What is 'folk' music?
Joel Goodman@superfi
Sorry to barge in on your group, however I have a question.
As a student I have been asked to write an essay which examines the concept
of "authenticity" in music. I have to ask you as folk musicians/followers,
what constitutes a "folk" song?
Is it in the lyrics or meaning of the song? Is the choice of instrument more
important? Can a folk song be composed using a computer (or even by a
computer?) Can electricity be used in the performance of a piece of folk
music?
As I understand it, folk music must be true to a heritage, but does that
limit innovation?
I ask that last question with specific reference to the work of musicians
such as Bob Dylan and the reactions he received when he chose to use
electricity in his performances.
Many thanks for your opinions!
Joel Goodman
Joel.G...@dial.pipex.com
Bruce Olson
'folk' has been so drastically abused that it's now rather meaningless,
so I use 'traditional' to refer to real folk songs or tunes. That's the
key word in the broadside ballad index on my website to find which ones
which were sung as traditional (formerly 'folk') songs.
Bruce Olson
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
Paul Burke
Can a folk song be composed using a computer (or even by a
> computer?) Can electricity be used in the performance of a piece of folk
> music?
> As I understand it, folk music must be true to a heritage, but does that
> limit innovation?
This isn't quite the usual horse question, so perhaps it deserves an
answer. Try looking at folk music as a process rather than a set body of
music. All music has to be "composed" in some fashion, but folk music is
a process whereby the composition is afterwards subject to a process of
change. Use natural selection as a model- if the original design can
survive at all, the folk process thereafter introduces changes which
adapt the music to the community using it. Read the first few chapters
of A.L.Lloyd's 'Folk Song in England' (right title?) and perhaps Daniel
C. Dennett and others on memes.
Paul Burke
Stephen Suffet
>
>
> This isn't quite the usual horse question, so perhaps it deserves an
> answer. Try looking at folk music as a process rather than a set
> body of music. All music has to be "composed" in some fashion, but
> folk music is a process whereby the composition is afterwards
> subject to a process of change. Use natural selection as a model -
> if the original design can survive at all, the folk process
> thereafter introduces changes which adapt the music to the community
> using it.
and Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>
> 'folk' has been so drastically abused that it's now rather
> meaningless, so I use 'traditional' to refer to real folk songs or
> tunes. That's the key word in the broadside ballad index on my
> website to find which ones which were sung as traditional (formerly
> 'folk') songs.
>
Greetings:
I like Paul's analogy to natural selection. Has anyone told this
to Stephen Jay Gould? So far he's applied this model to the evolution
of Mickey Mouse, the incredible shrinking candy bar, the decline of
the .400 hitter, and triumph of the internal combustion engine. Maybe
one of his future articles will examine what we call the folk process.
In fact, the folk process fits the Gouldian paradigm of punctuated
equilibrium: long periods of slow Darwinian evolution punctuated by
occasional brief periods of catalysmic change.
Bruce's distinction between "folk" and "traditional" reminds me
that one of my favorite traditional singers once said that I was a
"real folk singer." By that he meant that I took whatever song that
struck my fancy from any source whatsoever, and I performed it in any
manner I was capable of. So what if I forgot most of the words or I
remembered them wrong; I just made up my own! Couldn't handle the
tune? No big deal: I just changed it to fit my own vocal range! Had no
idea what the right chords were? I played any that fit as long as they
harmonized with the melody! No sense of 12/8 or some other weird time?
Well, I could put almost any song into either 4/4 or 3/4!
By the way, my traditionalist friend did not intend the term "real
folk singer" to be a compliment. However, I have made it one. Both of
us (Mr. Trad and yours truly here) would have called Woody Guthrie a
"real folk singer" -- and that's good enough for me!
Regards,
Steve
Ian Anderson
> What is 'folk' music?
The following letter which appeared in our pages several years ago may or may not
answer your question. Of course, I wouldn't like to guarantee that the writer was
serious (or not a horse):
------
After being involved in a radio show and a festival for a few years, I’ve
accumulated enough research to offer the following.
North American singer/songwriter definition: Folk is anything that includes,
somewhere in the mix, however far buried beneath the synth, the too-loud snare drum
and the four-piece horn section, an acoustic guitar. Electric guitar is OK if played
by a singer/songwriter who might at one point have owned an acoustic guitar. If said
singer/songwriter never owned an acoustic guitar then it still counts as long as
they are trying to sound like Joni Mitchell (which covers 90 percent of all U.S.A.
female examples) or Bob Dylan (likewise, male), or write songs containing the word
“dolphin”. If you don’t believe that this is true then try following any of the
U.S.-based ‘folk’ e-mail lists on any random day.
Alternative North American definition, folk-stroke-Celtic: Anything from anywhere in
the British Isles and/or Ireland and or anywhere else as long as there’s a cover of
She Moved Through The Fair on the CD and a minimum quotient of whooshy Enya-noises.
Also, anything with a harp, particularly if played by Loreena McKennitt or anybody
else who has received more than the U.N.-recommended maximum exposure to new-age
crystal shops.
Australian/U.K. folk club definition: A folk song is any song of which more than
twenty percent of the words have been forgotten during the course of any given
performance. Any song containing the words shearer, drover, billy or tea (Australia)
or any song beginning with two lines of meteorology (England) and/or taking place in
the month of May, and/or having protagonists named Nancy and/or Willy making
incomprehensible bargains with bent jewellery or murdering one another over verbal
pre-nuptual agreements.
Universal no-exception totally watertight force-of-law definition: anything,
absolutely anything, with a melodeon, is now and ever more shall be folk. This used
to be true for banjos as well until the Flecktones came along, and it’s almost
entirely true for bouzoukis, citterns and their diverse bastard offspring.
Concertinas are allowed to pretend not to be folk, but piano accordeons are banned
altogether unless played by Phil Cunningham, Karen Tweed or Astor Piazzolla. Fiddles
turn into violins and stop being folk when played up at the dusty end, unless they
are played in funny tunings in which case they are always folk, and even more so if
they’ve got extra strings in funny places or are played by Chipolatas with kebab
sticks. Any of the above, or anything else, is automatically folk when played by
personages in flat hats or other ethnic costumes or by blokes wearing dresses.
Getting serious now for a minute, what folk really is, of course, is music with its
roots in the past but its branches wherever they choose to grow. And, getting even
more serious now, words do matter. The any-singer-songwriter-with-an-acoustic-guitar
definition has made a complete nonsense of the term ‘folk’, and it’s time we
rehabilitated it.
Steve Barnes, Fairbridge Festival, Fremantle, Western Australia
--
Ian Anderson
fRoots magazine
fro...@froots.demon.co.uk
http://www.froots.demon.co.uk/
net radio at http://wen.com/radio
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Abby Sale
>'folk' has been so drastically abused that it's now rather meaningless,
>so I use 'traditional' to refer to real folk songs or tunes. That's the
>key word in the broadside ballad index on my website to find which ones
>which were sung as traditional (formerly 'folk') songs.
Of course, I agree with this. But how to treat a song, recently composed
by a source singer who's been urbanized 50 years (eg, Jean Ritchie) and
taught to another source singer of a different tradition (eg, Jeanie
Robertson) which then goes into that singer's repertoire and on her death
remains a part of the singing wealth of the tribe (eg the Stewarts of
Blair.)
"What is Folk Music," indeed!
I strictly intend to remain snobbish, traditionalist, purist & academic
about these things. But sometimes I just can't help a-wondering...
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Boycott South Carolina!
http://www.naacp.org/communications/press_releases/SCEconomic2.asp
Joe Kesselman
> of "authenticity" in music.
Good luck. Hit the archives of this newsgroup and you'll discover that
this is a completely unresolved question likely to cause flamewars.
There are about fifteen different definitions with disjoint meanings.
There's the ethnologist's definition, which is that it is the endemic
music of a population under study.
There's the musicologist's definition, which is that it is the
_traditional_ music of a population under study.
There's the marketing definition, which is roughly equivalent to
"singer-songwriter with at least vaguely traditional sensibilities".
And so on. And on. And on.
All of these are legitimate groupings. All are common usages of the
word. So fifteen disjoint answers exist to your questions, all correct
and all wrong, depending on who you ask and in what context.
Personally, I recommend that you either resign yourself to doing a LOT
of research to develop a sense of how these all interact -- and I do
mean doing your own research, rather than counting on folks here to
write essays for you -- or go back and demand a new topic. This is a
question upon which one could write a masters' thesis.
> what constitutes a "folk" song?
It Depends on which definition of "folk" you're using.
> Is the choice of instrument more important?
Personal opinion: Since you specifically asked about _song_, my answer
is no. If you had asked about folk music more generally, the answer
would be "It Depends".
> Can a folk song be composed using a computer (or even by a
> computer?)
It Depends. Some of the stricter musicologists would argue that if you
know when and where a song was composed, it's unlikely to be folk at all
and the question can't arise. Other definitions would argue that how it
was composed is absolutely critical... or absolutely irrelevant.
> Can electricity be used in the performance of a piece of folk
> music?
It Depends. Personally, I distinguish between the composition and the
arrangement, and when you talk about performance you've got both. On the
other hand, I use definitions which accept that there is such a thing as
modern folk, and the "period instruments" of today do include electric
and electronic instruments.
> As I understand it, folk music must be true to a heritage
It Depends. That's the musicologist end of the spectrum. At the
ethnologist end, the definition depends much more on how the music is
passed around today than on what its background is; an ethnologist would
consider some Beatles tunes to have become part of today's unwritten
culture and hence "folk".
> but does that limit innovation?
It Depends. If your definition of folk is that it hews close to a
tradition -- or that it's been around long enough that it has become
part of the tradition -- than anything innovative isn't folk until long
after the innovation occurred. With other definitions, you get very
different answers.
> I ask that last question with specific reference to the work of musicians
> such as Bob Dylan and the reactions he received when he chose to use
> electricity in his performances.
It Depends. By some definitions, Dylan's own material wasn't folk to
begin with, simply because it was newly composed and hence not part of
an established tradition... though it may be folk now, since it has
become part of _our_ tradition. By others, which put the emphasis on
traditional arrangement rather than traditional material, the shift in
instrumentation marked the divergence. By others, the change in
instrumentation per se wasn't relevant to this question.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
Appearing January 13 at Walkabout: The Nields
February 10: Pete Seeger and Tao Rodrigues -- order in advance!
http://www.WalkaboutClearwater.org/coffeehouse.html
Steve & Caren Comeau
academic definition of folk music:
"Folk music is music with strong regional ties or a racial/ethnic identity
and direct links with its past."
Lornell goes on to describe six general characteristics of folk music:
1. It is music that varies greatly over space but little over time.
2. Folk music emanates from a specific, identifiable community, such as coal
miners, Louisiana Cajuns, or Native Americans.
3. The authorship or origins of folk songs and tunes are generally unknown.
4. Folk songs are usually disseminated by work of mouth, aurally, or through
informal apprenticeships within a community.
5. Folk music is most often performed by nonprofessionals.
6. Short forms and predictable patterns are fundamental to folk music.
But as others have already posted, this topic has been, and probably will
continue to be, hotly debated. I'd pick a perspective and work your
research from there.
All the best,
Steve
Joel Goodman@superfi wrote in message <932hra$ruu$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
Joel Goodman@superfi
Without wanting anyone to accuse my of stirring things up, do you wonder
whether a "snobbish, traditionalist, purist & academic" stance might serve
to exclude some from sharing in the diversity of folk music?
Just curious!
Joel.
Abby Sale <NO-SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote in message
news:esib5tgghdr52vaeg...@4ax.com...
Joel Goodman@superfi
was not my intention to stir things up and I am happy you didn't take it
that way...
The process of natural selection would imply that any successful derivation
of a music's heritage can qualify as folk. Just as the Animals performance
of "House of the Rising Sun" (for example) - despite it being an
unaccredited Negro spiritual - can qualify so can any other derivation. This
would seem to be a pleasing definition in that it doesn't exclude the
performer or the composer and does allow for the process of innovation and
evolution.
Thanks again,
Joel.
Paul Burke <pa...@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:3A558B35...@scazon.com...
Joel Goodman@superfi
I certainly never asked the members of this group to "write the essay" for
me! My intention was merely to gather some examples of what folk music
followers perception of "authenticity" is.
It is clear that there are many interpretations - art seems to have that
effect(!) - and I am very grateful to you for taking the time to provide me
with some of the arguments, you have made it clear that you feel personal
interpretation forbids any form of generalisation or conclusions to be
drawn. This is cool - I am not ambitious or arrogant enough to attempt to
come up with the solution to "Life, the Universe and Everything", and I am
glad that the question has stimulated some heart-felt debate. I hope to
convey the lack of solution in my essay!
Yours,
Joel.
Joe Kesselman <kes...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3A555287...@attglobal.net...
Joel Goodman@superfi
Would it be fair to say then that if the performance of a piece is true to
the performer you would describe it as "authentic folk"?
Joel.
Stephen Suffet <Suf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3A55B5...@worldnet.att.net...
Martin Banks
wrote:
> Thanks for your honest answer.
> Without wanting anyone to accuse my of stirring things
> up, do you wonder
> whether a "snobbish, traditionalist, purist & academic"
> stance might serve
> to exclude some from sharing in the diversity of folk
> music?
> Just curious!
>
Not forgetting, of course, that one person's `personal choice and interest'
is another person's `snobbish, traditionalist, purist & academic stance'. But
otherwise, you are right, it will stop some from sharing. Others will have
tasted of alternative fruits, and found them not to their taste.
Peter Wilton
<ts...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>Thanks for your honest answer.
>Without wanting anyone to accuse my of stirring things up, do you wonder
>whether a "snobbish, traditionalist, purist & academic" stance might serve
>to exclude some from sharing in the diversity of folk music?
But if there's no such thing as folk music, then that couldn't possibly
happen, could it? ;-)
--
Peter Wilton
The Gregorian Association Web Page:
http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk
george...@my-deja.com
"Joel Goodman@superfi" <ts...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your honest answer.
> Without wanting anyone to accuse my of stirring things up, do
> you wonder whether a "snobbish, traditionalist, purist & academic"
> stance might serve to exclude some from sharing in the diversity of
> folk music?
No, in short because the "what is folk music" question has very little
to do with what people perform. Most folk performers (including many
but possibly not all "traditional" ones) perform a repetoire which
includes folk (as in traditional, and I accept Pete Wilton's points
about the impossiblity of defining that term) and non-folk material.
This is entirely healthy, natural and inclusive.
However folk music is well worthy of study, in both musical and
sociological terms. And in that context the distinctions (ok, I'll
align myself with Abby's "snobbish, traditionalist, purist & academic"
claim, if he'll forgive me) IS important.
G.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Daniel R. Reitman
<fro...@froots.off.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The following letter which appeared in our pages several years ago may or may not
>answer your question. Of course, I wouldn't like to guarantee that the writer was
>serious (or not a horse):
>------
>After being involved in a radio show and a festival for a few years, I’ve
>accumulated enough research to offer the following.
>North American singer/songwriter definition: Folk is anything that includes,
>somewhere in the mix, however far buried beneath the synth, the too-loud snare drum
>and the four-piece horn section, an acoustic guitar. Electric guitar is OK if played
>by a singer/songwriter who might at one point have owned an acoustic guitar. If said
>singer/songwriter never owned an acoustic guitar then it still counts as long as
>they are trying to sound like Joni Mitchell (which covers 90 percent of all U.S.A.
>female examples) or Bob Dylan (likewise, male), or write songs containing the word
>“dolphin”. If you don’t believe that this is true then try following any of the
>U.S.-based ‘folk’ e-mail lists on any random day.
>. . . .
Leslie Fish's opinion on the subject is that any instrument that can
be picked up and carried out the back door when the police break down
the front door is a folk instrument. :-)
Feel free to take it from there.
Dan, ad nauseam
Joel Goodman@superfi
I have now complete the essay, and although it isn't my finest work (!) your
help has been invaluable.
Thanks again!
Joel.
Steve & Caren Comeau <notco...@home.com> wrote in message
news:HJK56.109788$w35.18...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
Maynard R. Johnson
>
> Thank you all for your advice and support.
> I have now complete the essay, and although it isn't my finest work (!) your
> help has been invaluable.
> Thanks again!
Joel,
You haven't completed the essay until you have a visual representation
of the "folk process".
See http://members.aol.com/kitchiegal/folk-process.html
I was always partial to the theory that it ain't really traditional or
folk if it is still under copyright control.
But then there is the positivistic view that "folk music" is whatever is
in the "folk" bins at the music store.
--
Maynard Johnson
Kitchen Musician WWW Site
http://members.aol.com/kitchiegal/
Jink and Diddle School of Scottish Fiddle
http://members.aol.com/kitchenboy/jink/jink.html/
Abby Sale
<kitch...@fuse.net> wrote:
>I was always partial to the theory that it ain't really traditional or
>folk if it is still under copyright control.
>
A wunnerful thing about the stuff is that even a simple, logical notion
like that don't work. At least not in _all_ cases.
"Happy Birthday To You" composer Mildred J Hill b6/27/1859 (d1916; words by
her sister, Patty Hill Smith in 1924) © Summy-Birchard, Inc. (c/o
Warner/Chappell Music, Inc.), Licensed by ASCAP
And what could be more traditional, in all senses, than that?
>But then there is the positivistic view that "folk music" is whatever is
>in the "folk" bins at the music store.
Our local record stores don't _have_ a folk music bin. Stuff you actually
thought might be such wind up in Country Music or Rock.
It's hopeless unless you're teaching the class yourself.
Maynard R. Johnson
>
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:32:30 -0500, "Maynard R. Johnson"
> <kitch...@fuse.net> wrote:
>
> >I was always partial to the theory that it ain't really traditional or
> >folk if it is still under copyright control.
> >
> A wunnerful thing about the stuff is that even a simple, logical notion
> like that don't work. At least not in _all_ cases.
>
> "Happy Birthday To You" composer Mildred J Hill b6/27/1859 (d1916; words by
> her sister, Patty Hill Smith in 1924) © Summy-Birchard, Inc. (c/o
> Warner/Chappell Music, Inc.), Licensed by ASCAP
>
> And what could be more traditional, in all senses, than that?
>
gathered at least five times to sing something "traditional" for a
birthday....but it wasn't "Happy Birthday to You", since they could be
sued.
If folks can't sing it freely, IMHO, it ain't really "folk". In this
case, it's Warner.
Ken Bradburn
SPAM-...@ft.newyorklife.com> writes
> I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
> Boycott South Carolina!
I don't look at this ng so often. I've kind of strayed in from UK music
folk. I don't understand the above boycott. Would you mind explaining
for me. It may be as well by email if everyone else here already knows.
Best wishes
Ken Bradburn
Abby Sale
wrote:
>> Boycott South Carolina!
>I don't look at this ng so often. I've kind of strayed in from UK music
>folk. I don't understand the above boycott. Would you mind explaining
See, that's what happens when you stray away from your homegrounds & invade
another country? You find something curious - mabe even interesting. :-)
It's an international boycott (not my own creation) in response to a
callous outrage. Apparently South Carolinians have a need to express pride
of culture but can't find anything to be proud of in the most recent 150
years. Their celebration centers on the symbols of intolerance, hypocracy,
slavery and indentured servatude. The boycott has been partially
successful in getting the Confederate battle flag "removed from a position
of sovereignty since it was first flown atop the statehouse in 1962."
Full details are at the NAACP URL below.
(North Carolina's fine though & has lots of folk music - Peggy Seeger even
lives there & you know she wouldn't live anywhere nasty - you shouldn't get
them mixed up.)
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Boycott South Carolina!
http://www.naacp.org/communications/press_releases/SCEconomic2.asp
Ken Bradburn
I was at Celtic Connections in Glasgow last weekend and happened to
stray into another countries Modern Art Gallery. There was a large
painting of very muscular and aggresive looking men with bull terrier
heads. It was called "Patriots". Perhaps it has something to say in
South Carolina too.
Best Wishes
Ken
In article <um5r6tgdu189qnf2o...@4ax.com>, Abby Sale
<NO-SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> writes
--
Ken Bradburn
bogus address
> I was at Celtic Connections in Glasgow last weekend and happened to
> stray into another countries Modern Art Gallery. There was a large
> painting of very muscular and aggresive looking men with bull terrier
> heads. It was called "Patriots". Perhaps it has something to say in
> South Carolina too.
The artist was Peter Howson, who had an ego as big as his drink
problem before his visit to Kosovo as "offical war artist". The
experience didn't do a lot to diminish either.
He's good at a limited range of things, but there's only so much
you can say through images of psychopathic thugs.
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