Will Geer info?
Max Wallace
I recently got into a discussion about Will Geer (Grandpa Walton on the
Waltons) and it occurred to me that, although he is one of the most
important figures in the history of American folk music, I have never
heard any of his music.
I know that he introduced Woody Guthrie to Pete Seeger, Alan Lomax and
Leadbelly (not to mention the Communist Party) and that he organized the
famous Grapes of Wrath benefit for California farmworkers and convinced
Guthrie to move to New York.
But was any of his music (especially his duets with Guthrie) ever recorded?
And was he any good? I've only been able to find him narrating Guthrie
tributes. If anybody knows where I can find this info, I'd appreciate it.
MIKE REGENSTREIF
I don't believe that Will Geer was ever a singer or musician; at least
not professionally. So far as I know, his connection to the folk scene was
through his friendship with folksingers like Woody Guthrie.
He was also the father-in-law of folksinger Peter Alsop who was/is
married to Ellen Geer.
MR
Max Wallace
Will Geer was definitely a folksinger. He travelled frequently with Woody
Guthrie and later Pete Seeger singing (and prosyletizing for the Party) at
rallies, benefits, work camps, etc. Many accounts of the Grapes of Wrath
benefit note that it was organized by "actor/folksinger" Will Geer.
MIKE REGENSTREIF
I just checked Pete Seeger's description of the Grapes of Wrath benefit
(The Incompleat Folksinger, p. 42). Will Geer is described by Pete as "MC of
the show."
Earlier in the page, Pete writes: "Woody was introduced to Will Geer,
the actor, who was doing benefits to raise money for the migratory labor camps.
Woody came along and dived into the struggle. He became a close friend of Will
Geer and his family. Through Will, Woody started to make a living singing at
fundraising parties around Los Angeles."
The only reference to Will Geer in the Seeger biography "How Can I Keep
From Singing" by David King Dunaway mentions "radical actor Will Geer (p. 64)."
I also checked the many references to Geer in "Woody Guthrie: A Life"
by Joe Klein. It seems that Geer often performed with folksingers, including
Woody Guthrie, acting out the songs as they sang. There are also other
references to him as an MC at folk music events and to being in the cast of
shows (The Martins & the McCoys) which also included folksingers.
MR
Henry L. Lefkowitz
Well, you might want to ask Will himself. Trying to find out some more
information on this interesting question (I enjoyed Geer on the Waltons,
but I knew nothing of his past politics or influence on folk music), I
did an Infoseek search on "Will Geer" and found a site advertising a tape
by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross about life-after-death, which purportedly
includes the voice of Will Geer from beyond the grave!:)
---
Henry Lefkowitz
hen...@moon.jic.com
Max Wallace
Since my initial posting, I received an email from a woman whose
grandmother says that she saw Geer perform and that "he was quite a good
singer but not in the same league as Woody Guthrie".
I also found this passage in Geer's bio posted at the theatre company he
founded in Topanga Canyon, California, the Will Geer Theatricum Botanicum:
"Will was a folk singer of some repute, and he, along with Woody Guthrie and
Burl Ives, toured the country during the Depression singing mostly at
government work camps. They remained close friends throughout the years."
However, there was never any suggestion that he sang at the Grapes of
Wrath benefit. Although several accounts of the evening call him
"actor/folksinger Will Geer", he definitely acted as the MC only, as
Seeger points out.
Sandra Sparks
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
It was so long ago I can't remember the circumstances, but I did hear
Will Geer sing, some old time ballad. Now: here's another one: Did you
ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
Sandra Sparks
RJGra
>Did you
>ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
I remember picking up an Alan Arkin folk album ("When Dalliance Was in Flower,
Volume 1") a long time ago in a cut out bin. Only listened to it once and
don't remember anything about it other than Alan was on Volume 1 (with others),
but not on Volume 2.
Bob Graham
Joel Weber
> "Will was a folk singer of some repute, and he, along with Woody Guthrie and
> Burl Ives, toured the country during the Depression singing mostly at
> government work camps. They remained close friends throughout the years."
=========
This is a great (and most interesting thread). Now the insertion of
Burl. Some (maybe many) yearI heard a band do a tune entitled "Grand
Canyon Waltz" which was supposed to have been written and performed by
Burl. Anybody ever heard of it or know if there's a recording
available.
I'v come to the conclusion that this group is amazing. No question is
too obscure.
joel
Rob Kowalewski
In article <6n381g$5...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, Joel Weber
<RETRO...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I agree with Joel about this group, but in this case, I'm not sure that
obscurity is necessarily a bad thing. It seems that true Folk-O-Philes have
always been able to find it, and it seems to stay on topic almost all the
time. I fear that would change if the group suddenly gained mass notice.
Just a thought,
Rob K.
--
rdk...@concentric.net
Unknown
rj...@aol.com (RJGra) wrote:
IIRC those albums were mainly Ed McCurdy, though Alan Arkin played
recorder and sometimes sang backup.
Howard Shidlowsky
Owl wrote:
> rj...@aol.com (RJGra) wrote:
>
> >>Did you
> >>ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
> >
Alan Arkin was also a member of the Babysitters with Lee Hayes.
Howard Shidlowsky
Michael Black
I guess this is as good a place as any to add something.
I guess I knew about Grampa Walton before I knew about Woody Guthrie
though not by much. By the time Bound for Glory came out, I knew that
Will Geer had some connection to Woody, and was the same Will Geer that
played Grampa Walton.
This is the first I've heard of Will Geer being a folksinger. I've
read all the books that Mike Regenstreif mentions below, so that must
be where I get the information.
I don't know where I learned this, but Will Geer was blacklisted. The
only way he could perform was by putting on shows himself. He acted in
the movie "Salt of the Earth", during the time when he was blacklisted.
Presumably he had some other connection to the film other than as an
actor.
Will Geer shows up in "Bound for Glory" towards the end. That would
be why I knew who he was by the time the film came out. It's just
after the audition in The Rainbow Room. Woody says "It was my old friend,
Will Geer, an actor playing the lead part of Jeeter Lester in the play,
Tobacco Road...." At the end of the movie, he morphs into Ozark Bule
(played by Ronny Cox) who tries to get him to return to the Rainbow Room,
and yells after Woody as he hops a train. I don't think there was an
Osark Bule, so he was probably a composite that included a good portion
of Will. I suspect if I reread the book (which is a great book apart
from who wrote it), this all might be clearer.
You might also want to check "Pastures of Plenty" by Woody that came out
in 1990. I've started to read it, but have never gotten into it. Same
thing happened with "Seeds of Man", so one of these days I will read it.
But I think it covers the Will Geer era. The book is Woody's writings,
but it's been compiled by others into the form of a book. One chapter
is introduced by "In 1940 Woody Guthrie came to New York at the behest
of the radical actor Will Geer, then appearing Broadway. Geer, who
was among Woody's first associates on the Hollywood left, not only
brought Woody to town, he helped him find work and a place to live."
The book includes some pictures of Woody taken by Will Geer. In the
back of the book there are some short blurbs of various people in
Woody's life, and Will's says "Actor (stage, screen, tv). Geer recruited
Woody to left politics in the late thirties, brought him to New York
and put him on the stage and on radio in the early forties. They remained
close friends to the end of Guthrie's life."
I can't think of anywhere else to look at the moment. I suspect Will
Geer's life would make an interesting book.
Michael
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, MIKE REGENSTREIF wrote:
> In article <6mfg26$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) writes:
> >
> >MIKE REGENSTREIF (mre...@vax2.concordia.ca) writes:
> >> In article <6m8tgv$f...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) writes:
> >>>
> >>>I recently got into a discussion about Will Geer (Grandpa Walton on the
> >>>Waltons) and it occurred to me that, although he is one of the most
> >>>important figures in the history of American folk music, I have never
> >>>heard any of his music.
> >>>
> >>>I know that he introduced Woody Guthrie to Pete Seeger, Alan Lomax and
> >>>Leadbelly (not to mention the Communist Party) and that he organized the
> >>>famous Grapes of Wrath benefit for California farmworkers and convinced
> >>>Guthrie to move to New York.
> >>>
> >>>But was any of his music (especially his duets with Guthrie) ever recorded?
> >>>And was he any good? I've only been able to find him narrating Guthrie
> >>>tributes. If anybody knows where I can find this info, I'd appreciate it.
> >>
> >> I don't believe that Will Geer was ever a singer or musician; at least
> >> not professionally. So far as I know, his connection to the folk scene was
> >> through his friendship with folksingers like Woody Guthrie.
> >>
> >> He was also the father-in-law of folksinger Peter Alsop who was/is
> >> married to Ellen Geer.
> >>
> >Will Geer was definitely a folksinger. He travelled frequently with Woody
> >Guthrie and later Pete Seeger singing (and prosyletizing for the Party) at
> >rallies, benefits, work camps, etc. Many accounts of the Grapes of Wrath
> >benefit note that it was organized by "actor/folksinger" Will Geer.
>
> I just checked Pete Seeger's description of the Grapes of Wrath benefit
> (The Incompleat Folksinger, p. 42). Will Geer is described by Pete as "MC of
> the show."
>
> Earlier in the page, Pete writes: "Woody was introduced to Will Geer,
> the actor, who was doing benefits to raise money for the migratory labor camps.
> Woody came along and dived into the struggle. He became a close friend of Will
> Geer and his family. Through Will, Woody started to make a living singing at
> fundraising parties around Los Angeles."
>
> The only reference to Will Geer in the Seeger biography "How Can I Keep
> From Singing" by David King Dunaway mentions "radical actor Will Geer (p. 64)."
>
> I also checked the many references to Geer in "Woody Guthrie: A Life"
> by Joe Klein. It seems that Geer often performed with folksingers, including
> Woody Guthrie, acting out the songs as they sang. There are also other
> references to him as an MC at folk music events and to being in the cast of
> shows (The Martins & the McCoys) which also included folksingers.
>
> MR
>
>
Eric Hasselwander
In article <robk-ya02408000R...@news.concentric.net>,
great fan of that show and once wondered if he was a folk singer? He seemed
to be in that mold.
Abby Sale
On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:55:34 GMT, (Owl) wrote:
>rj...@aol.com (RJGra) wrote:
>
>>>Did you
>>>ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
>>
>>I remember picking up an Alan Arkin folk album ("When Dalliance Was in Flower,
>>Volume 1") a long time ago in a cut out bin. Only listened to it once and
>>don't remember anything about it other than Alan was on Volume 1 (with others),
>>but not on Volume 2.
or on the rest of them. I don't have 1. but I have come across the
following, posted by some maniac here in March of 1994:
Folksinger Alan Arkin b3/26/1934. Was with the Babysitters, including Lee
Hays, Doris Kaplan, and others & also with The Terriers
Appeared on: Best of the Baby Sitters, 1959; Weavers at Carnegie Hall,
Vol. 2, 1960; Greatest Songs of Woody Guthrie, 1972; Folk Song America,
Vol. 2, 1991
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abby...@orlinter.com (That's in Orlando)
Max Wallace
Another interesting element of Geer's life was his fight for gay rights.
He was the long-time lover of gay rights pioneer Harry Hay, founder of the
Radical Faeries Society and, although Geer married and had a daughter, he
never wavered in his support for the rights of gays and lesbians.
What makes this ironic is the fact that the Waltons appears daily and
exclusively on the Family Channel, which is owned by the arch-right wing
Christian Coalition (Pat Robertson), who are no doubt unaware that Grandpa
Walton was a gay communist. Actually, the Waltons gave work to many
formerly blacklisted lefties both in front of the camera and behind the
scenes.
Irwin Silber
June 29, 1998
From: Irwin Silber <isi...@igc.apc.org>
Anyone wanting to know more about Will Geer and his politics might look
for Will's testimony before the House Committee on Un-American
Activities on April 11, 1951. Like most people hauled before HUAC in
those days, Will declined to answer all the commit tee's political
questions on the grounds that it might incriminate him. But in the
process, he managed to highlight the ridiculousness of the committee's
inquisition. Such as when he told the committee that he was a
"conservationist" by philosophy. Thi s apparently confused the
Committee Counsel, Richard Tavener, who repeated the word
"Conservationist?" to which Will responded, "I believe in returning the
land to the same shape we found it in."
At another point, when one of the Congressmen on the Committee asked
Will, "Do you believe Congress has the right to set up a Committee such
as this to search out subversive activities in this country?" the
following dialogue ensued:
Will: I'm an entertainer, not a lawyer. I wouldn't know whether it
would be right or not.
Kearny: Well you seem to have enough answers on all other subjects here.
Can't you answer that question yes or no?
WIll: In my opinion, I think it would be more important right now to
investigate inflation and the high cost of living.
Kearny: Well, I think you've got something there.
Will: Well, we all have to appear in a turkey once in a while.
Will Geer appeared at many folk music programs and emceed a number of
the hootenannies I produced in the fifties. And he wasn't bashful about
singing once in a while. But he was principally an actor -- and a very
talented one. His most famous role was as the star of what was then the
longest-running Broadway play ever, "Tobacco Road," written by Erskine
Caldwell, a role which required him, at one point, to urinate while on
stage.
Speaking about actor-folksingers, someone also asked about Alan Arkin,
who also was and is principally an actor. But Alan was also a member of
a group called The Tarriers in the fifties which made some records. He
also sang with Lee Hays and others as p art of a group called the
Baby-Sitters.
Frank Hamilton
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>I recently got into a discussion about Will Geer (Grandpa Walton on the
>Waltons) and it occurred to me that, although he is one of the most
>important figures in the history of American folk music, I have never
>heard any of his music.
Will never recorded any of his singing as far as I know. He had a
gruff, raspy but appealing barking kind of a voice and was such a good
actor that he could put any song across well.
>I know that he introduced Woody Guthrie to Pete Seeger, Alan Lomax and
>Leadbelly (not to mention the Communist Party)
Not sure about his introducing anyone to the Communist Party. I don't
think that any of the folk singers of that period needed to be
introduced. They all knew what it was. Not sure that he introduced
Pete to Woody. Where is the source for this? Alan would have
probably introduced Woody to Pete and Will.
and that he organized the
>famous Grapes of Wrath benefit for California farmworkers and convinced
>Guthrie to move to New York.
He headed the Folkway Theater group in New York. Put on a lot of folk
concerts.
>But was any of his music (especially his duets with Guthrie) ever recorded?
There might be some tapes floating around that were made when he lived
in Topanga Canyon, California.
>And was he any good?
Will was a marvelous actor and performer. His voice was certainly not
trained in the manner of an opera or art song singer. It was rough,
coarse, and appealing. He often growled through a song but it was
very entertaining. He was a fabulous story teller and could keep you
in stitiches with his renditions of parodies.
I've only been able to find him narrating Guthrie
>tributes. If anybody knows where I can find this info, I'd appreciate it
Will understood folk music and was a catalyst for making a lot of it
happen.
I met Will when I was a teen-ager and he introduced me to Pete Seeger,
Weavers, Cisco Huston, Bess Hawes and many more. He was a generous
man, an outspoken opponent to Senator McCarthy who forced him into
another job that he liked, that of a landscape architect. He has an
illustrious history in the theater where he appeared in the original
production of Tobacco Road as the lead charcater. He has done
Shakespeare (Coriolanus) on Broadway and probably countless movies.
Grandpa Walton was an afterthought. His talent was already well
established.
Frank Haimilton
Frank Hamilton
Michael Black <blac...@CAM.ORG> wrote:
>I don't know where I learned this, but Will Geer was blacklisted. The
>only way he could perform was by putting on shows himself.
He earned his living during that period as a landscape architect.
Worked for the architect in California named Garrett Eckbow. (Not sure
how to spell the last name).
He acted in
>the movie "Salt of the Earth", during the time when he was blacklisted.
>Presumably he had some other connection to the film other than as an
>actor.
Originally, Alan Arkin was going to be in the film. Jeff Corey was in
it but I think he used another name. Don Murray was in it I believe,
as well..
One chapter
>is introduced by "In 1940 Woody Guthrie came to New York at the behest
>of the radical actor Will Geer, then appearing Broadway. Geer, who
>was among Woody's first associates on the Hollywood left, not only
>brought Woody to town, he helped him find work and a place to live."
Woody lived in the seed shack of Will's home in Topanga Canyon . As a
kid, I used to go up to visit him and hang out with him.
>The book includes some pictures of Woody taken by Will Geer. In the
>back of the book there are some short blurbs of various people in
>Woody's life, and Will's says "Actor (stage, screen, tv). Geer recruited
>Woody to left politics in the late thirties, brought him to New York
>and put him on the stage and on radio in the early forties. They remained
>close friends to the end of Guthrie's life."
Woody owed a lot to Will who practically supported him during the hard
times.
>I can't think of anywhere else to look at the moment. I suspect Will
>Geer's life would make an interesting book.
Indeed it would! It's interesting that he never penned an
auitobiography. Maybe someone could get Ellen or Peter to do it. Or
Herta or Kate.
Frank Hamilton
Frank Hamilton
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>>
>Another interesting element of Geer's life was his fight for gay rights.
>He was the long-time lover of gay rights pioneer Harry Hay, founder of the
>Radical Faeries Society and, although Geer married and had a daughter,
Will had two daughters,Kate and Ellen and a son Tad. He was married
to Herta Weir who is a fine actress herself and a folk
singer/songwriter with a clear soprano. I was her on a segment of
Star Trek as Capt. Picard's mother.
he
>never wavered in his support for the rights of gays and lesbians.
>What makes this ironic is the fact that the Waltons appears daily and
>exclusively on the Family Channel, which is owned by the arch-right wing
>Christian Coalition (Pat Robertson), who are no doubt unaware that Grandpa
>Walton was a gay communist. Actually, the Waltons gave work to many
>formerly blacklisted lefties both in front of the camera and behind the
>scenes.
The Waltons was produced much later than the McCarthy era. Many
actors were liberated by the departure of McCarthy and worked on a
great many TV shows, not just the Waltons.
Frank Hamilton.
Frank Hamilton
andr...@mindspring.com (Sandra Sparks) wrote:
>ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>It was so long ago I can't remember the circumstances, but I did hear
>Will Geer sing, some old time ballad. Now: here's another one: Did you
>ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
>Sandra Sparks
Alan was in the original group, The Tarriers, with Bob Carey and Erik
Darling. They had a hit in the fifites called "The Banana Boat Song".
They also did backup work for Vince Martin's hit in the fifites called
"Cindy Oh Cindy". Alan is a great guitarist and singer and has
written some good songs. Early shows of the Second City out of
Chicago featured Alan with his guitar in some of the skits. He was
also in the group called the "Baby Sitters" with Lee Hays. Alan is a
good mu;sician.
Frank Hamilton
Frank Hamilton
(Owl) wrote:
>rj...@aol.com (RJGra) wrote:
>>>Did you
>>>ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
>>
>>I remember picking up an Alan Arkin folk album ("When Dalliance Was in Flower,
>>Volume 1") a long time ago in a cut out bin. Only listened to it once and
>>don't remember anything about it other than Alan was on Volume 1 (with others),
>>but not on Volume 2.
>>
>>Bob Graham
>>
>IIRC those albums were mainly Ed McCurdy, though Alan Arkin played
>recorder and sometimes sang backup.
I don't remember Alan being on that album but maybe he was. Most of
the backup was done by musician/folksinger extroardinaire Erik
Darling.
Frank Hamilton
Sandra Sparks
ham...@mindspring.com (Frank Hamilton) wrote:
>ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>>>
>>Another interesting element of Geer's life was his fight for gay rights.
>>He was the long-time lover of gay rights pioneer Harry Hay, founder of the
>>Radical Faeries Society and, although Geer married and had a daughter,
>Will had two daughters,Kate and Ellen and a son Tad. He was married
>to Herta Weir who is a fine actress herself and a folk
>singer/songwriter with a clear soprano. I was her on a segment of
>Star Trek as Capt. Picard's mother.
Thanks Frank! I thought Herta reminded me very much of someone, but I
couldn't place the resemblance! She and Ellen are very alike!
> he
>>never wavered in his support for the rights of gays and lesbians.
>>What makes this ironic is the fact that the Waltons appears daily and
>>exclusively on the Family Channel, which is owned by the arch-right wing
>>Christian Coalition (Pat Robertson), who are no doubt unaware that Grandpa
>>Walton was a gay communist. Actually, the Waltons gave work to many
>>formerly blacklisted lefties both in front of the camera and behind the
>>scenes.
I like that!
Lisa
That may be true but the Waltons in particular gave work to many who had
not worked for years and not just actors but other industry figures. It
may have been relatively easy for some of the prominent actors such as
Zero Mostel to return to Hollywood after the blacklist ended but others
didn't have as easy a time, not necessarily for political reasons but
because of many other factors such as lack of recent credits and
connections.
Max Wallace
Frank Hamilton (ham...@mindspring.com) writes:
> ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>
>
>>I recently got into a discussion about Will Geer (Grandpa Walton on the
>>Waltons) and it occurred to me that, although he is one of the most
>>important figures in the history of American folk music, I have never
>>heard any of his music.
>
>
> Will never recorded any of his singing as far as I know. He had a
> gruff, raspy but appealing barking kind of a voice and was such a good
> actor that he could put any song across well.
>
>
>>I know that he introduced Woody Guthrie to Pete Seeger, Alan Lomax and
>>Leadbelly (not to mention the Communist Party)
>
> Not sure about his introducing anyone to the Communist Party. I don't
> think that any of the folk singers of that period needed to be
> introduced. They all knew what it was. Not sure that he introduced
> Pete to Woody. Where is the source for this? Alan would have
> probably introduced Woody to Pete and Will.
There are a number of sources for this. The one closest to hand is a book
called Folk Music: More Than a Song by Kristin Baggelaar and Donald
Milton (page 161), which says that Geer sent the young Pete Seeger a copy of
Guthrie's mineographed songbook, On a Slow Train Through California and
invited him to the Grapes of Wrath Benefit which he organized where
Guthrie met Seeger for the first time.
As for Geer introducing Guthrie to the Communist Party, there are a number
of sources for this as well including the book quoted by somebody in this
thread which noted that Geer introduced Guthrie to "left politics". To say
that none of the folk singers of this period needed to be introduced to
the Communist Party is a pretty simplistic approach to history. They
didn't just stumble upon such radical concepts. Guthrie was actually quite
uncomfortable with being a member of any organization and was slightly
wary of the Party, although he liked a lot of the ideals, but Geer was a
passionate defender and quite the proselytizer, by all accounts, and he
recruited Woody to write a column for the Party newspaper the Daily
Worker. Geer's lover Harry Hay credited Geer for drilling left political
ideas into him in the 30's, ideas which later proved crucial when Hay became a
pioneer of the gay rights movement. It is an insult to Geer to downplay his
politicization of Guthrie and thus ignore his contribution to American folk
music.
People seem to be reluctant today to dwell too much on the Communist Party
and its influence on the folk music of this period, no doubt embarrassed
by the passionate defense of Stalin which went along with Party
affiliation. But I believe it is important in looking at the evolution of
American folk music to look at the Communist influence as well as the
influence of red-baiting on folkies and their music (read: Burl Ives,
among others) later on.
It is painful, for example, to listen to a bunch of Boy Scouts or
Christian revivalists sitting around a campfire singing This Land is Your
Land as if it was some kind of right wing patriotic folk song,
conveniently excising the verses which convey the unmistakable political
leanings of Guthrie and give the song its soul.
Frank Hamilton
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>
>>
>> Not sure about his introducing anyone to the Communist Party. I don't
>> think that any of the folk singers of that period needed to be
>> introduced. They all knew what it was. Not sure that he introduced
>> Pete to Woody. Where is the source for this? Alan would have
>> probably introduced Woody to Pete and Will.
>There are a number of sources for this. The one closest to hand is a book
>called Folk Music: More Than a Song by Kristin Baggelaar and Donald
>Milton (page 161), which says that Geer sent the young Pete Seeger a copy of
>Guthrie's mineographed songbook,
Maybe so. But I think that maybe Alan had something to do with
introducing Woody to the New York Left folk scene.
On a Slow Train Through California and
>invited him to the Grapes of Wrath Benefit which he organized where
>Guthrie met Seeger for the first time.
I question thiis, knowing Alan's influence. I bet Pete knew about
Woody before this..
>As for Geer introducing Guthrie to the Communist Party, there are a number
>of sources for this as well including the book quoted by somebody in this
>thread which noted that Geer introduced Guthrie to "left politics". To say
>that none of the folk singers of this period needed to be introduced to
>the Communist Party is a pretty simplistic approach to history.
No, the simplistic approach is to say categorically that these people
were not aware of the CP. This is to paint them as some kind of naive
people which they were not.
They
>didn't just stumble upon such radical concepts. Guthrie was actually quite
>uncomfortable with being a member of any organization and was slightly
>wary of the Party, although he liked a lot of the ideals, but Geer was a
>passionate defender and quite the proselytizer, by all accounts, and he
>recruited Woody to write a column for the Party newspaper the Daily
>Worker.
Where are your sources for this?
Geer's lover Harry Hay credited Geer for drilling left political
>ideas into him in the 30's, ideas which later proved crucial when Hay became a
>pioneer of the gay rights movement. It is an insult to Geer to downplay his
>politicization of Guthrie and thus ignore his contribution to American folk
>music.
Not at all. It's more insulting to insist that Woody was unaware of
the CP and had to be lead by the so-called "intelligentsia" into this
awareness. These folkies were highly enlightened as to the political
climate of the time and didn't have to be lead any;where. As to
Will's interest in the Party, at that time it was pretty much shared
by everyone around, Woody included. I think that everyone was
u;ncomfortable when the Party became doctrinaire, Will included.
>People seem to be reluctant today to dwell too much on the Communist Party
>and its influence on the folk music of this period, no doubt embarrassed
>by the passionate defense of Stalin which went along with Party
>affiliation.
The fact is that the American Left created the avid interest in folk
music that spawned the popular revival. As to the excesses of Stalin,
many didn't have a clue as to what he was about. They were embued
with idealism and didn't delve into the facts of Bolshevism.
But I believe it is important in looking at the evolution of
>American folk music to look at the Communist influence as well as the
>influence of red-baiting on folkies and their music (read: Burl Ives,
>among others) later on.
Sure. But to paint folkies as being doctrinaire and unquestioning in
their allegiance to the Party is to miss the point. Everyone was
questioning in those days. These men were not aparatchiks. They were
aware and intelligent political people.
>It is painful, for example, to listen to a bunch of Boy Scouts or
>Christian revivalists sitting around a campfire singing This Land is Your
>Land as if it was some kind of right wing patriotic folk song,
I'm glad that they at least have that much good taste. I don't find
it painful and I don't think Woody would have either. As to the
"right wing" slant, well they put that on anything they like.
>conveniently excising the verses which convey the unmistakable political
>leanings of Guthrie and give the song its soul.
What gives the song it's soul is the fact that it's a damn good song,
not some political tract.
Sorry to disagree with your points..
Frank Hamilton
Max Wallace
Frank Hamilton (ham...@mindspring.com) writes:
> ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Max Wallace) wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Not sure about his introducing anyone to the Communist Party. I don't
>>> think that any of the folk singers of that period needed to be
>>> introduced. They all knew what it was. Not sure that he introduced
>>> Pete to Woody. Where is the source for this? Alan would have
>>> probably introduced Woody to Pete and Will.
>
>>There are a number of sources for this. The one closest to hand is a book
>>called Folk Music: More Than a Song by Kristin Baggelaar and Donald
>>Milton (page 161), which says that Geer sent the young Pete Seeger a copy of
>>Guthrie's mineographed songbook,
>
> Maybe so. But I think that maybe Alan had something to do with
> introducing Woody to the New York Left folk scene.
>
>
Nobody disputes this, although it is clearly Will Geer who convinced Woody
to move to New York in the first place after Geer landed a part in
the Broadway play Tobacco Road. Certainly Lomax was well connected in New
York and introduced Woody to many people.
> On a Slow Train Through California
and >>invited him to the Grapes of Wrath Benefit which he organized where
>>Guthrie met Seeger for the first time.
>
> I question thiis, knowing Alan's influence. I bet Pete knew about
> Woody before this..
>
You asked for my source and I provided it. If it's not enough, here's two
more:
In the Encyclopedia of the American Left, under Pete Seeger's bio, comes
this passage:
"On March 3, 1940, a date folklorist Alan Lomax once said could be
celebrated as the beginning of modern folk music, Seeger met Woody Guthrie
at a "Grapes of Wrath" migrant-worker benefit concert."
In a study called The Folk Revival of the 1930s and 40s comes this passage:
"......The Grapes of Wrath Evening in Washington, D.C., a benefit concert
for California migrant workers. The concert was organized by
actor-folksinger Will Geer and was considered "one of the most significant
events of the nascent folk revival...Seeger and Guthrie met for the first
time later that night."
>
>>As for Geer introducing Guthrie to the Communist Party, there are a number
>>of sources for this as well including the book quoted by somebody in this
>>thread which noted that Geer introduced Guthrie to "left politics". To say
>>that none of the folk singers of this period needed to be introduced to
>>the Communist Party is a pretty simplistic approach to history.
>
> No, the simplistic approach is to say categorically that these people
> were not aware of the CP. This is to paint them as some kind of naive
> people which they were not.
>
Of course they were aware of the CP. Who said they weren't? Saying Geer
introduced Guthrie to the Party obviously doesn't imply that he first told
him that the Communist Party existed. It does mean that Geer passionately
argued the merits of Communism, pointed out that many of the Party's
ideals paralelled Guthries own and schooled him on the finer points of
Marxism.
> They didn't just stumble upon such radical concepts. Guthrie was
actually quite
>>uncomfortable with being a member of any organization and was slightly
>>wary of the Party, although he liked a lot of the ideals, but Geer was a
>>passionate defender and quite the proselytizer, by all accounts, and he
>>recruited Woody to write a column for the Party newspaper the Daily
>>Worker.
>
> Where are your sources for this?
>
The source for Geer's strong influence on Guthrie was an old Communist friend
of my grandfather who knew them both and was instrumental in giving Paul
Robeson a stage in Canada when he was blacklisted in the States. Among the
sources which document Guthrie's discomfort with full-fledged Communist
party membership is this passage from Woody's biography at the Woody
Guthrie Folk Festival site:
"The 1930s were period in US history when the polarization between the rich
and the poor was far more pronounced than usual.
It was also before labor unions had become an established, if not
entrenched, part of the American socio-political landscape. In many
people's minds, lines between the rich and the poor were very distinctly
drawn; Woody found that the Communist Party was on the same
side of the issues as he was, so he worked for them sometimes. His most
definitive comment on the whole situation was to say, "I ain't a
communist necessarily, but I been in the red all my life...He would later
play music at Communist Party gatherings and even write columns in
communist newspapers, but he always maintained that he was not a member of
any "earthly organization."
>
> Geer's lover Harry Hay credited Geer for drilling left political
>>ideas into him in the 30's, ideas which later proved crucial when Hay became a
>>pioneer of the gay rights movement. It is an insult to Geer to downplay his
>>politicization of Guthrie and thus ignore his contribution to American folk
>>music.
>
> Not at all. It's more insulting to insist that Woody was unaware of
> the CP and had to be lead by the so-called "intelligentsia" into this
> awareness. These folkies were highly enlightened as to the political
> climate of the time and didn't have to be lead any;where. As to
> Will's interest in the Party, at that time it was pretty much shared
> by everyone around, Woody included. I think that everyone was
> u;ncomfortable when the Party became doctrinaire, Will included.
>
Only an idiot would join an organization without bothering to explore what
it's about. And Woody was no idiot. It's perfectly reasonable to believe
that he and others didn't plunge headfirst into the Party without some
convincing from their friends, who might lend them books, take them to
meetings, etc. This doesn't translate into being "lead". Like many political
movements today, some people are more passionate about a cause than others,
some people try to proselytize their friends. The fact that Woody was
somewhat wary is to his credit.
Frank Hamilton
>Only an idiot would join an organization without bothering to explore what
>it's about. And Woody was no idiot. It's perfectly reasonable to believe
>that he and others didn't plunge headfirst into the Party without some
>convincing from their friends, who might lend them books, take them to
>meetings, etc. This doesn't translate into being "lead". Like many political
>movements today, some people are more passionate about a cause than others,
>some people try to proselytize their friends. The fact that Woody was
>somewhat wary is to his credit.
Well let's get off this flaming business about being "simplicistic". I
knew Will and Woody in California and tried to give you some idea of
how I saw them, Will in particular, since I knew him and he introduced
me to the Weavers. I don't want to argue with you about details. I
still question a lot of what has been put out by biographers because I
know that muuh of it can be inaccurate. There, BTW were a lot of
people who were involved in the CP who had never read the Manifesto,
or Das Kapital. There were a lot of people who really didn't have
much of an idea about the organization because at that time it was
going through a lot of changes. Which means there were in your
words, probably a lot of "idiots" in the CP.
But you asked if anyone knew anything about Will and I responded not
wanting to get into a labored discussion about it. I am not trying to
insult anyone by diminishing their political ardor, Will included. I
told you some of what I know about the Will Geer I knew and choose to
terminate my end of the discussion rather than argue over details.
Frank Hamilton
Mike Napolitano
>
> >Only an idiot would join an organization without bothering to explore what
> >it's about. And Woody was no idiot. It's perfectly reasonable to believe
> >that he and others didn't plunge headfirst into the Party without some
> >convincing from their friends, who might lend them books, take them to
> >meetings, etc. This doesn't translate into being "lead". Like many political
> >movements today, some people are more passionate about a cause than others,
> >some people try to proselytize their friends. The fact that Woody was
> >somewhat wary is to his credit.
>
> knew Will and Woody in California and tried to give you some idea of
> how I saw them, Will in particular, since I knew him and he introduced
> me to the Weavers. I don't want to argue with you about details. I
> still question a lot of what has been put out by biographers because I
> know that muuh of it can be inaccurate. There, BTW were a lot of
> people who were involved in the CP who had never read the Manifesto,
> or Das Kapital. There were a lot of people who really didn't have
> much of an idea about the organization because at that time it was
> going through a lot of changes. Which means there were in your
> words, probably a lot of "idiots" in the CP.
>
> But you asked if anyone knew anything about Will and I responded not
> wanting to get into a labored discussion about it. I am not trying to
> insult anyone by diminishing their political ardor, Will included. I
> told you some of what I know about the Will Geer I knew and choose to
> terminate my end of the discussion rather than argue over details.
>
> Frank Hamilton
Woody said it all when he gave this answer to a question that was
making the rounds during the McCarthy era: "I never went to a communist
party."
Mike N.
Joel Weber
> Impossible! It's like suggesting there are registered Democrats who have
> never read the Party's Agenda or voted without personally reading the
> entire platform. I just can't believe it!
=============
Respectfully disagree. Was there an abortion plank in the last
Republican platform? I wonder if anyone can remember. I'm lucky to get
through this newsgroup much less take the time to read my party's
platform. Hell, most Americans don't even know who their Congressman
or State Rep is. We're assuming a lot here. The CP movement in the
'30s attracted a lot of poor people who were struggling to survive.
Some of them, I'm sure were rural indigents who were barely literate
and maybe even illiterate. Along comes a labor organizer who offers
them a system that promises a job, a living wage and relief from
squalor, and it all sounds pretty good. I don't think a lot of these
people were saying: "Gee before I sign up can I read the Manifesto and
while you're at it how about a copy of Das Kapital."
It's pretty fair to assume that the CP movement wasn't just about a
whole bunch of intellectuals sitting around a table.
joel
(it's off topic but interesting)
Jeri Corlew
I have the first album, but none of the rest. Alan Arkin's definitely
on it. The cover notes say:
"Alan Arkin is an accomplished young man in his early twenties. He
plays the guitar and recorder and has worked as a television and stage
actor, delivery boy, dude ranch entertainer, pot washer, and baby
sitter."
I got this album in a second-hand store for $4, and it came with a
booklet of complete song texts *and* a a spring 1959 Electra catalog.
I love second-hand stores...
Jeri
--
Jeri Corlew
Remove "XYZ" to reply.
(please reply by e-mail. I read the group,
but my news server only gets about 15% of messages)
Eric Berge
In Article<35a5ee0a...@news.delanet.com>, <jeric...@delanet.com>
writes:
> On Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:36:06 GMT, ham...@mindspring.com (Frank
> Hamilton) wrote:
> >(Owl) wrote:
> >>rj...@aol.com (RJGra) wrote:
> >>>>Did you ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
> >>>I remember picking up an Alan Arkin folk album ("When Dalliance Was in
> >>>Flower, Volume 1") a long time ago in a cut out bin. Only listened to
> >>> it once and don't remember anything about it other than Alan was on
> >>> Volume 1 (with others), but not on Volume 2.
> >>IIRC those albums were mainly Ed McCurdy, though Alan Arkin played
> >>recorder and sometimes sang backup.
> >I don't remember Alan being on that album but maybe he was. Most of
> >the backup was done by musician/folksinger extroardinaire Erik
> >Darling.
>
> I have the first album, but none of the rest. Alan Arkin's definitely
> on it. The cover notes say:
>
> "Alan Arkin is an accomplished young man in his early twenties. He
> plays the guitar and recorder and has worked as a television and stage
> actor, delivery boy, dude ranch entertainer, pot washer, and baby
> sitter."
I have all three.
Vol I - Ed McCurdy, vocals
Erik Darling, banjo & guitar
Alan Arkin, recorder
Vol II - Ed McCurdy, vocals
Robert Abramson, harpsichord
LaNoue Davenport, recorders
William Faier, guitar and banjo
Erik Darling, solo banjo
Vol III - Ed McCurdy, vocals and guitar
Erik Darling, banjo and additional guitar.
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
Brett Weiss
--
Brett
Joel Weber wrote in message <6o006n$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Gerry Myerson
(Abby Sale) wrote:
-> On Mon, 06 Jul 1998 17:27:30 GMT, ham...@mindspring.com (Frank Hamilton)
-> wrote:
->
-> >There, BTW were a lot of people who were involved in the CP who had never
-> >read the Manifesto, or Das Kapital.
->
-> Impossible! It's like suggesting there are registered Democrats who have
-> never read the Party's Agenda or voted without personally reading the
-> entire platform. I just can't believe it!
Or like suggesting there are people who post to rec.music.folk
who have never read the charter. Couldn't happen!
GM
Jim Kaplan
>
>In Article<35a5ee0a...@news.delanet.com>, <jeric...@delanet.com>
>writes:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:36:06 GMT, ham...@mindspring.com (Frank
>> Hamilton) wrote:
>
>> >(Owl) wrote:
>
>> >>rj...@aol.com (RJGra) wrote:
>
>> >>>>Did you ever hear Alan Arkin when he was a folksinger?
I have a Vanguard 2Fer "The Best of the Baby Sitters" which
has Alan Arkin, Jeremy Arkin, Lee Hays and Doris Kaplan.
Issued in 1975, but dating to the 50s, based on the cover
pictures. Its a childrens album.
(BTW-Doris Kaplan is my stepmother - I got the album as a gift!)
Any typos are just that. I'm an expert speller.
Jim Kaplan
Joel Weber
>
> Joel...Abby was being facetious.
>
> --
> Brett
>
Yeah,actually that dawned on me after I had responded and posted and
read the original message. That, of course is always one of the
drawbacks of Usenet--those subtle voice inflections or facial
expressions aren't there. Anyway it can't hurt to remind people how
politically naive we really are. Thanks Brett.
joel
Brett Weiss
--
Brett
Joel Weber wrote in message <6o2h0h$l...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...