Tarwathie
Rusty Campos
I'm not sure if this is the right place to be asking, but there's a
question I've been working on for a few weeks and I haven't found
the answer in the U.S.
There is a Scottish sailors' song called "Farewell to Tarwathie"
written in the 1850s by George Scroggie, a miller from New Deer.
Judy Collins, an American folk singer, recorded the song about
20 years ago.
I don't know what Tarwathie means - if it is a place or if it is a
word with some other meaning. If it is a place, I can't find it on
a Road Atlas of Britain anywhere near Aberdeen or New Deer.
I would be deeply indebted to you for any help you can give. A growing
number of Scots and Canadians would also be grateful.
Thank you,
Rusty Campos
Richard L. Hess
Rusty,
One of my favorite Judy Collins Songs!
I checked the following:
DeLorme Global Explorer CDROM
Microsoft Encarta 96 CDROM
Microsoft Bookshelf 93 CDROM
National Geographic Atlas of the World Sixth Edition
Random House Dictionary of the English Language,
Unabridged 2nd Edition 1987
Automobile Association: Treasures of England/
Treasures of Ireland (1976?)
Automobile Association: Street Atlas of England (1976?)
Webster's Geographical Dictionary (1963)
And no mention of Tarwathie.
Thought I'd let you know I tried!
All the best,
Richard
Norman
I just checked in 1997 versions of Encarta Deluxe and Encarta World Atlas
for Tarwathie, Mormon Hill and Crimmon (using different spellings for
each). The only name I could find is "Mormon Hill" in Zimbabwe.
Tarwathie and Crimmon (sp?) may be places which now have new names; or else
were "transient" like some of the gold mining towns of south-west US which
are now deserted.
If anyone can find more info; please post it.
--------------------------
"When you're up to your ass in alligators;
it's hard to remember that your job is to drain the swamp."
Norman Lampert
mr.b...@worldnet.att.net
jmoul...@aol.com
In article <01bc101e$46092900$529174cf@norman-lampert>, "Norman"
<mr.b...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Subject: Re: Tarwathie
>From: "Norman" <mr.b...@worldnet.att.net>
>Date: 1 Feb 1997 09:00:00 GMT
>
>I just checked in 1997 versions of Encarta Deluxe and Encarta World Atlas
>for Tarwathie, Mormon Hill and Crimmon (using different spellings for
>each). The only name I could find is "Mormon Hill" in Zimbabwe.
>Tarwathie and Crimmon (sp?) may be places which now have new names; or
else
>were "transient" like some of the gold mining towns of south-west US
which
>are now deserted.
>If anyone can find more info; please post it.
Tarwathie is about two miles to the north of Strichen, approx south inland
from Fraserburgh and west and a bit north of Peterhead. Mormond Hill is
beside Tarwathie. Crimond (which name is also that of the conventional
tune for the 23rd psalm) is about 10km east of Strichen on the main road
between Peterhead and Fraserburgh and the nearest village to Rattray Head.
All this is in the north-east of Aberdeenshire, Scotland. The song was
indeed, as the original poster, Rusty said, written in the 1850s by George
Scroggie, a miller who lived at New Deer, in the same area as the other
places.
John Moulden
Singer, Percussionist, Writer, Lecturer,
Researcher, Publisher, Song Hunter
Ulstersongs Mail Order (Books and Cassettes)
http://members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.htm
Stephen L Suffet
On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Richard L. Hess wrote:
> Rusty,
>
> One of my favorite Judy Collins Songs!
>
> I checked the following:
>
[snip]
> And no mention of Tarwathie.
>
> Thought I'd let you know I tried!
>
> All the best,
>
> Richard
>
> Rusty Campos <cam...@cr-a.com> wrote:
>
>
[snip]
> >There is a Scottish sailors' song called "Farewell to Tarwathie"
> >written in the 1850s by George Scroggie, a miller from New Deer.
> >Judy Collins, an American folk singer, recorded the song about
> >20 years ago.
>
> >I don't know what Tarwathie means - if it is a place or if it is a
> >word with some other meaning. If it is a place, I can't find it on
> >a Road Atlas of Britain anywhere near Aberdeen or New Deer.
>
> >I would be deeply indebted to you for any help you can give. A growing
> >number of Scots and Canadians would also be grateful.
>
> >Thank you,
>
> >Rusty Campos
>
Greetings---
Could it be that the mysterious "Tarwathie" (or "Tarwaithie") is
not a specific place at all, but is a word derived from Scots Gaelic
having something to do with homeland or native country? I am not familiar
with Scots Gaelic, but I do know that in Irish Gaelic the word ti'r
(accent is actually above the vowel, not after it) means country,
homeland, nation, or region. Several other Irish words are derived from
it, including ti'rghra' (patriotism), ti'rghra'ch (patriotic), and
ti'rghra'tho'ir (patriot). Maybe the whaler is bidding farewell to his
homeland.
Also, the Irish Gaelic adjective uatha means singular (usually in
the grammatical sense), while the adjective uathu'il means unique or one
of a kind. Could "Tarwathie" actually be a Scots variant of ti'r uatha or
ti'r uathu'il, meaning the singer's "only homeland" or "only country"?
Another even stronger possibility: In Irish Gaelic, the
preposition uaithi (sometimes used in an adjectival sense as well) means
from, of, or since. (It is actually a derivative of the preposition o'
which appears in many Irish names.) Could it be that "Tarwathie" is a
Scots form of ti'r uaithi, meaning "country [I come] from" or "country [I
am] of"?
These are only educated guesses, but I am certain that there has
to be at least one knowledgeable Gaeilgeoir lurking on this newsgroup to
either confirm or refute this line of thought!
The next line, "Adieu, Malin Head," refers to the northernmost
point of Ireland, a place the whaling ships would pass just north of en
route from Scotland to Greenland. As for the third line, I never heard of
"the dear land of Kremmon" or "Gremmon" or whatever. I've always sung it
as: "And the dear land of E'ireann..." (or Erin in the Anglicised
spelling), which is of course Ireland. Maybe it's not the way the song was
originally sung, or maybe it was, but it certainly logically follows
bidding adieu to Malin Head.
Regards again from Co. Queens (NY, USA),
Steve Suffet
NOTE AGAIN: Accents are above vowels in each instance. They are not
apostrophes!
Stephen Suffet
Stephen L Suffet wrote:
[snip]
> Could it be that "Tarwathie" is a
> Scots form of ti'r uaithi, meaning "country [I come] from" or "country [I
> am] of"?
> These are only educated guesses, but I am certain that there has
> to be at least one knowledgeable Gaeilgeoir lurking on this newsgroup to
> either confirm or refute this line of thought!
> The next line, "Adieu, Malin Head," refers to the northernmost
> point of Ireland, a place the whaling ships would pass just north of en
> route from Scotland to Greenland. As for the third line, I never heard of
> "the dear land of Kremmon" or "Gremmon" or whatever. I've always sung it
> as: "And the dear land of E'ireann..." (or Erin in the Anglicised
> spelling), which is of course Ireland. Maybe it's not the way the song was
> originally sung, or maybe it was, but it certainly logically follows
> bidding adieu to Malin Head.
Greetings again---
Wow, was I way off base! About 30 minutes after posting my
supposedly educated speculation, John Moulden's posting -- with all
the correct answers -- pops up. All that effort for naught!
I hereby declare my previous posting (on my other ISP) null and
void, lest the rumor spread that Tarwathie is actually ti'r uaithi.
I will also now sing Mormond Hill rather than Malin Head, and
fair land of Crimond instead of E'ireann. Or else I will go all the
way and Hibernicise the song completely. In which case it will stay
ti'r uaithi, Mailin Head, and E'ireann. :-)
I have to think that one over. At least I don't sing farewell to
Kentucky. Not too many whaling ships out of there! :-)
Regards again,
Steve Suffet
Sarah Heather Cardin
On Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:53:19 -0500, Stephen L Suffet
<sl...@columbia.edu> said the most interesting thing:
> As for the third line, I never heard of
>"the dear land of Kremmon" or "Gremmon" or whatever. I've always sung it
>as: "And the dear land of E'ireann..." (or Erin in the Anglicised
>spelling), which is of course Ireland. Maybe it's not the way the song was
>originally sung, or maybe it was, but it certainly logically follows
>bidding adieu to Malin Head.
>
Since we are making educated guesses as to where some of the words in
the song came from, I'll take a run at line 3. Maybe it is 'dear land
of *Crimmon*'? The MacCrimmons were a family of pipers on the Isle of
Skye, the last of whom died in the early 1700's. The family provided
the pipers for the lairds of Skye. The family was known for being the
best of all the pipers, and pipers came from all over the region to
learn from them.
On the other hand, why someone would travel by Malin Head when leaving
the Isle of Skye is beyond me, so maybe I am really reaching here ...
Sarah Cardin
mae...@europa.com
Stephen Suffet
jmoul...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Tarwathie is about two miles to the north of Strichen, approx south inland
> from Fraserburgh and west and a bit north of Peterhead. Mormond Hill is
> beside Tarwathie. Crimond (which name is also that of the conventional
> tune for the 23rd psalm) is about 10km east of Strichen on the main road
> between Peterhead and Fraserburgh and the nearest village to Rattray Head.
> All this is in the north-east of Aberdeenshire, Scotland. The song was
> indeed, as the original poster, Rusty said, written in the 1850s by George
> Scroggie, a miller who lived at New Deer, in the same area as the other
> places.
>
> John Moulden
> Singer, Percussionist, Writer, Lecturer,
> Researcher, Publisher, Song Hunter
> Ulstersongs Mail Order (Books and Cassettes)
> http://members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.htm
Dear John---
Thanks for putting up the correct information. Your posting
arrived about half an hour after my speculation about the Gaelic ti'r
uaithi. I see that I was very far off base.
Regards,
Steve Suffet
Stephen L Suffet
Dear Sarah---
Also a good guess, but my Gaelic posting was mistaken. See John
Moulden's posting with correct information regarding Tarwathie, Mormond
Hill, and Crimond. So that explains why there was no sailing around Malin
Head!
Regards again from Co. Queens,
Steve
jmoul...@aol.com
In article
<Pine.SUN.3.95L.97020...@namaste.cc.columbia.edu>,
Stephen L Suffet <sl...@columbia.edu> writes:
> The next line, "Adieu, Malin Head," refers to the northernmost
>point of Ireland, a place the whaling ships would pass just north of en
>route from Scotland to Greenland. As for the third line, I never heard of
>"the dear land of Kremmon" or "Gremmon" or whatever. I've always sung it
>as: "And the dear land of E'ireann..." (or Erin in the Anglicised
>spelling), which is of course Ireland. Maybe it's not the way the song
was
>originally sung, or maybe it was, but it certainly logically follows
>bidding adieu to Malin Head.
In article <32f3c59...@news.europa.com>, mae...@europa.com (Sarah
Heather Cardin) writes:
>Since we are making educated guesses as to where some of the words in
>the song came from, I'll take a run at line 3. Maybe it is 'dear land
>of *Crimmon*'? The MacCrimmons were a family of pipers on the Isle of
>Skye, the last of whom died in the early 1700's. The family provided
>the pipers for the lairds of Skye. The family was known for being the
>best of all the pipers, and pipers came from all over the region to
>learn from them.
I'm always amazed at how a singer's concept of a song changes with changes
of place-name - especially since these are almost the first feature of a
song to be changed in oral transmission.
The way I heard the song was
"Farewell tae Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill
The green land o' Crimond, I bid ye fareweel
I'm bound out for Greenland, and ready tae sail
In hopes tae find riches, a-huntin' the whale"
Now I realise that other people locate the song entirely differently from
me, Tarwathie becomes Malin Head (I can see Malin Head from where I live
and I know there was no whaling from any north Irish port) and the green
land (naturally) become Ireland. Such is the power of stereotype. These
are not critical comments, just the beginning of an inkling that if we're
going to have a global village we also need microscopes.
Or should we bother? I'm also now a bit uneasy about posting "facts" about
songs to the whole group - all very well to answer the query of someone
who is disturbed by an inconsistency - by why should Steve not be left
with his way of the song if it's satisfying. Please, if you have Tarwathie
with different place-names, stick to them. All the different versions of
traditional songs we have came about because of accidental or deliberate
change by creative ordinary people. The imposition of "facts" upon the
tradition could lead to distortion.
So Heather - if you want to make it Skye - find a place in that area that
Mormond can be changed to.
And yet it's arguable: everybody does sing "Farewell tae Tarwathie"; or do
they - are we stuck with that too?
The only criteria in my mind for judging songs are aesthetic ones, if you
can find a set of names which is satisfying aesthetically as well as
geographically consistent, go with them. The problem with Tarwathie, in
part, is that its construction sticks it in the past and we don't want
that, we want a singing tradition which is for today.
?Provocative, or incomprehensible?
jmoul...@aol.com
In article <32F3BC...@worldnet.att.net>, Stephen Suffet
<Suf...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I will also now sing Mormond Hill rather than Malin Head, and
>fair land of Crimond instead of E'ireann. Or else I will go all the
>way and Hibernicise the song completely. In which case it will stay
>ti'r uaithi, Mailin Head, and E'ireann. :-)
I think these, despite the smiley, are real alternatives - and have said
so in the context of the thread started by Stephen's conjecture.
Stephen Suffet
> Singer, Percussionist, Writer, Lecturer,
> Researcher, Publisher, Song Hunter
> Ulstersongs Mail Order (Books and Cassettes)
> http://members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.htm
Greetings---
Thank you, John, for your sympathetic analysis of my poor aural
perception! But you make a good point about the oral (and aural)
tradition. And the evolution (convolution?) of song is what attracts
me to folk music in the first place.
Maybe I will move the whole story to America after all. Here's my
new first stanza:
Farewell to Kentucky,
Adieu Tennessee,
The green Appalachians,
It's farewell to thee.
I'm bound for New England,
And ready to sail,
In hopes to find riches,
In hunting the whale.
(Copyright 1997 Stephen L. Suffet)
The remainder of the song shall remain as is. Well, I mean as is
according to me. :-)
Regards again,
Stephen Suffet
jmoul...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <32F4EA...@worldnet.att.net>, Stephen Suffet
> <Suf...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> >Maybe I will move the whole story to America after all. Here's my
> >new first stanza:
> >
> > Farewell to Kentucky,
> > Adieu Tennessee,
> > The green Appalachians,
> > It's farewell to thee.
> > I'm bound for New England,
> > And ready to sail,
> > In hopes to find riches,
> > In hunting the whale.
> >
> > (Copyright 1997 Stephen L. Suffet)
> >
> >The remainder of the song shall remain as is. Well, I mean as is
> >according to me. :-)
>
>
> Farewell to New Bedford, adieu Buzzard's Bay
> Past Nantucket Island we're sailing away ...
>
> at least there was whaling from the Massachusetts ports - anybody sailed
> out of Kentucky lately? (And do I get copyright as well!)
>
> John Moulden
> Singer, Percussionist, Writer, Lecturer,
> Researcher, Publisher, Song Hunter
> Ulstersongs Mail Order (Books and Cassettes)
> http://members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.htm
Dear John---
Whoops! I fear you missed the point. My singer is leaving the
Appalachian mountains for New England. It's there (out of New Bedford,
Portsmouth, Portland, etc.) that he will sign onto a whaler.
But maybe then he will sing your lyrics! :-)
Regards again,
Steve
