why I wrote
"Willie McBride's Reply," to give voice to those Willies who saw the
Allied cause as a noble one, and who, in the case of Irishmen and of
colonial subjects, saw their service as an honorable way of redeeming
their own nations.
Regards,
Steve
Harold Groot
>a standard song for so many Irish and Irish-American musicians that
>Willie McBride is taken to represent the Irishmen who volunteered for
>service in the British Army during the Great War.
This may be true in the circles you travel in. It is not true in the
circles I travel in. It is rather risky to make such sweeping
generalizations.
Stephen Suffet
Greetings:
OK, let me refine my assestion. Here in the USA "No Man's Land" has
become a standard song among many Irish and Irish-American musicians,
and __among those musicians and their audiences__ Willie McBride has
come to represent the Irishmen who volunteered for service in the
British Army during the Great War.
Have I reduced the risk suffieciently? :-)
Regards,
Steve
paul draper
news:54...@purr.demon.co.uk...
>
>
> Rumour has it that Bogle is somewhat less than chuffed about this.
> I doubt William Blake would have been any too happy about the Tories
> adopting "Jerusalem", either.
>
Don't you mean the Women's Institute?
--
Paul Draper
0171 369 2754
Ken Hill
says...
>
> OK, let me refine my assestion. Here in the USA "No Man's Land" has
> become a standard song among many Irish and Irish-American musicians,
> and __among those musicians and their audiences__ Willie McBride has
> come to represent the Irishmen who volunteered for service in the
> British Army during the Great War.
>
> Have I reduced the risk suffieciently? :-)
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
The name "Willie McBride" could come from anywhere in the English-
speaking world. I believe that Eric Bogle, a Scots immigrant to
Australia, intended the song to be universal. The popularity of the song
among Irish and Irish-American musicians is a by-product of the success
of the Furey Brothers version. (They had a big hit with it, under the
"Irishized" title "Green Fields of France.")
--
Ken Hill Derry, New Hampshire, USA
ken_...@ne.mediaone.net ICQ 2236887
"Swallow a live frog first thing in the morning,
and nothing worse will happen to you all day."
Dana Charette
I just learned of Eric Bogle 2 years ago. That's very interesting to me
because I heard a Joan Baez recording of "...And the Band Played
Waltzing Matilda". From there I did web searches and got a couple of
his CD's. What's also, very interesting to me is you mentioning Wilfred
Owen. Owen happens to be my favorite poet and I learned of him and his
poetry in 1966, the year before I went to Vietnam. When I came back
from Vietnam in 1969 and got out of the army I went to Michigan State
University and helped form an Anti-war theater troup. I was at that
time that I got turned on to folk music as well as learning background
information as to why some nations go to war. I look at Bogle's song,
"No Man's Land" as a way of writing an anti-war song during the early
70's and having get a larging audience because of it not saying anything
directly about Vietnam. Bogle had gotten to Australia by that time and
Australia was sending troups to fight with us in South Vietnam.
Back to Wilfred Owen: I have committed to memory and performed his poems
on various occasions. I've also read his brothers biography of him,
"Journey from Obscurity." and also the John Stalworthy biography of
Owen. If you'll recall Owen was killed leading his men across a canal
in France on November 3, 1918. The war was declared over on November
11, 1918. Of all the meaningless wars WWI has got to rate pretty high
on any list of sensless slaughter. One of my favorite of Owen's poems
is called "The Next War." And this is it:
"The Next War"
by Wilfred Owen
"Out there, we've walked quite friendly up to Death;
Sat down an eaten with him, cool and bland, -
Pardoned his spilling mess-tins in our hand.
We've sniffed the green thick odour of his breath, -
Our eyes wept, but our courage didn't writhe.
He's spat at us with bullets and he's coughed
Shrapnel. We chorused when he sang aloft;
We whistled while he shaved us with his scythe.
Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against his powers.
We laughed, knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars; when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death - for lives; not men - for flags."
Maybe this is what Willie McBride would say if he could speak. Remember
Wilfred Owen isn't a folk singer telling us that war is a costly tragedy
or a politician telling us that it is going make the world safe for
democracy or the war to end wars. Owen is a soldier dodging shrapnel
and bullets and living in "...rain guttering down in waterfalls of slime
kept slush waist high..." --that's from "The Sentry."
I look at our military history and know that some people haven't
learned. When my gas price goes up at the pump here in California by
40-50 cents a gallon in the summer tourist season I'm reminded that we
won the Gulf War so that our oil companies could make any profits they
wanted. Is it a mystery to anyone that George Bush's on wealth is based
in oil. As a Vietnam Vet I remember that the year before we started the
Gulf War, George Bush cut my veterans' benifits. The December before
the Gulf War the Vietnam veterans suffering from agent orange got a
terrible settlement from the very government that kept saying that we
must "support our boys," as we were building our forces in Arabia to
attack the crazy man in Iraq. Our young men were going over there while
Kuwaiti young men were partying in Egyptian night clubs. I also
remember how slowly our government responded to "Gulf Way Syndrome," at
first saying that nothing was wrong.
Buffy Sainte-Marie put it well in "Universal Soldier" -- "He's the
unversal soldier and he really is to blame, his orders come from far
away no more. They come from him an you and me and brother can't you
see, this is not a way to put an end to war."
It's interesting that this discussing is going on at the end of the
second millenium on the eve of the celebration of the birth of "The
Prince of Peace."
Best regards,
Dana Charette
aka: d1cha...@aol.com
Stephen Suffet
>
>
> Buffy Sainte-Marie put it well in "Universal Soldier" -- "He's the
> unversal soldier and he really is to blame, his orders come from far
> away no more. They come from him an you and me and brother can't you
> see, this is not a way to put an end to war."
>
Greetings:
Yes, I know I am taking this one paragraph out of a long and
interesting message, but please indulge me. I like "Universal Soldier,"
and I have even sung it at times. It certainly expresses the pacifist
viewpoint very well, so my problem is not with Buffy Sainte-Marie's song
but with pacifism itself for its refusal to make the distinctions be-
tween the aggressor/oppressor and those who are resisting the same. I
wrote "Willie McBride's Reply" because I do believe individuals are
accountable for their acts, especially when those acts are voluntary,
but the word "blame" is not always appropriate. Should we "blame" the
Union Army for its victory over the slavocracy in the War for African-
American Liberation? Should we "blame" the Allied Powers for crushing
the Axis in the War Against Fascism?
Regards,
Steve
bogus address
Stephen Suffet <Suf...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Here in the USA "No Man's Land" has become a standard song among many
> Irish and Irish-American musicians, and __among those musicians and
> their audiences__ Willie McBride has come to represent the Irishmen
> who volunteered for service in the British Army during the Great War.
It has also been adopted as an Irish Republican ballad over here (at
least by Scots of the Hibs- or Celtic-supporting variety, and most
likely has similar significance among Catholic Irish communities in
other British cities).
Rumour has it that Bogle is somewhat less than chuffed about this.
I doubt William Blake would have been any too happy about the Tories
adopting "Jerusalem", either.
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
D1Charette
I play the guitar for myself and not in performance anywhere but this Eric
Bogle song, "No Man's Land" in quite a moving piece of work. If you play it or
have a copy of it read this poem by Wilfred Owen before you play the song. Its
called "Dulce et Decorum Est" for the last line of the poem. You see Wilfred
Owen was an anti-war poet of WWI. He was also an officer with the British
Expeditionary Force in France and was killed 8 days before the war ended. Many
of his poems do not have titles so editors sometimes use the first or last line
of his poems for the title. The last line of this poem is in Latin, "Dulce et
decorum est Pro patria mori." It means, "To die for one's country is sweet and
proper." Read it aloud and then play "No Man's Land."
"Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, -
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori."
That's the poem. The was an LP recording of the actor Richard Burton reading
many of Owen's poems that came out in the mid 1960's it was called, "The Days
of Wilfred Owen." It was also a movie short with water colors of the trenches
of WWI with Burton doing the poems as a voice over.
Best regards,
Dana Charette
Harold Groot
>> Stephen Suffet wrote:
>> > Eric Bogle may have had a Scotsman in mind, or even an Englishman
>> >with a Gaelic name. But here in the USA "No Man's Land" has become
>> >such a standard song for so many Irish and Irish-American musicians
>> >volunteered for service in the British Army during the Great War.
>> circles I travel in. It is rather risky to make such sweeping
>> generalizations.
> OK, let me refine my assestion. Here in the USA "No Man's Land" has
>become a standard song among many Irish and Irish-American musicians,
>and __among those musicians and their audiences__ Willie McBride has
>come to represent the Irishmen who volunteered for service in the
>British Army during the Great War.
>
> Have I reduced the risk suffieciently? :-)
Sorry to say, no.
Your statement still basically claims that ALL Irish or Irish-American
singers in the USA that use it as a "standard" believe that it refers
to the Irish volunteers. This is far too sweeping a claim. Maybe all
the ones that you hang around with believe this. I know some that do
not. They believe that it refers to a Scottish soldier. This can be
from knowing Eric was born in Scotland, it can be from the line about
playing "Flowers of the Forest", it can be from the research others
spoke of.
Willie easily represents the "Universal Soldier" and thus can be seen
as INCLUDING the Irish volunteers you speak of, and it may well be
that SOME singers over here believe that it represents them
specifically - but to claim that ALL the people you cite think of it
that way is absurd.
Claim "many" if you like - I'd allow that this might be true. Claim
"a large majority" if you must - I don't have a large enough sample to
claim you are wrong for the country as a whole. I simply know that
the Irish and Irish-American singers that =I= hang around with don't
think of it that way.
Caheragh
>Your statement still basically claims that ALL Irish or Irish-American
>singers in the USA that use it as a "standard" believe that it refers
>to the Irish volunteers. This is far too sweeping a claim. Maybe all
>the ones that you hang around with believe this. I know some that do
>not. They believe that it refers to a Scottish soldier. This can be
>from knowing Eric was born in Scotland, it can be from the line about
>playing "Flowers of the Forest", it can be from the research others
>spoke of.
>
>Willie easily represents the "Universal Soldier" and thus can be seen
>as INCLUDING the Irish volunteers you speak of, and it may well be
>that SOME singers over here believe that it represents them
>specifically - but to claim that ALL the people you cite think of it
>that way is absurd.
>
>Claim "many" if you like - I'd allow that this might be true. Claim
>"a large majority" if you must - I don't have a large enough sample to
>claim you are wrong for the country as a whole. I simply know that
>the Irish and Irish-American singers that =I= hang around with don't
>think of it that way.
I for one think Harold's statement is right on the money. In New England I
would have to say that the song was popularized not by The Fureys and Davy
Arthur but by Makem and Clancy. I never got the impression from their
performances that the song had the remotest connection with Ireland nor have I
ever got the impression from any of the performers in the countless pubs I've
been in that it was anything but a song about a Scottish soldier. I would even
suggest that the name "Willie" is more closely associated with Scotland than
with Ireland. Perhaps we should go to the source and ask Mr. Bogle.
george_hawes
<asch...@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> Not to belittle any of the serious discussion of how the empires
> of the
> day slaughtered half a generation in WWI
> and the Young"
> But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
> And half the seed of Europe, one by one. )
Or, Kipling in "A Dead Statesman" from "Epitaphs of the War 1914-18"
I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are feared untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young.
> But let's not forget the parody:
Oh, I'd happily forget that parody. In particular in that it seems to
confuse the two world wars (and repeat the myth that world war II led
to half a century of peace; it didn't, it merely exported war into the
third world).
This discussion reminds me of a recent British TV Arts programme where
a usually foolish critic [#1] commented that the English have an
obsession with the Great War which "a certain type of Irishmen" have
with the Easter Rebellion. Apart from the weakness of the parallel, I'd
say there was very good cause for Irish people to view the Easter
Rebellion as a moment of great (symbolic and practical) significance.
Just as there's very good cause for all of us to keep the Great War in
our hearts, as a symbol of the utter horror of war, of the stupidity of
nationalism, and the duplicity and dishonesty of politicians. Grossly
simplifying, it was an old-fashioned territorial/power squabble fought
with modern weaponry but without any new strategies for deploying that
weaponry; the weaponry merely made it necessary for the generals to
regard their "human resources" as expendable. There was no great moral
distinction between the two sides, and any such distinction as one
might draw pales into insignificance against the utter immorality
(towards the forces fighting on one's own side, at bottom) of how the
leaders conducted the war. And then, finally, the settlement managed to
sow the seeds of the Second World War which followed a mere 21 years
later . . .
It is becase there was no "great cause", no clear right, no great moral
distinction that we can condem that war as an abhorence - and (most
importantly) use it to remind ourselves of the evil as well as the
horror of war. As well as drawing much more positive messages from
"smaller scale" aspects of the war.
#1] They were reviewing a programme about the loss of the Sandringham
regiment at Galipoli. IMO their overall view (that the programme was
dreadful) was perfectly correct.
G.
george_hawes
<Suf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I do believe individuals are accountable for their acts, especially
> when those acts are voluntary, but the word "blame" is not always
> appropriate.
Or, in only a slightly different context, that we should "love the
criminal while hating the crime". A very appropriate thought for this
season (IMO) and a distinction I know I should be more careful to
maintain at times . .
george_hawes
late I'd like to express appreciation to all involved here for the
exchange of views, poems, etc. And the civility of the exchanges,
despite some strong disagreements. My faith in this community has
received a boost. And - most important - I suggest the area of common
ground is greater than the area of dispute.
I'm out of here for a week; greeting to all.
George
Stephen Suffet
>
> >> Stephen Suffet wrote:
>
> >has become a standard song among many Irish and Irish-American
> >musicians, and __among those musicians and their audiences__ Willie
> >McBride has come to represent the Irishmen who volunteered for
> >service in the British Army during the Great War.
> >
> > Have I reduced the risk suffieciently? :-)
>
> Sorry to say, no.
>
> singers in the USA that use it as a "standard" believe that it refers
> to the Irish volunteers. This is far too sweeping a claim. Maybe all
> the ones that you hang around with believe this. I know some that do
> not. They believe that it refers to a Scottish soldier. This can be
> from knowing Eric was born in Scotland, it can be from the line about
> playing "Flowers of the Forest", it can be from the research others
> spoke of.
>
> Willie easily represents the "Universal Soldier" and thus can be seen
> as INCLUDING the Irish volunteers you speak of, and it may well be
> that SOME singers over here believe that it represents them
> specifically - but to claim that ALL the people you cite think of it
> that way is absurd.
>
Greetings:
I never said ALL!
I only claim that from my experience living on the Sunnyside/Woodside
border in New York's Queens County and from going to countless Irish
festivals, "No Man's Land" (a/k/a "The Green Fields of France") has been
adopted by many Irish and Irish-American musicians. And regardless of
Eric Bogle's original intent, many of these musicians have taken Willie
McBride to represent the Irish volunteers in the Great War. Many of
these musicians say so explicitly when they introduce the song. Often
they make statements to the effect that England promised the Irish
people Home Rule and instead repaid them with a reign of terror, etc.,
etc.
Yes, Bogle's original intent could have been that Willie was a Scot,
or even an Englishman with a Gaelic name, which we know is very common.
Just think of Paul McCartney! And yes, "No Man's Land" carries a general
anti-war message, and much of its appeal is its universiality.
But it is also a song with a specific story line, that of a soldier
who died while serving in the British or in a British Dominion Army in
the First World War. That is the soldier whom I give voice in my own
"Willie McBride's Reply." To me he is not someone who died in vain, but
someone who, despite the horrific slaughter, did in fact fight "so small
nations might be free." I chose to make him Irish because of the context
in which I have so often heard "No Man's Land."
But Willie's nationality is only one aspect of my lyrics, and the
message would be the same if he were Scot, English, Welsh, Canadian,
Australian, etc. For those who missed the posting that began this
thread, I have copied "Willie McBride's Reply" below.
Regards again,
Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Dennison
> The last line of this poem is in Latin, "Dulce et
>decorum est Pro patria mori." It means, "To die for one's country is sweet and
>proper." Read it aloud and then play "No Man's Land."
The importance of Wilfred Owen, Ivor Gurney, Rudyard Kipling and
Sigfreid Sassoon and several other poets is they were there. They
reported in verse what happened and their feelings about the
experience.
Personally I find Mr Bogle's worthy efforts lacking when compared with
the songs and poems of the men at the front. He approaches the
subject quite rightly from hindsight and therefore is in danger of
being over sentimental and maudlin. IMHO it's not up to the standard
of many of his other songs and the version produced by the Furies is
dreadful and lacks feeling and sensitivity.
The song that sums up WW1 for me was found and adapted by Sarah Morgan
- the words were written by an anonymous Hampshire man serving in
India during WW1 but looks back to the battles at Mons.
Home Boys Home
Overseas in India the Sun was setting low,
With tramp and creak and jingle I heard the gun teams go.
Something seemed to set me dreaming as I lay,
Of my old Hampshire village at the quiet end of day.
Chorus
And it's home boys home, all amongst the corn and clover,
Home boys home, when the working day is over.
Ther 'll be rest for horse and man when the longest day is done,
And we'll all go home together at the setting of the Sun.
Brown thatch and garden blooming with lily and with rose,
The Meon running past, them how quiet now it flows.
Fields of oats and barely and the elder flower like foam,
And the sky all gold with sunset and the horses going home.
Ch
Old Captain, Boxer, Traveller, I see them all the same
Their tassel led ear caps nodding all along that leafy lane.
Somewhere a lark is singing and the swallows flying low,
And the lads are sitting sideways and singing as they go
Ch
Gone is many a lad now and many a horse gone too.
Of all the lads and horses in those old fields I knew,
Dick, Felat, Givennchi and Prince beside the guns
On that red road of glory, a mile or two from Mons.
Dead lads and shadowy horses, I see them all the same.
I see them and I know them and I call them each by name.
Riding down through Swanmore, when the West's aglow,
And the lads are sitting sideways and singing as they go.
Ch
And its home boys home, with the sunset on their faces,
Home boys home to those quiet happy places.
Ther 'll be rest for horse and man when the longest day is done,
And we'll all go home together at the setting of the Sun.
Regards
Jeff
Folkwise - Songs of the Waterways
details at http://www.folkwise.co.uk
GREG BRITTEN
additional vocal material from the poetry of Wilfred Owen. A stunning piece
of contemporary "classical" music, and some of the best anti-war classical
music I have heard, it is written for double orchestra, 2 (I think)
choruses, and 4 vocal soloists. Difficult to find a recorded version, but
they can be had. Not Folk music, but worth checking out if you are so
inclined. Incidentally, it was commissioned for the rededication of the
Winchester Cathedral (I believe), which was destroyed by bombs during WWII,
but features the poetry of Wilfred Owen inspired by WWI.
The composer is not a relative of mine, that I know of anyway.
Since I have not seen the whole thread, I will stay out of the discussion on
Willie McBride, except to remark that the version most often performed, as
popularized by the Fureys, has lyrics that are altered from the original
version written and recorded by Eric Bogle, in a small but extremely
critical way.
George Black <gbl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:94608213...@ham.ihug.co.nz...
> In article <3862B1F2...@emelnitz.ucla.edu>, Dana Charette
> <dcha...@emelnitz.ucla.edu> wrote:
> >Hi Art:
>
> >Back to Wilfred Owen: I have committed to memory and performed his poems
> >on various occasions. I've also read his brothers biography of him,
> >"Journey from Obscurity." and also the John Stalworthy biography of
> >Owen. If you'll recall Owen was killed leading his men across a canal
> >in France on November 3, 1918. The war was declared over on November
> >11, 1918. Of all the meaningless wars WWI has got to rate pretty high
> >on any list of sensless slaughter. One of my favorite of Owen's poems
> >is called "The Next War." And this is it:
>
> Good to see that some-one else knows of Wilfred Owen.
> A pity that he hasn't been put to music.
>
> strange meeting
>
> dulce et decorum est
>
> disabled
>
George Black
<dcha...@emelnitz.ucla.edu> wrote:
>Hi Art:
>Back to Wilfred Owen: I have committed to memory and performed his poems
>on various occasions. I've also read his brothers biography of him,
>"Journey from Obscurity." and also the John Stalworthy biography of
>Owen. If you'll recall Owen was killed leading his men across a canal
>in France on November 3, 1918. The war was declared over on November
>11, 1918. Of all the meaningless wars WWI has got to rate pretty high
>on any list of sensless slaughter. One of my favorite of Owen's poems
>is called "The Next War." And this is it:
Good to see that some-one else knows of Wilfred Owen.
GREG BRITTEN
> > Winchester Cathedral (I believe), which was destroyed by bombs
> > during WWII
Thanks, I thought I had that on the album sleeve, could not find it, and my
memory is notperfect!
> > I will stay out of the discussion on Willie McBride, except to remark
> > that the version most often performed, as popularized by the Fureys,
> > has lyrics that are altered from the original version written and
> > recorded by Eric Bogle, in a small but extremely critical way.
>
> Care to explain? Both versions are pretty vague in my memory now.
I am looking for the lyrics, but I cannot locate them for the moment (I know
I have the original somewhere!), I will repost when I turn them up.
However, in one of the verses the Fureys changed around a phrase,
substantially changing the impact of the lyric, with the original being much
more meaningful, and moving.
Simon Nicholls
Having read with interest the various posts concerning 'Willie McBride's
Reply' I would like to add my hapenny's worth.
I have spoken to many soldiers, both officers and NCO's about their reasons
for joining up and more importantly their reasons for fighting.
One conversation I will never forget was with a fella who had been in the
Parachute Regiment during the Falkland Islands conflict. He told me that
before they went
into battle their commanding officer had given them a "team-talk."
The general gist of this talk was that what they were about to do had
nothing to do with politics or politicians and most certainly was not for
Queen and Country. It was a simple question of them (the enemy) and us (the
enemy's enemy) - kill or be killed. It was the job they had chosen to do and
now was the time to do it.
It is left to the media (operating under strict censorship during times of
conflict) to justify the reasons for being there.
Politics (or the breakdown of politics) has no place on the modern
battlefield. It is simply the process by
which soldiers are brought from opposing sides to face each other. I am
fairly confident that throughout history this fundamental principal has been
true and that although any military commander worth his salt would feed his
troops any dogma, histrionics or political idealism he felt might enhance
their fighting skills or instil a sense of righteousness in what they were
doing it still comes down to the same thing - kill or be killed. This is the
horror and senselessness of war, well documented throughout history in song,
verse and prose.
Although the politicians come and go, the weapons change and the
battlefields shift continent, the soldier has and for the foreseeable
future, will remain, the basic tool of war.
It is not in the interests of armies (fighting for Governments or political
movements) to have soldiers full of humanitarian conscience.
To this end they are recruited young and to some extent brain-washed
throughout their military careers. I believe that by the
time a seventeen year old recruit in any army in the World has experienced
enough of life to question what he is told and maybe form his own opinions
he will usually have served enough useful time and be encouraged to leave
quietly. If it comes to him sooner then he will be labelled a trouble-maker
or an idealist and ridiculed or
ejected from the forces. During the First World War he would have been shot.
To this end I cannot condone your song, Willie McBride's Reply. It is simply
an expression of that sense of righteousness that is the weapon of
politicians and commanding officers. I cannot speak for Eric Bogle but the
lines, "The countless white crosses in mute witness stand to man's blind
indifference to his fellow man" sum up the sentiment of his song for me. It
is about the horror.
I am afraid that songs like the one you have written perpetuate the
glorification of war and the ideal of justification. The truth is that until
fairly recently any soldier who questioned 'the cause' faced the wrath of
his own comrades and officers. I believe this was particularly true for
German soldiers towards the end of the Second World War and for all soldiers
during the First World War. I imagine it is still true for those involved in
the conflict in Northern Island, whichever side they are from.
Nearly all nations continuously strive for economic and political dominance.
When that quest for power steps over a certain line the result is war. I
have been fortunate enough to travel around Germany a few times and quickly
learnt that Germany and it's neighbours had been fighting each other for
hundreds of years. The First World War almost seems inevitable when you look
at their history. It was the culmination of centuries of conflict.
The United States' involvement in the Second World War was as a result of
Japan's "cowardly" attack on Pearl Harbour, or so we are taught. I was lucky
enough to visit Hawaii a couple of years ago and spend a day in Pearl
Harbour. Before taking a boat out to the Arizona Memorial (where several
hundred men are entombed) we were forced to sit through a fifteen minute
'propaganda' video which explained that the Japanese had been trying to
gain a dominant hold in the Pacific Basin and that in an attempt to stop
this Japanese Imperialism America had imposed economic sanctions on them. It
struck me at the time that you could look
at this another way. Japanese Imperialism went against the interests of
American Imperialism.
If it were simply a case of defending the freedom and civil liberties of
"smaller nations" the Western Alliance would become involved in every
conflict in the World but we all know that we don't, only when we have a
vested interest.
I can't believe that any civilised person could stand amidst "the countless
white crosses" that fill the battlefields of Northern Europe and not ask
themselves, "Was it worth it?" "Couldn't we have found an alternative?" If
you have not done so already I hope that you get the chance to visit one of
the mass cemeteries. It is a humbling experience. If you have or do I am
sure you will come away with your own thoughts and feelings. Personally,
when I walked among the fallen a few years ago I was overwhelmed by a sense
of loss, tragedy and futility. Petty arguments about whether Eric Bogle had
an Englishman, Irishman or Scotsman in mind when he wrote the song pale into
insignificance in the presence of such suffering on such a scale.
Whether or not Willie McBride thought that his war "would end all wars" I am
eternally grateful to all the soldiers from whichever nation who gave their
lives. Here in England I suppose we have to believe that they did so in the
name of freedom and it helps us justify the whole bloody mess if we believe
that they sacrificed themselves for a just cause.
Or else how could we live with ourselves?
IMHO soldiers fight and die because politicians have failed.
On another note it is not uncommon for good songs to be 'adopted' as
republican/rebel songs. I have often seen people place their hands on their
hearts as if it was a National Anthem while I sing Willie McBride. Fields of
Athenry can invoke the same reaction. At a recent gig I introduced Dirty Old
Town as, "A song about Salford near Manchester" and was told by a rather
drunk Irish lady that I was talking rubbish. "Everyone knows that it's about
Dublin," she proclaimed, proudly. I did chuckle.
As a folk singer (of sorts) I tend not to worry about it too much. People
can read whatever they want into the songs that I play, whether covers or
originals. Whenever possible I try and sing "good" songs that mean something
to me and will hopefully mean something to the people listening (not
necessarily what they mean to me.) Some of the songs I perform may have a
political label attached to them (especially songs of suffering) by other
people but that is unavoidable. Personally, I draw the line at singing songs
about one race or another being bastards. I don't think they are very
constructive.
Anyway Stephen. I'm sorry for turning this reply into a bit of an essay but
your song and subsequent posts got me thinking about a few things. From that
point of view your song is great! I believe that any song that gets people
thinking about things is a fantastic achievement. This time of peace and
good will to all men seems a particularly appropriate time for discussions
of
this nature.
Keep writing and learning,
Si
Simon Nicholls
Having read with interest the various posts concerning 'Willie McBride's
Reply' I would like to add my hapenny's worth.
I have spoken to many soldiers, both officers and NCO's about their reasons
for joining up and more importantly their reasons for fighting.
One conversation I will never forget was with a fella who had been in the
Paras during the Falkland Islands conflict. He told me that before they went
into battle their commanding officer had given them a "team-talk."
The general gist of this talk was that what they were about to do had
nothing to do with politics or politicians and most certainly was not for
Queen and Country. It was a simple question of them (the enemy) and us (the
enemy's enemy) - kill or be killed. It was the job they had chosen to do and
now was the time to do it.
Politics has no place on the modern battlefield. It is simply the process by
which soldiers are brought from opposing sides to face each other. I am
fairly confident that throughout history this fundamental principal has been
true and that although any military commander worth his salt would feed his
troops any dogma, histrionics or political idealism he felt might enhance
their fighting skills or instill a sense of righteousness in what they were
doing it still comes down to the same thing - kill or be killed. This is the
horror of war, well documented throughout history in song and verse and
particularly prose.
Although the politicians come and go, the weapons change and the
battlefields shift continent, the soldier has and for the foreseeable
future, will remain, the basic tool of war.
It is not in the interests of armies to have soldiers full of political and
humanitarian conscience. To this end they are recruited young and to some
extent brain-washed throughout their military careers. I believe that by the
time a seventeen year old recruit in any army in the World has experienced
enough of life to question what he is told and maybe form his own opinions
he will usually have served enough useful time. If it comes to him sooner
then he will be labelled a trouble-maker or an idealist and ridiculed or
ejected from the forces. During the First World War he would have been shot.
To this end I cannot condone your song, Willie McBride's Reply. It is simply
an expression of that sense of righteousness that is the weapon of
politicians and commanding officers. I cannot speak for Eric Bogle but the
lines, "The countless white crosses in mute witness stand to man's blind
indifference to his fellow man" sum up the sentiment of his song for me. It
is about the horror.
I am afraid that songs like the one you have written perpetuate the
glorification of war and the ideal of justification. The truth is that until
fairly recently any soldier who questioned 'the cause' faced the wrath of
his own comrades and officers. I believe this was particularly true for
German soldiers towards the end of the Second World War and for all soldiers
during the First World War
Pearl Harbour...... I went to Pearl Harbour.........American
Propaganda......bla bla bla
i have never been in battle and pray i never will but whilst i am eternally
grateful to those who gave their lives for my freedom and that of Europe
during the last two World Wars i am also grateful to those that serve today
and protect me and my neighbours.......bla bla bla
It is not uncommon for good songs to be 'adopted' as republican/rebel songs.
Here in England I have seen people place their hand on their heart as if it
Simon Nicholls
OOOPS
Sorry I posted this twice.
Too much Christmas cheer.
#:-)
Stephen Suffet
>
> [snip]
> I am afraid that songs like the one you have written perpetuate the
> glorification of war and the ideal of justification.
>
> I can't believe that any civilised person could stand amidst "the
> countless white crosses" that fill the battlefields of Northern Europe
> and not ask themselves, "Was it worth it?" "Couldn't we have found an
> alternative?" If you have not done so already I hope that you get the
> chance to visit one of the mass cemeteries. It is a humbling
> experience. If you have or do I am sure you will come away with your
> own thoughts and feelings. Personally, when I walked among the fallen
> a few years ago I was overwhelmed by a sense of loss, tragedy and
> futility. Petty arguments about whether Eric Bogle had an Englishman,
> Irishman or Scotsman in mind when he wrote the song pale into
> insignificance in the presence of such suffering on such a scale.
>
> On another note it is not uncommon for good songs to be 'adopted' as
> republican/rebel songs. I have often seen people place their hands on
> their hearts as if it was a National Anthem while I sing Willie
> McBride. Fields of Athenry can invoke the same reaction. At a recent
> gig I introduced Dirty Old Town as, "A song about Salford near
> Manchester" and was told by a rather drunk Irish lady that I was
> talking rubbish. "Everyone knows that it's about Dublin," she
> proclaimed, proudly. I did chuckle.
>
Greetings,
Simon's essay is both well written and intwlligent. It is also rather
long. So I will respond to only the three excerpts above.
1. I never intended "Willie McBride's Reply" to perpetuate the glori-
fication of war. I only wished to answer the notion that all of the
lives lost in the Great War were lives wasted in vain. Remember that the
UK and the Empire did not enter the war until after Germany brutally
rolled through neutral Belgium on its way to engage France. As I say in
my lyrics: "Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine, if my life was
wasted, if I died in vain..." And were not the restoration of Poland,
the liberation of the Czech, Slovak, and Southern Slavic people, and the
promised liberation of the Arab people worthy war aims of the Allied
Powers? Yes, there is more than one side to the entire question of the
Great War. Eric Bogle's original song gives one; I give another. In
fact, I personally believe there is truth in both.
2. I've visited the graves of Europe several times, particularly the
American cemetary in Normandy. And I've dropped flowers at Point du Hoc
and along Omaha Beach. Yes, those were places from the Second World War,
not the first, but the I am certain the haunting feelings are just the
same. Also, as I said before, I agree that the McBride's nationality in
the original song is unimportant, and that if anything, Bogle probably
had a Scot in mind. I made my McBride an Irish volunteer because here in
the USA the song is often performed by Irish or Irish-American muscians
who have adopted McBride as one of their own. I wrote "Willie McBride's
Reply" in response to that use of the song, and I did not intend, as
someone claimed earlier, to write a "republican anthem"!
3. When I was last in Dublin, which was 12 years ago, "Dirty Old
Town" was on the radio all day long and in the pubs at night. Most in-
formed singers knew that Ewan MacColl did not write it about Dublin, but
the lyrics fit so well it was truly uncanny. (The gasworks, at least the
one in Dublin, had become a rather pleasant restaurant. I don't know
about the gasworks in Salford.) But "No Man's Land" (known as "The Green
Fields of France" among Irish musicians) and "Dirty Old Town" are not
the only songs to be Hibernicized. I've heard a "Geordie" who "stole 16
of the King's royal deer and sold them in Kilkenny..." as well as a
whaling song that began "Farewell to old Derry, adieu Malin Head, and
the fair land of Erin, I bid thee farewell..."
Good Boxing Day. And have a good New Year.
Regards,
Steve
D1Charette
As a matter of fact, the composer, Benjamin Britton, has written a very formal
piece called, "War Requiem". Much like any classical piece of music. There is
also a video tape of some philharmonic orchestra doing this music based on the
poetry of Wilfred Owen.
You mentioned "Strange Meeting" another powerful peom of Owen's that ends:
"I am the enemy you killed, my friend.
I knew you in this dark.
For yesterday through me as you stabbed and killed.
I paried but my thrust was loath and cold.
Let us sleep now."
Regards,
Dana Charette
of Bravo troup, 7th Aquadron, 17th Aviation
Brigade when in Vietnam 2/68-2/69.
george_hawes
address) wrote:
> "GREG BRITTEN" <GBRI...@email.msn.com> writes:
> > The War Requiem, by Benjamin Britten, is based on the Requiem
> > Mass
> > with additional vocal material from the poetry of Wilfred Owen.
> > Incidentally, it was commissioned for the rededication of the
> > Winchester Cathedral (I believe), which was destroyed by bombs
> > during WWII
> Coventry, not Winchester. The cathedral got it because Coventry
> was a major industrial manufacturing centre.
And - merely as a point of interest - readers may like to note that
Coventry is now "twinned" with Dresden (which also "got it" to no
little extent in WWII) - and the Britten Requiem has featured, on at
least one powerful occasion, in the two cities' celebration of their
twinning.
G.
ss...@my-deja.com
> > > I will stay out of the discussion on Willie McBride, except to
remark
> > > that the version most often performed, as popularized by the
Fureys,
> > > has lyrics that are altered from the original version written and
> > > recorded by Eric Bogle, in a small but extremely critical way.
> >
> > Care to explain? Both versions are pretty vague in my memory now.
The main objection, I believe, is to the Fureys' replacing
'Did the rifles fire o'er you as they lowered you down' by
'Did they sound the Death March as they lowered you down'
because of Republican connotations of the Death March. I have heard them
accused of trying to 'hijack' the song for Republican purposes.
Also, of course, Eric's original title is so much more telling than
theirs.
--
Susanne
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
george_hawes
> > > > I will stay out of the discussion on Willie McBride, except
> to
> remark
> > > > that the version most often performed, as popularized by the
> Fureys,
> > > > has lyrics that are altered from the original version
> written and
> > > > recorded by Eric Bogle, in a small but extremely critical
> way.
> > >
> > > Care to explain? Both versions are pretty vague in my memory
> now.
> The main objection, I believe, is to the Fureys' replacing
> 'Did the rifles fire o'er you as they lowered you down' by
> 'Did they sound the Death March as they lowered you down'
> because of Republican connotations of the Death March.
Excuse my ignorance, but I'm missing something here . . WHAT
Republican connotations of the Death March?? (I presume we're talking
the "Dead March from Saul" here; that's what most folks in the UK
recognise as the Death March). If that does indeed have Republicatan
associations I don't think those associations have prevented the
continued use of that piece of music for state funerals in the UK
(although I'm no expert on such events). Also, the firing of a salute
remains a feature of IRA funerals, in mimicry of military funerals -
although if anyone wanted to change the emphasis to a more Republican
one I'd guess "did the pistols fire o'er you" would do the trick.
Actually, is "o'er" a contraction the Irish use, anyway??
Of course it's rather unlikely that Willie McBride would have been
burried at all, let alone with full honours (rifles fired over him and
the pipes playing the flowers of the forrest); I've always assumed Eric
Bogle was being deliberately and forcefully ironic by posing a
rhetorical question in his chorus; i.e. saying "there's no way this
poor sod would have been properly burried, such honours were reserved
for those who calously ordered the troops to their deaths". But perhaps
that's reading too much in to the song.
> Also, of course, Eric's original title is so much more telling than
> theirs.
Indeed!
ss...@my-deja.com
george_hawes <george.haw...@san.com.invalid> wrote:
> > The main objection, I believe, is to the Fureys' replacing
> > 'Did the rifles fire o'er you as they lowered you down' by
> > 'Did they sound the Death March as they lowered you down'
> > because of Republican connotations of the Death March.
>
> Excuse my ignorance, but I'm missing something here . . WHAT
> Republican connotations of the Death March?? (I presume we're talking
> the "Dead March from Saul" here; that's what most folks in the UK
> recognise as the Death March). If that does indeed have Republicatan
> associations I don't think those associations have prevented the
> continued use of that piece of music for state funerals in the UK
> (although I'm no expert on such events).
I have to admit that what I wrote was dredged up from memories of an
article or an exchange of letters in a folk magazine several years ago.
I couldn't find it again now. I don't know the Dead March but I doubt it
is what the Fureys refer to!
> Also, the firing of a salute
> remains a feature of IRA funerals, in mimicry of military funerals -
> although if anyone wanted to change the emphasis to a more Republican
> one I'd guess "did the pistols fire o'er you" would do the trick.
No problem, for this is Eric's own line.
> Actually, is "o'er" a contraction the Irish use, anyway??
Eric is Scottish ...
> Of course it's rather unlikely that Willie McBride would have been
> burried at all, let alone with full honours (rifles fired over him and
> the pipes playing the flowers of the forrest); I've always assumed
Eric
> Bogle was being deliberately and forcefully ironic by posing a
> rhetorical question in his chorus; i.e. saying "there's no way this
> poor sod would have been properly burried, such honours were reserved
> for those who calously ordered the troops to their deaths". But
perhaps
> that's reading too much in to the song.
Not at all. That's how I've always understood it, too. But where's the
problem?
> > Also, of course, Eric's original title is so much more telling than
> > theirs.
>
> Indeed!
I'm glad there is one point on which you're satisfied! :-)
JBDrifter
>The United States' involvement in the Second World War was as a result of
>Japan's "cowardly" attack on Pearl Harbour, or so we are taught. I was lucky
>enough to visit Hawaii a couple of years ago and spend a day in Pearl
>Harbour. Before taking a boat out to the Arizona Memorial (where several
>hundred men are entombed) we were forced to sit through a fifteen minute
>'propaganda' video which explained that the Japanese had been trying to
>gain a dominant hold in the Pacific Basin and that in an attempt to stop
>this Japanese Imperialism America had imposed economic sanctions on them. It
>struck me at the time that you could look
>at this another way. Japanese Imperialism went against the interests of
>American Imperialism.
Politics, the reasons for war and the "psychological conditioning" of troops
aside, it pays to have your historical facts straight. Just what was it the
Japanese were doing in Manchuria? Or are you simply unaware of the history of
Asia, ancient and modern? We Americans are all too familiar with war in Asia,
regardless of whether the cause was considered just or not. I do not consider
the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor to be "cowardly" nor do any military
historians I am aware of. It was what is referred to in today's military
doctrine as a "surgical strike." However, to confuse well-documented Japanese
imperialism in the early part of the Twentieth Century with inferred American
imperialism is to show a complete lack of knowledge of the Pacific Theater and
American history of the early Twentieth Century.
Editorialize all you wish about the causes for war, the politics, the
propaganda. Just make sure you have your facts straight. You can be a sage,
or you can be a blowhard. But to be a sage, you have to have done your
homework.
Wally
Mary Garvey
deaths did not do it casually. I was in the Vietnam war and that was
essentially my job descriptiona and listen here that is not how it was..
mg
ss...@my-deja.com
Mary Garvey <mga...@uswest.net> wrote:
> I can assure whoever wrote this that those who ordered troops to their
> deaths did not do it casually. I was in the Vietnam war and that was
> essentially my job descriptiona and listen here that is not how it
was..
>
> mg
Mary, if youz re-read the snippet below carefully you'll realise George
wasn't saying 'casually' but 'callously' - would you deny this is an
appropriate word? - Susanne
> > > Eric
> > > Bogle was being deliberately and forcefully ironic by posing a
> > > rhetorical question in his chorus; i.e. saying "there's no way
> > > this poor sod would have been properly burried, such honours were
reserved
> > > for those who calously ordered the troops to their deaths". But
> > > perhaps that's reading too much in to the song.
Harold Groot
>deaths did not do it casually. I was in the Vietnam war and that was
>essentially my job descriptiona and listen here that is not how it was..
I believe you have taken this a bit further down the line of command
than Eric intended. My belief is that Eric was directing the "callous
disregard" bit at the politicians who =started= the wars (who are, of
course, too old to actually SERVE in the army). It is possible that
he also meant to include some of the general officers, since back in
WWI there were quite a few Generals/Field Marshals who seemed rather
oblivious to the casualties they were causing. The attacks into the
barbed wire backed by entrenched machine guns led to horrific
casualties for essentially no gain. Similarly, I believe the Belgium
army had lost a historic fortress to the Germans and spent huge
numbers of men trying to recapture this symbol - which had little if
any practical use in WWI. I'm sure any military historian could go on
and on. The man had to be given orders to go "over the top" by line
officers who were often pleading with the upper brass to stop issuing
the attack orders. The blame is not being given to the Captain
ordering a platoon to go at h-hour, rather to the General who ordered
the whole bloody useless attack in the first place. This, at least,
is my interpretation of it.
In general nations have much more professional military people these
days, though no doubt there are still "political generals" around.
The USA is willing to spend huge amounts of money trying to keep our
casualty rates down. Sometimes we succeed (Desert Storm). Still,
wars are not fought by only rich nations. Let's go back to Viet Nam.
I read several accounts claiming that the Viet Cong would sacrifice
toddlers barely able to walk - giving them timed explosives and
sending them over towards Americans, knowing the Americans didn't want
to shoot children. If these tales are true, perhaps this song is also
a lament for them. While Wille McBride may have fallen for propaganda
and volunteered, kids that young aren't able to even understand what
is happening.
george_hawes
(Harold Groot) wrote:
> >I can assure whoever wrote this that those who ordered troops to
> >their deaths did not do it casually. I was in the Vietnam war and
> >that was essentially my job descriptiona and listen here that is
> >not how it was..
> The blame is not being given to the Captain
> ordering a platoon to go at h-hour, rather to the General who
> ordered the whole bloody useless attack in the first place.
That was, indeed, what I was trying to say . . Like it or not, the job
of the military is to do what the politicians direct them to. That's
unchanged, from whenever, through WWI and Vietnam, to the present day.
However, these days (and, I'm happy to accept, at the time of Vietnam)
we expect the strategists within the military to brief the politicians,
strongly indicating the HUMAN cost of achieving (whatever) objective.
Wheras in the Great War there is ample evidence that the highest ranks
of the Military regarded their "foot soldiers" as expendible in exactly
the same way as bullets and shells were expendible.
Vietnam I happily blame entirely on the politicians. With the Great War
I think blame extends more widely.
And a note to sskw: I had no disagreement with anything you wrote;
sorry if it appeared otherwise. To me the song SOUNDS Scots rather than
Irish, which increases my dismay at the extreme Irish republicans
"adopting" it as theirs.
Regards
John Schuster
would like the lyrics. Can someone repost it or send it to me via e-mail?
Chord-ially,
John J. Schuster
umj...@bigfoot.com
Stephen Suffet
>
> Argh! I failed to save the original post on this and now have a friend
> who would like the lyrics. Can someone repost it or send it to me via
> e-mail?
>
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY
Lyrics: Stephen L. Suffet ©1997, 1999, 2000
Tune: "No Man's Land" ("The Green Fields of France") by Eric Bogle
My dear friend Eric, this is Willie McBride,
Today I speak to you across the divide,
Of years and of distance, of life and of death,
Please let me speak freely with my silent breath.
You might think me crazy, you might think me daft,
I could have stayed back in Erin, where there wasn't a draft,
But my parents they raised me to tell right from wrong,
So today I shall answer what you asked in your song.
Yes, they beat the drum slowly, they played the pipes lowly,
And they played "The Dead March" as they lowered me down,
The band played "The Last Post" in chorus,
And the pipes played "The Flowers of the Forest."
Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this lad with his tin hat and gun.
And call it ironic that I was cut down,
While in Dublin my kinfolk were fighting the Crown.
But in Dublin or Flanders the cause was the same:
To resist the oppressor, whatever his name.
Yes, they beat the drum slowly... etc.
It wasn't for King or for England I died,
It wasn't for glory or the Empire's pride.
The reason I went was both simple and clear:
To stand up for freedom did I volunteer.
It's easy for you to look back and sigh,
And pity the youth of those days long gone by,
For us who were there, we knew why we died,
And I'd do it again, says Willie McBride.
Yes, they beat the drum slowly...etc.
Mary Garvey
callously. And for someone who probably doesn't know what it is like to do
this type of thing, ...probably best not to speculate..
mg
ss...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3877FB7A...@uswest.net>,
> Mary Garvey <mga...@uswest.net> wrote:
> > I can assure whoever wrote this that those who ordered troops to their
> > deaths did not do it casually. I was in the Vietnam war and that was
> > essentially my job descriptiona and listen here that is not how it
> was..
> >