Joan Biaz...
Amanda Bea Coombs
I have an interesting story for any fans of Joan Biaz....but it may change
your mind about her "loving" attitude.
I used to really admire her strength, but when I was working at Mariposa
folk festival ( I was 11...with my parents) in Barrie....I wanted her to
sign my record ( everyone on staff got one, but you could also purchase)
anyways...I got up the nerve to ask her before the staff sang "Amazing
Grace" for the festival finale and when I asked her she replied
"fine....little brat".
Needless to say I did not stand next to her during the finally.
Coomy
MBAg...@ix.netcom.com
Kevin Burke's Open House will be finishing up their West Coast tour
this week with the following dates:
Weds Dec 10 Beginnings, Briceland, CA
Contact: Sue Moon (707) 986-1678 or KMUD
(707) 923-2513
Thurs Dec 11 The Freight & Salvage, 1111 Addison Street, Berkeley,
CA (510) 548-1761
Fri Dec 12 Pacific Cultural Center, 1307 Seabright (corner of
Broadway), Santa Cruz, CA
Contact:(408) 847-6982
Sat Dec 13 The State Theatre, 1307 J Street, Modesto, CA
Contact: (209) 529-7576
Sun Dec 14 Dance workshop for Sandy Silva at The Sebastapol
Community Center, 12:00 noon - 3:00 p.m.
Contact: (707) 568-0112
Concert at The Raven Theatre, 115 North Street,
Healdsburg, CA Contact:(707) 433-8182; concert 7:30 p.m.
Max Wallace
I have heard countless similar stories about her bad attitude, many from her
fellow musicians (though, to be fair, some defend her as well.)
Unfortunately, like many folkies, her off-stage personality seems to
contradict the message of her music.
It's not that folkies are necessarily worse than musicians in other
genres, it's just that it's more disillusioning when it comes from
somebody whose music I admire.
Thankfully, there are many exceptions and, whenever I meet one, it just
makes me more disgusted with the jerks.
Jinxblues
Jinxblues
So what's your point, Amanda?
Are you are a brat or aren't you?
I think you are hurting your own case by not even knowing how to spell her name
. . .
Howard Camber
In article <66l1hl$g...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>I have heard countless similar stories about her (Joan Baez) bad
attitude, many >from her fellow musicians (though, to be fair, some defend
her as well.)
>Unfortunately, like many folkies, her off-stage personality seems to
>contradict the message of her music.
My family and others were invited backstage to meet Peter, Paul and Mary
after a concert in Toronto a couple of years ago.
The guests were then subjected to Mary Travers behaving like an infantile
prima donna and throwing an embarrassing tantrum when asked a completely
innocuous question.
My kids never played another PP&M record after that. It's amazing how
contradictory some performers' on and off-stage behavior can be. Many
have truly become legends in their own mind.
Greg Bullough
In article <66m7b3$l...@news.inforamp.net> soft...@inforamp.net (Howard Camber) writes:
> [famous performer name, not Baez', omitted] ...behaving like an infantile
>prima donna and throwing an embarrassing tantrum when asked a completely
>innocuous question.
Note that the 'completely innocuous' question goes un-mentioned. Perhaps
because it was more rude than innocuous? Or perhaps it struck a nerve
that someone who knew the person would have known about.
In general, the group in question are, and always have been, incredibly
generous with fan-dom after working a long show or two. Their usual
practice is to come back out front a few minutes after the finale,
where they hang out for probably a lot longer than the venue would
like. A lot longer. They charge for autographs, though. Payment is
in hugs.
I'd point out that, back-stage, you were on the performer's turf. You
came back to bug them, they didn't come out to meet you.
Road life is hard. High-energy music is hard work. Sometimes something
catches you just wrong, when you're sick and tired or sick-and-tired.
When it happens where YOU work, to YOU, YOU expect to be forgiven, not
castigated before the entire world, and turned out on the street.
How can you expect that when you're all-too-willing to broadcast
a single perceived failing in a sea of successes, years later, to all
and any in a public forum?
You expect the people who entertain you to be people of deep feeling
and great passion. And you want them to be human, just like you, not
untouchable elite stars. Yet, when you witness first-hand, on their turf,
the other side of that coin, you go about smashing the idols which
you cast on your own anyway.
Look, people, even those you admire, are going to mess up in how they
relate sometimes. That's how it is. Get over it, already.
Greg
--
Greg Bullough | AFM Local 1000 AFL/CIO
g...@eclipse.net | K2GWB
| PP-ASEL
www.eclipse.net/~gwb for Compass Rogues & NY Chantey Sings
alle...@scn.org
Max Wallace wrote:
>
> Amanda Bea Coombs (n72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca) writes:
> > I have an interesting story for any fans of Joan Biaz....but it may change
> > your mind about her "loving" attitude.
> > folk festival ( I was 11...with my parents) in Barrie....I wanted her to
> > sign my record ( everyone on staff got one, but you could also purchase)
> > anyways...I got up the nerve to ask her before the staff sang "Amazing
> > Grace" for the festival finale and when I asked her she replied
> > "fine....little brat".
Perhaps she was joking and, at 11 years of age, you missed the tone of
voice. At least she signed your record <g>, many of our overpaid
cry-baby professional athletes now think they're too good to give out
authographs, they make kids pay for them!
Bob B.
Greg Bullough
In article <348ED1...@scn.org> alle...@scn.org writes:
>Max Wallace wrote:
>>
>> Amanda Bea Coombs (n72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca) writes:
>> > I have an interesting story for any fans of Joan Biaz....but it may change
>> > your mind about her "loving" attitude.
>
>voice.
Or perhaps she was fed up to here with the hordes of unsupervised
children who seem to frequent Folk Festivals. For some reason,
some parents' brains often seem to go on vacation for the
duration. Left then to their own devices, their children race
around, getting into everything, being disruptive, and generally
flying in the face of civilized social convention. All while
Mom and Dad sit blissfully in some concert or workship on the
other side of the grounds.
That doesn't necessarily apply to yourself, and maybe you caught
the brunt of it somewhat unfairly.
Amanda Bea Coombs
> I have heard countless similar stories about her bad attitude, many from her
> fellow musicians (though, to be fair, some defend her as well.)
> Unfortunately, like many folkies, her off-stage personality seems to
> contradict the message of her music.
>
> genres, it's just that it's more disillusioning when it comes from
> somebody whose music I admire.
>
> Thankfully, there are many exceptions and, whenever I meet one, it just
> makes me more disgusted with the jerks.
Maybe she was having a bad day, but I was a just a kid.
Anyways I'm glad to know not everyone jumped on me for that one!
Thank you for the insight....very helpful.
Coomy
Howard Camber
>Note that the 'completely innocuous' question goes un-mentioned. Perhaps
>because it was more rude than innocuous? Or perhaps it struck a nerve
>that someone who knew the person would have known about.
Try, "When will you be touring in Europe again?" Posed by someone with an
English accent. Hardly a question that one might describe as rude.
>I'd point out that, back-stage, you were on the performer's turf. You
>came back to bug them, they didn't come out to meet you.
Wrong again. You will notice from my original post that we were _invited_
back-stage to meet with PP&M and we did not go with the intent of bugging
them. As for back-stage being "their turf," when performers are working
in my city, in a theater subsidized by my tax dollars, as well-paid guests
of my country, I am willing to debate with you as to whose turf they're
really on.
>Road life is hard. High-energy music is hard work. Sometimes something
>catches you just wrong, when you're sick and tired or sick-and-tired.
>
>When it happens where YOU work, to YOU, YOU expect to be forgiven, not
>castigated before the entire world, and turned out on the street.
I run a business and it _doesn't_ happen where I work. My colleagues and
I don't shriek at paying clients (or their children) when we're tired,
jet-lagged, sick, cranky or all of the above, which is more often than I
would care to admit. Bad days are just like any other day and in my
business, that's called professionalism.
>How can you expect that when you're all-too-willing to broadcast
>a single perceived failing in a sea of successes, years later, to all
>and any in a public forum?
Well excuse me if I inadvertently abused the mandate of a public newsgroup
open for folk-related discussion. I will do my best never to repeat this
dire offence ã at least not until next time.
>You expect the people who entertain you to be people of deep feeling
>and great passion. And you want them to be human, just like you, not
>untouchable elite stars. Yet, when you witness first-hand, on their turf,
>the other side of that coin, you go about smashing the idols which
>you cast on your own anyway.
No, I just don't expect "idols" to throw a snit in front of a room full of
kids but maybe I'm expecting too much.
MBAg...@ix.netcom.com
I've seen far more badly behaved adults than children at Folk
Festivals. Sorry...seeing children not given the respect we would
give to adults is a pet peeve of mine. Maureen
Amanda Bea Coombs
On 10 Dec 1997, Stewa1 wrote:
> Note her name is Joan Baez..not Biaz; and maybe she knows a little brat when
> she sees one!!
> I have heard about some pretty wonderful things Joan has done; I'll stick with
> those thoughts.
> Besides, we all have bad days!!
That's just rude....why the rudeness? I wasn't being rude! I'm sure she
has done wonderful things...everyone has......doesn't mean you're allowed
to snap at a kid asking for an autograph.
Coomy
Amanda Bea Coombs
> So what's your point, Amanda?
> Are you are a brat or aren't you?
> I think you are hurting your own case by not even knowing how to spell her name
> . . .
I already answered this.....but again why the rudeness? I was adding some
input.....I didn't say she was a bad artist or anything....so why the
jumping all over me. A civilized answer would have done fine....actually
no answer would have been better. Why would I know how to spell her name?
I already told you I am not a big fan. This newsgroup is for disscussion
right? Try disscussing instead of slashing back.
Coomy
Ellen Mill
I guess I'm wondering why you even felt it was necassary to post this in
the first place, Amanda? It didn't feel exactly like adding input, but
more like a random snipe.
We sure don't want to let folk artists just be folks, do we? I'm sure
glad no one's out there to hold my bad days against me and air them for
the general public. What Ms. Baez said was probably not well-thought, or
even polite, but IMHO, hardly worth all this attention. We've all said or
done thoughtless things; it's called being human.
Uh... and... big fan or not, it's just common courtesy to spell someone
else's name correctly.
Now removing my school marm hat....
ellen
Stewa1
delphi
In article <19971210060...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
jinx...@aol.com (Jinxblues) wrote:
Amanda Bea C. wrote:
> >>>>>I used to really admire her strength, but when I was working at Mariposa
> folk festival ( I was 11...with my parents) in Barrie....I wanted her to
> sign my record ( everyone on staff got one, but you could also purchase)
> anyways...I got up the nerve to ask her before the staff sang "Amazing
> Grace" for the festival finale and when I asked her she replied
> "fine....little brat". <<<<<
>
> So what's your point, Amanda?
> Are you are a brat or aren't you?
> I think you are hurting your own case by not even knowing how to spell
her name
> . . .
Are you perhaps from the Joan Baez school of condescending jerks?
I can picture you on the schoolyard when you were 15 bullying kids smaller
than you while whistling some folk song about peace and harmony.
Or maybe you're just in the wrong newsgroup. the alt.fan.axl-rose group is
under "a".
delphi
In article <19971210055...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ste...@aol.com
(Stewa1) wrote:
Hopefully your disgraceful post signifies that you are merely having a bad
day, rather than the more logical assumption that you are a pompous
jackass!!
Stewa1
>...why the rudeness? I wasn't being rude! I'm sure she
>has done wonderful things...everyone has......doesn't mean you're allowed
>to snap at a kid asking for an autograph.
>Coomy
I think you must be pretty sensitive!! This is called humor, not rudeness.
Makes me think you took something Ms. Baez said in a wrong way....
Greg Bullough
In article <66n0sd$o...@news.inforamp.net> soft...@inforamp.net (Howard Camber) writes:
>In article <gregEKz...@netcom.com>, gr...@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) wrote:
>
>>Note that the 'completely innocuous' question goes un-mentioned. Perhaps
>>because it was more rude than innocuous? Or perhaps it struck a nerve
>>that someone who knew the person would have known about.
>
>Try, "When will you be touring in Europe again?" Posed by someone with an
>English accent. Hardly a question that one might describe as rude.
So it struck a nerve. Or maybe there was something there that you
didn't know about.
>>I'd point out that, back-stage, you were on the performer's turf. You
>>came back to bug them, they didn't come out to meet you.
>
>Wrong again. You will notice from my original post that we were _invited_
>back-stage to meet with PP&M and we did not go with the intent of bugging
>them. As for back-stage being "their turf," when performers are working
>in my city, in a theater subsidized by my tax dollars, as well-paid guests
>of my country, I am willing to debate with you as to whose turf they're
>really on.
Well, hell, maybe they should have brought you a case of wine
for the privilege.
>>Road life is hard. High-energy music is hard work. Sometimes something
>>catches you just wrong, when you're sick and tired or sick-and-tired.
>>
>>When it happens where YOU work, to YOU, YOU expect to be forgiven, not
>>castigated before the entire world, and turned out on the street.
>
>I run a business and it _doesn't_ happen where I work. My colleagues and
>I don't shriek at paying clients (or their children) when we're tired,
>jet-lagged, sick, cranky or all of the above, which is more often than I
>would care to admit. Bad days are just like any other day and in my
>business, that's called professionalism.
You weren't a 'paying client.' You got what you payed for. The show.
As a bonus, you got to see the human side of one of the performers.
If you didn't like it, tough.
You strike me as the classic arrogant small businessman who thinks
his business is above all that. YOU and YOUR business and YOUR tax-
dollars, and YOUR theater, and YOUR country blah blah blah.
>>How can you expect that when you're all-too-willing to broadcast
>>a single perceived failing in a sea of successes, years later, to all
>>and any in a public forum?
>
>Well excuse me if I inadvertently abused the mandate of a public newsgroup
>open for folk-related discussion. I will do my best never to repeat this
>dire offence ã at least not until next time.
Yeah, it's 'open' for discussion. And what YOU choose to use it for
says a lot about you. The fact that YOU jump on an opportunity to
hold a trivial grudge and bring someone down says a lot more about
Howard than it does about the performer.
>>You expect the people who entertain you to be people of deep feeling
>>and great passion. And you want them to be human, just like you, not
>>untouchable elite stars. Yet, when you witness first-hand, on their turf,
>>the other side of that coin, you go about smashing the idols which
>>you cast on your own anyway.
>
>No, I just don't expect "idols" to throw a snit in front of a room full of
>kids but maybe I'm expecting too much.
Well, sometimes you get what you don't expect. And as I said, how
you handle it, years later, says a lot about your integrity.
Max Wallace
Well said! Just look at the snotty badly behaved adults in this newsgroup who
jumped all over Coomy just because she related an incident which happened to
be unflattering to somebody they obviously put on a pedestal.
I would have expected better but I guess I'm just one of those idealists
left over from the 60's.
Dave Roberts
It seems to me that we - as music listeners - tend to expect that our heroes
be heroes, and, maybe, they're not. Does that need to detract from their
music? I don't think so - I very much suspect that I would not get along to
well with my musical heroes. I like to dream about being best friends with
Dylan, but it isn't going to happen. Musicians and songwriters work for a
living - some better than others. I appreciate their work, but that gives me
not right to expect them to be either saints or absolute jerks. Would your
favourite song mean any less to you if you learned that the performer was a
jerk?
Peace,
Dave
Amanda Bea Coombs
> >Perhaps she was joking and, at 11 years of age, you missed the tone of
> >voice.
>
> Or perhaps she was fed up to here with the hordes of unsupervised
> children who seem to frequent Folk Festivals. For some reason,
> some parents' brains often seem to go on vacation for the
> duration. Left then to their own devices, their children race
> around, getting into everything, being disruptive, and generally
> flying in the face of civilized social convention. All while
> Mom and Dad sit blissfully in some concert or workship on the
> other side of the grounds.
>
> That doesn't necessarily apply to yourself, and maybe you caught
> the brunt of it somewhat unfairly.
>
> Greg
> --
she didn't, but she had worked with her before, and wasn't overly keen on
her. Many musians have the same attitude. You know...kids can't be REAL
fans.
I totally agree that parents let their kids run around at folk festivals
way too much....it's a kidnappers dream!
However this wasn't the case in my situation.....my mom went with me, and
we weren't spectators, we were backstage on staff.
Coomy
Amanda Bea Coombs
No he's not expecting too much!
On 10 Dec 1997, Howard Camber wrote:
> In article <gregEKz...@netcom.com>, gr...@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) w=
rote:
>=20
> >Note that the 'completely innocuous' question goes un-mentioned. Perhaps
> >because it was more rude than innocuous? Or perhaps it struck a nerve
> >that someone who knew the person would have known about.
>=20
> Try, "When will you be touring in Europe again?" Posed by someone with a=
n
> English accent. Hardly a question that one might describe as rude.
>=20
> >I'd point out that, back-stage, you were on the performer's turf. You
> >came back to bug them, they didn't come out to meet you.
>=20
> Wrong again. You will notice from my original post that we were _invited=
_
> back-stage to meet with PP&M and we did not go with the intent of bugging
> them. As for back-stage being "their turf," when performers are working
> in my city, in a theater subsidized by my tax dollars, as well-paid guest=
s
> of my country, I am willing to debate with you as to whose turf they're
> really on.
>=20
> >Road life is hard. High-energy music is hard work. Sometimes something
> >catches you just wrong, when you're sick and tired or sick-and-tired.
> >
> >When it happens where YOU work, to YOU, YOU expect to be forgiven, not=
=20
> >castigated before the entire world, and turned out on the street.
> =20
> I run a business and it _doesn't_ happen where I work. My colleagues and
> I don't shriek at paying clients (or their children) when we're tired,
> jet-lagged, sick, cranky or all of the above, which is more often than I
> would care to admit. Bad days are just like any other day and in my
> business, that's called professionalism.
>=20
> >How can you expect that when you're all-too-willing to broadcast
> >a single perceived failing in a sea of successes, years later, to all=20
> >and any in a public forum?=20
>=20
> Well excuse me if I inadvertently abused the mandate of a public newsgrou=
p
> open for folk-related discussion. I will do my best never to repeat this
> dire offence =8B at least not until next time.
>=20
> >You expect the people who entertain you to be people of deep feeling
> >and great passion. And you want them to be human, just like you, not
> >untouchable elite stars. Yet, when you witness first-hand, on their turf=
,
> >the other side of that coin, you go about smashing the idols which
> >you cast on your own anyway.
>=20
> No, I just don't expect "idols" to throw a snit in front of a room full o=
f
> kids but maybe I'm expecting too much.
>=20
>=20
Amanda Bea Coombs
> Look, people, even those you admire, are going to mess up in how they
> relate sometimes. That's how it is. Get over it, already.
>
> Greg
> --
Look I know what musisian life is like, my dad played in a popular
southern Ontario band, and I'm no stranger to it. I've been brought up in
a festival atmosphere....always hearing stories, and meeting new people.
She was the one ant in my pants. She hadn't even performed that day! And
she was not surrounded by fans.....and she was the only one who signed my
record (not her record) in a huff.
Coomy
Amanda Bea Coombs
I'm sayin' that when you're eleven and practically pissing your pants in
nervousness......when you get to sing in front of thousands you get up the
nerve and you get shot down....it's pretty tough for a young girl.
Coomy
Amanda Bea Coombs
I'm thinking that my posting my experience has caused a little
shit...sorry was n't really planning on it....sounds like you guys were
ready to burst!
Coomy
Greg Bullough
In article <66nevh$4...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) writes:
>
>Well said! Just look at the snotty badly behaved adults in this newsgroup who
>jumped all over Coomy just because she related an incident which happened to
>be unflattering to somebody they obviously put on a pedestal.
First, I don't put Ms. Baez on a pedestal. She's a good musician.
Period.
But 'just because?' Let's see. She gets up in front of 10,000 people, out
of the blue, and tells the story of a couple of seconds' indiscretion
that happened, what, maybe 25 years ago?
With no apparent reason other than to hurt the individual's reputation.
We could have other theories, such as individual catharsis, but it
all comes down to the same thing.
That suggests to me that:
a) She's got some serious problems letting go of
childhood issues (which are bigger than being
addressed as 'little brat' by a pop star) and
might do well to consider a bit of counseling
b) She's got a pretty wierd sense of how to
operate ethically in a public forum
>I would have expected better but I guess I'm just one of those idealists
>left over from the 60's.
Better than what? The 60's weren't about holding grudges over minor
and momentary slights for a quarter of a century. To coin a phrase,
"Hey, man, don't lay that trip on me! Be cool. Her thing just got
in the way of someone else's. Hang loose. Peace."
Two monks came to a river. Beside the river was an old woman, trying
to find a way across. The first monk picked the woman up, and carried
her across. As they continued their journey, the second monk seemed
troubled. Finally he said to the first "Why did you do that? You know
that we are not allowed to touch a woman." The first monk said "Why
don't you set that woman down? I did, more than two hours ago."
It's very 90's, not 60's, to use all sorts of unresolved 'issues'
as an excuse for what is, put simply, just crappy behavior.
delphi
> In article <66nevh$4...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) writes:
> >
> >Well said! Just look at the snotty badly behaved adults in this newsgroup who
> >jumped all over Coomy just because she related an incident which happened to
> >be unflattering to somebody they obviously put on a pedestal.
>
> First, I don't put Ms. Baez on a pedestal. She's a good musician.
> Period.
>
> But 'just because?' Let's see. She gets up in front of 10,000 people, out
> of the blue, and tells the story of a couple of seconds' indiscretion
> that happened, what, maybe 25 years ago?
>
> With no apparent reason other than to hurt the individual's reputation.
> We could have other theories, such as individual catharsis, but it
> all comes down to the same thing.
>
> That suggests to me that:
> a) She's got some serious problems letting go of
> childhood issues (which are bigger than being
> addressed as 'little brat' by a pop star) and
> might do well to consider a bit of counseling
> b) She's got a pretty wierd sense of how to
> operate ethically in a public forum
>
All she did was relate an incident which happened to her as a child. She
didn't rant, she didn't call Baez a bitch, she doesn't sound like she has
carried a giant chip on her shoulder ever since. She acknowledged that
maybe Baez was simply having a bad day.
On the other hand, a number of people in this newsgroup have attacked her
quite meanly for, among other things, her bad spelling. Maybe she has a
learning disability, maybe she's just a bad speller like Greg here.
Without meeting her, people have told her she probably was a little brat
and that she needs counselling just because she dared to cast aspersions
on an icon.
Who's the one who needs a lecture on ethics?
I for one think it's quite relevant to know how public figures who espouse
a moral message conduct themselves out of the public spotlight. It helps
adjust the hypocrisy meter.
It's very revealing about a person's character how they treat children and
the hired help. I'm always interested in learning from waiters and
waitresses how they were treated by famous people they have waited upon.
It's a much better gauge of their sincerity than their public sentiments.
Perhaps other people have their own positive stories about Baez that they
would like to share. Post away.
Ian Anderson
Amanda Bea Coombs wrote:
>
> I have an interesting story for any fans of Joan Biaz....but it may change
> your mind about her "loving" attitude.
> folk festival ( I was 11...with my parents) in Barrie....I wanted her to
> sign my record ( everyone on staff got one, but you could also purchase)
> anyways...I got up the nerve to ask her before the staff sang "Amazing
> Grace" for the festival finale and when I asked her she replied
> "fine....little brat".
Then there was the Cambridge Festival in the UK where she insisted
that the entire backstage area be cleared so that she could walk the
red carpet from her personal caravan to the stage - this necessitated
Martin Carthy, who had just performed, being ejected from back stage.
I think I was more annoyed that Cambridge agreed to this than that she
did it. I stopped going to the event after that year.
--
Ian Anderson
Folk Roots magazine
fro...@froots.demon.co.uk
http://www.froots.demon.co.uk/
remove anti-junkmail .off to reply
Amanda Bea Coombs
Well now that I've been analysed to the hilts ( yes my spelling is bad
but who cares?)
I won't bother you guys any more okay!!!
Coomy
On 11 Dec 1997, delphi wrote:
ghost
When I 1st went to see Ms Baez, in 1973 or around there at the folk-concert
site in the Berkshires near Tanglewood, I was pretty dissapointed too,
& I wasn't 11 & I wasn't part of a stage-show finale & I wasn't asking
for an autograph. I had to *beg* a relative with a car to drive me all the
way out there, too, as I didn't have a car & was too young to rent one
(they didn't issue credit cards to 22-year-olds back then; those were the
days). This was my big folkie trip, as where I'd been living before I
moved to this area the likes of Baez didn't tour.
Baez was rude to the *audience* in that era, making fun of all her classic
songs, sneering at requests, doing crass imitations of Dylan in the middle
of otherwise-OK-delivered songs, running "follow the bouncing arm!"
singalongs, & only singing one or two all afternoon with the old
intensity & sincerity.
She has said in her 2nd autobiography that while she doesn't believe in
taking illegal behavior-altering drugs she has no compunctions about
*legal* behavior-altering drugs, & that Quaaludes were the big thing around
that time & she had a prescription & she was certainly taking lots of them.
She talks in the bio about nerves before a concert, throwing up & so forth;
I guess the Quaaludes did a lot to improve that situation, but they didn't
do much for her actual stage act.
You can't blame it all on drugs, though; I have a tape of a record Vanguard
must have issued when she was at odds with them that contains what amounts
to out-take/reject cuts from her '61-era recording sessions/concerts, &
she's sneering at things & making obnoxiously flippant remarks to the
audience back then too. Seems to be pretty consistant behavior.
She's written at length in probably both autobiographies about feeling
imprisoned by the "voice of the Virgin Mary" publicity that accompanied
her early touring, both the "Virgin" & the "Mary" part, but I can't help
but feel all the disparaging of material & audience comes from
feeling superior to them, not just the need to dispel a myth her
publicity department &/or the press cooked up.
She still does the crass Dylan imitations in the middle of songs;
I'd prefer some "Dylan is a shit" material sung with great sincerity.
And she still does the "bouncing arm" bit & makes flippant comments.
Sometime in the 80s I tried to warn an acquaintance's mother, who was was
planning to see Baez & expected "the old days", whatever those were,
& a set filled with Child ballads, that Baez was singing different material
& was behaving a little differently than might be expected, too. Never
found out if the lady went or if so what she thought of the act.
Rev1880
All I can add is when I've met her backstage over the years (1980 to this
year), she's been just really nice. I've gotten a hug from her one time, I've
gotten a kiss from her another time, and my experiences in meeting her have
all been great. She's okay in my book.
Bill
Stewa1
Maybe Ms. Baez was misunderstood...perhaps she was hungry and asked the kid if
she could have a little brat...as in bratworst...and the kid jumped to the
wrong conclusion.
eljefe...@halcyon.com
>. Would your favourite song mean any less to you if you learned that the performer was a jerk?
Oh, you mean if someone like, say, Cat Stevens recorded saccharin
love-gen stuff like "Peace Train," then agreed with Ayatollah Khomeini
in condemning Salman Rushdie to death?
Yeah. My favorite song would mean less to me if I learned its
writer/singer was a slimeball reactionary religious fanatic and a
hypocrite.
Jef Jaisun
******************************************************
elj...@NOSPAMhalcyon.com
To reply, remove NOSPAM from e-mail address.
******************************************************
eljefe...@halcyon.com
On 11 Dec 1997 18:39:36 GMT, j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost ) wrote:
>Baez was rude to the *audience* in that era, making fun of all her classic
>songs, sneering at requests, doing crass imitations of Dylan in the middle
>of otherwise-OK-delivered songs, running "follow the bouncing arm!"
>singalongs, & only singing one or two all afternoon with the old
>intensity & sincerity.
Hey, even performers get PMS. :)
JJ
Stewa1
I saw Ms Baez in concert a lot during the era mentioned. I found her to be
respectful, humerous, as well as more than willing to share he wonderful voice
with her audience. Personal perspective is something else!!
ghost
I saw Ms Baez in concert a lot during the era mentioned too. I must be
a glutton for punishment, or not easily disillusioned, or something.
She was not respectful, she was not humerous (except perhaps from her
own perspective), & as her audience didn't come away singing like her,
I can't see that she "shared" her voice with us, either. She did sing to/at
us. As I said before, one or 2 songs per concert were at the old intensity
& sincerity. I doubt you, with your worshipful attitude, would know when you
were being insulted even when she giggled "I don't remember 'Geordie'" at
some hapless requester. Gee, *I* remember 'Geordie', & I haven't sung & played
it 10,000 times to huge audiences, either. There's a way to gently turn down
a request for a song you might be genuinely tired of, or are staying away from
for some other reason, & that wasn't it.
"Personal perspective", as you put it, is certainly "something else",
as you also put it, if it allows you to worship someone who isn't delivering
either behavior or music worthy of your worship.
She's gotten a lot better lately at not insulting the audience, but
generally speaking the intensity & sincerity isn't there for many of the
old songs. She *will* do a nice job on songs she cares about. But she's
still too flippant & too much enamored with her own reputation & position
in the history of music, however well-earned that reputation was &
position is, for my tastes.
Michael Black
I met her in June of 1982, backstage. Got back from walking to New York
City, and about a week later she was up here in Montreal performing. I
was so amazed that I was actually going to see her perform here. She had
arranged with a local group to hand out literature for her group,
Humanitas, and I knew one of the people doing it. They had a backstage
pass, so a bunch of us traipsed back afterwards. When I shook hands
with her, I had hardly anything to say, I was so awed by her. She did
seem shorter than I expected, but I've come to realize that we make
famous people larger than life. I remember her joking around with
some of the people, and offering us food that was laid out.
I wish I hadn't met her when I was twenty two, but could meet her now,
when I am less dazzled by fame and could actually have a conversation
with her. On the other hand, if I hadn't had that encounter with someone
who had to be the most famous person I've ever met, I'm not sure I'd
have an understanding that if you approach famous people as stars,
the encounter won't work out so well, but if you approach them as someone
who shares something in common with you, things will go alright.
I wish I'd said something to Abbie Hoffman when he was here in 1986 for
a speech; perhaps I could have said something important to him. But
as the groupie types surrounded him afterwards, I realized that I did
not want to add to that.
Michael
Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen
GO31RCR wrote:
>
> >Hey, even performers get PMS. :)
>
> public figure who relies on satisfaction of the masses to make a living have
> all, by default, inherited the responsibility to conduct themselves in a civil
> manner. They must all expect to be asked for autographs, its part of the
> business.
> Whether it be PMS, a bad-hair day, an incompetant sound engineer (are you
> listening, Dan Bern?) or whatever, the performer must learn how to deal with
> it, get over it and accept the responsibilities they took on when they decided
> to go public. If that is asking too much, then they should get the hell out of
> the business. IMHO.
>
I think about it this way: where ever you work, whatever you do, don't
you have bad days? Days when you said something you wish you hadn't?
Done something you shouldn't have?
The music rises above the artist...the music is what makes us believe
that somehow the artist is above human-ness. However, artist can rarely
live up to what we expect.
Irene Jackson
http://www.islandnet.com/~woloshen/ijackson.html
GO31RCR
sayan bhattacharyya
Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen <moon...@islandnet.com> wrote:
>
>The music rises above the artist...the music is what makes us believe
>that somehow the artist is above human-ness. However, artist can rarely
>live up to what we expect.
We don't hold politicians to the above standard (we hold them to
a much higher standard). Why should we make an exception for artists?
J Peekstok
In article <66s9dr$t...@necco.harvard.edu>, j...@deas.harvard.edu wrote:
>. . . being insulted even when she giggled "I don't remember 'Geordie'" at
>some hapless requester. Gee, *I* remember 'Geordie', & I haven't sung &
>played it 10,000 times to huge audiences, either. There's a way to gently
>turn down a request for a song you might be genuinely tired of, or are
>staying away from for some other reason, & that wasn't it.
Don't be so sure. There is a lot of difference between remembering how a song
goes and feeling competent to perform your arrangement of it in front of a
large audience. Any performer will tell you that any performance arrangement
that hasn't been played for a year or more will probably not be on tap at a
moment's notice. I remember 'Geordie' too, but I sure wouldn't get up in front
of a large group of people who had paid big bucks to see me perform and risk
insulting them by screwing it up.
John Peekstok
Dave Roberts
>>. Would your favourite song mean any less to you if you learned that the
performer was a jerk?
>eljefe...@halcyon.com wrote in message
>Oh, you mean if someone like, say, Cat Stevens recorded saccharin
>love-gen stuff like "Peace Train," then agreed with Ayatollah Khomeini
>in condemning Salman Rushdie to death?
>
>Yeah. My favorite song would mean less to me if I learned its
>writer/singer was a slimeball reactionary religious fanatic and a
>hypocrite.
>
>Jef Jaisun
Cat Stevens is a good example. The song Peace Train is about peace and hope
in the world. Is the song any less about peace and hope in the world because
Cat Stevens changed his mind and became a religious fanatic? Do you believe
less in peace and hope because Cat Stevens does? I think there is a sense in
which truly great music transcends the artist - songs about peace and hope
are about peace and hope, not the performer. Otherwise, I suspect a lot of
music would lose it's meaning...
Peace,
Dave
Rev1880
I remember when I met her the first time, it was just so bizarre to see the
face that I'd been gazing at from album covers approach me and actually speak
with me. I remember being so suprised that she looked like herself.
Greg Bullough
In article <66tbeg$jh5$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu> bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen <moon...@islandnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>The music rises above the artist...the music is what makes us believe
>>that somehow the artist is above human-ness. However, artist can rarely
>>live up to what we expect.
>
>We don't hold politicians to the above standard (we hold them to
>a much higher standard).
Which accounts for why we keep electing polished, 'slick,' simpletons,
who are much better at saying the right things and smiling the right
smile at the right time than they are at actually leading.
Not only that, such has become the standard for CEOs, Chairmen of
the Board, and it is slowly creeping down through the ranks of
lower and middle management. Only the latter aren't quite so
good at it. You can see the latter shift into 'Dale Carnegie'
mode, grinding their gears (and teeth) along the way.
Remember Pink Floyd's hit 'Pig Man?'
Such is the fate of a society which puts form over essence and
which thinks that slapping a designer label on a cheap pair of
Indonesian blue-jeans makes them better than Levis.
>Why should we make an exception for artists?
<*Danger. Warning. Sports-analogy ahead!*>
I dunno. Why should we make aspiring football players learn to
throw, catch, block, and tackle prior to their taking the time to
develop a really cool dance to use in the end-zone?
ghost
>On 11 Dec 1997 18:39:36 GMT, j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost ) wrote:
>>Baez was rude to the *audience* in that era, making fun of all her classic
>>songs, sneering at requests, doing crass imitations of Dylan in the middle
>>of otherwise-OK-delivered songs, running "follow the bouncing arm!"
>>singalongs, & only singing one or two all afternoon with the old
>>intensity & sincerity.
>Hey, even performers get PMS. :)
Yeah, that must be what the members of The Band all had the only time I
went to see them; they played clearly disinterestedly to an only-1/4-filled
"small" football stadium for about 1/2 an hour, then one came to the mike
& said "sorry, folks, we just aren't into it today. We'll come back
some time & play for you again when we feel more like it."
Yeah, it was an era full of wayward hormones, all right.
Have you have yours checked? You seem a little iffy.
Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen
sayan bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen <moon...@islandnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >The music rises above the artist...the music is what makes us believe
> >that somehow the artist is above human-ness. However, artist can rarely
> >live up to what we expect.
>
> We don't hold politicians to the above standard (we hold them to
Politicians have the overwhelming responsibility of running our
country...I DO expect more from them because of that. I certainly don't
think they live up to those expectations very often either.
Artists having to be god-like somehow, is just plain silly. I think
that they may be inspired sometimes by something greater than
themselves, and you hear songwriters often talking about feeling more
like the vessel rather than the creator. I think the audience mixes the
artist up with their music just as an actor can be confused with his/her
character.
Irene Jackson
http://www.islandnet.com/~woloshen/ijackson.html
ghost
That's why I said "there's a way to gently turn down a request" & that
giggling (snidely, as long as I'm describing it) "I don't remember Geordie"
isn't it. Just a calm, quiet "I haven't played that for a while & I don't
want to louse it up", even if you did play it yesterday & remember it
perfectly & *hate* it, would be a better answer (wouldn't work if the
person calling for it was the same person who called for it yesterday,
however; maybe "I'm tired of it; please listen to this next song, which I hope
I don't get tired of for a long while" would be a better answer).
I once heard Christy Moore take a request, say as if wondering to himself
if he could play it "I haven't played that one for a long while & I don't
think I'll remember enough of it", then start to pick it out, get 1/2-way
through the song (it was a *long* song; Little Musgrave? whatever) only
to trip up fatally somewhere & say, equally gently "I'll try to learn that
one for you next time I come here".
Ellen Mill
In <66tbeg$jh5$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu> bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen <moon...@islandnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>The music rises above the artist...the music is what makes us believe
>>that somehow the artist is above human-ness. However, artist can rarely
>>live up to what we expect.
>We don't hold politicians to the above standard (we hold them to
>a much higher standard). Why should we make an exception for artists?
IMHO, art in any form rises above the artist. It seems to me, if you're
in the public eye, sooner or later someone is not going to like something
you say or do.
Jeeze Louise, folks... if you have to be a nice person to make music or
art; if you have to be a saint to do good works, what a sad, sterile
world this would be. There'd be no Carravagio, no Van Gogh, no Mozart...
no Oscar Schindler, or even Martin Luther King. One of the wonderful
things, IMHO, about human beings, is that we can rise above our
imperfections to help one another and enrich each others' lives. Why
should we make an exception for artists? Maybe because, like you and me,
they're people? People with a talent, yes, but people all the same. They
aren't special or different; why do we expect them to be?
Ellen, who is about to rise above her flawed human nature and go be a
Retail Clerk... ;-)
Jinxblues
>>>>>The 'performers', professional musicians, actors, professional athletes
and any
public figure who relies on satisfaction of the masses to make a living have
all, by default, inherited the responsibility to conduct themselves in a civil
manner. They must all expect to be asked for autographs, its part of the
business.<<<<<
Giving autographs is 'part of the business,' is it? I suggest you set your
alarm for a wakeup call because many greatly respected artists don't give
autographs and their millions of fans are well aware of this.
Is Bob Dylan 'irresponsible?' How about Van Morrison? Or Sinead O'Connor?
I think that you must have your nose in the ass end of that lemming in front of
you . . .
Stewa1
>Subject: Re: Cranky Performers (was Re: Joan Baez...)
>From: j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost )
>Date: Fri, Dec 12, 1997 16:13 EST
>Message-id: <66s9dr$t...@necco.harvard.edu>
>
>In article <19971212151...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Anyone who would expect someone like Joan Baez to remember every song she's
ever sang or recorded has to be an idiot!!
I think a lot of what one gets out of a cocert is personal attitude. Some
folks go ragging about everything and try to judge everything based on their
own bitchy attitude....I've sat near them and they're annoying as all get out!!
ghost
>>Subject: Re: Cranky Performers (was Re: Joan Baez...)
>>From: j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost )
>>Date: Fri, Dec 12, 1997 16:13 EST
>>In article <19971212151...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
>> I doubt you, with your worshipful attitude, would know when you
>>were being insulted even when she giggled "I don't remember 'Geordie'"
>Anyone who would expect someone like Joan Baez to remember every song she's
>ever sang or recorded has to be an idiot!!
Like I've already said 2 or 3 times, the issue is not whether she
actually remembered the song at performance capacity, &/or whether she
felt like playing it or not; the issue is that someone who hasn't kept up
with the press about what the musician is into or is not into at that
particular time in their life & is making an honest request from the audience
for a particular song that means something to them (or for an autograph,
for that matter, to go back to the original poster's complaint) deserves
to be treated politely, to be turned down gently if they're going to be
turned down.
Baez has gotten better at refusing requests for goldie oldies in recent
years, but she's still got quite an attitude about other aspects of her
show.
>I think a lot of what one gets out of a cocert is personal attitude. Some
>folks go ragging about everything and try to judge everything based on their
>own bitchy attitude....I've sat near them and they're annoying as all get out!!
Yeah, I sit near them too. I can't count the concerts, that, when over,
elicited "exit" comments from seat-mates who think they're voice-training &/or
instrumental-technique &/or musical-production specialists of some kind
who want to run & give the musician a piece of advice they think will make
the act so much better. Few of them seem to be willing to just sit there
& listen to what the musician is actually putting out (& evaluate *that*,
if they need to evaluate), & few of them seem to be aware that its not
*their* show. However, sitting next to drooling fans who think every movement
of their idol must be magic because their idol did it isn't much fun either.
Timothy Jaques
Greg Bullough wrote
>It's very 90's, not 60's, to use all sorts of unresolved 'issues'
>as an excuse for what is, put simply, just crappy behavior.
>
>Greg
I agree. No excuses for "just crappy behavior". Please pass that on to Ms.
Baez. It's never too late to apologize, if in fact she meant to offend.
BTW, I wonder what was the tone of voice? If she was truly offended at a
"little brat" she probably would not have signed the album.
--
Timothy Jaques tja...@netcom.ca
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
"Common sense is that set of prejudices we attain by the age of eighteen."
Timothy Jaques
Amanda Bea Coombs wrote in message ...
Many musians have the same attitude. You know...kids can't be REAL
>fans.
That would be a very bad attitude. I see kids in the CD shops hauling out
twenties and buying CD's two or three at a time.
Timothy Jaques
What did you expect her to look like?
So far we have one confirmed good Joan Baez story against several of her
being a shit. The tally does not look good. Incidently, the Rev. should
give more details as to why he has been able to see her backstage since
1980. Doing the bookings? Signing the cheques? Involved in her favourite
causes? More detail is in order.
It still won't stop me from buying her excellent "Noel" CD, now released on
Vanguard.
--
Timothy Jaques tja...@netcom.ca
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
"Common sense is that set of prejudices we attain by the age of eighteen."
Rev1880 wrote in message <19971213144...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Stephen Suffet
Timothy Jaques wrote:
>
> What did you expect her to look like?
>
> So far we have one confirmed good Joan Baez story against several of her
> being a shit. The tally does not look good. Incidently, the Rev. should
> give more details as to why he has been able to see her backstage since
> 1980. Doing the bookings? Signing the cheques? Involved in her favourite
> causes? More detail is in order.
>
> It still won't stop me from buying her excellent "Noel" CD, now released on
> Vanguard.
Greetings---
Back in 1967-1969 I was working full-time in the anti-Vietnam War
movement. In particular, I was working in the New York office of a
group which called itself The Resistance and which organized non-
violent resistance to the military draft. The hours were long ---
usually 80 or more per week --- and the pay, if it could be called
that, was almost nothing. $25 a week, perhaps, plus whatever we could
pick up by selling newspapers and anti-war buttons on the street.
Then one day there came in the mail a banker's check for $3,000
from Joan Baez. Along with the check came a letter to The Resistance
staff. She told us NOT to spend the money on leaflets and demonstra-
tions. Instead, Joan insisted that we spend it on ourselves: go to a
movie or two, see a Broadway show, attend a couple of concerts, have a
meal in a good restaurant, or do whatever made us happy.
Joan, your gift was a Godsend. I thank you to this day. Please
don't let the nay-sayers, jerks, and whiners ever get you down.
In love and peace always,
Steve Suffet
LDimitr863
In response to the 26 messages that I just read, I have to add that I saw Baez
at a concert this summer performing selections from her CD released in
September and she was nothing less than dignified, pleasant and appreciative as
we, her adoring fans, screamed and carried on at every lyric and word that
escaped her lips. I can imagine that day after day of being Joan Baez can
become rather tiresome.
Stewa1
> Joan, your gift was a Godsend. I thank you to this day. Please
>don't let the nay-sayers, jerks, and whiners ever get you down.
>
> In love and peace always,
> Steve Suffet
>
Dino
> Hopefully your disgraceful post signifies that you are merely having a bad
> day, rather than the more logical assumption that you are a pompous
> jackass!!
oh come one. it's not enough to make personal attacks on performers,
but now you have to attack their supporters? sit down, count to ten,
and realize that Jim isn't a "pompous jackass".
we all have bed days. those are the times when we're too po'd to keep
up the usual act. Maybe Joan was (reasonably) ticked about being
"worshipped" on her day off. Performers need personal space, and the
time to enjoy themselves, just like you and I do.
Dino
GO31RCR
Actually, JB, I sold the lemming a few years ago. It was a '62 Dodge Dart and
it really sucked.
Ken
Joseph C Fineman
"Timothy Jaques" <tja...@netcom.ca> writes:
>Amanda Bea Coombs wrote in message ...
>>Many musians have the same attitude. You know...kids can't be REAL
>>fans.
>That would be a very bad attitude. I see kids in the CD shops
>hauling out twenties and buying CD's two or three at a time.
I can think of better reasons to call it a bad attitude.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Love like Matter is much :||
||: Odder than we thought. :||
Timothy Jaques
Or the children.
--
Timothy Jaques tja...@netcom.ca
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
"Common sense is that set of prejudices we attain by the age of eighteen."
Stephen Suffet wrote in message <6729bg$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
delphi
In article <349565...@geocities.com>, Dino <dinom...@geocities.com>
wrote:
If you had bothered to read Amanda's original post, you would know that
she did NOT make a personal attack on Joan Baez, nor did I. She merely
pointed out that Baez had called her a "little brat". Amanda has even
acknowledged that maybe Baez was having a bad day.
On the other hand, since you failed to quote from Stewa1's post which
prompted the pompous jackass response, I will refresh your memory. He
wrote, "Maybe she (Baez) knows a little brat when she sees one!!"
This kind of obnoxious and unwarranted personal attack does not belong in
this newsgroup. Maybe, as you point out, Baez was ticked off about being
"worshipped". Now, what's Jim's excuse? (if that's Stewa1's real name).
Amanda deserves an apology from him and others who personally attacked
her for daring to relay an unflattering anecdote about their idol.
Until I see one, counting to ten won't be enough to dissuade me from my
original assessment.
Stewa1
Perhaps people should use some good judgement and common sense before asking
for autographs. It seems that when a performer is getting ready to do a finale
number would be about the worse time to approach him or her for an autograph.
There is a time and place for most things, and this would seem like one of the
worse times possible.
Joe Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
>Would your favourite song mean any less to you if you learned that the
>performer was a jerk?
Generally, no. A good song is a good song, even if the author has other failings.
Paraphrasing MITSFS's motto: I'm not a fan, I just sing the stuff.
Possible exception: If I discover that my interpretation of the song and theirs
differ strongly, and theirs is somehow both offensive and impossible to
ignore. If I discover that they intended it to be taken as a Nazi anthem, for
example, it sorta puts a damper on things... even if I can listen past that,
others may not be able to.
Marc Blaker
When my good friend Ruth was losing her battle to cancer,
Joan came and visited her in the hospice. (Ruth was
Joan's personal assistant for years) Joan sat down
at the piano and entertained the patients for 45 min.
when she could have easily just said hello to Ruth.
Joan was on tour when Ruth passed but she took the time
to send a very nice telegram for the memorial.
Marc Blaker
--
"Well, if I work as hard as I can in my life, I may
be able to end up building this thing that nobody
can tear down after I'm dead." Jerry Garcia 1942-1995
DEfromGA
>Perhaps other people have their own positive stories about Baez that they
>would like to share. Post away.
First of all, Joan has a very dry sense of humor, the great Odetta once told me
(with affection) that "Joanie can be a real smart ass.". I doubt it was meant
as Amanda took it. Second, I've seen her in concert countless times during,
and since the 60s. I've had the privilage of meeting her several times and, a
more gracious person you could not find. One particular time was a couple of
years ago at a midtown music festival in Atlanta. She had just arrived and was
walking through the crowd (that should tell you something). I stopped her, she
could have brushed me off, I apologized for the intrusion, but she was as
gracious as ever and, introduced my friend and me to Gabe. She was a little
nervous about what questions we were going to ask or songs we might request,
and told me so. I didn't take this as being rude, just honest. She gave a
superb performance that day (despite sound problems, which Nancy Lutzow later
told me had disturbed Joan quite a bit) and, came out after her performance to
meet and chat with us all. At any rate I doubt anyone who has been *around
festivals* and claims to know so much, could remember such a trivial incident
and, still not know how to spell her name.
Donna Embler
DEfromGA
You go Richard (lol),
Have you picked up a little of Joanie's dry sense of humor?
Donna (Chintzi)
Rev1880
She does have a real smart assed sense of humor, which probably suprises those
who remember her virginal, humorless image of the early 60s. And she'd been
charming and gracious the times I've goten to meet her backstage or over the
fence at Newport. Maybe she isn't all the time, but my experience has been
positive. And Lord knows, she is still the best damned singer out there; check
out the new album GONE FROM DANGER. It is a fine piece of work.
Neil E. Bomberg
Amanda . . . I really think you ought to get a life, a dictionary and a grammar text
before you continue to tell us your boring, trite, and very silly story.
Your story reminds me of something I learned at about the same age that you were when
you allege that Joan treated you so badly: Small minds focus on other people,
average minds on events, and great minds on ideas. Why don't you try to elevate the
discussion by discussing some of the important issues and ideas that Joan Baez has
brought to the fore . . . civil rights, the war in Vietnam, draft resistance, the
boat people, the crisis in the former Yugoslavia, state terror, and Tibet, to mention
only a few. And if you can't elevate the discussion to that level, could you at
least stay away from your gossipy nonsense . . . .
delphi
In article <3499E084...@earthlink.net>, nbom...@earthlink.net,
nbom...@naco.org wrote:
> Amanda . . . I really think you ought to get a life, a dictionary and a
grammar text
> before you continue to tell us your boring, trite, and very silly story.
This kind of elitism betrays a very disturbing trend among so-called folk
music aficionados. It reminds me of white social workers driving into the
ghettos (no doubt listening to Joan Baez on their car stereo)
condescendingly "helping" those poor Black people who don't even know how
to speak the Queen's English. "Love me, love me, love me, I'm a
liberal...."
Somehow I don't think Ms. Baez would approve of this kind of snide attack
on her behalf.
I'd hate to imagine the way Neil treats kids himself if he can so publicly
ridicule an 11-year-old's experience which many people do not find at all
boring, trite and silly, especially all the other people who related their
own negative Baez incidents.
Thank you to all the people in this newsgroup who managed to relate
positive Baez incidents without resorting to Neil-like personal insults.
Neil E. Bomberg
Dear Delphi,
You are filled with so much anger that it is hard to know how to respond to
your comments. But let me ask you a few questions that I hope you will take
the time to answer. By the way, if you denote some sarcasm in my voice you
are right on target.
First, what is that disturbing trend that you see among so called folk music
aficionados? Is it that we appreciate Joan Baez and her work for peace,
justice and economic equality? Or is it that we like her music, her voice and
her most recent album, "Gone From Danger." Do tell me.
Second, did you mean to use the term paternalistic, rather than elitist, at
least in the context of the white social workers who you know for sure
listened to Joan Baez on their car stereo systems? Of course, all of us know
that each and everyone of them was condescending. We also know that to this
day all of those state and county social workers of whom you speak drive
around in fancy state and county cars with fancy car stereo systems just so
they can listen to Joan Baez and feel better about the ways in which they are
exploiting poor people.
Third, do you think it is abusive to challenge people to rise a step above the
commonplace -- the anecdote or the story that makes the headline in the New
York Post or People Magazine -- and to think in terms of much larger and
important issues?
And fourth, are we to believe that the testimony of a dozen people on a news
group is sufficient evidence that Joan Baez is a terrible person?
I hope you can find a way to answer these questions.
Neil
delphi
In article <349B02FA...@earthlink.net>, nbom...@earthlink.net,
nbom...@naco.org wrote:
> Dear Delphi,
> First, what is that disturbing trend that you see among so called folk music
> aficionados? Is it that we appreciate Joan Baez and her work for peace,
> justice and economic equality? Or is it that we like her music, her voice and
> her most recent album, "Gone From Danger." Do tell me.
> Second, did you mean to use the term paternalistic, rather than elitist, at
> least in the context of the white social workers who you know for sure
> listened to Joan Baez on their car stereo systems? Of course, all of us know
> that each and everyone of them was condescending. We also know that to this
> day all of those state and county social workers of whom you speak drive
> around in fancy state and county cars with fancy car stereo systems just so
> they can listen to Joan Baez and feel better about the ways in which they are
> exploiting poor people.
The disturbing trend is how many people who profess to like the "music of
the people" demonstrate by their words and actions that they actually
consider themselves above the people who they profess to care about. And,
rest assured, I meant elitist, although I would definitely say YOU are
paternalistic as well. Attacking people for poor grammar and spelling as
you and others did to Amanda clearly demonstrates an elitist attitude. My
analogy of social workers was obviously not intended to imply all social
workers in the inner cities are condescending and elitist. I invoked the
Phil Ochs "Love Me, I'm a liberal" reference to compare you to the many
who are. Ochs believed it was just as important to expose hypocrisy on the
so-called left as it was to criticize the right.
> Third, do you think it is abusive to challenge people to rise a step above the
> commonplace -- the anecdote or the story that makes the headline in the New
> York Post or People Magazine -- and to think in terms of much larger and
> important issues?
No, I completely support this and I wish you would limit your posts to
something as positive as that. I think it's abusive to engage in personal
attacks just because somebody has the audacity to relate an incident which
is unflattering to somebody you admire. Once again, I point out that
Amanda did not do this in an abusive or insulting way and she even
acknowledged that maybe Baez was just having a bad day.
> And fourth, are we to believe that the testimony of a dozen people on a news
> group is sufficient evidence that Joan Baez is a terrible person?
Not at all. If you recall, it is I who invited people to post positive
Baez stories to give a balanced perspective. Since I did this, several
people have done just that. I have met Ms. Baez on several occasions and I
have personally witnessed both positive and negative sides of her
personality. I have always admired her music and her message. I do believe
that people who publicly espouse a social change message should be held
accountable for their own public actions and I hope the constructive posts
on this thread continue.
However, the fact that there are many other negative Baez stories besides
Amanda's makes me wonder why you and others continue to attack, belittle
and ridicule her. Because of bad grammar and spelling? Because she is
young? "Love me, love me, love me, I'm.................."
Jinxblues
>>>>>rest assured, I meant elitist, although I would definitely say YOU are
paternalistic as well. Attacking people for poor grammar and spelling as
you and others did to Amanda clearly demonstrates an elitist attitude.<<<<<
Sorry . . I have to agree with Neil on this one . .
If Amanda is old enough to stir up troubles with adults and old enough to hold
grown up opinions, then she should be responsible enough to take the time to
get the spelling of a major recording artist's name correct. Anything short of
that is simply disrespectful and quite lazy . . .
Since I have met Ms. Baez often enough to call her a friend and hosted Phil
Ochs on his many visits to Cambridge in the 1960s, I shall not participate in
that aspect of your discussion.
I found Amanda to be whiney and petulant . . and certainly undeserving of any
kneejerk support . .
Dick Waterman
LDimitr863
OK, OK, people...this debate has been going on for quite some time now...isn't
time that we gave it a rest?
Max Wallace
Jinxblues writes:
Delphi writes:
I disagree. Sounds to me like any criticism of Baez would sound whiney and
petulant to you. But Delphi doesn't seem to be offering Amanda
kneejerk support, merely taking issue with the personal attacks against her. I
would rather see Amanda's rather dignified attitude (ie. admitting Joan
may have been having a bad day, refraining from insults, etc.) than the
uncalled for diatribes against her spelling and grammar.
I know many intelligent people whose spelling is very poor due to a number
of learning disabilities.
As the former director of a major folk festival, I've corresponded with a
lot of musicians who you probably admire. You would be amazed to see the
quality of their spelling and grammar.
When I read these kind of personal attacks, I have to struggle to remind
myself this is a newsgroup dedicated to the sprit of folk.
Neil E. Bomberg
Subject:
Mariposa.....
Date:
Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:06:02 -0330
From:
Amanda Bea Coombs <n72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Organization:
Memorial University of Newfoundland
Newsgroups:
rec.music.folk
A am a 19 year old girl, whose paremts worked for Mariposa Folk Festival
on several committees for several years. I myself was on staff on
the
"welcoming committee" I guess you could call it. I was just wondering
if
anyone had attended the festival recently (past few years). I would
like
to know if it has changed any.
Obviously, Amanda has harbored this anger toward Joan Baez for eight years. I think the problem lies with her not with us!
But I will give Amanda credit for one thing. She uses her name, and doesn't hide behind a nick like many in this news group seem to do.
Neil
Godardian
I just found out about the Baez discussion and wanted to add what I could: A
former lover of mine tells me that when his former lover's mother saw Joan in
Japan at a restaurant no less, she went up to her to ask for an autograph for
her son. Joan replied that she did not give autographs bur proceeded to sketch
a cartoon and address it to the woman's son..not exactly bitchy behavior. I
have also seen her less than "a saint" in other venues--so what? I have behaved
like less than a saint, Dorothy Day who is being considered for sainthood was
sometimes "not nice." What do people want? I never had bombs rain down on me,
and do what I might, I haven't been in the firing line--literally and
figuratively--as she has. Give the woman a break and allow her some room to be
human. Godardian @ aol.com
ghost
The point is not that Baez isn't human &/or that she hasn't done good deeds
in her life.
It must be really annoying to have someone staring at you in a restaurant
not because they think you look nice or they're about to tell you you have
soup on your shirt but because they've identified you as someone famous
& are about to interrupt your meal to ask for an autograph, or, worse yet,
just stare & eavesdrop & then tell all their friends what the famous person
had & said for dinner. I can figure out why Dolly Parton always wears
big wigs & tons of makeup for performances; not only does she think it makes
her better looking (to each their own, & she's toned it down some in the past
decade) but reportedly (& she's said something to the same effect herself
in interviews) when she takes the wigs & makeup off she becomes a
nice-looking woman who only resembles Dolly Parton, & has people thinking
"probably a relative" if they give the matter their attention at all.
And Mother Teresa has been reported at having snapped at people & having
run her operation as a one-leader enterprise. So what? She got
accomplished what she planned to accomplish. She probably didn't sign
a lot of autographs either. But she wasn't a form of entertainer. Baez is.
Baez certainly earned her fame, but the kind of fame she has comes with
obligations to the public that the Mother-Teresa kind of fame doesn't have,
*even if she chose for many years to use that fame to further the cause
of good works, like Amnesty International*. Baez was an effective spokesman
*because* of her fame; she didn't earn her fame as a spokesman for
Amnesty Intl.
There's a difference between being curt & short with people & being
mean & sarcastic to them, & I don't think Baez has historically cared much
about that difference, whether its to an audience or to individuals.
I go to hear her sing at regular intervals, & they'd be more regular intervals
if she sang more stuff that she cares about *that I want to hear*
(that's a factor too, & why shouldn't it be?). She's nicer to the audience
now than she ever was in the 70s, but that "I am a folk princess" thing
still gets through, & I don't care for it.