The Life and Times of Thomas Moore
John McCreedy
Thomas Moore 1779-1852. Mr. Moore, a contemporary and friend of
Shelley and Bryon wrote some of the world's most beautiful folk songs
based on the melodies of the many ancient Airs of his homeland. Two of
the more well known are The Minstrel Boy and ....Endearing Young
Charms.
If you are knowledgeable in the music of the writer's day - I would
certainly like to hear from you.
I am also interested in whether or not, Mr. Moore had any influence on
America's Stephen Collins Foster: Beautiful Dreamer - Jeanie With The
Light Brown Hair.
Regards to one and all
Johnboy McCreedy
Music from the Mist
http://www.onepassinfo.com
Hojo2x
>I am researching the life and times of Ireland's National Poet -
>Thomas Moore 1779-1852.
> Mr. Moore...>wrote some of the world's most beautiful folk songs>based on the
melodies of the many ancient Airs of his homeland. Two of >the more well known
are The Minstrel Boy and ....Endearing Young>Charms.
>If you are knowledgeable in the music of the writer's day - I would>certainly
like to hear from you.
All I can tell you is that Mr. Moore lifted the melody for the "The Minstrel
Boy" directly from the Church of Ireland hymn "The Son of God Goes Forth To
War," (also known as "Who Follows In His Train?")
The actors Sean Connery and Michael Caine can be heard singing this hymn,
rather ineptly, in the movie "The Man Who Would Be King."
Although banished from the current Episcopal Hymnal, the full lyrics to the
song can be found in the 1940 Hymnal, which most Episcopal churches will have
onhand. The melody used in the American church is different than the Irish
original, however.
Johnboy continues:
>I am also interested in whether or not, Mr. Moore had any influence
on>America's Stephen Collins Foster
First I've heard of that. It's not inconceivable, and they do have a sort of
dreamy romanticism and mournfulness in common. But that might just be the
influence of the culture of the time, too.
That's an interesting question, and one I haven't heard raised before.
Wade Hampton Miller
bogus address
>> I am researching the life and times of Ireland's National Poet -
>> Thomas Moore 1779-1852.
>> Mr. Moore...>wrote some of the world's most beautiful folk songs based
>> on the melodies of the many ancient Airs of his homeland. Two of the
>> more well known are The Minstrel Boy and ....Endearing Young Charms.
>> If you are knowledgeable in the music of the writer's day - I would
>> certainly like to hear from you.
> All I can tell you is that Mr. Moore lifted the melody for the "The
> Minstrel Boy" directly from the Church of Ireland hymn "The Son of God
> Goes Forth To War," (also known as "Who Follows In His Train?")
Do you know where the Church of Ireland got it from? (Hymnals are
usually good with attributions).
"Believe Me If All Those Endearing Young Charms" is the old Lowland Scots
or Northumbrian tune "My Lodging is on the Cold Ground".
Did Moore in fact make a principle of using Irish tunes at all? He was
no sort of folksong collector. (The music for the _Irish Melodies_ was
provided by John Stevenson, who I know nothing about).
>> I am also interested in whether or not, Mr. Moore had any influence
>> on America's Stephen Collins Foster
> First I've heard of that. It's not inconceivable, and they do have
> a sort of dreamy romanticism and mournfulness in common. But that
> might just be the influence of the culture of the time, too.
There were quite a few people working in that genre, not just Moore and
Stevenson. Balfe was another Irishman doing it (words and music both)
and there were others in England and Scotland. Foster was surely aware
of all of them, Pittsburgh was no rural backwater.
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
John McCreedy
However, I do believe the "Air" itself goes back a little further than
the publication of a disregarded hymn.
I was a little saddened by your use of the word "lifted." It implies
dishonesty. I think you should be careful with loaded words or
otherwise someone just might suggest we criminalize everyone who has
the cheek to strum the proverbial three-chord trick.
Also, I actually thought Mr. Connery did a pretty good job on the
tune. Perspective is a wonderful thing.
Back on subject - I'm really interested in the big picture such as the
form of the early folk song - the octet structure - who else used it?
Did Mr. Foster know of Tom Moore?
Thank you - one and all.
John McCreedy
bogus address
> The Minstrel Boy - hymnal content? Thank you for the info.
> However, I do believe the "Air" itself goes back a little
> further than the publication of a disregarded hymn.
Not having a words-and-music edition of Moore handy, and not remembering
the song, I looked the tune up in _Kerr's Violin Instructor and Irish
Folk-Song Album_, published in Glasgow around 1880-1890. I was surprised
to realize I'd known it almost all my life, but *not* as a song or hymn;
the way I recall it (from the radio in England, when I was 6 or 7 years
old, 1956-7) was as an instrumental piece, quick march time. (I associate
it with "The Girl I Left Behind Me", the two tunes are very similar).
Anybody know what version I might have heard on BBC radio back then?
Presumably it was a British hit.
W. B. OLSON
I'll believe that hymn tune origin of "The Moreen" (i.e.,
'Maureen') for Moore's "The Minstrel Boy" when I see it proved
that the hymn tune is older than 1787. Moore's tune is derived
from "Moreen" in the O'Neill MS, 1787, as given in Stanford-Petrie,
#1067 (Not original with me, but I've forgotten where I read this).
That tune and the one from Stevenson and Moore's 'A Selection of Irish
Melodies, issue #5, (1813) [i.e., from the original issue) are given
as ABCs T030A & B in file T1.HTM on my website.
According to an old hymn book I have "The Son of God goes forth
to war"/ "Who follows in his train" was written by Reginald Heber
(sometime Bishop of India), who was born in 1783. (He apparently
began writing hymns and poems c 1810-12).
[All the tunes from Moore's 'Irish Melodies' are listed, with
earlier versions, in the Irish tune title index on my
website, and all are stressed-note/keynote/mode coded in file
COMBCODE.TXT.]
Few of Moore's songs have been collected from traditional
singers. That most often collected is "The Canadian Boat Song"
and that isn't in Moore's 'Irish Melodies'. You can check this
out by searching 'Note 2' in Steve Roud's folksong index for
'Moore'. Many songs by Moore are listed, but note that most are
from songbooks, not traditional singers. Calling Moore's songs
'folk songs' is, in my opinion, nonsense.
Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
John McCreedy
Research on Mr. Moore's work turned up a few interesting things.
The melody for:
"The Minstrel Boy" appears to be a distant Gaelic Air - "The Moreen."
"There Is Not In This Wide World" is "The Meeting Of The Waters" which
in itself is probably based on another tune.
"An Irish Elegy" is "The Sixpence."
"...Endearing Young Charms" was written for his wife who suffered from
a disease that caused facial disfigurement. Unfortunately, I haven't
yet turned up the Air. However, you would go a long, long way to find
a more heart-felt lyric.
It is interesting to note the man was initially rejected by Dubliners
of his day because his association with Shelley and Bryon. He was
often referred to as "that Western Brit" even though was born, raised
and educated in Dublin. He continued his studies, I believe, in
Oxford.
His body of work is astonishing - I keep stumbling upon song after
song - each one a lyrical gem. It seems he had a knack for tuning
right into the rhythm of ancient melodies and walking along the dark
and the bright side of the road.
> The Minstrel Boy: Anybody know what version I might have heard on BBC radio back then?
> Presumably it was a British hit.
This may be way off-base but I'm going to guess it was probably a
"skiffle group" of the day.... Lonnie Donnegan springs to mind but I
think it might have been before his time. Springfields, maybe?
America's Kingston Trio?
Warmest regards to one and all
John McCreedy
The last sentence of your post was pretty mean-spirited....
>Few of Moore's songs have been collected from traditional
>singers. That most often collected is "The Canadian Boat Song"
>and that isn't in Moore's 'Irish Melodies'. You can check this
>out by searching 'Note 2' in Steve Roud's folksong index for
>'Moore'. Many songs by Moore are listed, but note that most are
>from songbooks, not traditional singers. Calling Moore's songs
>'folk songs' is, in my opinion, nonsense.
It seems the modern trend is to categorize or classify music into a
certain bag. I seem to remember that Bob Dylan had a similar response
from folks when he plugged into an electric amp. "Desolation Row" all
of a sudden became Rock 'n' Roll. Why? Got me? I just think it's a
great song and follows the sonnet structure laid down by Shakespeare
and other writers of his day.
Stephen Foster, Ezra Pound, Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie along with
himself - Thomas Moore - continued the octet structure. I think even
"wrappers" follow the process.
Be a little more tolerant. If I choose to call the songs of my
homeland "folk songs" that is my choice and should be respected
whether you agree or not. To call it "nonsense" is pretty hurtful.
I have to say that I respect your knowledge and efforts within your
website. It looks like you've put in a lot of hard work for which I
commend you.
Warmest regards
John McCreedy
Hojo2x
>The Minstrel Boy - hymnal content? Thank you for the info.
>
>However, I do believe the "Air" itself goes back a little further than
>the publication of a disregarded hymn.
Then he wrote:
>I was a little saddened by your use of the word "lifted." It
implies>dishonesty. I think you should be careful with loaded words
And I think perhaps you might be a little more careful with loaded words and
condescension yourself, John: "disregarded?" Just because some committee of
twits suffering from post-Vietnam syndrome in 1980 dropped the song from one
Hymnal because they decided it was too "militant" doesn't mean it's disregarded
- many of us still love and sing the song.
As for the use "lifted," I didn't mean or intend to imply criminal intent or
theft. Where I come from it's used as a more value-neutral term. If I had
meant to say "stole" then that's the word I would have used.
Wade Hampton Miller
Nancy Hauser
You are right - it's a poor choice of word for a time honored tradition of
reusing a good tune. Even the classical composers have many "Variations on
a Theme by...", or "Gypsy Airs"...
I am fascinated by the stories behind songs. I had read, somewhere (might
have been the Irish Tenors CD, which had lots of good song-background data)
that Thomas Moore wrote the words to "Endearing Young Charms" to comfort his
wife who had a skin pigmentation disease, and was afraid that she would
become unattractive to him. So romantic...
"John McCreedy" <joh...@onepassinfo.com> wrote in message
news:7535e759.01073...@posting.google.com...
bogus address
> "...Endearing Young Charms" was written for his wife who suffered from
> a disease that caused facial disfigurement. Unfortunately, I haven't
> yet turned up the Air.
Here's a duet setting for the Northumbrian pipes (we played a somewhat
souped-up version of this on fiddle and F alto recorder):
X:1
T:Believe me if all those endearing young charms
Z:Jack Campin
C:arranged W.J. Stafford
S:The Charlton Memorial Tune Book
N:I may have tweaked this a bit in copying, I transcribed it years ago
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:G
V:1
B/A/|G>AG GBd|ceg g2f/e/|d>cB AGA |B3-B2
B/A/|G>AG GBd|ceg g2f/e/|dgB A>GA|G3-G2:|
d/c/|Bdg g2d|ecg g2f/e/|d>cB AGA |B3-B2
B/A/|G>AG GBd|ceg g2f/e/|dgB A>GA|G3-G2:|
V:2
d/c/|B>cB Bdg|Ace e2d/c/|B>AG DEF |G3-G2
d/c/|B>cB Bdg|Ace e2d/c/|BAG D>EF|G3-G2:|
B/A/|GBG B2G|cGc e2d/c/|B>AG DEF |G3-G2
d/c/|B>cB Bdg|Ace e2d/c/|BAG D>EF|G3-G2:|
Probably a search on John Chambers' ABC Tune Finder would locate dozens
of other settings (most of them complete crap, but that's the world of
ABC for you).
> "There Is Not In This Wide World" is "The Meeting Of The Waters" which
> in itself is probably based on another tune.
If the story I have for "The Meeting of the Waters" is right, Moore's song
must have been directly based on the other tune. TMotW commemorates a
massive flood in north-east Scotland in the middle of the 19th century,
when two normally separate rivers (the Spey and the Findhorn?) merged at
some point. (Source: oral tradition, i.e. if you want me to back that up,
dream on). That event was after Moore's death. But so many pipe tunes
of that era are based on older material that it might well not have been
written from scratch. The fiddle version of TMotW - wider range - sounds
more like a tune Moore might have used (but note, all versions of it on
the web in ABC seem to be screwed up in some way or other, at least none
of them is what I hear people playing in Scotland).
> It is interesting to note the man was initially rejected by Dubliners
> of his day because his association with Shelley and Bryon. He was
> often referred to as "that Western Brit" even though was born, raised
> and educated in Dublin.
Would anybody in his lifetime, anywhere, have used the word "Brit"?
Probably they meant he was educated at TCD and hence became an honorary
foreigner.
bogus address
> Few of Moore's songs have been collected from traditional singers.
> That most often collected is "The Canadian Boat Song" and that isn't
> in Moore's 'Irish Melodies'.
I thought that had been established to be by David Moir from Musselburgh?
W. B. OLSON
Hyder E. Rollins in his edition of 'A Handefull of Pleasant
Delights', 1924, noted that all references to "Greensleeves" were
subsequent to the entry of the broadside ballad in the
Stationers' Register on Sept. 3, 1580. Claude M. Simpson in 'The
British Broadside ballad and Its Music', 1966, concurred. There
is no evidence that song or tune were known in the time of Henry
VIII.
W. B. OLSON
Different song of the same title if I've got the right Scots one (on the
web). Moore's songs seems to be of 1803-4.
Brittles
<< f the story I have for "The Meeting of the Waters" is right, Moore's song
must have been directly based on the other tune. TMotW commemorates a
massive flood in north-east Scotland in the middle of the 19th century,
when two normally separate rivers (the Spey and the Findhorn?) merged at
some point. (Source: oral tradition, i.e. if you want me to back that up,
dream on). That event was after Moore's death. >>
Hi-
I don't know if this really has ANY bearing on the tune you are discussing.
(other than the name.)
The opening celebration of the Erie Canal (New York State - in 1825) was
widely called "The Wedding of the Waters".
Gov. Dewitt Clinton brought a cask of water from Lake Erie (Buffalo), to NY
City, and dumped it into the Atlantic Ocean, just outside the harbor.
There was a song published - similarly called, "The Meeting of the Waters" -
written for the event. "Written by Samuel Woodworth, 1825, Sung by Mr.
Keene, at the Grand Canal Celebration"
Could they be related? Could the tune have been borrowed at that time? (From
either direction?)
Best-
Ed Britt
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