House of the Rising Sun
John Garst
following startling (to me) item. The microfilm was of issues of The
Mascot (New Orleans), around 1890. That paper was a sort of expose rag,
filled with great cartoons lampooning corruption and vice. In 1894, it
had a section called "Things Theatrical." In the issue of October 27,
1894, p 6, the following appeared.
**************
"The Rising Sun Roarers," the popular old village band from Rising Sun,
Indiana, will greet all those who attend the performance of Joseph
Arthur's famous American play, "Blue Jeans," at the Academy next Sunday
evening. The Columbia Quartette, composed of Frank Baird, first tenor;
Joseph Graham, second tenor; Daniel Davis, first bass; and Bernard
Tiemann, second bass; will also lend music for the occasion. Colonel
Henry Clay Riesner, the rotund and genial political prophet from Rising
Sun, will be on hand to say a few cheering words to the mill employes of
Perry Bascom and the people in the "Blue Jeans District." Old Jacob
Tutewiler, as irritable and possessed of an indominable a will as ever,
will be on hand to welcome home again his son Jim and handsome daughter
Nell. June will be there also, for the charming play of Blue Jeans
couldn't get on without this sweet and lovely girl, for she is the heroine
and saves her noble and handsome hunsband from the very teeth of death in
the sawmill scene shown in the third act. There will be many other quaint
and interesting characters and features shown during the progress of this
play.
**************
Am I imaging too much to suspect a connection between this play and the
song, Hous of the Rising Sun? Look at the elements that we know that they
have in common:
"Rising Sun"
blue jeans (work in the blue jeans district)
New Orleans (site of this production)
music
Is anyone out there familiar with this play?
I've learned that it opened in New York in 1890. It is also my impression
that it features some published songs, but I don't yet know what they
are. Of course, I doubt that anything like HORS would be among them.
I've also learned that Rising Sun, IN, is a real, not fictional, town.
John Garst
song, House of the Rising Sun? Look at the elements that we know that they
Bob Orr
singers long before The Animals popularized it in the 60s. Certainly could
have its roots in the play. I sem to recall a recorded version by Josh White
(late 40s?)
Bob Orr
John Garst wrote:
--
"The game's easy Harry!" -- Richie Ashburn (1927-1997)
"The less we understand a thing, the more variables we need to explain it." -
Russell Ackoff
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -- George Eliot
John Garst
<o...@tech.iupui.edu> wrote:
> Not sure how old HORS is but it was performed by old time folk and blues
> singers long before The Animals popularized it in the 60s. Certainly could
> have its roots in the play. I sem to recall a recorded version by Josh White
> (late 40s?)
...
> John Garst wrote:
...
> > Am I imagining too much to suspect a connection between this play and the
> > song, House of the Rising Sun? Look at the elements that we know that they
> > have in common:
> >
> > "Rising Sun"
> > blue jeans (work in the blue jeans district)
> > New Orleans (site of this production)
> > music
...
Recordings of HORS probably go back to the '20s, at least. Dixon,
Godrich, & Rye, 4th Ed, list "The Risin' Sun" (Texas Alexander, 1928) and
"[The] Rising Sun Blues" (King David's Jug Band, 1930; Ivy Smith, 1927;
Peetie Wheatstraw, 1935). I've not heard any of these, but I believe that
at least one is our song.
It turns out that the UGA library has a couple of copies of Joseph
Arthur's play "Blue Jeans." Despite the elements listed above, which are
held in common with HORS, I have found no evident relationship between
this play and the song. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the
incidental music for the play, which the publisher says is available
separately. Nonetheless, from what I can tell of that music, as described
in the play itself, none of it is likely to be related to HORS. Although
there are some racy characters and incidents in this melodrama, I find no
allusion to prostitution.
Robert Palasek
> I've also learned that Rising Sun, IN, is a real, not fictional, town.
Right across the Ohio River from Rabbit Hash, Kentucky.
Rabbit Hash was the home of Craig's General Store, and it was
the namesake of the Rabbit Hash Ramblers, a Cincinnati bluegrass
band of the late '60s.
S.O.
ga...@chem.uga.edu (John Garst) writes:
>
> Recordings of HORS probably go back to the '20s, at least. Dixon,
> Godrich, & Rye, 4th Ed, list "The Risin' Sun" (Texas Alexander, 1928) and
> "[The] Rising Sun Blues" (King David's Jug Band, 1930; Ivy Smith, 1927;
> Peetie Wheatstraw, 1935). I've not heard any of these, but I believe that
> at least one is our song.
>
No. I have heard all of those four titles, and none of them is "the
House of the Rising Sun".
The key phrases are as follows:
"The Risin' Sun" by Texas Alexander
My woman got something like the risin' sun. (twice)
You can never tell...etc.
"Rising Sun Blues" by Ivy Smith
I raised my window, looked at the rising sun. (twice)
Nobody can love me just like my sweat man done.
"Rising Sun Blues" by King David's Jug Band
Woke up this morning, woke up by the rising sun. (twice)
I thought about my good gal who done gone along.
"The Rising Sun Blues", by Peetie Wheatstraw
When I wake up every morning, I get up with the rising sun...etc.
> It turns out that the UGA library has a couple of copies of Joseph
> Arthur's play "Blue Jeans." Despite the elements listed above, which are
> held in common with HORS, I have found no evident relationship between
> this play and the song. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the
> incidental music for the play, which the publisher says is available
> separately. Nonetheless, from what I can tell of that music, as described
> in the play itself, none of it is likely to be related to HORS. Although
> there are some racy characters and incidents in this melodrama, I find no
> allusion to prostitution.
Did you check sheet music archives as for the published music?
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/ncdhtml/hasmhome.html
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/rpbhtml/aasmhome.html
--
Abby Sale
>Not sure how old HORS is but it was performed by old time folk and blues
First sound record likely Josh White in the 50's BUT, it seems White got it
from Lomax's "adaptatation" of the older Kentucky bawdy song - from the male
perspective. Most people's aural knowledge of the song will most likely
trace back only to White.
Legman suggests the "rising sun" motif many refer to an advertising logo as
was common in door signs. Or refer back to a good luck ref to Louis XIV,
the Sun King, who used the logo. Southern farmers of French extraction (he
says) used & use a rising sun motif or else a real sun flower good luck
charm.
I think Garst, himself noted:
Clarence "Tom" Ashley (Founder Carolina Tar Heels) appears to have taught
"House of the Rising Sun" to Roy Acuff about 1918 [or 1924]).
An early Acuff recording has not been reported yet. Very possibly because
it was a very bawdy song at the time.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Boycott South Carolina! - http://www.naacp.org/SCEconomic2.html
What is the sound of ONE side compromising?
lowes...@my-deja.com
ga...@chem.uga.edu (John Garst) wrote:
<snip>
> Am I imaging too much to suspect a connection between this play and
the
> song, House of the Rising Sun? Look at the elements that we know that
they
> have in common:
>
> "Rising Sun"
> blue jeans (work in the blue jeans district)
> New Orleans (site of this production)
> music
<snip>
I'll expose my ignorance here. I've heard a lot of versions of this
song, but the ONLY version I've heard that contained the "blue jeans"
reference was The Animals' rock version from the early '60's.
"My daddy was a tailor, he sewed my new blue jeans,"
Is this verse traditional or did they make it up?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kerry Blech
Abby Sale wrote:
>
> I think Garst, himself noted:
> Clarence "Tom" Ashley (Founder Carolina Tar Heels) appears to have taught
> "House of the Rising Sun" to Roy Acuff about 1918 [or 1924]).
>
> An early Acuff recording has not been reported yet. Very possibly because
> it was a very bawdy song at the time.
Roy Acuff
Vocalion 04909 The Rising Sun b/w Goodbye Brownie
I don't have a discography handy to give the date, alas. I suppose
this comes down to what you mean by "early Acuff recording." I think
this is from the '30s sometime.
I am not familiar, offhand (though I think I have it somewhere
at home) with Darby and Tarlton's "Rising Sun Blues" (Columbia 15701-D).
Is it one of the songs we are discussing in this thread?
--Kerry
--
Blec...@WolfeNet.com
"When you get above the clouds, you can do just as you choose."
- The Rector Trio, Asheville, NC 1930
John Garst
> ...I've heard a lot of versions of this
> song, but the ONLY version I've heard that contained the "blue jeans"
> reference was The Animals' rock version from the early '60's.
>
> "My daddy was a tailor, he sewed my new blue jeans,"
>
> Is this verse traditional or did they make it up?
Off the top of my head, I believe it to be traditional, but I don't have
the resources here in my office to try to check that out.
John Garst
Looking through the New Orleans newspaper, The Mascot, for 1894, I found
quite a bit of discussion of a bevy of oriental girls that were brought
into one house and enjoyed by all. I think they were Japanese. Thus,
this could have been a "House of the Rising Sun."
John Garst
wrote:
...
> The key phrases are as follows:
>
> "The Risin' Sun" by Texas Alexander
>
> My woman got something like the risin' sun. (twice)
> You can never tell...etc.
....
Can you supply the rest of these words? This one, at least, sounds like
it relates "risin' sun" to sex.
Thanks.
Cheryl
do it on a album, only in concert. Time to put it on an album Ar! :)
Peace!
>Subject: Re: House of the Rising Sun
>From: lowes...@my-deja.com
>Date: 09/20/2000 9:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8qaco0$gq4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <garst-18090...@garst.chem.uga.edu>,
> ga...@chem.uga.edu (John Garst) wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Am I imaging too much to suspect a connection between this play and
>the
>> song, House of the Rising Sun? Look at the elements that we know that
>they
>> have in common:
>>
>> "Rising Sun"
>> blue jeans (work in the blue jeans district)
>> New Orleans (site of this production)
>> music
>
><snip>
>
>I'll expose my ignorance here. I've heard a lot of versions of this
>song, but the ONLY version I've heard that contained the "blue jeans"
>reference was The Animals' rock version from the early '60's.
>
>"My daddy was a tailor, he sewed my new blue jeans,"
>
>Is this verse traditional or did they make it up?
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Peace & have a nice day! Cheryl Harrell-- A T2 diabetic Married To A T1
diabetic...
Personal Quote: "The best thing you can do for your diabetes is to always keep
your faith in Jesus no matter what".. By: My folksinger friend ADG
Gerry Myerson
> "My daddy was a tailor, he sewed my new blue jeans,"
>
> Is this verse traditional or did they make it up?
Did anyone contributing to this thread note my post in another
thread (on rec.music.folk), to wit:
There's a long article on the history of Rising Sun Blues
(aka House of the Rising Sun) at the Associated Press website.
http://wire.ap.org/APpackages/rising_sun/american_tune.html
may get you there.
Gerry Myerson (ge...@mpce.mq.edu.au)
Ralf Michael Thilo
Abby Sale schrieb:
>
>
> I think Garst, himself noted:
> Clarence "Tom" Ashley (Founder Carolina Tar Heels) appears to have taught
> "House of the Rising Sun" to Roy Acuff about 1918 [or 1924]).
>
Ahem. No. It has been me last november , I mean noting.
You can find my 02. c regarding the source and chain of tradition of HoRS in
deja.com/usenet under the subject "Source of House of the Rising Sun"
Michael
John Thomsen
>
>Is this verse traditional or did they make it up?
>
Anyhow, they DID change something in the text, simply not to be banned
from playing the record in old BBC.....
But as I recall it was not the above lines, but on the more sexy
subjects... ;-))
CXH0...@nifty.ne.jp
> Can you supply the rest of these words? This one, at least, sounds like
> it relates "risin' sun" to sex.
>
> Thanks.
Ok. But I'm not sure what he actually sings particularly in the second
verse.
My woman got something, just like the rising sun
My woman got something, like the rising sun
You can never tell when the work is done
It's no use to worry, but the day's been long
It's no use to worry, but the day's been long
Need to worry about your rollin'
because they're sure going wrong (?)
She got something round, and it looks like a bear
She got something round, and it looks like a bear
Sometime I wonder what in the hell is there
mmm... mmm...
mmm... mmm...
Sometime I wonder what in the hell is there
--
Abby Sale
wrote:
>Did anyone contributing to this thread note my post in another
>thread (on rec.music.folk), to wit:
>
Gerry, I did. But you know it's just a typical journalist's fluff piece
with little or no hard reasearch. Just story & "images." Their conclusion,
after wading through bunches of short pages is 'Was there ever really a
House of the Rising Sun? No one can say for sure. But in the end, it matters
little.'
Hojo2x
the same verses.
As I recall, Leadbelly called it "Way Down In New Orleans."
Any chance that that's an older version, or just another variant?
Wade Hampton Miller
Kerry Blech
Gerry Myerson wrote:
>
> There's a long article on the history of Rising Sun Blues
> (aka House of the Rising Sun) at the Associated Press website.
>
> http://wire.ap.org/APpackages/rising_sun/american_tune.html
Intersting article, but I tire of writers couching traditional
music in terms of popular culture. This is much less
offensive than Griel Marcus's ramblings, fortunately.
> wars. Clarence Ashley, born three mountains
> over from Middlesboro in
> Bristol, Tenn., sang it as a rounder's lament.
> The song, he said shortly
> before his death in 1967, was "too old for me
> to talk about. I got it from
> some of my grandpeople."
[snip]
> So it was out there. Ashley, who said he taught
> it to Roy Acuff, may
> have recorded it in the 1920s, and the Library
> of Congress cites (but
> does not have) a couple of 78-rpm records that
> apparently date from
> > before Georgia Turner sang it in 1937.
"...apparently date from before..."????
No "apparently" in the least. Jeez... Ashley and
Foster recorded it in the late '20s. Vocalion 02576
> [Pete] Seeger, with his new group, the Weavers,
> turned to Africa for the melodic "Wimoweh,"
> which became the foundation for "The Lion Sleeps Tonight."
but listen to the African recording "Mbube" by Solomon Linda's
Original Durban Evening Song Birds (name may vary), circa 1937.
> "When you delve into it, you realize how
> pervasive traditional songs are
> in our culture," says Peggy Bulger, director of
> the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress.
> "They're so much a part of us, but we
> don't even recognize it."
I like that quote. The sad part is that so many have been
altered and subjected to so much fusion that they are nigh
impossible to recognize. I'll take Roscoe Holcomb's singing
over anyone working pop music, thank you. It gives me
the shivers to just think about his voice.
Best,
kerry
John Garst
<ANTI-SP...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:16:35 +1000, Gerry Myerson <ge...@mpce.mq.edu.au>
> wrote:
>
> >Did anyone contributing to this thread note my post in another
> >thread (on rec.music.folk), to wit:
> >
>
> Gerry, I did. But you know it's just a typical journalist's fluff piece
> with little or no hard reasearch. Just story & "images." Their conclusion,
> after wading through bunches of short pages is 'Was there ever really a
> House of the Rising Sun? No one can say for sure. But in the end, it matters
> little.'
I must defend Ted Anthony here. I have no idea what his background in
music is, I assume that he is a journalist (I understand that he is now
covering the Olympics), but I think that he did quite a bit of "hard"
research on HORS. For one thing, he interviewed Georgia Turner's son. He
was also able to assure me (along with someone else who posted a follow-up
to my suggestion) that none of the "Rising Sun" items listed in Dixon,
Godrich, and Rye is HORS - he has heard all of them. Thus, I think that
he took great pains with this story, and I believe that he has much more
that he could tell about the subject.
John Garst
...
> > "When you delve into it, you realize how
> > pervasive traditional songs are
> > in our culture," says Peggy Bulger, director of
> > the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress.
> > "They're so much a part of us, but we
> > don't even recognize it."
>
> I like that quote. The sad part is that so many have been
> altered and subjected to so much fusion that they are nigh
> impossible to recognize. I'll take Roscoe Holcomb's singing
> over anyone working pop music, thank you. It gives me
> the shivers to just think about his voice.
I'm with you on both the quote and Roscoe, but why is it "sad" "that so
many have been altered and subjected to so much fusion that they are nigh
impossible to recognize." Isn't this the ordinary folk process at work?
John Garst
<th...@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
Yes. If it appeared in a message from me, it contained a quote from
someone else, perhaps Ralf.
John Garst
Well, this may not be HORS, but if I'm interpreting this correctly, his
woman is a prostitute and he is using "rising sun" to describe her work.
This at least establishes an independent connection of the "rising sun"
image with prostitution, I think.
John Garst
(John Garst) wrote:
I now see that I should have said "Michael," since Ralf Michael Thilo
signs correspondence that way. I have done as Michael suggested and
looked up his messages in the previous thread - very worthwhile.
Abby Sale
On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:33:13 -0400, John Garst wrote:
>I've been under the impression that Lead Belly got it from the Lomaxes.
I'm not aware of the "Way Down In New Orleans" cut, unfortunately. He cut
several versions from 1945 onwards titled "HRS." But all the current
stories are that he got it as least _later_ than Lomax publicized it.
Here's really everything I have that's at all reliable. I probably
summarizes the situation:
(Except that we used to live in the actual building on Rampart Street - not
the building Dylan used, that was two blocks up the street. But that's been
covered in the older thread.)
Ralph Rinzler's notes - I have the CD now - are that Clarence Ashley taught
HRS to Roy Acuff shortly after WW I, when both played together in a
medicine-show. He goes on that "Roy Acuff recorded this in the mid-thirties
as did Woody Guthrie, Leadbelly and Josh White in the 1940s. Alan Lomax, in
_Folk Songs of North America_ offers a text similar to this [the Ashley]
one."
luv...@aol.com posted 11/99 that "I have a 78 single that has Ernest Tubb
doing the male version of "House" in 1936!"
The first report from tradition by a folklorist is Lomax in 1937 & he gives
this in _Folk Songs of North America_ (1960.) He says there that the
'Rising Sun' occurs as the name of a bawdy house in other two other
unrelated songs and the tune may be derivative of other, older songs. "Yet
this song is, as far as I know, unique. I took it down in 1937 from the
singing of a thin, pretty, yellow-haired miner's daughter in Middlesborough,
Kentucky, subsequently adapting it to the form popularized by Josh White."
Legman/Randolph gives that Randolph first collected a version in 1949, BUT
that his 1950 source reportedly learned it from miners in 1905. A bawdy
version from male standpoint is given in the book. (See pp 250 & 173 of
_Roll Me in Your Arms_).
Abby Sale
>In article <7n0ksss0mamf6e12f...@4ax.com>, Abby Sale
><ANTI-SP...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>
>> Gerry, I did. But you know it's just a typical journalist's fluff piece
>
>I must defend Ted Anthony here. I have no idea what his background in
I take it back. Mea culpa. Seems I got the fluff pages at the cited web
site and never found the extensive main story. Happily, Mr Anthony seems a
decent sort and sent me a gracious note with the fuller details I'd
obviously (to him) missed.
http://wire.ap.org/APpackages/rising_sun/american_tune_story.html
I'd much like to see the full text of an incidentally cited song, however,
"Harry Cox sung for Lomax a profane old song called 'She Was a Rum One.' Its
opening: 'If you go to Lowestoft, and ask for the Rising Sun, there you'll
find two old whores, and my old woman's one.'" That opening wouldn't fit
into the versions I've heard or sing.
Anthony has, "as advertised" done extensive work and gone much further than
the easy sources. His facts are certainly as good as anybody's and my term
"fluff" is pure slander. I learned some good things in it. Thanks Gerry.
I don't like journalists' approach to research in any field nor the current
style of making a good parlor story of the events - articles seem to be
written for cheap magazines stories rather than news or facts. Further,
when journalists write on any subject not their personal expertise they
include the typical newbie's errors & misapprehensions & misinterpretations
& failure to cite sources. But that's what they're usually paid to do - a
quickie.
I've allowed my prejudice to impact on reality in this case and I do
apologize to Mr Anthony.
I didn't like the article.
Bah!
John Garst
<ANTI-SP...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
...
> I'd much like to see the full text of an incidentally cited song, however,
> "Harry Cox sung for Lomax a profane old song called 'She Was a Rum One.' Its
> opening: 'If you go to Lowestoft, and ask for the Rising Sun, there you'll
> find two old whores, and my old woman's one.'" That opening wouldn't fit
> into the versions I've heard or sing....
I'd like to see/hear that, too. As I recall, Legman concluded that this
story was bogus.
David Kilpatrick
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:01:40 -0400, ga...@chem.uga.edu (John Garst) wrote:
>
>>In article <7n0ksss0mamf6e12f...@4ax.com>, Abby Sale
>><ANTI-SP...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Gerry, I did. But you know it's just a typical journalist's fluff piece
>>
>>I must defend Ted Anthony here. I have no idea what his background in
>
> I take it back. Mea culpa. Seems I got the fluff pages at the cited web
> site and never found the extensive main story. Happily, Mr Anthony seems a
> decent sort and sent me a gracious note with the fuller details I'd
> obviously (to him) missed.
> http://wire.ap.org/APpackages/rising_sun/american_tune_story.html
>
> I'd much like to see the full text of an incidentally cited song, however,
> "Harry Cox sung for Lomax a profane old song called 'She Was a Rum One.' Its
> opening: 'If you go to Lowestoft, and ask for the Rising Sun, there you'll
> find two old whores, and my old woman's one.'" That opening wouldn't fit
> into the versions I've heard or sing.
>
If the song originates in Britain, the pub name might be fairly common on
the east coast - Lowestoft - simply because waterside premises might well
face the rising sun. Also, the Sun Insurance Company provided lead insurance
marks, in the form of a graphic or stylised sun (Teletubby style!). These
can still be seen on many 18th century British buildings, where they have
not been removed for sale as antiques. It's perhaps the most common fire
insurance mark. They are about a foot square, or a little less.
David
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Joe Felsenstein
Abby Sale <ANTI-SP...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>I'd much like to see the full text of an incidentally cited song, however,
>"Harry Cox sung for Lomax a profane old song called 'She Was a Rum One.' Its
>opening: 'If you go to Lowestoft, and ask for the Rising Sun, there you'll
>find two old whores, and my old woman's one.'" That opening wouldn't fit
>into the versions I've heard or sing.
There's a song on a Ewan MacColl record I have, "British Army Songs"
(put out in the US by Washington Records in the 1960's and probably a
rerelease of one called "Bundook Ballads" (Topic 12T130)).
It is called "Hand Me Down Me Petticoat" and has some lines that go
roughly (from memory):
"If you go to [NameOfBarracks] and you ask for number nine,
You'll find three swaddies standing there and the prettiest one is mine"
The chorus starts "She was a rum one ..." Sounds like this is a different
version of the one Harry Cox sang.
No "Rising Sun" in this one, and certainly not the same tune as HOTRS.
(I also find a "She Was A Rum One" song in Digital Tradition but that seems
different again).
---
Joe Felsenstein (j...@genetics.washington.edu)
Abby Sale
Felsenstein) wrote:
>In article <qokmsso7q2asfcvso...@4ax.com>,
>Abby Sale <ANTI-SP...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>>I'd much like to see the full text of an incidentally cited song, however,
>>"Harry Cox sung for Lomax a profane old song called 'She Was a Rum One.' Its
>There's a song on a Ewan MacColl record I have, "British Army Songs"
>(put out in the US by Washington Records in the 1960's and probably a
>rerelease of one called "Bundook Ballads" (Topic 12T130)).
>It is called "Hand Me Down Me Petticoat" and has some lines that go
>roughly (from memory):
> "If you go to [NameOfBarracks] and you ask for number nine,
> You'll find three swaddies standing there and the prettiest one is mine"
Well now that calls up another point. I've got that on _Bless 'Em All
(Br.soldier songs)_ Riverside. There four army songs records - I don't
know how they're related. I only have the one and it's extremely likely
the Washington is a repressing of the Riverside. That's all Washington
did, I believe. My discography shows:
Barrack Room Ballads Topic 10T26 (10") 1957
Bundook Ballads Topic 12T130 1965
Bless 'Em All (Br.soldier songs) Riverside RLP 12-642 1957
British Army Songs Washington WLP 711 ?
Joe Felsenstein
Abby replied to my reply to Abby. Abby Sale had originally asked:
>>>I'd much like to see the full text of an incidentally cited song, however,
>>>"Harry Cox sung for Lomax a profane old song called 'She Was a Rum One.' Its
and I had pointed out that this was similar to song on a Ewan MacColl
record of British Army songs. I've since listened to it and find that
the song is called "Hand Me Down My Pettycoat" and the relevant
verses and chorus go (correcting my earlier recollection):
"If you go to the Curra [Curragh?] Camp, just ask for number nine,
You'll get three squaddies standing there, and the best-looking one is mine
chorus: He was a quare one, fol-de-do-a-kerry-was
He was a quare one, I'll tell you"
There is no reference to a Rising Sun but from the other lines Abby gave
it is clearly a version of the same song, which is musically very unlike HOTRS
MacColl on the album cover says: "This lighthearted tale of a girl
betrayed and abandoned by her soldier lover was brought to the British
Army, via the Liverpool regiments, by Irish mercenaries. It is now
thoroughly naturalized and a barrack-room favorite everywhere though
its full flavor is only felt when a Dubliner or Liverpool-Irisher
sings it. I learned it from Dominic Behan of Dublin."
Since my reply Abby wrote that:
>Well now that calls up another point. I've got that on _Bless 'Em All
>(Br.soldier songs)_ Riverside. There four army songs records - I don't
>know how they're related. I only have the one and it's extremely likely
>the Washington is a repressing of the Riverside. That's all Washington
>did, I believe. My discography shows:
>
>Barrack Room Ballads Topic 10T26 (10") 1957
>Bundook Ballads Topic 12T130 1965
>Bless 'Em All (Br.soldier songs) Riverside RLP 12-642 1957
>British Army Songs Washington WLP 711 ?
My album I have is Washington WLP 711 (with no date). I found a good
discography of MacColl on the web, by a folkie from around here, John Ross
who has it at
http://www.well.com/user/johnross/discographies/ewanmaccoll.htm
He agrees with the above, and describes the Washington WLP 711 as first
of MacColl's records in a series of "1960s re-releases of earlier
Riverside LPs)". On the Peggy Seeger discography at
http://www.pegseeger.com/html/5_discz.html
the Riverside recording is described as "soldiers songs (some of the same
songs as BUNDOOK BALLADS and BARRACK ROOM BALLADS)". Bundook Ballads
is described as "soldiers' songs (all these tracks were later released on
BUNDOOK BALLADS (Topic 12T130)" while Bundook Ballads is described as
"British army songs; this is a re-issue and expansion of BARRACK ROOM
BALLADS (Topic 10T25)". Interestingly, two of the record numbers at
the Peggy Seeger site are off by one from those given by Ross and by Abby,
Barrack Room Ballads being described as Topic 10T25 and Bless 'Em All
as Riverside RLP 12-641.
An extensive Topic Records discography at
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/dis_txt1.htm
agrees with Ross and Sale and gives the names of the songs on the two
Topic albums. "Hand Me Down My Pettycoat" is not on Topic 10T26.
Conclusion: The second Topic album expands the first. The Riverside
album is mostly a reprinting of the second Topic album, though with
18 songs instead of 15 (some, such as Farewell to Sicily are omitted
as well). The Washington album reprints the Riverside one.
Oh yes, and "Hand Me Down My Pettycoat" is related to the "She Was A
Rum One" song but neither is related to House Of The Rising Sun.
---
Joe Felsenstein (j...@genetics.washington.edu)
jan...@webtv.net
Sun was by Woody Guthrie. You can call the 800 no. of the Library of
Congress and order it.