norteno??
Susan Sterngold
and realize that I have no idea who does this stuff or how to find it.
Tex Mex is not exactly it nor is the "world" music from Mexico--I guess I
need some artists' names or a category which describes it...do you know any??
thanks
Mark Rubin
The term "Norteno" means literally "of the North" which in this case would
mean music as performed in northern Mexico or south Texas. Generally
speaking, only a Mexican person would use the term.
The Tejano (Spanish speaking, Texas born residents) musicians who perform
the old-style, accordion driven polka and waltz music pefer the term "Tex-Mex",
which stands for "Texas-Mexican", deliniating them from their non-US citizen
cousins.
It's semantics really, as they music is at it's base essentially the same, however
it's important to note that the style originated in Texas, much the same way
French speaking Louisiana residents begat "Cajun" music and is not by any
means a foreign or "world" genre.
Tops in the Tex-Mex field would be Santiago Jimenez, Jr., younger brother of
the better known Flaco, and son of the great accordion pioneer Don Santiago
Jimenez. Check out his latest CD on Watermelon, "Musica de Tiempos del Pasado,
del Presente y de Futuro" WM 1035.
You can see photos of him playing at
http://www.hyperweb.com/badlivers/photo.html
M.Rubin
Austin TX
William Wagman
quite a lot of it. They are related to Arhoolie Records on which a lot of
norteno music has been recorded as well. You can probably get an Arhoolie
catalog from Down Home also.
Susan Sterngold (susa...@cloud9.net) wrote:
: HI--I was looking in the Elderly catalog for norteno type polka music
: and realize that I have no idea who does this stuff or how to find it.
: Tex Mex is not exactly it nor is the "world" music from Mexico--I guess I
: need some artists' names or a category which describes it...do you know
: any??
: thanks
--
Bill Wagman
Univ. Ca. Davis
KDVS Radio - 90.3 FM
wjwa...@ucdavis.edu
(916) 757-8786
Jeff Myers
male lead singers, like Los Penguinos del Norte. Any suggestions for
other groups with this style of singing?
Thanks,
Jeff Myers
Ted Samsel
:
: The term "Norteno" means literally "of the North" which in this case would
: speaking, only a Mexican person would use the term.
:
: The Tejano (Spanish speaking, Texas born residents) musicians who perform
: the old-style, accordion driven polka and waltz music pefer the term "Tex-Mex",
: which stands for "Texas-Mexican", deliniating them from their non-US citizen
: cousins.
:
: It's semantics really, as they music is at it's base essentially the same, however
: it's important to note that the style originated in Texas, much the same way
: French speaking Louisiana residents begat "Cajun" music and is not by any
: means a foreign or "world" genre.
Amen, Brother Mark!
: Tops in the Tex-Mex field would be Santiago Jimenez, Jr., younger brother of
: the better known Flaco, and son of the great accordion pioneer Don Santiago
: Jimenez. Check out his latest CD on Watermelon, "Musica de Tiempos del Pasado,
: del Presente y de Futuro" WM 1035.
: You can see photos of him playing at
: http://www.hyperweb.com/badlivers/photo.html
:
Lest we forget:
Valerio Longoria, Narciso Martinez, Mingo Saldivar y Joe Patek (?!)
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net *1996* Year of the Accordion~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Home of the brave, land of the free,
I don't want to be mistreated by no bourgoisie."
Huddie Ledbetter
Pete Nalda
new on CD. Texas Accordion Pioneers, which includes historic recordings
from Narciso Martinez, Santiago Jimenez, and others. Also a release of
Flaco's early years, which includes the period in which he played with
"Los Caminantes".
For what it's worth, these are great examples of the music of which y'all
are speaking.
Also one other comment about the term "norteno". Norteno music from
northern Mexico is somewhat different in style than the above artists in
that bands usually have a sax doubling with the accordionist.
--
Pete Nalda
Mark Rubin
northern Mexico is somewhat different in style than the above artists in
that bands usually have a sax doubling with the accordionist."
Not quite.
The sax was indeed originally made popular by northern Mexican groups like
the phenominally successful Los Alegeres de Teran in the late forties/early
fifties, and more recently with great groups like Los Hermanos Barron de
Monterrey.
It would be incorrect to assume, however, that any group using sax w/the
accordion would be Mexican, and hence "norteno".
Here in Austin TX, far from the Rio Grande border region known simply as "The
Valley", accordionist Johnny DeGollado has led a conjunto w/sax for nearly 35
yrs. And Corpus Christi (i think) Texas based Roberto Pulido, featured not one
but two saxes along with accordion in his group until his recent crossover into
the more modern "Tejano" sound.
M.Rubin
Ted Samsel
:
: The sax was indeed originally made popular by northern Mexican groups like
: fifties, and more recently with great groups like Los Hermanos Barron de
: Monterrey.
:
: It would be incorrect to assume, however, that any group using sax w/the
: accordion would be Mexican, and hence "norteno".
:
: Here in Austin TX, far from the Rio Grande border region known simply as "The
: Valley", accordionist Johnny DeGollado has led a conjunto w/sax for nearly 35
: yrs. And Corpus Christi (i think) Texas based Roberto Pulido, featured not one
: but two saxes along with accordion in his group until his recent crossover into
: the more modern "Tejano" sound.
To get an idea of this, check out the Beto Villa CD on Arhoolie. There's
even an orquestra ver. of BLACK & WHITE RAG. Good stuff.
Sax & accordion galore....
Pete Nalda
> "Also one other comment about the term "norteno". Norteno music from
> northern Mexico is somewhat different in style than the above artists in
> that bands usually have a sax doubling with the accordionist."
>
> Not quite.
AAAAhhhh! Ya got me! As I read your reply, I was thinking, oooops. I
even have some recordings with Tony De La Rosa playing with a sax
player,as well as a tape of Johnny's. Also there are the
conjunto/orquestra experiments Narciso Martinez did with saxman Beto Villa
(Pachuca Blues, San Antonio Rose).
Sorry for the oversight, and glad you corrected me.
>
> The sax was indeed originally made popular by northern Mexican groups like
> the phenominally successful Los Alegeres de Teran in the late forties/early
> fifties, and more recently with great groups like Los Hermanos Barron de
> Monterrey.
>
> It would be incorrect to assume, however, that any group using sax w/the
> accordion would be Mexican, and hence "norteno".
>
> Here in Austin TX, far from the Rio Grande border region known simply as "The
> Valley", accordionist Johnny DeGollado has led a conjunto w/sax for nearly 35
> yrs. And Corpus Christi (i think) Texas based Roberto Pulido, featured
not one
> but two saxes along with accordion in his group until his recent
crossover into
> the more modern "Tejano" sound.
>
> M.Rubin
--
Pete Nalda
EllenBass
"waiting for norteno." What would that mean in this context, or is there
another definition?
_______________________________________________________
EllenBass
"In the day to day, in the face to face, I've got to act as strong as I
can, just to preserve a place where I can be who I am." Ani
Tom Ekeberg
>The term "Norteno" means literally "of the North" which in this case would
>mean music as performed in northern Mexico or south Texas. Generally
>speaking, only a Mexican person would use the term.
>
>The Tejano (Spanish speaking, Texas born residents) musicians who perform
>the old-style, accordion driven polka and waltz music pefer the term "Tex-Mex",
>which stands for "Texas-Mexican", deliniating them from their non-US citizen
>cousins.
>
Hey Mark (or anybody else)
This is interesting, because I've often seen different words used to describe
different kinds of Tex-Mex and Mexican music. I have a vauge idea about the
differences, but if you, or somebody else, would like to elaborate on this some
more, I'd be grateful.
Norteno and Tex-Mex/Tejano have been mentioned, what about Conjunto, Orquestas
Tipicas, Mariachi, Border Music and so on. And what about the music played in
California, like Los Lobos on La Pistola Y El Corazon (or did they get the songs
from Texas)?
Some of this may seem pretty obvious, but I'd like to see some definitions and some
guidelines as to what kinds of music are/are not included by the different terms,
what (who) influenced what (who), when the different terms should be used (or
avoided), some names...
>It's semantics really, as they music is at it's base essentially the same, however
>it's important to note that the style originated in Texas, much the same way
>French speaking Louisiana residents begat "Cajun" music and is not by any
>means a foreign or "world" genre.
>
I agree that none of this is "world" music. But since world music is an
international term, how can it not be world music because it's not foreign? I mean
klezmer is not turned into world music when y'all are playing it, and bluegrass
would not be world music if it was played by a Canadian band. What, exactly, do you
mean by world music? (Just asking a question here, not trying to start an
argument.)
>Tops in the Tex-Mex field would be Santiago Jimenez, Jr., younger brother of
>the better known Flaco, and son of the great accordion pioneer Don Santiago
>Jimenez. Check out his latest CD on Watermelon, "Musica de Tiempos del Pasado,
>del Presente y de Futuro" WM 1035.
I agree. It's a great CD!
Tom Ekeberg
Oslo, Norway
(And I don't care about what kind of footwear you wear on stage)
PS. Any chance to see Bad Livers in Norway any time soon?
Joel Madrigal
been mentioned either in this thread, nor in this newsgroup. He's an
incredible accordionist and a pleasure to watch live.
Joel
Mark Rubin
Joel"
Ditto that.
Personally, I'd love to hear more chatter about Ayala and his Bravos del Norte.
Or Narciso Martinez, El Hurranan del Valle or The Montopolis Kid, Austin TX's
own Johnny DeGollado, or well... I could go on, but I'm not certian there's a
whole of folks interested in this particular variety of accordion music.
I'd like to be proven wrong.
Mark Rubin
"Norteno and Tex-Mex/Tejano have been mentioned, what about Conjunto,
Orquestas Tipicas, Mariachi, Border Music and so on. "
Brother, have you opened up a can of worms.
I'm no ethno-musicologist or anything, more like a freaked out fan than
anything else. But here's how I've been led to understand. Any of ya'll are
welcome to correct any discrepencies.
"Conjunto"= literally the spanish word for "group"
Somehow or another this sobriquet was attached to the Tex-Mex dance music,
probably by an anglo music reveiwer in the not to distant past. When point
blanked asked "What is the proper name for your music, Santiago Jimenez, Jr.
and Toby Torres both said 'Tex-Mex' or 'Tex-Mex conjunto'" So you can see how
the shortened"conjunto" got started.
"Orquestas Tipicas"= literally a "typical orchestra", almost always Mexican.
Now what that is can vary wildly from region to region. Usually ,it just refers
to whatever kind of band gets together in that town, for instance in Jalisco,
Mexico you'd find a lot of trumpets and violins, but in Oaxaca you'd find a
diatonic harp (Harpe Grande) and rthym guitar-like instruments called
requinos and such.
Good examples include:
Juan Reynoso: Plays Sones y Gustos, Corason/Rounder CD COCD105
Los Camperos de Valles: Sones de La Huasteca, Corason/Rounder CD COCD14
Corason also has a great compliation CD as well.
Now to confuse the issue further, during the 50's Texas saw the rise of what are
referred to a "Orquesta Tejana", which are basically hispanic big bands w/
their roots in polka and bolero music. These are slick and urbane, very unlke
the "Tipicas"
Check out Beto Villa (CD365) and Isidrio Lopez both on Arhoolie.
On to "Mariachi" which I know little about other than 1) it's originally from
Jalisco, Mexico and that The Mariachi Reyes del Aserrando (Corason/Rounder
COCD108) kick serious ass there, 2) Mariachi Vargas de Tecalitlan (Arhoolie
CD7015) are the grand daddy's of the form, helping it become popular all over
Mexico, especially in the capitol of Mexico City where they are still based out of
, 3) it's concidered a vulgar, declasse', middle class indulgence by the snooty
Mexicans I know, 4) you have to like trumpets to get into it and finally 5) 2 CDs
go a long way for Mariachi.
-BTW: should you be serenaded by a mariachi group at a resturant, remember
should they play your request (hint: Viva Tijuana is a goodern') you must pay
each musician one dollar (USD), per song, each. Ergo 7 mariachi X 3 songs = $21,
(better tip $4 at least)." He who calls the tune must pay the piper," or vihuellist
in this case.-
"And what about the music played in California, like Los Lobos on La Pistola Y El
Corazon (or did they get the songs from Texas)?"
Frets magazine did a great peice on that recording of that record, which I could
hardly elborate on. As is outlined in detail in that article , all of the traditional
material from that record comes in fact from southern Mexico. The 2 origianl
tunes are marvelous blends of several different styles, including Tex-Mex. As to
what hispanic folks from California call their music, I must differ to someone
from there, as I avoid southern California as much as is possible.
"Some of this may seem pretty obvious,"
Hardly.
All I know is what I read on CD covers, myself. And I've got a lot of CDs.
"I agree that none of this is "world" music. But since world music is an
international term, how can it not be world music because it's not foreign? I
mean klezmer is not turned into world music when y'all are playing it, and
bluegrass would not be world music if it was played by a Canadian band. What,
exactly, do you mean by world music? (Just asking a question here, not trying
to start an argument.)"
No argument here.
I was absent mindedly addressing fellow American citizens, momentarilly
excluding all those other folks who might be reading this halfway 'round the
globe, like yourself.
You point is well taken, and again only a question of semantics.
>Tops in the Tex-Mex field would be Santiago Jimenez, Jr., younger brother of
>the better known Flaco, and son of the great accordion pioneer Don Santiago
>Jimenez. Check out his latest CD on Watermelon, "Musica de Tiempos del Pasado,
>del Presente y de Futuro" WM 1035.
"I agree. It's a great CD!
Tom Ekeberg
Oslo, Norway
(And I don't care about what kind of footwear you wear on stage)"
But Trygve does, and he signs the checks, if you know what I mean.
This is an arcane refference to be sure, but thanks for the thought, anyway.
"PS. Any chance to see Bad Livers in Norway any time soon?"
To quote Django Reinhart : "Tommorrow, maybe."
Sure, why not. All we need is 3 plane tickets and some money.
wolfgang
> Personally, I'd love to hear more chatter about Ayala and his Bravos del
Norte.
> Or Narciso Martinez, El Hurranan del Valle or The Montopolis Kid, Austin TX's
> own Johnny DeGollado, or well... I could go on, but I'm not certian there's a
> whole of folks interested in this particular variety of accordion music.
> I'd like to be proven wrong.
I definitely have to go along with your Jordan choice. And don't forget
the sweet sounds of Valerio Longoria.
Pete Nalda
> "I find it quite amazing that Ramon Ayala, El Rey del Accordion, hasn't
> been mentioned either in this thread, nor in this newsgroup. He's an
> incredible accordionist and a pleasure to watch live.
>
> Joel"
>
> Ditto that.
> Personally, I'd love to hear more chatter about Ayala and his Bravos del
Norte.
> Or Narciso Martinez
Ok, here's a bit of trivia about Martinez. In the liner notes to
Arhoolie's Martinez there's a statement that some of the biggest buyers of
Martinez's records in the '30's were Basque Sheepherders.
, El Hurranan del Valle or The Montopolis Kid, Austin TX's
> own Johnny DeGollado, or well... I could go on, but I'm not certian there's a
> whole of folks interested in this particular variety of accordion music.
> I'd like to be proven wrong.
>
>
> Mark
> http://www.hyperweb.com/badlivers
--
Pete Nalda
Mike Maddux
lpn...@bga.com says...
>
>Ok, here's a bit of trivia about Martinez. In the liner notes to
>Arhoolie's Martinez there's a statement that some of the biggest buyers
of
>Martinez's records in the '30's were Basque Sheepherders.
Wow! Do you suppose Martinez's polkas, redovas and mazurkas caused the
sheep to produce better wool? This could revolutionize modern wool
production!
Mike
RNABooking
Hank's Roadhouse (Austin) on Sunday and a bunch of really great Austin
musicians were singing gospel. Malford Milligan, Larry Fulcher, Paul
Mills, the guitar player from the Killer Bees (I don't know his name) and
Scrappy (?) were doing five part harmonies of all gospel music. When we
walked in they were sing "halleluya" big time. I mean this was really
great. The show is free but they pass a collection plate and donate the
money to charity. This is truly a labor of love. Miss Lavelle got up and
sang a couple of gospel numbers...Lavelle and Malford singing "Amazing
Grace" together was chilling. I haven't been to church in a few (make that
several) decades and this felt really right. It's from 6 to 8 every
Sunday...for a while.
Ronnie Narmour
Ted Samsel
A great summation of all those styles....
But to add gusanos al lata (worms to the can of worms), there are
several other more contemporary styles from the NW part of Mejico.
These are "bandas" which come from Sinaloa and Nayarit... sort of
a mix of all of these styles.. (ex. Sonora Dinamita)
and then there's QUEBRADITA which is really modern (??) sort of
"industrial norte~o dance mix with synth/horns and a reggae/soca
sort of riddim" (my take on it..).. A big stomp dance sorta thing
with guys in big hats (Barf Grooks-ish not charro style) dancing
around their novias o chamacas.
Mike Maddux
>
>wolfgang (wolf...@texas.net) wrote:
>:
>: > Personally, I'd love to hear more chatter about Ayala and his Bravos
del
>: Norte.
>: > Or Narciso Martinez, El Hurranan del Valle or The Montopolis Kid,
>: > own Johnny DeGollado, or well... I could go on, but I'm not certian
there's a
>: > whole of folks interested in this particular variety of accordion
music.
>: > I'd like to be proven wrong.
>: I definitely have to go along with your Jordan choice. And don't
>: the sweet sounds of Valerio Longoria.
>
had
>a bass (toloche) player who had a setup on his axe where he could
seemingly
>set it on fire, thus adding to the excitement of the act.
>
When I saw Narcisso Martinez at the San Antonio Conjunto Festival (4 or 5
years ago), his bass player did this. He just poured lighter fluid on
the back of his bass and lit it. The bass itself didn't catch fire,
although I don't know why.
Mike
Ted Samsel
:
: > Personally, I'd love to hear more chatter about Ayala and his Bravos del
: Norte.
: > Or Narciso Martinez, El Hurranan del Valle or The Montopolis Kid, Austin TX's
: > own Johnny DeGollado, or well... I could go on, but I'm not certian there's a
: > whole of folks interested in this particular variety of accordion music.
: > I'd like to be proven wrong.
:
: I definitely have to go along with your Jordan choice. And don't forget
: the sweet sounds of Valerio Longoria.
According to Pe~a's text on conjunto, in the late 40's & '50s, Longoria had
a bass (toloche) player who had a setup on his axe where he could seemingly
set it on fire, thus adding to the excitement of the act.
You ever thought of doing that Mark?
Mark Rubin
had
>a bass (toloche) player who had a setup on his axe where he could
seemingly
>set it on fire, thus adding to the excitement of the act.
>
"When I saw Narcisso Martinez at the San Antonio Conjunto Festival (4 or 5
years ago), his bass player did this. He just poured lighter fluid on
the back of his bass and lit it. The bass itself didn't catch fire,
although I don't know why.
Mike"
Ya'll are reffering to my hero, the late Juan Viesca," el Rey de
Tololoche."(Tololoche is San Antonio spanish-slang for slap, upright bass
fiddle) He recorded extensively from the early 30's with every great San
Antonio conjunto, eventually forming , with accordionist Fred Zimmerle, El
Trio de San Antonio. Check out their fabulous Arhoolie LP, "Viva el West Side",
which includes a recording of Viesca on the violin as well.
Setting his bass afire was only one a a dozen acrobatic routines he was famous
for.(Check the liner notes of Santiago Jimenez, Jr's "Canciones de Mi Padre" CD
Watermelon Records WM1019 for a complete descripition.)
But by the time Mike saw him, he had grown so bored of the shtick that was
expected of him that he only half heartedly went through the motions.
I'm told of a festival a few years earlier, where he lit up the bass and couldn't
put it out.
PS: There exists a short film of Viesca's routine that ran on Univision on the
day he passed away. Anybody out there know how I could procure a copy?
Mark