Why aren't more folk music fans country fans?
Anne Nugent
The Black Hat wrote:
>
> Now why did I write this? I'm the person who has this folkie friend
> who USED to be a Mary Chapin fan until she went country (I love her) and
> also bailed out on Iris DeMent (I don't like her) when she did the
> same. <BIG OL' SNIP>
> I guess the folkies may want their music with not so much production
> or insturmentation, but a lot of 'folk' artists will have a bass and
> drums and sometimes synthesizers accompaning them, so whats' going on
> here? I'd appreciate any thoughts from anybody here. There are a lot of
> country artists I don't care for, so I'm not too loyal on any style.
Gee Bob, that's an interesting question. I, for one, love Folk and
can't stand Country. I always thought it was because of the 'country
twang', but you're right, a lot of Folk has a twang to it, as well. It
could be because of an in-born, urban stereotype in me that may view
Country as 'hick' music. Also, the styles are very different, or they
would be placed in the same bin at the record store (they sometimes
*still* are). Country themes, it seems to me, deal with the mundane, in
general. "My baby left me. My mule got lame. Lost my money in a poker
game.", to quote George Thorogood. Pure Folk, at it's heart, is about
activism. Something's not right, let's change it. "I Ain't A-marchin'
Anymore", "This Land is Your Land", ETC... Seems to me, that's the
fundamental difference.
Anne Nugent
--
anug...@ix.netcom.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1293/annie.html
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The Black Hat
First, I'm happy to say that Y-107.1 from Briarcliff Manor, NY (once
home to Howard Stern in the late 70's, no shit!) comes in reasonably
well in my big stereo rig in Northeast Morris- NW Passaic County, NJ. I
just heard about it in this NG so I haven't tried it in my truck since I
haven't felt well this weekend and stayed home. Thanx gang!
Now why did I write this? I'm the person who has this folkie friend
who USED to be a Mary Chapin fan until she went country (I love her) and
also bailed out on Iris DeMent (I don't like her) when she did the
same. I did give away the Iris CD to another folkie friend (we both
also love the blues and big-band swing) who is an Iris fan. She liked
the CD. If you throw in Allison Krause, kd lang and Suzy Boguss, it
seems to be some overlap between both genres, which really floors me.
It seems that you mention a country artist or a folk-country artist to
some folkie (usually female) in Metro NYC-NJ her or his eyes rol over
and you hear a loud EWWWWWWWWWW! from that person.
I guess the folkies may want their music with not so much production
or insturmentation, but a lot of 'folk' artists will have a bass and
drums and sometimes synthesizers accompaning them, so whats' going on
here? I'd appreciate any thoughts from anybody here. There are a lot of
country artists I don't care for, so I'm not too loyal on any style.
Thanx in advance, Bob in the Jersey hills
x
In <E2492...@nonexistent.com> The Black Hat <blac...@nji.com>
writes:
Bob in the Jersey hills
Today's country music turns most women off, particularly younger women
(under 35) and urban-suburban women. They see it as shallow, sexist and
racist. The cowboy is out as a turn-on sex symbol for women, and there
are no women in country who are seen as being progressive. There is
nothing most women find challenging or inspiring in the lyrics or
melodies of today's country music. It was just 3-4 years ago that Suzy
Bogguss put out "Something Up My Sleeve" and Emylou Harris put out
"Cowgirl's Prayer." Those were women's albums, but you will not soon
see that kind of funky and challenging music from women again in
mainstream country music. Suzy has been banned, and Emylou has moved on
and won't return to country.
Three years ago, Mary Chapin was the only performer in pop music who
was being played simultaneously on country, public radio, adult
contemporary and even some rock stations. Her enormous popularity
defied categorization. Now, she is just another struggling woman in
country music. Mary Chapin should go down as one of the all-time
mismanaged careers. She could have been a real leader for all women in
country.
Stella
JAKa...@nlnex.com
The Black Hat <blac...@nji.com> wrote:
>First, I'm happy to say that Y-107.1 from Briarcliff Manor, NY (once
>home to Howard Stern in the late 70's, no shit!) comes in reasonably
>well in my big stereo rig in Northeast Morris- NW Passaic County, NJ. I
>just heard about it in this NG so I haven't tried it in my truck since I
>haven't felt well this weekend and stayed home. Thanx gang!
> Now why did I write this? I'm the person who has this folkie friend
>who USED to be a Mary Chapin fan until she went country (I love her) and
>also bailed out on Iris DeMent (I don't like her) when she did the
>same. I did give away the Iris CD to another folkie friend (we both
>also love the blues and big-band swing) who is an Iris fan. She liked
>the CD. If you throw in Allison Krause, kd lang and Suzy Boguss, it
>seems to be some overlap between both genres, which really floors me.
>It seems that you mention a country artist or a folk-country artist to
>some folkie (usually female) in Metro NYC-NJ her or his eyes rol over
>and you hear a loud EWWWWWWWWWW! from that person.
> I guess the folkies may want their music with not so much production
>or insturmentation, but a lot of 'folk' artists will have a bass and
>drums and sometimes synthesizers accompaning them, so whats' going on
>here? I'd appreciate any thoughts from anybody here. There are a lot of
>country artists I don't care for, so I'm not too loyal on any style.
> Thanx in advance, Bob in the Jersey hills
I don't listen to much of what gets played on the country stations
around here (there are at least 4 in Chicago & suburbs and they all
play the same music). But I have tried ands most of what I hear,
especially from the male singers sounds very similar and I don
t much care for it. Most of todays country does seem overproduced
and I suppose that is part of why I don't like it. I AM an Iris
Dement fan, but find her latest CD much less satisfying since her
voice is buried in the instrumentation and accompanying vocals. I've
never heard her on a country station and I think she's aiming to get
more country airplay with her new style. I am also a big MCC fan,
though I think her latest CD will have to grow on me...after two
listens I'm not overwhelmed. The style (is it honky tonk?) is not my
favorite by a long shot. I don't think she ever though of herself as
anything but country. In any case...you don't get a lot of airplay on
commercial radio billing yourself as a folk singer these days.
In the rather distant past 10-30 years ago, there are number of
country singers I have enjoyed very much...Don WIlliams, Merle
Haggard, Johnny Cash (who's apparently now "alternative" according to
a review I just read), Tom T Hall, The Oak Ridge Boys, Statler
Brothers, Gatlin Brothers, Alabama, Emmy Lou Harris, Juice Newton,
DOlly Parton, Gail Davies and many more. They're a pretty diverse
lot so its hard to say why I liked all of them but to me they were
different than today's country pop music.
Jim
Jim Gilliland
In <E2492...@nonexistent.com>, The Black Hat <blac...@nji.com> writes:
>....seems to be some overlap between both genres....
> I guess the folkies may want their music with not so much production
>or insturmentation, but a lot of 'folk' artists will have a bass and
>drums and sometimes synthesizers accompaning them, so whats' going on
>here?
Most of the so-called country music that's made in Nashville these days
has one focus and one focus only - making a bunch of money for those
who produce it. The songs are written by songwriters who spend a
standard eight-hour day trying to write hit songs, and produced by
singers, arrangers, producers, musicians, etc., who have exactly the
same goal. Under these circumstances, it is very difficult to produce
music with any substance - most of it is pure fluff, with no subtlety
or intelligence.
Most of what we generally refer to as "folk music" has a very different
nature. It is written and produced from the heart. Certainly there is
a hope on the part of the producers to make a living from it, but that
isn't the principal driving force.
You're right that there is an overlap. Mary Chapin Carpenter is an
excellent example of that. And there are Nashvillle songwriters who
are quite capable of turning out quality material - even though
they're writing songs as a nine-to-five job (Pat Alger comes to
mind). But they tend to be the exception that proves the rule <g>.
Jimmie Wilson, WRUW, Cleveland
PS - You may want to note that the music that is generally refered
to as "Country" on commercial radio today has remarkably little to
do with country music as we've known it in its earlier years. Instead,
it's a pop/rock mixture that has adopted (preempted?) the country
label mostly to set it apart from the harder rock that permeates
the rock airways.
If you want to hear real country music, you'll probably have to get
away from the commercial stations. You can turn to country music's
history - Jimmie Rodgers, the Carter Family, Roy Acuff, Bob Wills,
Hank Williams, etc., or you can look to the many excellent musicians
who are making real country music today. Most of them come from
the world of bluegrass and folk music and generally won't be found
on commercial radio - Robin and Linda Williams, Iris DeMent, Tim
O'Brien, Laurie Lewis, Dry Branch Fire Squad, Doc Watson, Sam Bush,
Riders In The Sky, etc.
Enjoy.
x
In <58g6p9$j...@colossus.holonet.net> JAKa...@nlnex.com writes:
>I don't listen to much of what gets played on the country stations
>around here (there are at least 4 in Chicago & suburbs and they all
>play the same music). But I have tried ands most of what I hear,
>especially from the male singers sounds very similar and I don
>t much care for it. Most of todays country does seem overproduced
>and I suppose that is part of why I don't like it. I AM an Iris
>Dement fan, but find her latest CD much less satisfying since her
>voice is buried in the instrumentation and accompanying vocals. I've
>never heard her on a country station and I think she's aiming to get
>more country airplay with her new style.
>
>Jim
I don't think Iris' voice is buried in the instrumentation at all, Jim.
The producer, Randy Scruggs, has changed Iris' voice, though. Her voice
no longer flows gracefully from note to note. Randy has beefed up the
percussion and Iris sings in a sharply enunciated, clipped style that
accentuates the drama and uniqueness of her voice. It has a lot in
common with hip-hop music, especially when you consider that Iris is
singing about some of the same social wrongs that hip-hop artists do,
with the same layer of irony. Randy has turned Iris into the first
female country rapper. It's innovative and very stylish, considering
that she still sounds quite country.
Country music needs more innovators like Iris and Randy. It needs more
music that is true to country roots but sounds modern and different
from some ol' Nashville shit. As far as pandering to Nashville, Iris
will probably never get played on country music radio because of one
song on that album alone, "Letter to Mom." That's way outside the
bounds.
Stella
Ted Samsel
Because you weren't brought up raht!
(I been playin' folk, country, blues, rock etc since 1962...)
te...@infi.net
"I only use my gun whenever kindness fails"
Robert Earl Keen
James Mark Manheim
Just a thought, but if Ambrose Bierce were writing his "Devil's
Dictionary" today, he might have defined folk music as a sophisticated
form of music cultivated primarily by highly literate urban elites.
Just another thought: artists going all the way back to Buffy Sainte-Marie
and (occasionally, when he felt like it) Bob Dylan have tried to bring
these forms together, since they have so much to offer each other. Surely
there have been times when Nashville's money-driven movers and shakers
have turned the cold shoulder to the attempt. But I think the contempt
toward country music fans that so many in the folk community hold (and
that you'll find amply demonstrated even here from time to time) has more
to do with it.
Tex
The Black Hat (blac...@nji.com) wrote:
: I guess the folkies may want their music with not so much production
: or insturmentation, but a lot of 'folk' artists will have a bass and
: drums and sometimes synthesizers accompaning them, so whats' going on
: here? I'd appreciate any thoughts from anybody here. There are a lot of
: country artists I don't care for, so I'm not too loyal on any style.
: Thanx in advance, Bob in the Jersey hills
--
mar...@pop.spicerack.ibm.com
I can't really answer the question because I like BOTH a great deal. I am a
die-hard folk fan (my earliest memory is a Peter Paul & Mary concert when I
was 3 years old)...and I also listen to country (viva 107.1!!)
I think some people are more "purest" in their sounds...me, I just like what I
like.
In Article<32AAFB...@ix.netcom.com>, <anug...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Path:
>
> The Black Hat wrote:
> >
> > Now why did I write this? I'm the person who has this folkie friend
> > who USED to be a Mary Chapin fan until she went country (I love her) and
> > also bailed out on Iris DeMent (I don't like her) when she did the
> > same. <BIG OL' SNIP>
> > I guess the folkies may want their music with not so much production
> > or insturmentation, but a lot of 'folk' artists will have a bass and
> > drums and sometimes synthesizers accompaning them, so whats' going on
> > here? I'd appreciate any thoughts from anybody here. There are a lot of
> > country artists I don't care for, so I'm not too loyal on any style.
>
Keith Dunnigan
JAKa...@nlnex.com wrote:
: In the rather distant past 10-30 years ago, there are number of
: country singers I have enjoyed very much...Don WIlliams, Merle
: Haggard, Johnny Cash (who's apparently now "alternative" according to
: a review I just read), Tom T Hall, The Oak Ridge Boys, Statler
: Brothers, Gatlin Brothers, Alabama, Emmy Lou Harris, Juice Newton,
: DOlly Parton, Gail Davies and many more. They're a pretty diverse
: lot so its hard to say why I liked all of them but to me they were
: different than today's country pop music.
I couldn't say it any better than Jim, or list a better example of good
country musicians. One could say similar things about pop stations then.
In fact many folk artists crossed over into both markets, for example John
Denver was named the country music entertainer of the year one year.
Likewise Jim Croce, Harry Chapin and Gorden Lightfoot were scoring hits on
the pop and country charts without totally leaving their folk roots. Dan
Fogelberg and James Taylor were leaving their rock audiences and recording
good folk songs as well. Believe it or not, Much of Billy Joels early
material (many of these recorded on "Songs in the Attic") reeked of folk
before his career took a decidedly rock twist.
Keith Dunnigan
Keith Dunnigan
Jim Gilliland <rri...@ibm.net> wrote:
: Most of the so-called country music that's made in Nashville these days
: has one focus and one focus only - making a bunch of money for those
: who produce it. The songs are written by songwriters who spend a
: standard eight-hour day trying to write hit songs, and produced by
: singers, arrangers, producers, musicians, etc., who have exactly the
Not to mention the fact that the same "session" musicians will be on each
record. For instance you'll probably see Mark O'Connor on a dozen new
albums this month. Now there's nothing wrong with Mark O' Connor, but
most folk groups will use the same musicians in the studio that they do
on the road. A "less virtuoistic" performance will result, but also much
more individual. Besides many times with folk music its the lack of
polish that makes it's charm.
: PS - You may want to note that the music that is generally refered
: to as "Country" on commercial radio today has remarkably little to
: do with country music as we've known it in its earlier years. Instead,
: it's a pop/rock mixture that has adopted (preempted?) the country
: label mostly to set it apart from the harder rock that permeates
: the rock airways.
: history - Jimmie Rodgers, the Carter Family, Roy Acuff, Bob Wills,
: Hank Williams, etc., or you can look to the many excellent musicians
: who are making real country music today. Most of them come from
: the world of bluegrass and folk music and generally won't be found
True. Could it be that yesterdays acid rock is now rock, yesterdays rock
is now country, and much of yesterdays country is now folk?
Keith Dunnigan
x
In <58i1qn$m...@newsreader.wustl.edu> ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith
Dunnigan) writes:
>
>JAKa...@nlnex.com wrote:
> I couldn't say it any better than Jim, or list a better example of
good country musicians. One could say similar things about pop
stations then. In fact many folk artists crossed over into both
markets, for example John Denver was named the country music
entertainer of the year one year. Likewise Jim Croce, Harry Chapin and
Gorden Lightfoot were scoring hits on the pop and country charts
without totally leaving their folk roots. Dan Fogelberg and James
Taylor were leaving their rock audiences and recording good folk songs
as well. Believe it or not, Much of Billy Joels early material (many
of these recorded on "Songs in the Attic") reeked of folk before his
career took a decidedly rock twist.
>
> Keith Dunnigan
It's still happening. It's pretty hard to put out a pure folk album
that goes multi-platinum. Tracy Chapman did it twice with her first two
albums. This new album Tracy has out, New Beginning, may go
multi-platinum but IMHO is not pure folk. What I do regard as pure
folk, on the charts now and headed for multi-platinum, is Jewel's
"Pieces of You." It fits any definition of folk you want to throw out
there--mainly acoustic, one voice, not much production, activist
lyrics, etc. Jewel calls it a coffeehouse album, and she has done very
well performing it in coffee house venues. In addition, her subject
matter is a natural extension of where you would expect folk to go in
the 90s.
Stella
Stephen W. Bradney
Jim you are so right the music that they call country today is any
thing but. I long for the days when you could hear REAL country music
on a country station. Thats why I have grown to be more of a fan of
folk music it's the REAL DEAL !!!!!!
Stephen W. Bradney
Folk Singer/Songwriter
Rev. Free Radical
Stephen W. Bradney dazzled us with the following:
: Jim you are so right the music that they call country today is any
: thing but. I long for the days when you could hear REAL country music
: on a country station. Thats why I have grown to be more of a fan of
: folk music it's the REAL DEAL !!!!!!
I want to tell a story here. Bear with me, as it really has little to
do with rec.music.folk, and more to do with the current state of radio
in the US, especially Country radio. It's the story of a small station
(remaining nameless because I still have contact with them) who was
forced to change.
Small market radio is extremely difficult to keep afloat in this day
and age. A small Country station in Massachusetts (FM, with an adult
contemporary AM station) was one of these stations struggling. It was
a niche station. There was an extremely popular DJ on the station who
would regularly play old Country, some Folk, basically would play what
he felt fit the format of "Country," not some pin stripe wearing radio
"executive" felt was Country.
The radio station was having trouble with money, and the owners decided
it must be the music, not the lackluster sales force that was causing
the problems. They hired a consultant to assess the station, and the
first thing he did was fire the above DJ and make the station go
Mainstream Country.
The management of this station went along with nearly every proposal
that this consultant laid out. The AM station was also changed to an
older format.
As far as I can tell, the only thing that this consultant did to help
the station in the long run was have them hire more competent sales
people. They removed the hook that made the station unique, and now
it's just another crappy Country station.
Sorry, just had to vent. This all happenned over the summer, and I'm
still fuming over it all.
toodles,
rev. jeff gilson, the free radical :-}
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
When the going get's tough, the tough go
and have a little cry in the corner.
-Rimmer, Red Dwarf
Ron Krause
ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith Dunnigan) wrote:
>Jim Gilliland <rri...@ibm.net> wrote:
> Keith Dunnigan
Keith,
What an interesting analogy! Further, since my former love was
yesterday's rock, it would explain my undying love for what is now
billed as country!
Now I have an answer to all of my critics!
Thanks!
Ron
Countr...@pipeline.com
ro...@pipeline.com
rkr...@dlj.com
+++++ Country Music Is Really Back - Y107 New Country 107.1 FM +++++
+++++ That's My Story And I'm Stickin' To It! +++++
John Albert
I'm sitting here listening to classic Ralph Stanley recordings from
the '70's, reading this topic, and wondering, "why don't I listen to
**folk** music anymore???"
Because, unlike many here, I started as a "folkie" back in the '60's,
found bluegrass, and have since "left" folk, without much lookin' back.
There's quite a difference between "Nashville" music - which is now
commonly referred to as "country music" - and REAL "traditional country
music", which is generally disdained by commerical "country" music
stations and listeners. No commercial potential, they'll tell you.
I see little or no "connection" between bluegrass and Nashville music.
I NEVER listen to "Nashville/commercial country" - no use nor taste for
it at all. When Ricky Skaggs left bluegrass for Nashville, I stopped
listening. I didn't even know Keith Whitley had "made it" in Nashville
until after he'd died - I thought he'd just "quit bluegrass" for a "day
job"!
I remember the first time I put Stanley's music on the stereo, back
around '73. After listening - and playing - urban "folk" music, Ralph
sounded strange and foreign. But I came around. Now, it's folk music -
and many urban "folk" musicians - who all too often sound pretentious,
almost phony, to me.
Guess I've changed...
- John
wil...@hg.uleth.ca
In article <58i16c$m...@newsreader.wustl.edu>, ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith Dunnigan) writes:
>Jim Gilliland <rri...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
>
> Not to mention the fact that the same "session" musicians will be on each
> record. For instance you'll probably see Mark O'Connor on a dozen new
> albums this month. Now there's nothing wrong with Mark O' Connor, but
> most folk groups will use the same musicians in the studio that they do
> on the road. A "less virtuoistic" performance will result, but also much
> more individual. Besides many times with folk music its the lack of
> polish that makes it's charm.
>
Personally I don't like the lack of musicianship on folk albums. In fact
one of my biggest reasons for liking country music is the fact that the
best musicians in the world work out of Nashville.
I really liked what Vince Gill said one year when he was given the CMA
Entertainer of the Year award. After making a comment to the effect that
Garth Brooks had more fans attend one concert then had come to see Vince
all year, (so what's the point of the award anyway), he made another comment
along the lines of "Funny, you know, I never thought of myself as an
entertainer. I always preferred to think of myself as a musician."
Pete
The Black Hat
John Albert wrote:
>
> I'm sitting here listening to classic Ralph Stanley recordings from
> the '70's, reading this topic, and wondering, "why don't I listen to
> **folk** music anymore???"
> Because, unlike many here, I started as a "folkie" back in the '60's,
> found bluegrass, and have since "left" folk, without much lookin' back.
> There's quite a difference between "Nashville" music - which is now
> commonly referred to as "country music" - and REAL "traditional country
> music", which is generally disdained by commerical "country" music
> stations and listeners. No commercial potential, they'll tell you.
> I see little or no "connection" between bluegrass and Nashville music.
I hear ya. I can't understand why Nashville makes gods out of Bill
Monroe and Bob Wills (I'm a BIIIIIIIG western swing fan) but doesn't put
out anything that sounds anything like either one of them.
> I remember the first time I put Stanley's music on the stereo, back
> around '73. After listening - and playing - urban "folk" music, Ralph
> sounded strange and foreign. But I came around. Now, it's folk music -
> and many urban "folk" musicians - who all too often sound pretentious,
> almost phony, to me.
> Guess I've changed...
I don't think you have, John. My ex-MCC and Iris fan commented about
'urban folk' that the modern folkies (as opposed to the 60's) are devoid
of any social or political cause they can ride to stardom or even get
anybody exited about. I know a lot of 'urban folk' is quite political
but if you think they're preaching to the choir, you're probably
accurate.
I'm not too familiar with Ralph Stanley but I can imagine him being
really good. My friend also let me borrow a "Mountain Stage Sampler"
which includes 70's veteran John Prine (He always sounded like Bob Dylan
if Dylan had a sense of humor) along with R.E.M. and guess what, Kathy
Mattea is on along with the Indigo Girls and Crash Test Dummies
(somebody who crossed over to alternative rock and had a great video on
MTV). Mountain Stage showcases people from a lot of genres. It's a good
show.
I started this thread and thank all of you for your answers. BTW,
107.1 comes in just fine in my truck. Now it's up to us tough cookies
from NY-NJ to get them to play more Emmylou, Strait, Cash and BR5-49 and
other real country and to lay off the pop dreck that we hear too much
of. Thy DO play some of the good ol' stuff.
Bob
Matt Stone
In article <58h348$1t92$1...@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>,
rri...@ibm.net (Jim Gilliland) wrote:
>In <E2492...@nonexistent.com>, The Black Hat <blac...@nji.com>
writes:
>>....seems to be some overlap between both genres....
>
>> I guess the folkies may want their music with not so much production
>>or insturmentation, but a lot of 'folk' artists will have a bass and
>>drums and sometimes synthesizers accompaning them, so whats' going on
>>here?
>
>Most of the so-called country music that's made in Nashville these days
>has one focus and one focus only - making a bunch of money for those
>who produce it. The songs are written by songwriters who spend a
>standard eight-hour day trying to write hit songs, and produced by
>singers, arrangers, producers, musicians, etc., who have exactly the
>same goal. Under these circumstances, it is very difficult to produce
>music with any substance - most of it is pure fluff, with no subtlety
>or intelligence.
>
>Most of what we generally refer to as "folk music" has a very different
>nature. It is written and produced from the heart. Certainly there is
>a hope on the part of the producers to make a living from it, but that
>isn't the principal driving force.
>
>You're right that there is an overlap. Mary Chapin Carpenter is an
>excellent example of that. And there are Nashvillle songwriters who
>are quite capable of turning out quality material - even though
>they're writing songs as a nine-to-five job (Pat Alger comes to
>mind). But they tend to be the exception that proves the rule <g>.
>
>Jimmie Wilson, WRUW, Cleveland
>
>PS - You may want to note that the music that is generally refered
>to as "Country" on commercial radio today has remarkably little to
>do with country music as we've known it in its earlier years. Instead,
>it's a pop/rock mixture that has adopted (preempted?) the country
>label mostly to set it apart from the harder rock that permeates
>the rock airways.
>
>If you want to hear real country music, you'll probably have to get
>away from the commercial stations. You can turn to country music's
>history - Jimmie Rodgers, the Carter Family, Roy Acuff, Bob Wills,
>Hank Williams, etc., or you can look to the many excellent musicians
>who are making real country music today. Most of them come from
>the world of bluegrass and folk music and generally won't be found
>on commercial radio - Robin and Linda Williams, Iris DeMent, Tim
>O'Brien, Laurie Lewis, Dry Branch Fire Squad, Doc Watson, Sam Bush,
>Riders In The Sky, etc.
>
>Enjoy.
>
>
I couldn't agree more!
ONE WORD: PLASTIC!
Jon Weisberger
Ralph Stanley is not a folk musician. He's a bluegrass musician.
Bluegrass is not folk music; it's a form of "commercial country music."
x
In <E288F...@nonexistent.com> The Black Hat <blac...@nji.com>
writes:
>I don't think you have, John. My ex-MCC and Iris fan commented about
>'urban folk' that the modern folkies (as opposed to the 60's) are
>devoid of any social or political cause they can ride to stardom or
>even get anybody exited about. I know a lot of 'urban folk' is quite
>political but if you think they're preaching to the choir, you're
>probably accurate.
It's not so that urban folk is devoid of causes. Today's folk artists
are as plugged in to their culture as were the Dylans and Baez's of the
60s. The issues have changed. Today's frontier is self-knowledge, how
we think and feel about ourselves and others, particularly those who
are different from us. It's also about expressing feelings more
honestly. Whether you like Jewel or not, you can't say her songs are
bland or ordinary. They are crisp personal vignettes about quirky
things and people in her life. And they are selling.
Iris Dement is taking heat from "folk-snobs" who claim she sold out,
that her "political songs" are trite polemic. They are not. Trite
polemic has no feeling attached to it. In classics like "Wasteland of
the Free" and "Wall in Washington" Iris has poured a ton of personal
feeling in with the message. Also, her take on politics reflects a
personalized maternal and mature viewpoint. I don't hear even liberal
politicos standing up for "litle kids with guns fighting inner city
wars...so what do we do we put these little kids behind prison doors."
That's not a popular thing to say, even for a liberal. It's a personal
thing she wants to say as a woman.
Iris' new album is both folk and country...and it is very different
from anything else I have heard from a woman in today's country music.
Mary Chapin Carpenter doesn't even try to live on the same plain of
innovation. The folk-snobs should be happy that Iris is creating a role
model for what progressive women in folk-country music can sound like
today. Iris is for mature women what the Indigo Girls are for
college-age women.
Stella
John Fereira
ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith Dunnigan) wrote:
> True. Could it be that yesterdays acid rock is now rock, yesterdays rock
> is now country, and much of yesterdays country is now folk?
called country western. Today country *is* popular music.
and most of the genre called progressive rock came out in the 70's.
--
John Fereira
fer...@isis.com
Isis Distributed Systems - Ithaca, NY
John Fereira
In article <58k61d$lr...@mars.online.uleth.ca> wil...@hg.uleth.ca writes:
>In article <58i16c$m...@newsreader.wustl.edu>, ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith Dunnigan) writes:
>>Jim Gilliland <rri...@ibm.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Not to mention the fact that the same "session" musicians will be on each
>> record. For instance you'll probably see Mark O'Connor on a dozen new
>> albums this month. Now there's nothing wrong with Mark O' Connor, but
>> most folk groups will use the same musicians in the studio that they do
>> on the road. A "less virtuoistic" performance will result, but also much
>> more individual. Besides many times with folk music its the lack of
>> polish that makes it's charm.
>>
>
>
>Personally I don't like the lack of musicianship on folk albums. In fact
>one of my biggest reasons for liking country music is the fact that the
>best musicians in the world work out of Nashville.
"Helpless Heart" album. On it you'll find the likes of Bela Fleck,
Mark O'Conner and Jerry Douglass.
mle...@torolab.ibm.com
>>>>> "stella" == x <guyg...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
stella> It's not so that urban folk is devoid of causes. Today's folk artists
stella> are as plugged in to their culture as were the Dylans and Baez's of the
stella> 60s. The issues have changed. Today's frontier is self-knowledge, how
stella> we think and feel about ourselves and others, particularly those who
stella> are different from us. It's also about expressing feelings more
stella> honestly. <SNIP>
I greatly disagree that the issues have changed. Rather, they are
constant. To me "the masses" listen differently now. With the advent
of video and the homogenization of radio (excepting college stations),
I believe "music for the masses" has never been blander.
As for folk and country fans, I listen to both and the categories
bleed over far too often to care which is which. For example, I am a
big fan of Richard Thompson (generally acknowledged as folk) but I
would have no problem comparing him to George Jones, Willie Nelson, or
Ry Cooder. Ry Cooder gives another branch, performing (great) Johnny
Cash covers on the one hand and "world music" collaborations on the
other. In fact the two blend so completely it seems nonsense to say
one listens exclusively to folk or country.
However, I'll ignore the question of whether HNC is really country ;-).
mark.
Andrzej P Pilarczyk
In article <58m1u4$1...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Stone
<mgs...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >Most of the so-called country music that's made in Nashville these days
> >has one focus and one focus only - making a bunch of money for those
> >who produce it. The songs are written by songwriters who spend a
> >standard eight-hour day trying to write hit songs, and produced by
> >singers, arrangers, producers, musicians, etc., who have exactly the
> >same goal. Under these circumstances, it is very difficult to produce
> >music with any substance - most of it is pure fluff, with no subtlety
> >or intelligence.
Here, here. The good country that's being made today seldom gets noticed.
I've seen a few people in this thread mention Iris Dement. I think she's
absolutely great, but I never hear her played on country stations
(although admittedly I don't listen too often). There's also the likes of
Emmylou Harris, Guy Clark, Nanci Griffith, Johnny Cash, Lyle Lovett and
others - many who cross over onto folk audiences - who are putting out
great records that don't get heard much outside NPR.
> >Most of what we generally refer to as "folk music" has a very different
> >nature. It is written and produced from the heart. Certainly there is
> >a hope on the part of the producers to make a living from it, but that
> >isn't the principal driving force.
Even though country music has it's roots in traditional music of the
South, I think for years now it's been much more of a pop music genre than
folk. It's true folk music IS from the heart, and OF the people in a way
that commercial country will never be. But good Old Time music and classic
or 'traditional' country has close ties to folk msuci for sure.
> >If you want to hear real country music, you'll probably have to get
> >away from the commercial stations. You can turn to country music's
> >history - Jimmie Rodgers, the Carter Family, Roy Acuff, Bob Wills,
> >Hank Williams, etc., or you can look to the many excellent musicians
> >who are making real country music today.
Absolutely... and I would say to look to Old Time music and Bluegrass (in
the traditional vein) for the closest thing to 'real' country music that's
being made today.
One suggestion that's been made in this thread which I really dispute is
that folk music is played by amateurs or that folk musicians are generally
of a lesser calibre than country musicians. This is largely untrue.
It's accurate to say that many folk musicians don't aspire to be virtuosos
and that folk music by it's nature does not require expert musicianship.
Of course the main ideas of folk music is that it's a community type of
experience, that it gets passed on through the oral tradition, and that
singing and playing is an experience that should be enjoyed by all people
of any level of ability.
Having said that, I think that anyone that's complaining about lack of
musicianship in folk music has done a huge blink and missed a lot of super
talent. Listen to Pete Seeger or Tony Trishka play banjo, or to singers
like Priscilla Herdman or Anne Hills, or concertina players like Lou
Killen or John Roberts, or fiddlers like Martin Hayes or Eileen Ivers, or
Hammered Dulcimer players like Bill Spence or John McCutcheon... and I'm
just scraping the surface of the surface of the surface here. There is an
abundance of amazing technical ability among folk musicians and to suggest
otherwise is just an indication that you haven't listened closely... Give
another listen!!!
Keith Fotheringham
Keith Dunnigan
x <guyg...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: In <E288F...@nonexistent.com> The Black Hat <blac...@nji.com>
: writes:
: >I don't think you have, John. My ex-MCC and Iris fan commented about
: >'urban folk' that the modern folkies (as opposed to the 60's) are
: >devoid of any social or political cause they can ride to stardom or
: >even get anybody exited about. I know a lot of 'urban folk' is quite
: It's not so that urban folk is devoid of causes. Today's folk artists
: are as plugged in to their culture as were the Dylans and Baez's of the
: 60s. The issues have changed. Today's frontier is self-knowledge, how
: we think and feel about ourselves and others, particularly those who
: are different from us. It's also about expressing feelings more
Pretty bland when compared to stopping a war, don't you think?
Keith
Keith Dunnigan
Jon Weisberger <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: Ralph Stanley is not a folk musician. He's a bluegrass musician.
Sure He is. Of course if we want to split hairs, then He's not BG either,
since much of his music didn't have a banjo on it.
: Bluegrass is not folk music; it's a form of "commercial country music."
If so, it's certainly not very "commercial".
Keith Dunnigan
Keith Dunnigan
Andrzej P Pilarczyk <An...@Albany.net> wrote:
: Having said that, I think that anyone that's complaining about lack of
: musicianship in folk music has done a huge blink and missed a lot of super
: talent. Listen to Pete Seeger or Tony Trishka play banjo, or to singers
: like Priscilla Herdman or Anne Hills, or concertina players like Lou
: Killen or John Roberts, or fiddlers like Martin Hayes or Eileen Ivers, or
: Hammered Dulcimer players like Bill Spence or John McCutcheon... and I'm
Not to mention the person that most guitarists (and I'm including all
genres) consider to be the best of any idiom, Doc Watson!
Keith Dunnigan
x
In <58pkft$n...@newsreader.wustl.edu> ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith
Dunnigan) writes:
>: It's not so that urban folk is devoid of causes. Today's folk
artists are as plugged in to their culture as were the Dylans and
Baez's of the 60s. The issues have changed. Today's frontier is
self-knowledge, how we think and feel about ourselves and others,
particularly those who are different from us. It's also about
expressing feelings more
>
> Pretty bland when compared to stopping a war, don't you think?
>
> Keith
I don't think so, Keith. Take my favorite movie of the year, "Dead Man
Walking." Stopping a war is like saying "I'm against capital
punishment" or "I'm for capital punishment." It's a matter of
conviction, and there's nothing wrong with having conviction. But it's
more challenging to feel all the nuances of what flesh-and-blood humans
are experiencing on both sides. You're for capital punishment? Oh, well
then come and sit on death row with the mother of this guy who's about
to take the walk. You're against capital punishment? Come over to the
house of the little girl who was brually murdered and feel the
emptyness that still pervades the house, a year later. When you can
feel both of those losses very deeply, and sympathize with both, you've
gone beyond conviction to something even more profound and beautiful.
It's about the highest art or emotion a human is capable of. And I
think the best art of our time, like "Dead Man Walking," captures it.
This movie would not have been made 20 years ago. In fact, it would not
have been made now without Susan Sarandon.
Stella
Taro Sumitomo
The reason I listen to country music is because I like the musical
instruments- guitars, banjo, mandolin, fiddle, etc. However, I cannot
stand the subject matter of the songs! I hate cowboys and hanging out at
the rodeo and driving around in the pickup... It means nothing to me
whatsoever.
Folk songs tend to be more universal. I can sympathise with them.
ts
Taro Sumitomo
James Mark Manheim (jman...@umich.edu) wrote:
: Just a thought, but if Ambrose Bierce were writing his "Devil's
: Dictionary" today, he might have defined folk music as a sophisticated
: form of music cultivated primarily by highly literate urban elites.
Or a music cultivated by urban elites to display a fashionable sense of
sympathy to working class culture.
Dylan, whom you mention, was a perfect example of this. Where was he
born again? Defifnitely not in the South. Of course, he
alienated a lot of folk people when suddenly he went electric.
: Just another thought: artists going all the way back to Buffy Sainte-Marie
: and (occasionally, when he felt like it) Bob Dylan have tried to bring
: these forms together, since they have so much to offer each other. Surely
: there have been times when Nashville's money-driven movers and shakers
: have turned the cold shoulder to the attempt. But I think the contempt
: toward country music fans that so many in the folk community hold (and
: that you'll find amply demonstrated even here from time to time) has more
: to do with it.
Yes, country music fans are usually seen as conservatives (read rednecks)
while folk music fans are seen as left wing radicals (read hippies). It
probably is a cultural thing. Of course, bands like the Byrds, and the
Grateful Dead had definite country/bluegrass influences and even made
recordings in Nashville. The Byrds even played the Grand Ole' Opry on one
occasion. But I digress..
ts
Jon Weisberger
Keith Dunnigan <ke...@wubios.wustl.edu> wrote in article
<58pka1$n...@newsreader.wustl.edu>...
> Jon Weisberger <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> : Ralph Stanley is not a folk musician. He's a bluegrass musician.
>
> Sure He is. Of course if we want to split hairs, then He's not BG
either,
> since much of his music didn't have a banjo on it.
You have me confused with someone else <g>; I'm not part of the
gotta-have-a-banjo-on-every-tune crowd.
> : Bluegrass is not folk music; it's a form of "commercial country music."
>
>
> If so, it's certainly not very "commercial".
Well, how commercially *successful* it is is another story....
x
In <58qtbf$uoj$6...@nargun.cc.uq.oz.au> e432...@student.uq.edu.au (Taro
Sumitomo) writes:
>: Just another thought: artists going all the way back to Buffy
Sainte-Marie and (occasionally, when he felt like it) Bob Dylan have
tried to bring these forms together, since they have so much to offer
each other. Surely there have been times when Nashville's money-driven
movers and shakers have turned the cold shoulder to the attempt. But I
think the contempt toward country music fans that so many in the folk
community hold (and that you'll find amply demonstrated even here from
time to time) has more to do with it.
>
There's always before been a parallel between the paths of pop-rock and
country/folk music. They tended to follow the same general waves, so
that rock and country artists could cross over and share the stage
together. I see a big change here recently. Folk music continues to
parallel the trends in pop-rock, while country music is drifting apart,
into a sphere of its own. You don't see many artists crossing over to
or from country anymore, and you don't see much stage sharing between
pop-rock and country performers. On the other hand, urban folk artists
like Ani DiFranco, Tracy Chapman, Jewel, are very hip among rock fans.
If you listen to a modern pop-rock station awhile, and then tune into a
country station, it sounds real different, almost strange.
What's the next big thing in pop-rock? Watch the group 311. They are
mixing hip-hop and heavy metal/hard rock. White suburban kids went all
the way to black urban music, and now the music is backing up to meet
them halfway. Also, when before have we ever had a ska band at #1 on
the Billboard chart? Look for more mixtures of urban and
Caribbean/South American beats.
By drifting apart from the mainstream of pop-rock, country music is
focusing more on its core audience, which may be good in some ways. But
it will mean fewer sales and a gradually aging audience.
Stella
Ted Samsel
x (guyg...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
:
:
: are as plugged in to their culture as were the Dylans and Baez's of the
: 60s. The issues have changed. Today's frontier is self-knowledge, how
: we think and feel about ourselves and others, particularly those who
: are different from us.
"Self-knowledge is always bad news."
John Barth
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net "Took all the money I had in the bank,
Bought a rebuilt carburetor,
put the rest in the tank."
USED CARLOTTA.. 1995
John Lupton
In article <58pka1$n...@newsreader.wustl.edu>, ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith Dunnigan) wrote:
>Jon Weisberger <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>: Ralph Stanley is not a folk musician. He's a bluegrass musician.
Whoa...I missed this. Jon, did you *really* say this??
> Sure He is. Of course if we want to split hairs, then He's not BG either,
> since much of his music didn't have a banjo on it.
>
>: Bluegrass is not folk music; it's a form of "commercial country music."
>
>
> If so, it's certainly not very "commercial".
Hmmm, let;'s see...and Bob Dylan is *not* commercial??
We're skirting around the dreaded "what is..." debate on about 4 different
fronts here, and I have no desire to get sucked into that again, but the
notion that Ralph Stanley is *not* a folk musician is...IMHO...ludicrous,
especially on those occasions when the people saying it are pushing people
like Dylan and Baez as great folk music icons. Furthermore, if the contention
is that *any* form of country music is not folk music, then I got news for
ya...Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie got a lot of their material from the same
sources that the Stanley Brothers and Bill Monroe did. To say that Pete Seeger
is a folk musician and Ralph Stanley is not is just plain stupid, you may not
personally care for the way Ralph performs it vis-a-vis Pete, but that's a
matter of personal taste, not a definition of "folk music" - whatever that is.
I get a chuckle every time I see a glowing reference to Joan Baez's version of
"The Long Black Veil"...that song came straight out of Nashville, written by
Marijohn Wilkin and Danny Dill, it was a *big* country hit for Lefty Frizzell
back around 1960, and has been done by dozens of bluegrass and country
performers since. Guess that disqualifies Joanie as a folk singer, too,
doesn't it??
Grumble...<g>
********************************************************************************
John Lupton, SAS Comm & Network Svcs, University of Pennsylvania
"Rural Free Delivery", WVUD-FM 91.3, Newark, Delaware
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/rfd.html
Brandywine Friends of Old Time Music
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/bfotm.html
********************************************************************************
The University of Pennsylvania: a bar with a $25,000 cover charge...
Ted Samsel
John Lupton (jlu...@sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
:
: I get a chuckle every time I see a glowing reference to Joan Baez's version of
: Marijohn Wilkin and Danny Dill, it was a *big* country hit for Lefty Frizzell
: back around 1960, and has been done by dozens of bluegrass and country
: performers since. Guess that disqualifies Joanie as a folk singer, too,
: doesn't it??
And doin' Villa-Lobos' Bachianas Brasiliera #9.... next she'll do
a version of the Macarena! Harrumph!
Keith Dunnigan
x <guyg...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: In <58pkft$n...@newsreader.wustl.edu> ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith
: Dunnigan) writes:
: >: It's not so that urban folk is devoid of causes. Today's folk
: artists are as plugged in to their culture as were the Dylans and
: Baez's of the 60s. The issues have changed. Today's frontier is
: self-knowledge, how we think and feel about ourselves and others,
: particularly those who are different from us. It's also about
: expressing feelings more
: >
: > Pretty bland when compared to stopping a war, don't you think?
: >
: > Keith
: I don't think so, Keith. Take my favorite movie of the year, "Dead Man
: Walking." Stopping a war is like saying "I'm against capital
: punishment" or "I'm for capital punishment." It's a matter of
But issues such as these divide people. Issues like "war" tend to unite
them. We may have a hundred differing opinions on most issues of our
time, but let some country invade the states and watch everyone come
together.
Many contemporary folkies don't realize the war is over, they think that
they can rally people to "save the Whales" or some other such cause. I
think they should get back to folk music and not just "protest" music.
It comes off as much too preachy to me.
Your example of "Dead Man Walking" as one of todays classic movies
exemplifies the problem. The great films of our time (Casablanca, Gone
with the Wind, The Maltese Falcon, etc) weren't about preaching or
protest per se, but about narrative, story line, good writing, "spinning
a good yarn" , telling a good tale, or whatever you wish to call it. The
best folk music does the same thing. Protest music has its surges
(during the 1930s and the rise of Facism, during the VietNam
demonstrations of the 60s), but it's time is over for a while. Let's
have a little more imagination in our writing. These days a folk
singer begins his writing by looking for a good cause to exploit. I'm
not saying that all of this is bad, but I don't want to hear a whole
album of it.
Keith Dunnigan
Andrzej P Pilarczyk
> John Lupton (jlu...@sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
> :
> : I get a chuckle every time I see a glowing reference to Joan Baez's
version of
> : "The Long Black Veil"...that song came straight out of Nashville,
written by
> : Marijohn Wilkin and Danny Dill, it was a *big* country hit for Lefty
Frizzell
> : back around 1960, and has been done by dozens of bluegrass and country
> : performers since. Guess that disqualifies Joanie as a folk singer, too,
> : doesn't it??
>
> And doin' Villa-Lobos' Bachianas Brasiliera #9.... next she'll do
> a version of the Macarena! Harrumph!
>
> --
> Ted Samsel
There really shouldn't be any disparity between Country and Folk music
forms. There's nothing wrong with a pop song except that the big corps in
this country shove pop music down peoples throats so they don't get
exposed to a lot of other great music that isn't as 'accessable'.
When it comes to a performer doing a particular song, I think the only
criteria is that it moves them in some way, whether it be politically or
just for simple fun (I'd rather see a performer do a sincere take on a pop
song than a cynical or insincere rendition of a political song just
because they feel they have to). Let's not forget that the Weavers hit the
top ten, so why be bothered because Joan does pop? I say more power to
her.
Rather than discussing the differences between folk & country (music &
fans), why don't we all get together to do something to change Radio in
this country! I'd love to hear some constructive suggestions as to how to
bring together all music forms under one umbrella. I'd like to think that
there's enough open minded people in most markets to make an open format
radio station successful.
One thing I'd love to see is an NPR 2. A national public radio that was
dedicated to just playing music, and which would play all music forms with
no preference. Of course this may be a ridiculous pipedream...
Keith Fotheringham
Keith Fotheringham
Jon Weisberger
Yep, John, I said it: Ralph Stanley's not a folk musician, he's a bluegrass
musician, and bluegrass is a form of commercial country music. You know
the argument <g>. Of course, I think the term "folk music" is pretty durn
problematic these days....
The Black Hat
Taro Sumitomo wrote:
> Dylan, whom you mention, was a perfect example of this. Where was he
> born again? Defifnitely not in the South. Of course, he
> alienated a lot of folk people when suddenly he went electric.
Bob Dylan was born in Hibbing, Minnesota, in the famous Iron Range with
the richest iron ore deposits in North America. His family moved to
Duluth, MN during his boyhood.
Hopes this helps, Bob in NJ
Steve Goldfield
In article <58rqt3$c...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
John Lupton <jlu...@sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
#>In article <58pka1$n...@newsreader.wustl.edu>, ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith Dunnigan) wrote:
#>>Jon Weisberger <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
#>>: Ralph Stanley is not a folk musician. He's a bluegrass musician.
#>
#>Whoa...I missed this. Jon, did you *really* say this??
#>
#>> Sure He is. Of course if we want to split hairs, then He's not BG either,
#>> since much of his music didn't have a banjo on it.
#>>
#>>: Bluegrass is not folk music; it's a form of "commercial country music."
#>>
#>> If so, it's certainly not very "commercial".
#>
#>Hmmm, let;'s see...and Bob Dylan is *not* commercial??
#>
#>We're skirting around the dreaded "what is..." debate on about 4 different
#>fronts here, and I have no desire to get sucked into that again, but the
#>notion that Ralph Stanley is *not* a folk musician is...IMHO...ludicrous,
#>especially on those occasions when the people saying it are pushing people
#>like Dylan and Baez as great folk music icons. Furthermore, if the contention
#>is that *any* form of country music is not folk music, then I got news for
#>ya...Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie got a lot of their material from the same
#>sources that the Stanley Brothers and Bill Monroe did. To say that Pete Seeger
#>is a folk musician and Ralph Stanley is not is just plain stupid, you may not
#>personally care for the way Ralph performs it vis-a-vis Pete, but that's a
#>matter of personal taste, not a definition of "folk music" - whatever that is.
#>
#>I get a chuckle every time I see a glowing reference to Joan Baez's version of
#>"The Long Black Veil"...that song came straight out of Nashville, written by
#>Marijohn Wilkin and Danny Dill, it was a *big* country hit for Lefty Frizzell
#>back around 1960, and has been done by dozens of bluegrass and country
#>performers since. Guess that disqualifies Joanie as a folk singer, too,
#>doesn't it??
#>
#>Grumble...<g>
#>
#>
#>********************************************************************************
#>John Lupton, SAS Comm & Network Svcs, University of Pennsylvania
Wasn't it a Lewis Carroll character who said that his
words meant exactly what he meant them to mean and that
what was important was who was in control (him or the
words)? In this discussion, "bluegrass" is obviously a
much more precise term than is "folk," for all the debates
about how to define bluegrass. At least those who listen to
and play bluegrass have broad areas of agreement about what
is included. But folk! For instance, in British English, it
strongly implies traditional, whereas in the USA it has
come to include singer/songwriters with little or no link
to any tradition known to me. Ralph is certainly a
traditional musician since he grew up in a musically
coherent community and since he learned both to sing and
to play clawhammer banjo there (the latter from his mother).
In that sense, I see his music as much more "folk" than a lot
of what gets discussed in this newsgroup. But he is also
one of the pioneers of bluegrass, which Jon rightly
identifies as not only a commercial form of music but as
one which was developed on stage, in front of audiences, and
with microphones, unlike much of old-time music, for
example, which largely developed on porches, in parlors,
and at unamplified dances. A key question here is: Does a
traditional musician who records or goes on stage before an
audience cease to be a traditional musician? In my view,
tradition is much more flexible than that. It can change to
encompass radically new modes of performing without losing
its connection to community and continuity with the past.
In fact, that it just what has happened to traditional music
in this century. So Ralph is both folk and bluegrass. He's
even a singer/songwriter, which goes to show little that
term tells us about anybody or anything.
As to why more folks aren't country fans--assuming that
we're talking about what I consider to be the genuine
article and not the predominant export from Nashville--
to me that's the same question as why so many people voted
for Democrats and Republicans, why people think we ought to
eliminate the budget deficit, and so on. Jonathan Swift's
scientists had the ability to turn anything into shit and to
make people like it. Swift's prediction has just come true.
--
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Steve Goldfield :<{ {>: ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu
x
In <58s9fr$c...@newsreader.wustl.edu> ke...@wubios.wustl.edu (Keith
Dunnigan) writes:
> But issues such as these divide people. Issues like "war" tend
to unite them. We may have a hundred differing opinions on most issues
of our time, but let some country invade the states and watch everyone
come together.Many contemporary folkies don't realize the war is over,
they think that they can rally people to "save the Whales" or some
other such cause. I think they should get back to folk music and not
just "protest" music. It comes off as much too preachy to me.
>
Your example of "Dead Man Walking" as one of todays classic movies
exemplifies the problem. The great films of our time (Casablanca, Gone
with the Wind, The Maltese Falcon, etc) weren't about preaching or
protest per se, but about narrative, story line, good writing,
"spinning a good yarn" , telling a good tale, or whatever you wish to
call it. The best folk music does the same thing. Protest music has
its surges (during the 1930s and the rise of Facism, during the VietNam
demonstrations of the 60s), but it's time is over for a while. Let's
have a little more imagination in our writing. These days a folk
singer begins his writing by looking for a good cause to exploit. I'm
not saying that all of this is bad, but I don't want to hear a whole
album of it.
>
> Keith Dunnigan
You missed the whole point of my post, Keith. "Dead Man Walking" is not
a movie about a cause (capital punishment). It's a movie that asks you
to FEEL what both sides of this divisive issue feel. If you've seen the
movie, you know what I'm saying. There is not an ounce of preaching in
it. Narrative is fine, but art that makes you FEEL deeply is even
better. The sad part is that people have lost the ability to feel. So
that when a very feeling album like Iris Dement's comes out, they leap
at the notion that it is preaching. They have lost the power to feel
what Iris is feeling in conceiving and delivering the songs. The same,
probably, for many people who saw "Dead Man Walking." They went out of
the movie convinced that they saw a movie for or against capital
punishment, and totally missed the unusual and evocative art delivered.
Stella
TKrugman
Let's not forget the politic dimension here; ever hear a country song
critical of the military, or patriotism , or praising civil rights ? (
Don't mention Kenny Rogers' "Ruby" that's about a cheatin' woman.) Recall
that Kristofferson's song about Martin Luther King was banned from most
country and western stations because of it's "political" content. Folk
also has a wider scope of topics .
Mickey
I think that everyone is spending waaaaay too much time worrying about
this.
Jon Weisberger <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<01bbe94e$7ec23bc0$7b2db7c7@jon-weisberger>...
Don Yates
On 14 Dec 1996, TKrugman wrote:
> Let's not forget the politic dimension here; ever hear a country song
> critical of the military, or patriotism , or praising civil rights ? (
Sweeping statements like the above are pretty easy to refute. For an
example of the former: Cliff Bruner's Texas Wanderers - "Draft Board
Blues," recorded in 1941. For the latter, try Garth Brooks - "We Shall Be
Free."--don
Steve Goldfield
In article <Pine.A41.3.95b.961214...@homer16.u.washington.edu>,
Don Yates <cto...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
#>
#>
#>On 14 Dec 1996, TKrugman wrote:
#>
#>> Let's not forget the politic dimension here; ever hear a country song
#>> critical of the military, or patriotism , or praising civil rights ? (
#>
#>Sweeping statements like the above are pretty easy to refute. For an
#>example of the former: Cliff Bruner's Texas Wanderers - "Draft Board
#>Blues," recorded in 1941. For the latter, try Garth Brooks - "We Shall Be
#>Free."--don
There are actually quite a lot of examples. Earl Scruggs played
"Foggy Mountain Breakdown" at a demonstration in Washington
against the Vietnam war. His rendition was on a TV documentary
and an LP including his conversation about why he was doing it.
Somebody, I think it was Jon Weisburger, mentioned Jim & Jesse
recording songs by Chuck Berry to counter bigots who liked
their music. Those are only a very few of the ones I've heard.
I think there is evidence that country musicians have been
quite a bit more progressive on average than the culture from
which they spring. *Finding Her Voice*, the book on women in
country music discusses this subject.
Robert Thurlow
>Personally I don't like the lack of musicianship on folk albums.
Excuse me? What folk albums are you talking about? The folk music
I listen to is sometimes astonishing in its virtuousity.
Rob T
Dick Wisan
In article <Pine.A41.3.95b.961214...@homer16.u.washington.
edu>, cto...@u.washington.edu says...
>
>On 14 Dec 1996, TKrugman wrote:
>
>> Let's not forget the politic dimension here; ever hear a country song
>
Dunno the second example, but the first one won't quite do the trick.
You have to keep track of the political winds in 1941. Up to December 7,
you would expect opposition to the draft from conservatives of an
isolationist mind, liberals were more likely to be interventionist.
On the other hand, up to the beginning of Operation Barbarossa in June,
during the Molotov-Ribbentrop era, it was possible for Pete Seeger
to sing "C for Conscription" (reissued on "Folk Song America - A 20th
Century Revival" Sony RD046-1).
Some time ago, someone here observed that Country is right wing
American folk music, and I think there's something in it. When
Burl Ives turned right, Nashville took him in.
That "Folks Song America" disk, BTW, is worth picking up by anybody
interested in folk music too young to remember that period. But that's
another topic.
--
R. N. (Dick) Wisan - Email: wis...@norwich.net
- Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A.
- Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax.
Jon Weisberger
Steve Goldfield <ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote in article
<58vdu5$s...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
> In article
<Pine.A41.3.95b.961214...@homer16.u.washington.edu>,
> Don Yates <cto...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> #>
> #>
> #>
> #>> Let's not forget the politic dimension here; ever hear a country song
> #>> critical of the military, or patriotism , or praising civil rights ?
(
> #>
> #>Sweeping statements like the above are pretty easy to refute. For an
> #>example of the former: Cliff Bruner's Texas Wanderers - "Draft Board
> #>Blues," recorded in 1941. For the latter, try Garth Brooks - "We Shall
Be
> #>Free."--don
>
> There are actually quite a lot of examples. Earl Scruggs played
> "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" at a demonstration in Washington
> against the Vietnam war. His rendition was on a TV documentary
> and an LP including his conversation about why he was doing it.
> Somebody, I think it was Jon Weisburger, mentioned Jim & Jesse
> recording songs by Chuck Berry to counter bigots who liked
> their music.
Wasn't me, actually, but I'll add that Jim and Jesse, Flatt & Scruggs and
Red Allen all recorded versions of Curley Sechler's "A Purple Heart," about
the return of a dead son from war; originally written about Korea, Allen
updated it to Vietnam. The High Lonesome movie also shows a brief bit of
footage of David Akeman, a/k/a Stringbeans, performing what sounded to be
an updated version of "Battleship of Maine," a comic anti-war song about
the Spanish-American war; Akeman changed the lyrics to something about
"that crazy Asian war," i.e., Vietnam. So I think that when Steve says:
> Those are only a very few of the ones I've heard.
> I think there is evidence that country musicians have been
> quite a bit more progressive on average than the culture from
> which they spring.
He's pretty much on the money.
JLizKenn
Shouldn't the question be why don't more country fans like folk
music? Folk is such a rareified taste, a minuscule market, folk
concerts largely taking place in church basements, living rooms
and small clubs, while country concerts take place in huge
auditoriums and stadiums, albums going platinum constantly.
Country is about the biggest thing going in music these days.
If I really thought the two arenas had more in common than to
distinguish them, I think I'd wonder why more of those country fans
(who are lately from all regions and walks of life) don't take a huge
shine to the best singer/songwriters working the folk circuit.
Where I've seen the big overlap in recent years is in the lure of
Nashville to folk-style writers. The songwriting contests at (folk!)
festivals like Napa and Kerrville have folkies turning out the
snappiest, catchiest, hookiest, chorus-driven, upbeat stuff they can
come up with, knowing that country stars like Kathy Mattea and
Trisha Yearwood show up at these venues, and that winners' songs
show up on country albums all the time. That's great for everybody,
except I think it can't help but guide the quality and form of many of
our folk writers' work. Once a folk singer scores an album cut on a
major-label country release, can that writer not help but try for
another one? Repeat the best success they've ever had, the best chance
for turning their songwriting into the thing they can spend from 9
to 5 doing? Who wouldn't? A lot of them relocate that very
year, to Nashville. You could therefore be pleased that there's a
little bit of folk influence in this huge country machine, or, like me,
distressed that country is changing the form of folk albums
and concerts. You could line dance to a lot of what you hear
at folk clubs anymore, and that's not the experience I go there for.
--Joan
Maria Louise Kozi
: >Personally I don't like the lack of musicianship on folk albums.
: Excuse me? What folk albums are you talking about? The folk music
: I listen to is sometimes astonishing in its virtuousity.
: Rob T
I've got to agree with Rob on this one-- just looking at contemporary folk
music I would say that Shawn Colvin, Patty Larkin, Ani DiFranco, and John
Gorka are some of the best musicians and songwriters aroune-- all are
considered folk. That's just a few, and doesn't even include older folk
musicians.
Maria
--
******************************************************************************
Maria Kozi * "The butter melts out of
mlk...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu * habit, you know the toast isn't
* even warm."
George Washington University *
Washington, DC * Ani DiFranco
* "Out of Habit"
******************************************************************************
x
In <58vdu5$s...@agate.berkeley.edu> ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Steve
Goldfield) writes:
>#>> Let's not forget the politic dimension here; ever hear a country
song critical of the military, or patriotism , or praising civil rights
Sweeping statements like the above are pretty easy to refute. For an
example of the former: Cliff Bruner's Texas Wanderers - "Draft Board
Blues," recorded in 1941. For the latter, try Garth Brooks - "We Shall
Be Free."--don
>
>I think there is evidence that country musicians have been
>quite a bit more progressive on average than the culture from
>which they spring. *Finding Her Voice*, the book on women in
>country music discusses this subject.
It is not true, Steve, that country musicians are more progressive than
the culture from which they spring. There is a good parallel here
between Hot New Country and the increasingly popular Irish rock music,
as made by groups like the Pogues, Cranberries, and (my favorite)
OysterBand.
Irish rock music is fueled by passionate feelings, particularly
protest, anger and defiance. They generally hate the British and are
constantly shaking their fists against poverty, lack of social
mobility, and a feeling of being abandoned and forgotten in a big
world. They also write ironically and sometims bitterly about the
battle between the sexes. Hot New Country, on the other hand, is mostly
music without passion. There is a huge population of disillusioned,
pissed-off American veterans out there, and country music is the
natural genre to give them voice...but it doesn't. There are many poor
white Americans who feel left out and abandoned...but today's country
does not speak to their aspirations of upward mobility. There are over
1 million native American Indians in the U.S. who have an unemployment
rate of 25%+...and country music gives them Cherokee Boogie.
Also, Irish rock does a very good job modernizing the traditions of
Irish music, much better than Hot New Country does of modernizing
traditional rural American music. The range of voices and subject
matter in Hot New Country is incredibly narrow, and the passion level
is below zero.
Stella
Simon van Dongen
>Taro Sumitomo wrote:
Yes, but where (and how often) was he born *again*?
Simon
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> Rotterdam, The Netherlands
'My doctor says I have a malformed public duty gland and a
natural deficiency in moral fibre,' he muttered to himself,
'and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'
Life, the universe and everything
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Matt Stone
I am really enjoying this thread - seems the breakdown is
that:
Folk music - less commercialized (and therefore less
creatively constrained or "formula" driven), and more
to do with the artist's thoughts and dreams (as opposed to
the big label or big star's). I look at Folk music as this
big non-commercial organism. As soon as a certain cell gets
too commercially "hot" - it is spun off - like cell division,
and the root organism remains - changed perhaps - but not taken along
for the ride. Can you IMAGINE if the big money interests
behind the Country Music BIZ set their eyes on Folk and took over?
I shudder at the thought.
Country music - really commercialized (with a capital C),
all about money first and artist expression second (if at
all). But comes from a great legacy - and needs to get
back to its roots - I PREDICT THIS WILL HAPPEN! C - fans will
get jaded - artists will be looking for a new direction - and
you will have retro-country - within the next 5 years.
(I can dream can't I?)
Both - have some great artists and some great songs - despite their
respective limitations.
Also - from another posting - I would enjoy hearing a lot more
variety in music on the radio - either through an NPR2 or through
a visionary commercial station. We have a radio station at
EVERY location on the dial in southern California, yet I am lucky to
hear something NEW to me (other than on the college/NPR stations).
I can think of maybe one commercial station in my area that even tries
to introduce it's listeners to new sounds.
Finally - I can't agree with the reader who said that there
is nothing for folk music to be speaking to these days
(as opposed to say - the war in Vietnam). And the fact
that people out there don't think there's anything to
talk about in our society today points out the need all the more.
John Lupton
In article <01bbe94e$7ec23bc0$7b2db7c7@jon-weisberger>, "Jon Weisberger" <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Yep, John, I said it: Ralph Stanley's not a folk musician, he's a bluegrass
>musician, and bluegrass is a form of commercial country music. You know
>the argument <g>. Of course, I think the term "folk music" is pretty durn
>problematic these days....
Yeah, well, in a way that's the whole point, and Steve G.'s allusion to Lewis
Carroll is a propos...if someone *says* they're playing "folk music", then by
golly, it must *be* "folk music". One of the smash acts at the Philly Folk
Festival last August was Wolfstone, and they did put on a good show, but
basically what they are is rock and roll with bagpipes thrown in. I guess this
means if you add bagpipes to anything, it's instant folk music, the same way
many people seem to think that adding a banjo to anything makes it bluegrass,
although I personally don't see how anyone can call what Bela Fleck and the
Flecktones are doing bluegrass...this is all making my brain hurt, I give up
for now.
Next time I see you, Jon, we'll talk about it over a beer...or six...<g>
********************************************************************************
John Lupton, SAS Comm & Network Svcs, University of Pennsylvania
wil...@hg.uleth.ca
In article <thurlowE...@netcom.com>, thu...@netcom.com (Robert Thurlow) writes:
>In article <58k61d$lr...@mars.online.uleth.ca>, <wil...@hg.uleth.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Excuse me? What folk albums are you talking about? The folk music
>I listen to is sometimes astonishing in its virtuousity.
>
>Rob T
I didn't mean this statement as a knock against folk musicians, they play
to support the song, and they do that well enough, but I don't think
there is the same emphasis on pure musicianship in folk music as there
is among the studio players in Nashville.
Pete
Tonysica
Because of the sameness of the top 40 country radio. Guys with hats, doing
honky tonk songs all trying to sound like Garth, Merle or George Jones.
There are more than a few brilliant folks in country. Mary Chapin, Kevin
Welch<sp>, Lyle, Kathy Mattea etc., but most of the real good country is
not found on the radio, like Iris Dement or Nanci Griffith.
I am a fan of both country & folk. I just can't listen to country radio.
Tony Sica
Tony Sica "Detour"
WTMD-FM Towson St. Univ
Baltimore, Md
Chris Conway
wil...@hg.uleth.ca wrote:
> I didn't mean this statement as a knock against folk musicians, they play
> to support the song, and they do that well enough, but I don't think
> there is the same emphasis on pure musicianship in folk music as there
> is among the studio players in Nashville.
>
> Pete
Geesh. Go listen to Dar Williams, Lynn Miles, Garnet Rogers, Patty
Larkin and Shari Ulrich before making such general judgements about
"pure musicianship". So I've got to ask: Name 5 folk musicians you had
in mind when you made the statement above.
The Black Hat
Chris Conway wrote:
>
> wil...@hg.uleth.ca wrote:
>
> > I didn't mean this statement as a knock against folk musicians, they play
> > to support the song, and they do that well enough, but I don't think
> > there is the same emphasis on pure musicianship in folk music as there
> > is among the studio players in Nashville.
> >
> > Pete
>
> Geesh. Go listen to Dar Williams, Lynn Miles, Garnet Rogers, Patty
> Larkin and Shari Ulrich before making such general judgements about
> "pure musicianship".
I appreciate Chris for that list of great folk musicians. I'll keep an
ear peeled for them. I guess the confusion comes because I think 'folk'
is basically lyric intensive, with the content of the song most
important. I kinda doubt folk fans are listening for any dazzling
guitar solos or Wynton Marsalis blowing his trumpet to high heaven.
The Black Hat
JLizKenn wrote:
>
> Shouldn't the question be why don't more country fans like folk
> music? Folk is such a rareified taste, a minuscule market, folk
> concerts largely taking place in church basements, living rooms
> and small clubs, while country concerts take place in huge
> auditoriums and stadiums, albums going platinum constantly.
I think I'd wonder why more of those country fans
> (who are lately from all regions and walks of life) don't take a huge
> shine to the best singer/songwriters working the folk circuit.
>
> Where I've seen the big overlap in recent years is in the lure of
> Nashville to folk-style writers. The songwriting contests at (folk!)
> festivals like Napa and Kerrville have folkies turning out the
> snappiest, catchiest, hookiest, chorus-driven, upbeat stuff they can
> show up on country albums all the time. That's great for everybody,
> except I think it can't help but guide the quality and form of many of
> little bit of folk influence in this huge country machine, or, like me,
> distressed that country is changing the form of folk albums
> and concerts. You could line dance to a lot of what you hear
> at folk clubs anymore, and that's not the experience I go there for.
>
> --Joan
Hiya, Joan. I wonder why you think that trend is a bad thing. I'm
speaking for myself, but I'm a big fan of Western Swing, especially the
Texas Playboys and Asleep at the Wheel. Their kind of basically has a
50/50 mix of vocals and insturment solos, sort of like a jazz structure.
I just thought some of us 'real country' or 'retro country' fans really
appreciate some really hot fiddle, piano, steel or guitar playing along
with the song.
I guess a lot of music listening is done at work or while driving or
doing something else kind of noisy, so it may be tough for some
folksinger strumming a solo guitar to get attention to her profound
lyric content, especially if her singing falls far short of Sarah
McLuaghlin or Judy Collins. I guess the ol' Bob Dylan 'folk-rock' trick
could get some folkies some notice like it did 30 years ago.
x
In <E2JED...@nonexistent.com> The Black Hat <blac...@nji.com>
writes:
>I appreciate Chris for that list of great folk musicians. I'll keep an
>ear peeled for them. I guess the confusion comes because I think
'folk' is basically lyric intensive, with the content of the song most
>important. I kinda doubt folk fans are listening for any dazzling
>guitar solos or Wynton Marsalis blowing his trumpet to high heaven.
There are more dazzling guitar solos on a Patty Larkin album than you
will hear on most country albums. And they are by Patty.
Stella
Chris Conway
The Black Hat wrote:
> I appreciate Chris for that list of great folk musicians. I'll keep an
> ear peeled for them. I guess the confusion comes because I think 'folk'
> is basically lyric intensive, with the content of the song most
> important. I kinda doubt folk fans are listening for any dazzling
> guitar solos or Wynton Marsalis blowing his trumpet to high heaven.
Sure, some folk IS lyric intensive. But not all. (Sorta like some
country is lyric intensive, but not all). There are lots of folk
instrumentals, and lots of folk music where (contrary to previous posts)
the lyrics are a prop for the music (not the other way around). If you
like "dazzling solos" a la Marsalis, give a listen to Patty Larkin
playing guitar. For dazzling fiddle, try Ashley MacIsaac. For dazzling
tenor guitar: Rogers and Hille. I could make similar suggestions for
mandolin, fretless bass, piano and pipes.
Folk is (a) more than ballads where the story/lyrics are key, and (b)
meets country and other genres in the middle. (MCC's John Doe #24 is
"folk", and Branford Marsalis plays sax on it)!
JLizKenn
Black Hat writes:
:I wonder why you think that trend is a bad thing. I'm
:speaking for myself, but I'm a big fan of Western Swing, especially the
:Texas Playboys and Asleep at the Wheel. Their kind of basically has a
:50/50 mix of vocals and insturment solos, sort of like a jazz structure.
:I just thought some of us 'real country' or 'retro country' fans really
:appreciate some really hot fiddle, piano, steel or guitar playing along
:with the song.
: I guess a lot of music listening is done at work or while driving or
:doing something else kind of noisy, so it may be tough for some
:folksinger strumming a solo guitar to get attention to her profound
:lyric content, especially if her singing falls far short of Sarah
:McLuaghlin or Judy Collins. I guess the ol' Bob Dylan 'folk-rock' trick
:could get some folkies some notice like it did 30 years ago.
Hey, Black Hat, good question, deserves a decent stab at an answer.
First of all, of course you re right. Country makes good
drive-time listening. Folk only does if it s a long trip and you re
driving alone, or with someone else who really wants to hear it.
I guess I'm a sucker for 'profound lyric content.' When I go to a
folk-style songwriter s concert or buy a CD by
one of them, I ve usually been drawn in by a spine-tingling
moment (sometimes on public radio), maybe in a great looping
ballad that s as long as it s gotta be to get the job done, one
that might not even have a chorus, much less a hookline.
Something that would absolutely flop on drive-time country
or any other stripe of commercial radio, because it doesn t
just wash over you and teach you its chorus like a commercial
teaches you its jingle by dint of sheer brutal repetition. It makes
you listen to the story of the words and it needs your complete
attention if it s going to have a chance to work with you.
And if it s a special song it will work, even if the singer s
voice isn t so hot. A song maybe like Cormac McCarthy s
Waltz with the Captain s Daughter or maybe that
jaw-dropping anon s Annachie Gordon.
I go to other kinds of places when I want to hear other
kinds of music, but when I go to a house concert or a
folk club and the singer launches into that catchy little
Kerrville contender, or a string of them, I start to think
he (she) is just using folk venues as sort of an entry-level
platform to try and launch a mainstream commercial career,
if they can just get that formula down right. If they do
covers of old pop songs I get irritated. Don t do your bar
set here in a concert where you ve got my concert-level
attention. I could hear that one any time, and back when
it came out I heard it plenty.
If they start to play an old Rogers and Hart, it makes me
wish I were hearing it in a jazz club with dlfferent instrumentation
and a different singer, instead of by someone who wants me to
know that he knows more than five chords.
Sometimes the rest of the originals in the set (or album) just
sounds like one generic demo after another, with maybe one
song or two that shows you the artist really had been plugged into
something special before getting fitted for the boots. And I feel
a sense of loss, thinking that maybe I won't be hearing any more
of what hooked me in originally.
--Joan
JLizKenn
Note: I posted this a couple of days ago and it hasn't shown up,
so I'm re-sending. Apologies to anyone who gets it twice.
Black Hat writes:
:I wonder why you think that trend (contemporary country's
influence on current folk writing) is a bad thing. (snip)
Hey, Black Hat, good question, deserves a decent stab at an answer.
First of all, of course you re right. Country makes good
drive-time listening. Folk only does if it s a long trip and you re
driving alone, or with someone else who really wants to hear it.
I seem to be a sap for profound lyric content. When I go to a
folk-style songwriter s concert or buy a CD by
one of them, I ve usually been drawn in by a spine-tingling
moment (sometimes on public radio), maybe in a great looping
ballad that s as long as it s gotta be to get the job done, one
that might not even have a chorus, much less a hookline.
Something that would absolutely flop on drive-time country
or any other stripe of commercial radio, because it doesn t
just wash over you and teach you its chorus like a commercial
teaches you its jingle, by dint of sheer brutal repetition. It makes
you listen to the story of the words and it needs your complete
attention if it s going to have a chance to work with you.
And if it s a special song it will work, even if the singer s
voice isn t so hot. A song maybe like Cormac McCarthy s
Waltz with the Captain s Daughter (to be fair, maybe Cormac
did this and won with it at Kerrville, but I'd be surprised to hear that.
No chorus. No hookline.) or maybe that awesome anon s
Annachie Gordon.
I go to other kinds of places when I want to hear other
kinds of music, but when I go to a house concert or a
folk club and the singer launches into that catchy little
Kerrville contender, or a string of them, I start to think
he (she) is just using folk venues as sort of an entry-level
platform to try and launch a mainstream commercial career,
if they can just get that formula down right. If they do
covers of old pop songs I get irritated. Don t do your bar
set here in a concert where you ve got my concert-level
attention. I could hear that one any time, and back when
it came out I heard it plenty.
If they start to play an old Rogers and Hart, it makes me
wish I were hearing it in a jazz club with dlfferent instrumentation
and a different singer, instead of by someone who wants me to
know that he knows more than five chords.
Sometimes the rest of the originals in the set (or album) just
sounds like one generic demo after another, with maybe one
song or two that shows you the artist really had been plugged into
something special before getting fitted for the boots. I do feel
a sense of loss, thinking I won't be hearing any more from this
one of what hooked me in originally.
-- Joan
The Black Hat
JLizKenn wrote:
>
> Note: I posted this a couple of days ago and it hasn't shown up,
>
> Hey, Black Hat, good question, deserves a decent stab at an answer.
> First of all, of course you re right. Country makes good
> drive-time listening. Folk only does if it s a long trip and you re
> driving alone, or with someone else who really wants to hear it.
>
> I seem to be a sap for profound lyric content. When I go to a
> folk-style songwriter s concert or buy a CD by
> one of them, I ve usually been drawn in by a spine-tingling
> moment (sometimes on public radio), maybe in a great looping
> ballad that s as long as it s gotta be to get the job done, one
> that might not even have a chorus, much less a hookline.
(snip)
> you listen to the story of the words and it needs your complete
> attention if it s going to have a chance to work with you.
> And if it s a special song it will work, even if the singer s
> voice isn t so hot. A song maybe like Cormac McCarthy s
> Waltz with the Captain s Daughter (to be fair, maybe Cormac
> did this and won with it at Kerrville, but I'd be surprised to hear that.
> I go to other kinds of places when I want to hear other
> kinds of music, but when I go to a house concert or a
> folk club and the singer launches into that catchy little
> Kerrville contender, or a string of them, I start to think
> he (she) is just using folk venues as sort of an entry-level
> platform to try and launch a mainstream commercial career,
> if they can just get that formula down right. If they do
> covers of old pop songs I get irritated. Don t do your bar
> set here in a concert where you ve got my concert-level
> attention. I could hear that one any time, and back when
> it came out I heard it plenty.
Thanx a whole lot for the response, Joan, and happy hollindaise to
y'all. I printed a few responses and I got some good CD's to look for
(like the ones about the really good insturmentalists), especially
somewhere I can get a trial listen (like a good library like Sussex
County, NJ) without having to buy it. The "Mountain Stage" public radio
show is a good showcase (carried by WFUV in da Bronx). Welllll, as Mark
Twain said, if it wasn't for difference of opinion, there wouldn't be a
horse race.
> If they start to play an old Rogers and Hart, it makes me
> wish I were hearing it in a jazz club with dlfferent instrumentation
> and a different singer, instead of by someone who wants me to
> know that he knows more than five chords.
That's too bad. I really like some of the old pop standards myself.
I guess they should leave that stuff to Tony Bennett and Mel Torme. I
really like those guys.
BTW, I wonder what other kinds of music do y'all listen to? I'm
into the blues and jazz big time.
Happy hollindaise again from the Jersey Hills. Bob
Thomas G. McWilliams
Thank you for your very good point.
B. F. Shelton
Anne Nugent (anug...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: *still* are). Country themes, it seems to me, deal with the mundane, in
: general. "My baby left me. My mule got lame. Lost my money in a poker
: game.", to quote George Thorogood. Pure Folk, at it's heart, is about
: activism. Something's not right, let's change it. "I Ain't A-marchin'
: Anymore", "This Land is Your Land", ETC... Seems to me, that's the
: fundamental difference.
Hm, just got thru listening to an old Carter Family album (circa 1929)
and the tune "When the World's on Fire" is remarkably akin to "This Land
is Your Land." I would guess that whoever authored the original thought
that "something's not right" with people's souls. Now there's a
"fundamental difference."
BTW, did the person who published "This Land Is Your Land" ever pay
royalties?
Just curious.
Rob Hallyburton
B. F. Shelton wrote:
>
> Anne Nugent (anug...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : *still* are). Country themes, it seems to me, deal with the mundane, in
> : general. "My baby left me. My mule got lame. Lost my money in a poker
> : game.", to quote George Thorogood. Pure Folk, at it's heart, is about
> : activism. Something's not right, let's change it. "I Ain't A-marchin'
> : Anymore", "This Land is Your Land", ETC... Seems to me, that's the
> : fundamental difference.
>
> Hm, just got thru listening to an old Carter Family album (circa 1929)
> and the tune "When the World's on Fire" is remarkably akin to "This Land
> is Your Land." I would guess that whoever authored the original thought
> that "something's not right" with people's souls. Now there's a
> "fundamental difference."
Not a good example, methinks. 1929 Carter Family is folk music in its
former sense - music played by "folks." The term country or
country/western (whatever) didn't enter the music lexicon until well
after your recording was produced.
Elliot Jackson
In article <32C9AF...@open.org>, Rob Hallyburton
<RHally...@open.org> wrote:
There are a couple of interesting but possibly misleading semantic points
being raised here.
First of all, any historian of country music worth his or her salt is
going to claim the Carter Family as proto-typical country musicians. (And
if you don't believe me when *I* say it, check out, for example, _Finding
Her Voice: The Illustrated History of Women in Country Music_
[Bufwack/Oermann, Henry Holt & Co, 1993], among others, and hear they way
*they* play it!). So, whether they're 'folk' or 'country' is kind of a
pointless argument. They're both.
Second, I would strongly dispute the concept of Capital P Pure Capital F
Folk in general, and the idea that 'folk music' is characterized by a call
to 'activism', in particular. If that's your sole criterion for
determining the difference between 'folk' and 'country', then the Child
Ballads, for example, can't possibly be considered folk music. In fact,
based on their content matter, with their relentless emphasis on love
lost, love gone wrong, love scorned, love murdered, agricultural and
working-stiff themes, I guess you'd have to call the Child
Ballads...uh...'country music'. : )
Strictly speaking, and depending on whose terms you want to use, you could
even make the point that a song like 'This Land is Your Land' is NOT a
folk song. For one thing, we know its author. For another thing, that
author was a professional musician. What's 'folk' about that? Sure,
everybody sings Woody Guthrie songs now, but everybody also sings Beatles
tunes. So, are Lennon and McCartney any less 'folk' than Woody Guthrie?
Political activism is a tricky yardstick to use to measure the 'folkiness'
of any given material as well. Midnight Oil's songs are about as overtly
political as they come. Is Midnight Oil a folk group?
I could go on and on here, but the point I'm trying to make is this: the
process of labelling something usually tells you more about the labeller
than about the thing itself. Folk music (and country) is in the ear of the
listener.
--
Elliot Jackson
Northwestern University
ejac...@nwu.edu
Hiekarate
I find Country music drifting into my collection. I don't tend to notice
until someone asks if I like alot of country music. I don't know if this
means I cant tell the differnce or if some country just happen to sound
folky. Jon
Steallight
might have something to do with the fact that modern country music is not
country music, ie music by folks of the country. rather, it seems to me
it is simply mass prouced and mass marketed pablum designed to sell
albums, pack concert halls and amass fortunes for performers, producers,
promoters, etc.
the joy of playing music is seldom apparent in modern country music.
And I get really tired of whining voices and albums/concerts where all
songs sound the same.
I listen to what I like when I hear it the first time. I ignore what is
in my mind, trash, poorly written, or poorly performed in all musical
genre's
Happily dancing in the Phil Zone and scattering Garcia Ashes!
wj...@pilot.infi.net
I am attracted to this music (what we call folk) because I like the
sound of acoustic instruments and vocal harmonies. The subject matter
doesn't,
well, matter to me. I liked "More Than Words" by the rock group Extreme
for that reason. Today's country music is essentially recycled late
'60s rock with cowboy hats. That's not to say I dislike it, I've played
a lot of it.
By the way, if you think of the strict definition of folk music, the
common man expressing himself musically with the tools he has at hand,
today's real folk music is probably Rap. Comments?
Bill Gardella
Mickey
PLEASE bury this horse!!!!
Steallight <steal...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970102142...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Stephen Suffet
wj...@pilot.infi.net wrote:
>
[snippity doo dah]
> By the way, if you think of the strict definition of folk music, the
> common man expressing himself musically with the tools he has at hand,
> today's real folk music is probably Rap. Comments?
> Bill Gardella
Greetings--
Yes, of course!
This is not an endorsement of the rap music industry . Neither is
it praise for the content (lyrical, stylistic, or musical) of any
particular rap song. But it most certainly is a recognition of rap as
an authentic folk art form.
And like any folk art, rap has its antecedents: playing the
dozens, talking blues, street corner rhyming, dj patter (particualarly
over reggae or ska in the background), beat poetry (with jazz
accompaniment), country talking songs ("Big Bad John," "Convoy,"
etc.), doggerel, folk sermons, and many other influences.
Kindest regards from New York City,
Steve Suffet
Deranger
This is only my opinion but I feel country music sometimes does share
qualities with folk and folk with country. As I see it most folk music
reads as poetry, some country songs do also.
Deranger
Modern country has more returned to it's roots IMHO. That is why it has
reached it's popularity. The joy of playing music doesn't seem as
apparent in folk, to me, as the need to express something from within.
Deranger
> might have something to do with the fact that modern country music
> is not country music, ie music by folks of the country. the joy of
Steallight
>wj...@pilot.infi.net wrote:
>
[snippity doo dah]
> By the way, if you think of the strict definition of folk music, the
> common man expressing himself musically with the tools he has at hand,
> today's real folk music is probably Rap. Comments?
> Bill Gardella
sadly, yes. Rap is probably a folk form. however, it is not one that I
can embrace, enjoy, or appreciate.
Jerry Dallal
A folk music fan who doesn't listen to country music is like
a fish without a bicycle, to abuse a time-honored cliche.
Given the many definitions of folk, one might equally ask why folk
music fans aren't folk music fans.
As an avid listener of traditional American and British folk,
I devote most of my "other" listening time to classic
pop and jazz from 1920-1935, which in many ways is more like
traditional folk that most other genres.
Floyd T. Gentry
In <E3Hoq...@world.std.com> gda...@world.std.com (Jerry Dallal)
writes:
listen to country listen to Folk. A song doesn't have to be a protest
song to be folk. My favorite is Emmylou Harris who sang Folk
throughout the Hippie days and made a switch to country. I love her
singing either way.
I would question your other listening. Classic "Pop" and "Jazz"
from the 1920-1935 is just a bit on the bad side of terrible fidelity.
Recording wasn't perfected until the forties to contain good fidelity
and have a clear sounding recording. Floyd
Jerry Dallal
Floyd T. Gentry (fge...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I would question your other listening. Classic "Pop" and "Jazz"
: from the 1920-1935 is just a bit on the bad side of terrible fidelity.
: Recording wasn't perfected until the forties to contain good fidelity
: and have a clear sounding recording. Floyd
But then we wouldn't listen to Uncle Dave, Charlie Poole, the Carter
family, or many others.
Give a listen to anything you can get your hands on by Connie Boswell (w
and wo her sisters), Crosby with Whiteman's orchestra, Ruth Etting, Bix
Beiderbecke, and especially Ted Weems (before Perry Como) . . . the list
is nearly endless, but these are good places
to start. The fidelity may not be up to today's standards, but the
performances and the orchestrations transcend it.
If you're lucky enough to live within the skip from WQEW out of NYC 1560 AM
listen to The Big Broadcast Sunday evenings from 8 to 11 p.m. You
won't believe what you've been missing.
Dick Wisan
In article <5am9s0$g...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, fge...@ix.netcom.com says...>> [snip]
>>As an avid listener of traditional American and British folk,
>>I devote most of my "other" listening time to classic
>>pop and jazz from 1920-1935, which in many ways is more like
>>
> I would question your other listening. Classic "Pop" and "Jazz"
>from the 1920-1935 is just a bit on the bad side of terrible fidelity.
>Recording wasn't perfected until the forties to contain good fidelity
>and have a clear sounding recording. Floyd
If you are interested in music, you will not notice whether distortion,
frequency limits, or what-all in the recording; if you are interested
in audio, you won't notice the music except as it contains difficult
passages to display your audio system.
Pity the poor fellow who tries to juggle both; he is continually being
carried off by the music when trying to listen for distortion and by
the distortion when trying to listen for the music.
--
R. N. (Dick) Wisan - Email: wis...@norwich.net
- Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A.
- Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax.
MCCANNCLAN
>sadly, yes. Rap is probably a folk form. however, it is >not one that I
can embrace, enjoy, or appreciate.
I think of rap, particularly in its early phase, as folk music. It is a
form of folk that I CAN embrace, enjoy, and appreciate.
barry
fort collins, colorado, usa
Frank Hamilton
>BTW, did the person who published "This Land Is Your Land" ever pay
>royalties?
>Just curious.
I think if the royalties were collected on the basis of who took from
whom, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, and half if not three quarters of
country and rock artists would all be paupers.
As to "This Land", the melody has been around for years in some form
or other. It's the content of the song that's important here.
Remember that John Lennon said that he considered it an honor to the
person he "nicked" a song from.
There are only so many notes in a scale.
Frank
Frank Hamilton
Rob Hallyburton <RHally...@open.org> wrote:
>Not a good example, methinks. 1929 Carter Family is folk music in its
>former sense - music played by "folks." The term country or
>country/western (whatever) didn't enter the music lexicon until well
>after your recording was produced.
Are we talking about commercial country music ala Nashville, Branson,
or what? As I recall the Carter's version of the "Worried Man Blues"
was a best seller for it's time. I think, however, it might be good
to ask what country music has become.
Frank
Frank Hamilton
ejac...@nwu.edu (Elliot Jackson) wrote:
>In article <32C9AF...@open.org>, Rob Hallyburton
><RHally...@open.org> wrote:
>> B. F. Shelton wrote:
>> >
>> > Anne Nugent (anug...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>> >
>> > : *still* are). Country themes, it seems to me, deal with the mundane, in
>> > : general. "
There is much in folk music that could be defined as being mundane.
. Pure Folk, at it's heart, is about
>> > : activism. Something's not right, let's change it. "I Ain't A-marchin'
>> > : Anymore", "This Land is Your Land", ETC... Seems to me, that's the
>> > : fundamental difference.
Pure "radicalism" in folk, maybe. Some of this is mundane and
political doggerel. Some of it is great.
our recording was produced.
>There are a couple of interesting but possibly misleading semantic points
>being raised here.
>First of all, any historian of country music worth his or her salt is
>going to claim the Carter Family as proto-typical country musicians.
I don't disagree with this but my caveat would be beware of historians
of country music or music in general. There are no facts, here, only
speculations and much is subjective despite the guise of field work.
(And
>if you don't believe me when *I* say it, check out, for example, _Finding
>Her Voice: The Illustrated History of Women in Country Music_
>[Bufwack/Oermann, Henry Holt & Co, 1993], among others, and hear they way
>*they* play it!). So, whether they're 'folk' or 'country' is kind of a
>pointless argument. They're both.
Agreed.
>Second, I would strongly dispute the concept of Capital P Pure Capital F
>Folk in general, and the idea that 'folk music' is characterized by a call
>to 'activism', in particular. If that's your sole criterion for
>determining the difference between 'folk' and 'country', then the Child
>Ballads, for example, can't possibly be considered folk music.
In fact,
>based on their content matter, with their relentless emphasis on love
>lost, love gone wrong, love scorned, love murdered, agricultural and
>working-stiff themes, I guess you'd have to call the Child
>Ballads...uh...'country music'. : )
I can hear them now, Travis Tritt sings Child Ballads. The Elfin
Knight picked by Chet. Tammy Wynette sings the Two Sisters. A
celebration of Cecil Sharp at Opryland. Tanya Tucker's newest single,
The House Carpenter and Roy Clark plays a multiple guitar version of
Darlin' Corey. :):) Country music indeed!
>Strictly speaking, and depending on whose terms you want to use, you could
>even make the point that a song like 'This Land is Your Land' is NOT a
>folk song. For one thing, we know its author.
Is Dixie not a folk song? Maybe not. Nor is any of the Stephen C.
Foster songs or tunes like Angelina Baker. Old Dan Tucker is not a
folk song. Nor is the Big Rock Candy Mountain and Hallelujah I'm a
Bum. All authors are known. Do we discount Thomas Moore? None of
his songs are folk songs, either.
For another thing, that
>author was a professional musician. What's 'folk' about that? Sure,
>everybody sings Woody Guthrie songs now, but everybody also sings Beatles
>tunes. So, are Lennon and McCartney any less 'folk' than Woody Guthrie?
The thing that some say is this: give it time and it becomes a folk
song. Schubert songs are now folk songs in Germany. Mozart's Twinkle
Twinkle Little Star are considered by some to be folk songs. I'd
advocate that most folk songs are attributable to that prolific
composer, Anonymous. No one ever knew who this was.
>Political activism is a tricky yardstick to use to measure the 'folkiness'
>of any given material as well. Midnight Oil's songs are about as overtly
>political as they come. Is Midnight Oil a folk group?
>I could go on and on here, but the point I'm trying to make is this: the
>process of labelling something usually tells you more about the labeller
>than about the thing itself. Folk music (and country) is in the ear of the
>listener.
And in the pocketbook.
Frank
Frank Hamilton
gda...@world.std.com (Jerry Dallal) wrote:
>A folk music fan who doesn't listen to country music is like
>a fish without a bicycle, to abuse a time-honored cliche.
And a country music fan who doesn't listen to folk music is not paying
attention to what the record companies are telling him to buy.
Folk is "out". Country is "in".
>Given the many definitions of folk, one might equally ask why folk
>music fans aren't folk music fans.
Because the definition has changed. Folk Music meant something
different in the 1940's than it came to mean in the '60's and later.
The music business became very sophisticated in it's marketing
strategy and Orwellian in it's labeling to sell records. Hence,
Kingston Trio were "Folk Music" and folks like Merle Travis, Grandpa
Jones, became "Country". And then there was "Country and Western" and
those bluegrass guys still wear cowboy hats. Go figure.
>As an avid listener of traditional American and British folk,
>I devote most of my "other" listening time to classic
>pop and jazz from 1920-1935, which in many ways is more like
>traditional folk that most other genres.
Many of the tunes came from traditional folk sources. W.C. Handy,
jazz blues from the New Orleans Storyville section, jazz marching
bands, ragtime, etc. A lot of the pop music of the twenties was based
on folk material. Stuff that Louis, King Olliver, Jelly Roll played,
this was close to the "tradition" whatever that means.
"Tradition" is one of those loaded words that mean different things to
people.
Frank
Frank Hamilton
fge...@ix.netcom.com(Floyd T. Gentry) wrote:
A song doesn't have to be a protest
>song to be folk.
There are some folklorists who would argue that protest songs are not
folk at all.
My favorite is Emmylou Harris who sang Folk
>throughout the Hippie days and made a switch to country. I love her
>singing either way.
Folk in the Hippie days is like calling Newt Gingrich an elder
statesman.
> I would question your other listening.
Classic "Pop" and "Jazz"
>from the 1920-1935 is just a bit on the bad side of terrible fidelity.
>Recording wasn't perfected until the forties to contain good fidelity
>and have a clear sounding recording.
Floyd, you can question all you want but fidelity is not exclusive to
the recording process. Performance in those times was unequaled even
by today's standards in the business. Of course, this depends on what
performance we're talking about.
Frank
Frank Hamilton
wis...@hartwick.edu (Dick Wisan) wrote:
>Pity the poor fellow who tries to juggle both; he is continually being
>carried off by the music when trying to listen for distortion and by
>the distortion when trying to listen for the music.
Good point. This is why there are so many terrible recordings being
made today. The role of the producer has become diminshed into that
of an audio techno-nerd who hasn't a clue about a good performance.
The good accoustic sound engineer is slowly becoming extinct, as well.
Lots of frisbees out there.
Frank
Jim Hori
In article <19970104145...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Steallight <steal...@aol.com> wrote:
>>wj...@pilot.infi.net wrote:
>> By the way, if you think of the strict definition of folk music, the
>> common man expressing himself musically with the tools he has at hand,
>> today's real folk music is probably Rap. Comments?
>> Bill Gardella
>can embrace, enjoy, or appreciate.
We've been around this bend before. Isn't it silly to put down any
whole genre without acknowledging that there are many variations
within the genre (well, maybe not heavy-metal)? To put down all
rap is as uninformed as someone saying they hate all folk music.
Most people I know who say that about any genre couldn't name more
than a handful of artists working in the form, and have no idea
that there is samba-rap from Brazil, toasting from Jamaica (the
seed for modern rap), folk-rap by Luka Bloom (one guitar and voice),
and on and on.
....
jimh
Stephen Suffet
>
> >BTW, did the person who published "This Land Is Your Land" ever pay
> >royalties?
>
> >Just curious.
Greetings---
Just to satisfy your curiosity, the answer is YES!
The person who published Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land"
was Howie Richmond, and his music publishing company -- The Richmond
Organization/Ludlow Music, Inc. -- has paid the royalties, first to
Mr. Guthrie himself and later to the Guthrie Children's Trust.
Regards from a nit-picker,
Steve Suffet
Stephen L Suffet
Dear Jim----
Very well put! May I also add that more than a few folkies who put
down all rap music as "filth and drivel" go absolutely ga-ga over talking
blues from another era. Well, what the heck do they think talking blues
are?
Also, notice how many folkies are willing to accept some not-so-
gentle (often sexist, often violent, often hateful) lyrics as long as they
come from some frail, 93-year-old Delta bluesman, rather than from some
robust 23-year-old guy from L.A.? What do they think that old bluesman was
like in 1927?
No, I'm not stopping here. Because while we all should rightfully
be disgusted at the mindlessly violent life-style of a handful of well
publicized rappers, are we all equally digusted at the same life style of
one Huddie Ledbetter? Or was assault and murder somehow excusable (or even
romantic, or even possibly charming) when committed by our beloved
Leadbelly? Great musician, but I wouldn't have wanted to have had a run in
with him, especially in his younger days.
And I have even more to add. Guess who wrote the following words,
all taken from one song? Ice T? Ice Cube? NWA? 2 Live Crew? Sistah
Souljah? Guess:
"The police in yo' town, they shove me around..."
"I don't wanna be pushed around by th'police in yo' town..."
"Somtimes I think I'll blow down a cop..."
"Sometimes I think I'll get me a gun,
Thirty-eight or big forty-fo'..."
The answer: It was Woody Guthrie! And guess what else? Pete Seeger wrote
the music! The song is "66 Highway Blues," and if you don't believe me,
get a copy of "Hard Hitting Songs for Hard Hit People" and turn to pages
62 and 63. (But then, of course, Woody also wrote the lyrics to "East
Texas Red" and "Tom Joad." Was he glorifying cop-killing, or was he just
"telling it like it is"?)
I have to go now. But once I get started on this topic it's a wee
bit difficult for me to stop. :-)
Regards from New York,
Where I live and I work,
The city where it's shitty,
To talk that trash talk.
You be good now!
-- Steve Suffet
Thomas Merchant
Not to mention the "mother-rapers, father-stabbers, and father-rapers"
in Alices Restaurant. We grin and laugh at these terms when we hear
them in the context of the song (and movie). And the song can get
uncensored airplay. Rape and fuck, while not completely synonomous,
are terms we poo-poo rap for using, but it's OK to use the idea in
folk. And don't forget all of the jailhouse folk songs, and murder
songs (Bank of the Ohio).
William Wagman
Stephen L Suffet (sl...@columbia.edu) wrote:
[snip]
: On 9 Jan 1997, Jim Hori wrote:
: The answer: It was Woody Guthrie! And guess what else? Pete Seeger wrote
: the music! The song is "66 Highway Blues," and if you don't believe me,
: get a copy of "Hard Hitting Songs for Hard Hit People" and turn to pages
: 62 and 63. (But then, of course, Woody also wrote the lyrics to "East
: Texas Red" and "Tom Joad." Was he glorifying cop-killing, or was he just
Well, let's keep in mind that although Woody wrote the song Tom Joad it
was a rerun of Steinbeck's book.
[snip]
--
Bill Wagman
Univ. of California at Davis
Information Resources
(916) 754-6208
Stephen Suffet
Bill---
Obviously I am aware that Woody Guthrie's "Tom Joad" is just a
condensation of Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" set to a major key
variant of "John Hardy." You could have also added that the story of
"East Texas Red" was a hobo folk-tale (known by various names in
different localities), that Woody set to one of the "Danvile Girl"
melodies. I was not making a point about the origins of the songs, but
about the way either could be taken as glorifying (excusing?
romanticizing?) cop-killing.
In a similar vein...
Many of the songs on Bruce Springsteen's "Ghost of Tom Joad"
album could be taken as apologia for assorted petty criminals and
low-lifes;
Lee Hays' & Cisco Houston's "Bad Man's Blunder" makes light out
of the cold blooded murder of a deputy sheriff;
Bob Marley's "I Shot the Sheriff" --- well, the title speaks for
itself;
Sis Cunningham's "An Oil Derrick Out by West Tulsa" celebrates a
lynching (of a strike-breaking judge, but a lynching just the same);
Bod Dylan's "Joey" turns a murderous Mafia hoodlum into a folk
hero, much the same way Woody Guthrie's "Pretty Boy Floyd" transformed
a gun-toting physcopath a generation earlier;
Phil Kelly's "The Old Alarm Clock" finds light hearted humor in a
very real and very deadly IRA bombing campaign in London;...
Well, the list can go on and on. And yet we hear little or no
objection to performing these songs. The righteous indignation seem to
be reserved for rap music, and rap music alone. Okay, maybe for rap
music and heavy metal. :-)
Anyone care to offer an explanation?
Regards again,
Steve Suffet
Stephen L Suffet
> hero, much the same way Woody Guthrie's "Pretty Boy Floyd" transformed
> a gun-toting physcopath a generation earlier;
>
Greetings----
I really should do a better job of proofreading!
Maybe Mr. Zimmerman has been pumping iron and now calls himself
Bod Dylan? :-)
Maybe Charles "Pretty Boy" Floyd was a gun-toting physcopath as
well as a gun-toting psycopath? :-)
Maybe my defense of rap music and my declining ability to spell
are both symptoms of the early stages of Alzheimer's disease? :-(
The answers to the foregoing questions are, in respective order:
'Fraid not! 'Fraid not! Hope not!
Regards again,
Steve Suffet
Stephen L Suffet
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Stephen L Suffet wrote:
[snip]
> Maybe Charles "Pretty Boy" Floyd was a gun-toting physcopath as
> well as a gun-toting psycopath? :-)
>
Make that "gun-toting psychopath"! Hope I got it right *this* time.
:-)
-- Steve
George Hawes
In a generally sensible post, tm...@acme.gatech.edu (Thomas
Merchant) wrote:
>Rape and fuck, while not completely synonomous,
Sorry Thomas, they're not merely 'not synonomous' - they're
utterly distinct.
Regards,
George
Thomas Merchant
Yes, I agree for the most part. However, in the context that they were
used in the song, I think that Arlo was trying to avoid an R-rating
for the lyrics by substituting one for the other.
If you really look at it, he took one of the most universally vile
terms, and in an acceptable manner, that could get airplay, made it
even worse. Motherf***er is bad (sorry, even I don't like to spell it
out), but isn't "father-raper" even worse?
ghost
Look; Bo Diddley's "Who Do You Love" is definitely rap music, & not exactly
morally-uplifting politically-mobilizing rap, either; its a grade-A classic
"I'm mean & evil & may be the devil & I'm gonna getcha" song.
*All* of Bo Diddley's stuff is rap, done to that same syncopated version of
"shave-&-a-haircut;-2-bits" that he'd be a richer man today for if only you
were allowed to patent rhythm (not that he necessarily invented this one; I
don't know) in this society. I don't think Mr. BD ever *sang* a note.
And "StaggerLee" is pretty much a rap song, though the famous version has
that beautiful, beautifully sung
"The night was dark & the moon was yellow & the stars came tumbling down"
sung at the start of it.
One the White side, Jim Croce's "Don't Mess With Jim" is pretty much a
rap song.
I'm not coming to any but the obvious point here, & just trying to list
things.
George Hawes
Stephen Suffet <Suf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>William Wagman wrote:
>>
>> Stephen L Suffet (sl...@columbia.edu) wrote:
<long exposition snipped>
> Well, the list can go on and on. And yet we hear little or no
>objection to performing these songs. The righteous indignation seem to
>be reserved for rap music, and rap music alone. Okay, maybe for rap
>music and heavy metal. :-)
> Anyone care to offer an explanation?
> Regards again,
> Steve Suffet
Prejudiuce?
Cheers!
George