Pet Peeves; was Re: More Great Chapin Lyrics
ghost
>I just love this!!!!!!!
Why don't I go pick on someone famous & non-local whom we all already have
an opinion on?
OK, why pick on Tori Amos or one of those other professional fan-dancers as
an example of trash so worthless you don't *care* if they can
singer/songwrite when you can pick on a veritable *SAINT*, right?
Harry Chapin was a *horrible* songwriter.
Harry Chapin *died* rushing to a charity job, for Pete's sake.
Everybody loved him. He loved everybody.
He was the king of trite, though.
There, I've said it & I'm glad.
Could you guys please get yourselves your own newsgroup or mailing list
or something to post some more of this deathless Chapin poesy in?
I promise I will never, never say anything there.
He could write tunes, at least for the few of his songs I've had the
misfortune to hear, I'll grant him that. Not necessarily good tunes.
But tunes.
Bill Nash
> Why don't I go pick on someone famous & non-local whom we all already have
> an opinion on?
>
> Harry Chapin was a *horrible* songwriter.
>
> He was the king of trite, though.
>
> There, I've said it & I'm glad.
>
>
> He could write tunes, at least for the few of his songs I've had the
> misfortune to hear, I'll grant him that. Not necessarily good tunes.
> But tunes.
I'm just glad I don't have to live in your miniscule little world, just
your ego would make it feel cramped beyond reason.
Harry Chapin was a story teller, and never really cared about the music
that much... it was a vehicle. This is evidenced by the fact that his
brother Steve did most of the arranging for the band. He could spin
a story like no other person living or dead.
Go back and live with yourself...
Bill
Michael Bowen
wrote:
<snip>
> Harry Chapin was a *horrible* songwriter.
>
> Harry Chapin *died* rushing to a charity job, for Pete's sake.
> Everybody loved him. He loved everybody.
>
> He was the king of trite, though.
>
> There, I've said it & I'm glad.
<snip>
I'm glad someone said it. Chapin had an absolutely relentless, pit-bull
grasp of the obvious. Every irony was telegraphed miles in advance; every
drop of sentimentality had to be wrung out. He did great work for charity,
and for that he should be remembered. But he was an awful songwriter.
ghost
>In article <3o1gfa$s...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>
>I'll hazard a guess myself: Because folk is considered by many listeners
>to be a lyric-centered genre, any perceived lapses in those lyrics are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^
Not by me; not by most other fans & followers of *traditional*, meaning
"really transmitted by folk, down the centuries" music. Its a music-centered
genre which often has arresting lyrics, & equally often has nonsensical lyrics
or lyrics which over the centuries have lost much of their sense.
This "lyric-centered" business applied only to pop music too soft-edged
&/or underproduced to make it in today's increasingly narrow commerical
radio markets.
There is much neurological evidence showing that people remember words
tied to music in much different ways than they remember other things.
Linking geneologies, the history of your people or the details of
famous battles to recurent musical phrases made these important details
easier to remember in pre-literate societies.
I honestly don't see how many singer-songwriters can remember their own
songs because they have given themselves, & the audience, *no* *musical*
reason to remember them.
>Another, somewhat sad factor I'm noticing is a certain tendency to judge
>folk by its worst work rather than its best. The formula seems to be:
>Well, yes, X and Y and Z and A and B and C are superb, of course, but
>forget about them and consider the fifth song on J and K's third album.
>It's less than memorable, right? There you are - folk is dying!
Why put out an album with any known duds on it *unless* you are trying
to keep in the public eye by constantly releasing what has come to be known
as "product"? This is a very pop thing to do. If people would just stop
labelling themselves as "folk" a lot of the justly-deserved criticism would
cease. "Folk" implies that there's something of lasting value for the folk
in your "product". "Folk" asks that your songs & tunes compare memorably to
songs & tunes that have been preserved & transmitted without benefit of
recording media other than human memory for 400 years.
Deborah Stevenson
writes:
>I'm glad someone said it. Chapin had an absolutely relentless, pit-bull
>grasp of the obvious. Every irony was telegraphed miles in advance; every
>drop of sentimentality had to be wrung out. He did great work for charity,
>and for that he should be remembered. But he was an awful songwriter.
Yup. Another hard-nosed vote against his lyrics here. Doesn't mean you
can't like 'em, but Lord, they weren't good.
I love folk music, love singer-songwriters, and I don't think that folk
is necessarily cursed with more bad writing than other genres. But...
I think that folk music is particularly prone to the Well-Meaning-But-Stupid
syndrome. As long as a song is about the evils of people being mean to
one another, syntax, nuance, and clarity don't seem to be considered
important. Even when good folk songwriters (please, no comments about that
being an oxymoron--you know what I mean) turn out a lemon, this generally
seems to be how they err. If the words sound stupid when spoken without
the music, it's time to try again. (OTOH, if the words are brilliant
without the music, you probably shouldn't waste them on a song :-).)
I can overlook a lot when I'm thumping a dashboard, but I shouldn't be
embarrassed to sing along.
And no, I probably couldn't do any better, but hey, that's what being an
audience member is all about ;-).
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Steve Goldfield
Jon Weisberger <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
#>In <3o2mt1$d...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff) writes:
#>
#>>
#>>...
#>>
#>>Another, somewhat sad factor I'm noticing is a certain tendency to
#>>judge folk by its worst work rather than its best. The formula seems
#>>to be: Well, yes, X and Y and Z and A and B and C are superb, of
#>>course, but forget about them and consider the fifth song on J and K's
#>>third album. It's less than memorable, right? There you are - folk is
#> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#>>dying!
#> ^^^^^
#>
#>I'm puzzled as to why this seems to be a recurring theme in your
#>replies to various posts which do not make such a claim. It seems like
#>(in keeping with the subject:) a pet peeve...
#>--
#>Jon Weisberger, Cincinnati jo...@ix.netcom.com
I think he's missing the point in another way. I haven't seen
anybody in this thread argue that folk is dying or say that
there isn't great music being produced, even by singer/songwriters.
What I've argued is that it appears to me that there's more
tolerance for lack of talent, even support for performers who
to me seem to lack talent in either songwriting or performing
or both, in singer/songwriter audiences than in audiences for
other types of music I listen to. As a result, I find myself
at times involuntarily subjected to horrendously bad music.
Jon says he's seen some awful bluegrass bands. I've seen some
jamming, but I haven't seen a really awful bluegrass band on
a stage.
I'm not talking about good performers who have individual songs
I don't like; I'm talking about people who get up and do an
entire set that bombs. More often than not, it happens in an
opening act. I'm not even talking about personal taste; I've
seen people who evidenced some talent, even though I didn't
like what they did with it. I'm talking about people in whom
I could see no signs of any skill whatsoever. (Admittedly, I
mentioned a performer who can sing, though I find her songs
without relevance to me, but that was in discussing the problem
of songwriters who seem to me to be unable to communicate
anything of general interest to an audience in their songs,
which is another piece of this thread.)
I don't think the genre or the individual performer are done
any good when such performers get polite applause, and I think
it's a mistake to book them. As I've said before, they can use
open mikes and contests to hone their skills or to develop them
in the first place. And there's always the possibility that they
will never develop adequate skills for performance. There no law
that says everybody can. (Reminds me of the fellow who sings with
a small amplifier on the Berkeley campus.) Someone pointed out
that acts sometimes bring opening acts (and that did happen in
the case that started this thread--I don't know what Garnet
Rogers was thinking) but bookers usually have some discretion,
too. I've seen them reject opening acts more than once. As
somebody else said, for the good of the music and of their club,
a booker shouldn't have anybody on their stage that they feel
isn't up to entertaining an audience.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Steve Goldfield :<{ {>: s...@coe.berkeley.edu
University of California at Berkeley Richmond Field Station
Tom Neff
Deborah Stevenson <stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>I think that folk music is particularly prone to the Well-Meaning-But-Stupid
>syndrome. As long as a song is about the evils of people being mean to
>one another, syntax, nuance, and clarity don't seem to be considered
>important. Even when good folk songwriters (please, no comments about that
>being an oxymoron--you know what I mean) turn out a lemon, this generally
>seems to be how they err. If the words sound stupid when spoken without
>the music, it's time to try again. (OTOH, if the words are brilliant
>without the music, you probably shouldn't waste them on a song :-).)
Don't tell that last news to Schubert :-)
Assuming that folk music does have some songs (and by "have" I mean
regularly offered to us in concert, and/or committed to recording,
not something tried out at an open mike or workshopped some weekend)
where the lyrics are less than brilliant, can you explain how folk is
*particularly* prone to the phenomenon? Other genres are supposed to
be better in this regard? Have you perused the lyric inserts from a
few randomly chosen rock or (even) country or (fuggedaboutit) R&B
albums lately? And lest you respond with the name of some specific band
whose lyrics are cool, remember that I can counter with Di Franco,
Williams, Prine and many others; if the subject is folk *overall*, then
consider the other genres *overall* as well.
I'll hazard a guess myself: Because folk is considered by many listeners
to be a lyric-centered genre, any perceived lapses in those lyrics are
much more noticeable than they are in other genres. The overall quality
of the poetry and storytelling is probably higher, again on average,
than in almost any other kind of music; but so is listener intolerance
of imperfection.
Another, somewhat sad factor I'm noticing is a certain tendency to judge
folk by its worst work rather than its best. The formula seems to be:
Well, yes, X and Y and Z and A and B and C are superb, of course, but
forget about them and consider the fifth song on J and K's third album.
It's less than memorable, right? There you are - folk is dying!
--
Tom Neff :: tn...@panix.com :: <URL:http://www.panix.com/~tneff/>
ghost
>In article <3o2st2$i...@necco.harvard.edu>,
>ghost <j...@endor.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>In article <3o2mt1$d...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff) writes:
>>>In article <3o1gfa$s...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>>>I'll hazard a guess myself: Because folk is considered by many listeners
>>>to be a lyric-centered genre, any perceived lapses in those lyrics are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^
>>Not by me...
>Then how about letting someone else address the question. I am really
^^^^^^^
I don't have the floor or the microphone, just an overactive terminal.
Please, everybody, fire away.
>not interested in changing the subject back to your already-understood
>preferences in folk! This is supposed to be for group discussion, and
>I'd like to hear from others.
But how can anyone call it music if *there's no music*?
Call it "singer-songspeaker goo" or
"acoustic pop by people who can't afford bands", or something.
Else try to find me something from as recent an historic period as the 50s
that everyone remembers even though it had no tune to speak of. I'm serious.
We all remember some really weird lyrics *because* we remember the tunes
that carried them. This isn't rec.arts.bad-poetry-recitals.
And there *is* a rec.music.songwriters group, which I don't read
(I'm enough of a glutton for punishment to occasionally attend a concert by the
unknown songwriter, as its not alway pure torture, but I don't think I
want that much insight into their thought processes before I've at least
heard their songs).
You could have much the same discussion (& I'm sure they have them in the
appropriate groups) about whether free-verse is really poetry (I say it
isn't, though some of it is interesting) & whether the twain ever shall
meet between "free" & melody-inspired jazz (depends on the individual
musicians here, in my opinion).
Tom Neff
ghost <j...@endor.harvard.edu> wrote:
>In article <3o2mt1$d...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff) writes:
>>In article <3o1gfa$s...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>>
>>I'll hazard a guess myself: Because folk is considered by many listeners
>>to be a lyric-centered genre, any perceived lapses in those lyrics are
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^
>Not by me...
Then how about letting someone else address the question. I am really
not interested in changing the subject back to your already-understood
preferences in folk! This is supposed to be for group discussion, and
I'd like to hear from others.
--
MaskMaraud
> I'm glad someone said it. Chapin had an absolutely relentless, pit-bull
> grasp of the obvious. Every irony was telegraphed miles in advance;
> every drop of sentimentality had to be wrung out. He did great work
> for charity, and for that he should be remembered. But he was an awful
> songwriter.
Boy, are you in for return flames . . .
None from me, even though I obviously disagree and strongly believe, that
Harry was an excellent songwriter and storyteller. I've been writing (and
publishing) professionally for about twenty years, and have worked as an
editor and translator (mainly fiction) all those years, too. Taste aside,
I find very little wrong with Chapin's lyrics. On the contrary, his
command of the English language was remarkable and his ability to create a
certain atmosphere and memorable pictures is absolutely remarkable and
nearly unsurpassed. I wonder if you ever heard "The Mayor of Candor Lied",
"A Better Place to Be" or "There Only Was One Choice" to name just a few?
I'be seriously interested to hear from you about songwriters YOU think are
outstandingly good - and please don't cobain or crow me here.
Bob Franke
discussion might benefit from another perspective. Because I've worked in folk
music for a long time (one of my favorite singer-songwriters is Robert
Johnson, another is Woody Guthrie), and because I do have the temerity to
teach songwriting (having *learned* it, and wanting to pass on the
experience), the Tom Neff/ghost polarity begins to take on some of the aspects
of that "more taste/less filling" beer commercial, in spite of each of them
having some interesting and valid things to say. ghost's points about the
importance of melody and its physiological way of helping us remember lyrics
are points I teach in class; not only does melody (along with rhyme and meter)
go into a different half of the brain, in doing this it also bypasses a lot of
our emotional defenses. Because of this amazing power of songs, it's always
seemed to me something of a crime, or at least a deriliction of duty, to write
songs that don't say real things about our real lives. That's why I have such
a hard time with most of the music industry. I think the question of why one
writes a song in the first place gets asked too seldom (even here in
tradition-conscious New England), but gets answered in many different ways.
From first-hand experience, I also think that genius in songwriting, which is
presented as a rare thing by the music industry, is in fact ubiquitous: in
every songwriting group I've visited or taught there are one or two
world-class songwriters according to ghost's strictest criteria. Being able to
package that genius is another matter--in Biblical terms, "The spirit
(same word for wind in both Greek and Aramaic) blows where it will". So I like
to encourage songwriters rather than discourage them, because we need more
powerful artifacts to illuminate our lives, and the industry as industry is
not necessarily going to supply them (see below). "Below" is my lecture
outline for my classes. I start them with this lecture in the hope of getting
my students to think of both folk music and songwriting in a new way. I offer
the notes here for the same reason. I hope the formatting hold up; sorry if it
doesn't.
Notes for Songwriters--Bob Franke
Copyright 1989, 1990 Robert J. Franke (this piece may not be reproduced for
commercial purposes)
A. Why do it?
1. Big money in folk music--wrong class, see "Florida Real Estate I"
2. Healing/fun
a) Self healing
1) Songmaking requires paying attention to one's inner and outer lives, and
their relationship to each other.
2) It often involves paying attention to dream/imaginative activity,
and organizing that material to make it communicable to others.
3) For those of you who have been in therapy or 12-step groups--does
this sound familiar?
b) Your community
1) In native American societies, the shaman of a village would often
have a dream, and write a song about it with a chorus. In this way, the dream
of the shaman would become the dream of the community.
2) It is a truism that the more personal a work of art may be, the
better chance it has of being universal (read "The Wounded Healer" by Henri
Nouwen, and/or "Witness To The Fire: Creativity and the Veil of Addiction" by
Linda Schierse Leonard).
Psychotherapy is an individual affair and 12-step groups confine their
efforts to the needs of the group, but each activity creates a ripple effect
in society. Songwriting creates artifacts that then go out into the world to
facilitate the healing of the larger community, and occasionally the culture.
c) Your culture
1) Capitalism & the mass distribution system in this society
distorts the natural healing function of song. Song becomes a commodity
outside communities to be sold to them through mass distribution channels.
The needs of investors in these channels dictate that any song sold through
them relate to the largest number of people (a mile wide, an inch deep): prime
example, the adolescent male heterosexual love song. Meanwhile, 90% of human
experience that could benefit from song languishes without this form of
expression. (Meanwhile, socialism may create its own distortions, but that's
not our problem here in America, is it?)
2) Part of our responsibility as artists is to help create, foster
and sustain an alternative, decentralized, community oriented distribution
system for music.
a> Local coffeehouses/house concerts
1> Churches that have low rent and/or that can see the
ministry in this healing can take care of the real estate problem. Unitarians
have historically taken the lead in this.
2> House concerts are an important brokerage between traveling
or local artists remember..everybody's local somewhere) and
the local community.
b> Support public radio, and lobby it for a living culture.
c> Be persistent and friendly in dealings with local print media.
Let them know that you're here, and that this music is a
continuing interesting story.
B. Resources for songwriters
1. Your inner life--a birthright that you must claim yourself.
a) Dreams
1) Pay attention to them. Have a notebook or tape recorder next to
your bed. It's a discipline that gets easier with practice, and
the Workshop [Puget Sound Guitar Workshop in this case, or any
music camp]is an ideal place to start, in some ways.
2) Share them with someone you love and/or trust. Often someone who
knows and respects you may have some insight into the material.
Take whatever they or you may have to say with a grain of salt.
3) Explore the dream. In your imagination, take the role of every
person/creature/feature of the dream. Each part has something to
say to you.
b) Imagination
1) Often breaks in in response to fatigue or boredom. Listen to it.
2) Guided imagination--settle down, take the journey yourself step
by step. You can help each other do this.
c) Spirituality
1) Traditional spirituality
a> The religion of your childhood contains riches as well as
terrors. As an adult you may want to reexamine it, with an
adult's resources.
b> It helps to have other people around who use the same
vocabulary in describing the life of the spirit, shared
rituals, and a shared community that extends back into
history. Trust your instincts: don't hang around sick
communities with bad theology, but keep looking for a
community you can recognize as home.
2) Twelve-step programs: coming to terms with your limitations, with
others, can only help in discovering that within you which is
truly limitless. Again, trust your instincts.
3) Your own path--actually more accessible with the aid of 1) or 2),
but in reality the only path of healing. You can't decide what it
is, but you can decide to say yes to it when you find it.
2. Traditional music and other musics
a) Folk songs are the product of years of spontaneous editing by their
communities. Only the interesting verses are remembered, only the
compelling stories, only the beautiful (or useful) tunes. They
require only a basic level of musical technique to begin with, yet
offer opportunities for the most sensitive musician. They are a
standard that has kept me honest as a songwriter for 25 years or so.
b) I learned how to sing from hours listening to tapes of Billie
Holliday and Hank Williams. I don't sound like either of them, but
I know a lot more about phrasing and emotion in singing than I would
have otherwise. Take a poll of bluegrass flatpickers and ask how
many of them are Charlie Parker fans. American music is a rich
collection of musical traditions waiting to be used in the service
of a living culture.
3. Victorian and other poetry
a) Victorian poets were among the first to tackle recognizably modern
issues, and among the last to use rhyme and meter. Robert Browning
is my favorite--the "dramatic monologue" technique is one that has
been used by countless songwriters. On Stan Rogers' posthumous album
of his family's favorite songs, you can see the connection between
this tradition and his work.
b) Keep an ear out for rap and reggae music. There are riches here.
c) There is a newly published collection of the poetry of the late
Philip Larkin, my candidate for the best poet of the 20th century.
d) If you've got another language than English, don't limit yourself to
English. The Quebecois _chansonnier_ and Latin American _nueva
cancion_ traditions are particularly rich.
4. Each other
a) Modern songwriting in flower (a partial list)
1) Bruce Cockburn has never stopped being a superb songwriter,
whatever idiom he uses.
2) Ditto Richard Thompson.
3) Bob Dylan and
4) Joni Mitchell opened up and defined the field in the sixties.
5) Women's music has produced a number of songwriters dedicated to
expressing the truth with courage and style, including but not
limited to
a> Chris Williamson and
b> Margie Adam
c> Judy Fjell
6) The "folk circuit"
a> the late Kate Wolf, the late Stan Rogers and established
coffeehouse performers: Betsy Rose, Si Kahn, Claudia Schmidt,
Pete Sutherland, Malcolm Dalglish, Gordon Bok, Linda
Waterfall, Carol McComb, John Gorka, etc. I emphasize
N. American performers because I emphasize the live music
experience, and it's where I live; if you find yourself on
another continent there'll be a whole new world of live music
culture to explore. But the good stuff is where you live if
you're committed to finding and supporting it there.
b> newer arrivals: David Wilcox, Greg Scott, T. R. Richie, Kat
Eggleston, Heidi Muller, Joe Weihe, [except for David, all
resident in the Pacific Northwest; this list was chosen for
the Puget Sound Guitar Workshop]etc. Amongst the usual
chaff of media-distorted music there are younger and/or less
active people who have gotten the point of a living culture,
and are giving it their own often very mature gifts. They're
worth looking for, and worth supporting.
b) Songwriting groups: Out of any dozen people committed
enough to get together weekly and share and critique each
other's new work (that's writing a song a week), within nine
months' gestation you will get:
1) 12 much-improved songwriters and much matured human beings;
2) 5 or 6 real resources to their local musical community, and
3) 2 or 3 world-class songwriters. I have seen this come to flower
myself more than once.
C. In conclusion: You have within yourself and within your community the
resources to develop as an emotionally whole human being in an emotionally
whole community, and who knows, maybe even an emotionally whole culture better
equipped to make decisions about the survival of our species.
Bob Franke Telephone Pole Music
rfr...@ix.netcom.com 106 Winona Street
508/535-3331 voice/fax Peabody, MA 01960
"The road of Excess leads to the palace of Wisdom."--Wm. Blake
Robert G McCausland
about Harry Chapin:
>He was the king of trite, though.
>He could write tunes, at least for the few of his songs I've had the
>misfortune to hear, I'll grant him that. Not necessarily good tunes.
>But tunes.
I've a curious response to this one, ghost; one which probably shows I'm
spending entirely too much time on-line. I'm not here to take issue or
exception to your position on Chapin... but ...
One of Chapin's songs came to mind, recently, oddly enough,
when I was reading one of *your* posts ("Vicious Exposition Part
somethingth") -- many of which I've taken to saving and sharing with
friends, by the way, as interesting examples of well-written literary
criticism; I don't know, kind of a cross between Hunter Thompson, and
who... Oscar Wilde? Jonathan Swift? I don't remember my english lit well
enough at all, but there is a tradition of not-quite-vitriolic but
in-no-way-meek exhortation against flabby sentiment and execution which I
am pleased to see carried on in the folk music genre.
This one Chapin song affected me greatly when I heard it back
in 74/75 or so, and it came to mind when you commented about some of the
service staff there at Harvard (janitors?) who sing better and should
more of a shot at the stage than some of these others.
You may know the one, the title eludes me, something like "Mr. Tanner."
In the song, the subject, a tailor, sings to himself, beautifully, and
from the heart, so movingly that he is urged to
Tom Neff
>>third album. It's less than memorable, right? There you are - folk is
>>dying!
> ^^^^^
>
>I'm puzzled as to why this seems to be a recurring theme in your
#1, of course I'm exaggerating a little bit, but "folk is dying" can
be taken as a stand-in for any and all of the laundry list of
grumbles some folks have been voicing in this *general* thread. (I
usually prefer to address the topic as a whole in one place rather
than tacking 16 itty bitty messages onto a thread at once.)
#2, if you don't think people are claiming stuff pretty close to
this, just remember that compendium of quotes from people like Utah
Phillips that someone posted a while back. You can get people to
take some very disdainful shots at singer/songwriter craft and
direction these days. If you disagree as I do, and think that s/s is
strong and getting stronger every year, that's marvelous, but I'd
prefer to hear you talk about that than engage in meta-discussion
about my posting style. :-)
#3, I definitely do have a pet peeve with people who knock music,
yes. There's too much greatness in too many genres for anyone to
waste time being a "fan" of some niche they don't really like.
Fortunately, I have found that folk's critics are mostly really
supportive and loving of the music and basically just want it to be
better - there's only a thin (if disproportionately visible) layer of
genuine sourpusses.
Jon Weisberger
>
>In article <3o35a8$o...@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Jon Weisberger <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <3o2mt1$d...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff) writes:
>>>third album. It's less than memorable, right? There you are -
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>I'm puzzled as to why this seems to be a recurring theme in your
>>replies to various posts which do not make such a claim. It seems
>>like (in keeping with the subject:) a pet peeve...
>
> #1, of course I'm exaggerating a little bit, but "folk is dying" can
>be taken as a stand-in for any and all of the laundry list of
>grumbles some folks have been voicing in this *general* thread.
It's not a very good one, IMO; as far as I can tell, the "grumbles"
have to do with singer/songwriters, their merits and demerits; some
have been quite specific in whom they're talking about, others more
general, but I don't see the equation, myself.
>
> #2, if you don't think people are claiming stuff pretty close to
>this, just remember that compendium of quotes from people like Utah
>Phillips that someone posted a while back. You can get people to
>take some very disdainful shots at singer/songwriter craft and
>direction these days. If you disagree as I do, and think that s/s is
>strong and getting stronger every year, that's marvelous, but I'd
>prefer to hear you talk about that than engage in meta-discussion
>about my posting style. :-)
I missed that compendium, I guess; I've only been reading in r.m.f for
a pretty short while. Nor did I mean for my comment to be taken as
being about your posting style, which seems fine to me <g>. I just
didn't - and, I'm afraid, still don't - see a connection between what
people were posting and what you summarized their views as.
Part of that, I guess, is because I don't equate folk music with
singer/songwriter music, which I consider to be a subset (and arguably
a pretty small one) of the former - so I don't see any organic reason
to take comments about the latter as comments about the former.
So my question wasn't meant to carry any hidden under-currents, and
it's been answered. Thanks <g>.
--
Jon Weisberger, Cincinnati jo...@ix.netcom.com
David McLallen
>
>In article <3o4c3m$o...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>maskm...@aol.com (MaskMaraud) writes:
>
>> mbo...@eideti.com (Michael Bowen) wrote:
>> > I'm glad someone said it. Chapin had an absolutely relentless, pit-bull
>> > grasp of the obvious. Every irony was telegraphed miles in advance;
>> > every drop of sentimentality had to be wrung out. He did great work
>> > for charity, and for that he should be remembered. But he was an awful
>> > songwriter.
>
>the kinds of situations they sometimes found themselves in. He didn't
>follow any formula, just told it like it was. To quote him from a song
>which says it all: "A song don't have much meaning if it don't have
>nothing to say" (from Stranger and His Melody) Harry Chapin had an
>awful lot to say, and, IMHO, said it very well. He is sorely missed.
>
>
>Don A. Berkowitz
Bravo, Don. Well said. How can anyone possibly think that Harry Chapin
was an awful songwriter??? I believe now as I have believed for over twenty
years that Harry was not only a *marvelous* songwriter, with an absolutely
wonderful sense of storytelling, but probably overall the most important
songwriter of the twentieth century. Yes, I believe that. No, I'm not blowing it
out of proportion. Anyone who can write "A Better Place To Be" "W*O*L*D"
"Taxi" "The Night That Made America Famous" "Flowers Are Red" and so many
other exceedingly serious, socially conscious songs and still have enough of a
sense of humor to come up with "Six String Orchestra" and "30,000 Pounds of
Bananas" is, in my humble opinion, someone that this world simply could not have
done without.
David
don_b
> mbo...@eideti.com (Michael Bowen) wrote:
> > I'm glad someone said it. Chapin had an absolutely relentless, pit-bull
> > grasp of the obvious. Every irony was telegraphed miles in advance;
> > every drop of sentimentality had to be wrung out. He did great work
> > for charity, and for that he should be remembered. But he was an awful
> > songwriter.
Frankly, I think you're way off-base here. Harry sung about people and
the kinds of situations they sometimes found themselves in. He didn't
follow any formula, just told it like it was. To quote him from a song
which says it all: "A song don't have much meaning if it don't have
nothing to say" (from Stranger and His Melody) Harry Chapin had an
awful lot to say, and, IMHO, said it very well. He is sorely missed.
Don A. Berkowitz ************************************
Chesapeake College * Half the time *
Wye Mills, MD * Thinking of what might have been *
do...@annap.infi.net * Half thinking just as well *
* --- Harry Chapin *
************************************
Inlinebob
have to slam Kurt Cobain? How self righteous do you have to be to not
acknowldge young talent? Man, you all sit back and wonder why GenXers
don't follow your leads, it's because your so damn provinicial. Hey, take
a look at this list of favortie songwriters of mine (I am a 27 year old
male), and maybe it will enlighten you to musical tolerance. The age of
the pot smoking folkie/with/an/attitude is long gone. The next crop of
folk fans is in it for the honesty, not the grass, and Cobain was as
honest as any. Am I insinuating Cobain worte folk music? You figure it
out.
Have you every listened to "Pennyroyal Tea"? Have you? Can you name an
artist besides Cobain who ever painted such a bleak picture of thier own
misery, a misery which styemmed from chronic stomach disorders? That's
honesty, my firend, and it is a heck of a lot better than most new music
of any genre. Get off your horse and open your eyes. There's a bisg world
out there.
My Top Ten Songwirters (in no order)
Kurt Cobain
Harry Chapin
Robbie Robertson
Bruce Springsteen
Merchant, et al
Stipe, et al
Lightfoot
McCartney
Kate Bush
Ric Ocasek (yes, writing pop songs is an art, too.)
Rob Davis
My Greatest Railfanning Thrills #3: Riding in the cab of George Hart's CP
4-6-0 #972 at 35mph when it hit wet leaves, and went into a full-fledged
slip. It's hard to believe how much lateral motion a steam locomotive can
generate, and still say on the rails. For the record, I left the fireman's
seat and was on the gangway ready to jump off and do my best Sam Webb
impression. :)
NHL Playoff Thought #1: No matter how convoluted the playoff system gets,
I will never acknowldge the Flyers as being Atlantic Division champs. It
will always be the Patrick Division to me. By the way... go New Jersey!
JOHN KAVALLER
To all Harry Chapin Fans. Harry had depth and spoke to obvious matters.
Obvious matters--the simple things are usually the most important.
Poring over minutiae means little to the substance of life. One song
immediately comes to mind from the male perspective--"They Call Her
Easy" If this isn't a universal male theme, I don't know what is.
Catch you next time. John Kavaller here or at
John_K...@spacesta.com on Internet. Caio
Russell Miller
>Anyone who can write "A Better Place To Be" "W*O*L*D"
>"Taxi" "The Night That Made America Famous" "Flowers Are Red" and so many
>other exceedingly serious, socially conscious songs and still have enough
>of a sense of humor to come up with "Six String Orchestra" and "30,000
>Pounds of Bananas" is, in my humble opinion, someone that this world
>simply could not have done without.
Having grown up in the seventies, I can say that I could very easily
have done without "Taxi." In fact, my experience of that decade would
have been noticeably enhanced by its absence. (I wouldn't have missed
"Cat's in the Cradle," either.) Both sappy, soggy and overly
sentimental, delivered in a take-no-prisoners style of folk
declaiming that seems to whip mobs of otherwise thoughtful people
into a frenzy of self-righteousness and aren't-we-tough-but-
sensitive-ness.
-- Russell
--
Russell Miller
A thought, once uttered, is a lie. -- Fedor Tyutchev
Julia Anne Case
:>Having grown up in the seventies, I can say that I could very easily
:>have done without "Taxi." In fact, my experience of that decade would
:>have been noticeably enhanced by its absence. (I wouldn't have missed
:>"Cat's in the Cradle," either.) Both sappy, soggy and overly
:>sentimental, delivered in a take-no-prisoners style of folk
:>declaiming that seems to whip mobs of otherwise thoughtful people
:>into a frenzy of self-righteousness and aren't-we-tough-but-
:>sensitive-ness.
I was wondering through this newsgroup this morning and found a
subject line of 'Harry Chapin' and AWFUL in the same plce... That caught
my attention... Then I read the posts and I'm further intriqued by how
people could actually think such a thing...
Russell, could you please explain to me how your life would have
been 'noticable enchanced by it's absence.' I'm not sure how you mean
that... I can understand how a song can improver your outlook, but the
opposite effect escapes me...
I found Harry's songs to be uplifting and to give a sense of
purpose to the my world... Harry didn't just sing about these things he
lived them, he was involved in the fight against world hunger, and many
other causes to help raise the level of living in world... I also found
the stories to come alive with the people in them, I could see the people
and feel the things they were feeling.
Julie
--
[ Julia Anne Case ] [ Ships are safe inside the harbor, ]
[ Programmer at large ] [ but is that what ships are really for. ]
[ Learning Linux ] [ To thine own self be true. ]
[ Windows/WindowsNT ] [ Fair is where you take your cows to be judged. ]
Bill Nash
<snip>
>
> Russell, could you please explain to me how your life would have
> been 'noticable enchanced by it's absence.' I'm not sure how you mean
> that... I can understand how a song can improver your outlook, but the
> opposite effect escapes me...
>
> I found Harry's songs to be uplifting and to give a sense of
> purpose to the my world... Harry didn't just sing about these things he
> lived them, he was involved in the fight against world hunger, and many
> other causes to help raise the level of living in world... I also found
> the stories to come alive with the people in them, I could see the people
> and feel the things they were feeling.
>
> Julie
BRAVO Julie!! I couldn't have said it better. It takes a very little man
to have his entire life damaged by a song as beautifully innocent as "Taxi"
was. Harry Chapin told stories, and through the telling of stories, life and
heritage are passed down... THAT is what folk music is all about!
Thanks, Julie.
Bill
Harold Stevens
Kids, Kids... Does the word "troll" mean anything to you? I think you've been
had, especially in matters of artistic taste. Somebody just has it out for
Harry Chapin, wants an argument (no discussion), or just arrived from Mars.
Bill, tell this to Buddy Mondlock and just watch him ROTFLHAO. See you at
Kerrville (?)
Regards, Weird
(Harold Stevens)
wy...@ti.com
ghost
>Kids, Kids... Does the word "troll" mean anything to you? I think you've been
Hey! No commenting on anyone's appearance!
We're discussing words & music here.
>had, especially in matters of artistic taste. Somebody just has it out for
>Harry Chapin, wants an argument (no discussion), or just arrived from Mars.
And now that I finally picked on a universally-known bad sser, other people
are writing critiques far better than I could ever aspire to. Go to it,
you all.
Harold Stevens
(Curious grin in place...)
HUH? :)
Weird
JOHN KAVALLER
Taxi was a Great Song. Why, you ask? I related to it. I drove Taxi in
Buffalo, New York back in 1970 or so. Sentimental-so, what's wrong with
that? All music doesn't have to be so heavy. Forget the lyrics, how
about the melody and harmony. How about using a cello?
John Kavaller
ghost
I admit I am not familiar with this Taxi song.
I am familiar with *a* Taxi song, but the one I'm thinking of has a melody
more complex than any (other?) Chapin song I know, & sounded like it was sung
by Dan Fogelberg or someone of similar ilk. I think I remember a radio concert
& interview, long ago, with the author of this one, who's other material was
not Harry Chapin songs. But I could be wrong.
Plot is:
Poor man driving taxi picks up fare who turns out to be old girlfriend
(*of course!*) who doesn't recognize him at 1st (*of course!).
She asks "how's your novel?"
"Coming along" he says.
At the end I think she gives him a big tip.
I like the tune to this enough that I like the song;
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapin songs I really, really don't like:
Cat's in the Cradle
which also has a good tune.
Plot:
Man is mean & cold to darling baby son.
Son grows up to be mean, cold man who never
has time for bewildered elderly father
(who, in addition to never having time for son-when-young,
also apparently never had time for psych 101 but made a fortune
anyway)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Am The Something Something DJ on WOLDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
this line is all I can remember, & its just as well.
There's a reason I'm sure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A song that may not even be Chapin's, but that I was told was:
The Sonny & Cher song
"You better sit down, kid
I'll tell you why
Your mama is staying
But I'm saying goodbye"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Everything that's had its lyrics posted here, which I've never heard
the tunes to; they'd have to be really really good tunes for me to want
them to live after reading those words.
The "Mayor of Candor" song
the "Big Rock Hanging Over Your Town" song
the truly awful "Trees Can Be Red!" song
(young child has creativity thwarted for life by mean evil teacher)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The rule here is that it only takes one truly awful song to make me
say bad things about you, & Chapin has several.
The question is how many truly great songs it takes to cancel out
one truly awful one; I think Dylan is working on this problem backwards.
Don't you love it when Mary Chapin Carpenter very pointedly says
"no relation!" ?
Would somebody please clear up the "Taxi" mystery.
rogelio_saenz
simply a great songwriter and storyteller. Through his music, he allowed
us to take time to reflect on the life of common folk and on the mundane.
In his music, we saw people struggle to survive, seeing dreams fulfilled
and shattered. I can't think of many songwriters who have given so
much attention to everyday people as Harry did: a taxi driver ("Taxi"),
midnight watchman ("A Better Place to Be"), an aging disk jockey
(WOLD), a dry cleaner ("Mr. Tanner"), and a host of other common folk.
I first got turned on to Harry's music through Taxi. As I started
listening to his other music, I was hooked. He was indeed a unique
songwriter, whose music had so much to say. At the same time, he was
able to create humorous pieces--30,000 Pounds of Mashed Bananas, Odd Job
Man, among others. I continue to listen to Harry's music regularly,
almost daily.
As for Mary-Chapin Carpenter--another great songwriter--*pointedly* saying
"no relation" to queries about whether she is related to Harry....I think
it's a great leap in logic to come to the conclusion that she wanted to
distance herself from Harry and his music.
Rogelio Saenz
Bill Nash
<snip>
> As for Mary-Chapin Carpenter--another great songwriter--*pointedly* saying
> "no relation" to queries about whether she is related to Harry....I think
> it's a great leap in logic to come to the conclusion that she wanted to
> distance herself from Harry and his music.
BRAVO, Rogelio. You've hit the nail on the head!
Bill Nash
Paul Porzio
file anywhere? Is it proper to post info about upcoming features on
radio shows here. I know about the FOLKD-J activity. I'm refering to
posting announcements about shows listeners might be interested in.
Thanks.
P-Squared
JOHN KAVALLER
Sure Go ahead and Blast Harry again. It's ok. How many Bad pieces of
music do you think got trashed by Bach or Mozart. How many got panned.
Song writers are like all of us--They have good and bad days--songs too!
It doesn't take 100 good songs to cancel 1 bad one. it's just one you
don't particularly care for. That's ok too. This is pretty elementary.
If you don't like Roast pork, order Steak.
See you around and looking forward to the conversation re:
Chapin--Harry-not Mary.
John Kavaller
JOHN KAVALLER
R/S Way to go. Harry talked about real people in terms real people
understand. We, the masses, love this stuff. By the way--Anywhere IS a
better Place to BE" TRy that out as a Mantra. It's pretty deep if you
look at it from the inside out.
John Kavaller
Gary Martin
I can't sit on the sidelines and watch this anymore. Harry Chapin was
simply a great songwriter and storyteller. Through his music, he allowed
us to take time to reflect on the life of common folk and on the mundane.
In his music, we saw people struggle to survive, seeing dreams fulfilled
and shattered. I can't think of many songwriters who have given so
much attention to everyday people as Harry did: a taxi driver ("Taxi"),
midnight watchman ("A Better Place to Be"), an aging disk jockey
(WOLD), a dry cleaner ("Mr. Tanner"), and a host of other common folk.
I first got turned on to Harry's music through Taxi.
It's been many, many years since I've listened to any of these songs,
but loved them when I was in highschool or college, or whenever they
were current. Now I recognize those "common folk" as caricatures, or
at best fictional characters, that Chapin created to tell whatever
story he had in mind.
Contrast this with songwriters like Michael McNevin, Chuck Brodsky,
Kat Eggleston, etc., who also write songs about common folk, but who
tell the real stories of their characters. McNevin's "Secondhand
Story" tells what Michael found in a letter from a kid working in
a pizzeria to his ex-drug addict brother. The letter was in a pocket
of a duffle bag that Michael bought in a Goodwill store. This is
a far better song than anything I've heard from Chapin.
Brodsky's "Maria's Lament" tells the true story of domestic violence
among a family of migrant fruit-pickers. Chuck carefully avoids
imposing his own opinions or pre-conceptions on the story, letting
the characters' real experiences tell the story.
Eggleston's "True Story" relates a conversation she had with
a bag lady in the Spokane Trailways bus station. Kat tried
some casual conversation, and learned that the woman had just
returned from a round-trip cross-country bus ride to New York
to see Rudolf Nureyev dance. The song relates this story but
focuses on the effect of this conversation on the songwriter.
There are a number of other wonderful songwriters telling
stories of common folk that are much truer than anything I
know of Chapin's work.
--
Gary A. Martin, Assistant Professor of Mathematics, UMass Dartmouth
Mar...@cis.umassd.edu
Russell Miller
execrable song "Taxi"]:
> Russell, could you please explain to me how your life would have
> been 'noticeably enchanced by it's absence.'
Had there been no "Taxi," I would have been spared much pain.
I'd call that a noticeable enhancement.
Julia Anne Case
:>In article <3oqj98$p...@news.tamu.edu> Rogelio Saenz writes:
:>There are a number of other wonderful songwriters telling
:>stories of common folk that are much truer than anything I
:>know of Chapin's work.
While Chapin's work many times did not focus on a particular
'real' person, I don't think this has to detract from the fact that it
reflected a part of our culture... Generally speaking he wrote about the
working man and the daily struggle in general...
I've not heard the people you mentioned, though I will do what I
can to listen to the music they did... I enjoy listening to Christine
Lavin and her stories, which are based on her on experiences... They
move me deeply, but I don't feel that they are inheriently(sp?) better
than Harry's songs... They both leave me with feelings...
I guess that is why I like folk music as much as I do, the songs
often stir up feelings that I may have otherwise not paid attention
to... When I read a book I can almost see the people and hear the them
speak, almost as if I was watching a play... The same is true with folk
music I can see these people, and I can feel what they are feeling... I
can see the people that Harry sings about, I can feel the pain and the
stuggle... Perhaps I relate well to it since I grew up watching many
good people struggle to make it by, just like the people I heard about in
Harry's songs...
win...@cua.edu
> I'm glad someone said it. Chapin had an absolutely relentless, pit-bull
> grasp of the obvious. Every irony was telegraphed miles in advance;
> every drop of sentimentality had to be wrung out. He did great work
> for charity, and for that he should be remembered. But he was an awful
> songwriter.
Actually, I think it would be much fairer to say that you don't like the songs
he wrote or the style of songs he wrote. Most (if not all) of the Harry
Chapins fans I know like his song writing much more that his musical performing
skills (especially in the studio, he was a very good stage performer).
I have often heard Harry's songs criticized because people don't like the
style. But style is a matter of taste. I listen to a wide variety of music
styles, often based on my emotional mode at the time. Harry's songs are often
rather depressing/morbid, because he often captured the souls of the down
and outs and/or underdogs of the world. This again, causes quite a few
complaints because people want "feel good" songs.
One thing you should keep in mind when judging Harry's songs is that Harry
was much more a story teller than a typical song writer. That he put his
stories to music is just his format for story telling. As a story teller
I would compare his songs to short stories by people like Ray Bradbury; there
always seems to be a dark side to the story, and an attempt to show that the
dark side is a good thing.
If you want a Pop song writer, then Harry was probably a pretty rotten song
writer. But if you want a story teller, there are very few in the music
business that can compete. Whether you like him or not depends upon your
tastes.
I also find it interesting that you say his songs were too sentimental. I
tend to associate sentimental with happy endings, and Harry was not known for
writing happy endings:
Taxi -- old lovers meet, and DON'T get back together
Sequel -- same lovers meet again, and STILL DON'T get back together
The Mayor of Candor Lied -- Evil mayor breaks up lovers and shows that
things are worse than originally thought
30,000 lbs of Bananas -- Funny song about a guy biting the big one
Old College Ave. -- Remembering times now lost
A Better Place to Be -- title says it all
Flowers are Red -- school system kills imagination
Why Do Little Girls? -- Men and women can't be equals because society
doesn't want them to be.
Mail Order Annie -- Life is hard and you accept what options you can
Cat's in the Cradle -- kids grow up to be their parents
I think Harry was much more fatalistic than sentimental. But maybe we just
don't view "sentimental" the same way.
Personally, I wish I could find another song writer like Harry to follow.
Some of the songs Kathy Mattea sings have some of Harry's feel, without so
much of the dark side (they do tend to be much more sentimental, but still
have the feel of being about people: "Harley", "Where've You Been?", "Love at
the Five & Dime", "Eighteen Wheels and a Dozen Roses", etc.) But I can't
think of anyone who paints such a vivid picture with their words as Harry
Chapin did. I'd love to do music videos of Harry Chapin songs because I can
see the scenes in my mind so clearly; but it would probably be redundant.
"Lights Out" was a great radio show because you could see the story in your
mind; but be wasted as a tv show because then you see someone else's vision
of the story. I think the same would be true with Chapin music videos. I like
seeing my images of his songs/stories, but I'm not so sure I want to see
someone else's.
-Jim Winner
Gary Martin
mbo...@eideti.com (Michael Bowen) wrote:
> I'm glad someone said it. Chapin had an absolutely relentless, pit-bull
> grasp of the obvious. Every irony was telegraphed miles in advance;
> every drop of sentimentality had to be wrung out. He did great work
> for charity, and for that he should be remembered. But he was an awful
> songwriter.
Taxi -- old lovers meet, and DON'T get back together
Sequel -- same lovers meet again, and STILL DON'T get back together
The Mayor of Candor Lied -- Evil mayor breaks up lovers and shows that
things are worse than originally thought
30,000 lbs of Bananas -- Funny song about a guy biting the big one
Old College Ave. -- Remembering times now lost
A Better Place to Be -- title says it all
Flowers are Red -- school system kills imagination
Why Do Little Girls? -- Men and women can't be equals because society
doesn't want them to be.
Mail Order Annie -- Life is hard and you accept what options you can
Cat's in the Cradle -- kids grow up to be their parents
So, what is it (if anything) in these songs that goes beyond these
one-line plot summaries. Where are the interesting, curious, enigmatic
details that make you think deeply about the characters, their
actions in various situations, their motivations, etc.? If the
"title says it all", why do we need the song? OK, so it's a matter
of taste, but I prefer songs which pique my curiousity and interest
on the first few hearings, yet may take 10, 20, 100, or 200 hearings
to reveal their secrets. As a couple of extreme examples, I've
known Andrew Calhoun's "Never Enough" and "Jack and Jill" (the latter
is a story song, aka a ballad) and Joel Zoss' "Sarah's Song" for
about 5 years, and heard each at least 150 times, and barely
understand them. Andrew continues to do serious revisions to
"Jack and Jill" ten years after he recorded it, still trying to
understand what it is the song wants to say and how to make it
say it. (You wanted dark - try these!)
Julia Anne Case
:>ju...@julie.pond.com (Julia Anne Case) wrote [referring to H. Chapin's
:>execrable song "Taxi"]:
:>> Russell, could you please explain to me how your life would have
:>> been 'noticeably enchanced by it's absence.'
:>Had there been no "Taxi," I would have been spared much pain.
:>I'd call that a noticeable enhancement.
I guess I really am more blonde than I thought, I still don't get
it, here is a song about the chance meeting of a couple that had been
involved with each other when they were younger, and had split to follow
dreams... Dreams which were never really met... Or were they...
I see no malice in this song... I fail to see how this song
could have caused you pain...
Julie
Tom Neff
Gary Martin <mar...@argo.cis.umassd.edu> wrote:
>There are a number of other wonderful songwriters telling
>stories of common folk that are much truer than anything I
>know of Chapin's work.
But they all have Chapin as an example to look back on, and he didn't
have them.
With time, all the old familiar songs will come to sound like
caricatures, because that's where caricatures come from.
A huge part of the "hook" in any contemporary song lies in how much the
audience can be expected to "identify" with the emotions and concerns
and context being sung about. When that identification evaporates over
time or becomes trivialized, songs can lose their lustre unless they're
melodically brilliant or unless they *teach* the lost context as they
go. Even at the time of composition, if some or all of the audience
rejects the emotional identification, you'll have trouble, as witness
the witless "shoulda left it in therapy" atavism expressed occasionally
towards today's singer/songwriters. Those s/s's are taking a risk
that they can sing straight and true about a peckerwood ex or a lost
mother and people will respond, but not everyone can deal with that
material, and the result is a degree of disparagement.
My own feeling is that the best 5 percent of today's folkies are just
about as good as the top 5 percent of folkies were in Chapin's day. This
does, however, mean that on a raw numeric basis we probably have twice
as many top-notch musicians as we did back then.
MaskMaraud
Now I recognize those "common folk" (Chapins) as caricatures, or
at best fictional characters, that Chapin created to tell whatever
story he had in mind. Contrast this with songwriters like Michael McNevin,
Chuck Brodsky, Kat Eggleston, etc., who also write songs about common
folk, but who tell the real stories of their characters.
You may have a point there, but the Chapin combination of melody (the
listen-to-one-and-keep-humming-it-for-hours syndrom), arrangements (If I
listen to the "in-between" music of "the major of candor lied" I am simply
in awe and this goes for many of his arrangements) and beautiful story
(memorable, hauting, loving) was unique.
Also, I disagree that documentary songs are better as such. Even with a
purpose in mind - and yes, domestic violence is a worthy topic - you may
achieve more, if you create a story that people will want to hear. As a
writer, I often use characters myself that may be drawn in bold lines,
hoping readers can relate to them, whether that is hate, love or whatever
I want to get across.
Comparing aforementioned writers to Chapin may be the apples and oranges
thing, because I see Harry Chapin as a short story writer rather than a
documentary reporter. To quote Dennis Miller: That's only my opinion, I
may be wrong.
ghost
>In article <MARTIN.95M...@argo.cis.umassd.edu>,
>Gary Martin <mar...@argo.cis.umassd.edu> wrote:
>>There are a number of other wonderful songwriters telling
>>stories of common folk that are much truer than anything I
>>know of Chapin's work.
>But they all have Chapin as an example to look back on, and he didn't
>have them.
Oh, crap again.
Ballads (as in "songs that tell stories") are a very ancient form, going
back to the Epic of Gilgamesh, & on up through the the Illiad & Oddesey
& the Norse Sagas. Story-songs in English abound.
If you're looking at the pop charts before Chapin, try Marty Robbins'
"El Paso" & Gene Pitney's "24 Hours From Tulsa" (you'll probably like
24-Hours better because El Paso, though a love-tragedy, does have a gunfight
in it).
Try the Bobbie Gentry song about whatever it was Billy Joe McAllister
was throwing off the Tallahatchie Bridge ("Ode to Billy Joe"?)
How about the Shangri-La's "Leader of the Pack"?
How about one of my favorite songs, one that makes everybody's list
of "dumbest songs of all times" *except* mine, as it always sounded
like a folk song to me, "Patches"?
All of these have real-er characters than most of the Chapin songs I'm
familiar with, & I haven't even got *started*. I could do this all day.
(How does "Tom Dooley" grab you? Whoops that's a *real* folk song.)
(I wish someone would clear up whether I'm remembering Chapin's Taxi-song,
a Dan Fogelberg song, or fusing the 2 together:
The one I'm thinking of that I like the tune & some of the words to
starts out with something about being in a record store, & has a
conversation later where one of the characters asks the other about
their career & gets
"I/She said the (something-ing) was wonderful,
but the traveling was hell")
Weren't Guy Clark & Townes Van Zandt songwriting contemporaries of Chapin?
I think Mary McCaslin's career & his overlapped some.
>With time, all the old familiar songs will come to sound like
>caricatures, because that's where caricatures come from.
No they don't.
"I'd rather hear your fiddle at the touch of one string
Than to see the waters glide & hear the nightengale sing"
"Two wives and the army's too many for me"
These are from the prototypical song about a betrayed lover, but
the characters still sound real to me.
>go. Even at the time of composition, if some or all of the audience
>rejects the emotional identification, you'll have trouble, as witness
>the witless "shoulda left it in therapy" atavism expressed occasionally
>towards today's singer/songwriters. Those s/s's are taking a risk
>that they can sing straight and true about a peckerwood ex or a lost
>mother and people will respond, but not everyone can deal with that
>material, and the result is a degree of disparagement.
"Witness the witless" ...that's pretty good.
If yuou could keep that up, you might have something.
The disparagement comes because of the witless way they say it,
*not* *what* they're saying "straight and true".
You are not capable of being convinced of this, apparently.
How many examples of good songwriting about peckerwood exes & lost mothers
will it take to convince you that some other people writing on the same
topics just can't write?
"You can't deal with the material" is a particularily ugly & specious
arguement, right up there with
"you have to be on drugs to truly appreciate this".
>My own feeling is that the best 5 percent of today's folkies are just
>about as good as the top 5 percent of folkies were in Chapin's day. This
>does, however, mean that on a raw numeric basis we probably have twice
>as many top-notch musicians as we did back then.
Then you'll agree that "on a raw numeric basis" we have twice as many
examples of the lower 95%, & that most of them can be found at open mikes
& as opening acts around Boston? They arrive in bus-loads (pardon me,
I mean Mercedes-loads) daily, skewing the curve a great deal, & not in
my favor.
My point is that the lowest of the low today are far worse than the lowest
back then. I'd be happy to hear Harry Chapin at an open mike in town
today; at least he had tunes, at least he had *something* to say, at least
he could say it coherently.
What we have here (I'm told its not this bad elsewhere in the country)
are people with a great deal of polish & poise & purely-technical instrumental
& vocal skill applied to a great dearth of decent material.
CynF
do not get it. Maybe you Chapin-downers should buy a clue. The music is
what it is - it says what Harry wanted to say at that particular time.
For me, and (believe me) many,many others, every word out of the man's
mouth was like a sermon - he translated so many human emotions into
musical terms. He opened feelings up to be examined, embraced, acted
upon. Sure, some songs were better than others - isn't every songwriter
(not to mention any painter, architect, etc. ) afflicted with a few that
don't measure as highly as some others?
I imagine that you nay-sayers are too young to have seen Harry in concert.
There was no better entertainer than Harry. When he came to the edge of
the stage and sang Mail Order Annie, a capella, the house was so quiet
that he really didn't need a mike. And after every concert he met,
talked, and autographed until the very last person had had a chance for a
moment with him. NEVER have I seen anything like that - before or since.
OK - his music doesn't mean anything to you - so be it - go on to a
subject and artist that you enjoy. Leave us, the ones who loved the man
and his music in peace. To this day, he is still missed.
Cindy Funk
Cdavis35
I this posted earlier but your post made me want to share it with you
I saw Harry 7 times and had tickets for the eighth when he died. I
remeber being at Purdue University during summer
session when I first heard about it and getting pretty drunk about it that
night. Every concert was an experience and different. Once he stopped
the show in the middle of a song because the sound system being bad.
Harry sat on the front of the stage and did coin tricks until it was
fixed. I remeber the time he departed from the usual encore of "Circle"
and ended the show with "Sniper". Talk about chills. He was out in the
lobby after every show just like you said. He wasn't just a songwriter,
but an entertainer and messanger.
Has anyone every noticed the irony of the "Sequel" album cover? Harry
is leaning against a taxi with the sign ontop that says: "81OFFDUTY7"
The album was out in Feb. and Harry died in July of '81
Chuck Davis