c. 1550-1625
Abby Sale
Today's my day to send out the Central Florida monthly folk news, "Folking
Around." The Orlando library puts on a small, good music bit Fridays at
noon, some of which are folk or "folk." (The artists aren't paid but then,
there's no charge to the public. My essence will not permit me to work for
the County for free [without duress] and last time I demanded and received
free parking for the event and a glass of good water.]
I've had no notice of January's events and their website has been bare but I
checked it "just in case" late last night - selecting January, All & Music
at www.ocls.info/Events/EventsCalendar.asp I was very much surprised to see:
=======
30 January, 2005 ( Sunday )
Main Library
2:00 pm - 3:00 pm
An Elizabethan Musical Tribute
Traditional music performers Tom COok and Abbey Sale present songs from
England and Ireland from the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods (c.
1550-1625). These ballads are some of the earliest examples of modern
European music.
=======
So, if this is true, I have to come up with, say four or five songs from the
period _that I know._ Sadly, Lang a-Growing appears at least a decade too
late if you accept that he was Craigstoun. And I don't find any early Earl
of Murray.
I'm sure I don't sing any with tunes or style of that era (I don't & won't
sing Greensleeves.) But for the period, off hand, I can come up with:
Froggie Went a-Courting (1580)
High Barbary (1590 or so?)
Fair Flower of Northumberland (1596?)
King John and the Bishop (earlier than 1689?)
Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
Martin Said To His Man (1609)
? I don't file Songs I Know by date.
Any advice much appreciated.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
David Rintoul
It Was a Lover and His Lass (Thomas Morley, 1557 - 1602)
Sigh No More, Ladies (William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616)
The Willow Song (William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616)
Author of Light (Thomas Compton, 1567 - 1620)
So Beauty on the Waters Stood (Alfonso Ferabosco, 1578 - 1628)
When Laura Smiles (Philip Rosseter, 1568 - 1623)
In Darkness Let Me Dwell (John Dowland, 1563 - 1626)
Wandering In This Place (Michael Cavendish 1565 - 1628)
Mark How the Blushful Morn (Nicholas Lanier 1588 - 1666)
Come Again (John Dowland, 1562 - 1626)
Come, Sorrow, Come (Thomas Morley 1557 - 1602)
It Fell on a Summer's Day (Thomas Campian 1567 - 1620)
I Saw My Lady Weep (John Dowland 1562 - 1626)
Sleep Wayward Thoughts (John Dowland 1562 - 1626)
What Then Is Love But Mourning (Phillip Rosseter 1575 - 1623)
Now, some people are going to tell me that these are Art Songs, rather than
Folk Songs. Others are going to say that they can't be folk songs by
definition (their personal, private, definition, of course) because we know
who wrote them and when. But, that doesn't bother me. Art songs end up in
the folk process all the time. And, anyway, every song was written by
somebody sometime. You can't define folk music. That's my story and I'm
sticking to it.
You can hear some of these songs, among many others, on Julianne Baird's
album "Greensleeves, A Collection of English Lute Songs" on the Dorian
Label, catalogue number DOR-90126.
There's also a great songbook for these kinds of songs. It's Frederick M.
Noad's "The New Guitar Songbook: Five Centuries of Songs in Arrangements
Transcribed Especially for the Guitar", Amsco Publications, New York, 1985,
Order Number FN10032, ISBN 0.8256.1309.4
By the way, there used to be a busker who played the recorder at the
Medieval Festival around here. He charged double if someone requested
Greensleeves. There's lots more great songs from that era to choose from.
Hope this helps!
--
David Rintoul
http://www.soundclick.com/paperrockscissors
"Songwriting is like fishing in a stream. You put in your line and hope you
catch something."
Arlo Guthrie
"Abby Sale" <NO_SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote in message
news:ldils0d9emiiv9432...@4ax.com...
Harold Groot
<NO_SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>
>Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
Yes, they are variants of the same song. The copy I use notes that it
dates "at least as far back as 1611", so they apparently have some
reason to suspect it may go back even further.
Abby Sale
wrote:
:) Sorry, I meant is it just too far away from it to claim as "same song?"
Abby Sale
<david....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Drink to Me Only With Thine Eyes (Ben Johnson, 1616)
>It Was a Lover and His Lass (Thomas Morley, 1557 - 1602)
>Sigh No More, Ladies (William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616)
>The Willow Song (William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616)
>Author of Light (Thomas Compton, 1567 - 1620)
>So Beauty on the Waters Stood (Alfonso Ferabosco, 1578 - 1628)
>When Laura Smiles (Philip Rosseter, 1568 - 1623)
>In Darkness Let Me Dwell (John Dowland, 1563 - 1626)
>Wandering In This Place (Michael Cavendish 1565 - 1628)
>Mark How the Blushful Morn (Nicholas Lanier 1588 - 1666)
>Come Again (John Dowland, 1562 - 1626)
>Come, Sorrow, Come (Thomas Morley 1557 - 1602)
>It Fell on a Summer's Day (Thomas Campian 1567 - 1620)
>I Saw My Lady Weep (John Dowland 1562 - 1626)
>Sleep Wayward Thoughts (John Dowland 1562 - 1626)
>What Then Is Love But Mourning (Phillip Rosseter 1575 - 1623)
I thank you for all the material.
>
>Now, some people are going to tell me that these are Art Songs, rather than
>Folk Songs. Others are going to say that they can't be folk songs by
>definition (their personal, private, definition, of course) because we know
>who wrote them and when. But, that doesn't bother me. Art songs end up in
>the folk process all the time. And, anyway, every song was written by
>somebody sometime. You can't define folk music. That's my story and I'm
>sticking to it.
:-) Well, I'd certainly say they're Art songs and, but for one I recognize
right off, not in folk tradition. It's a different tradition - handled &
sung & used in a different way. Mostly. Actually, these are the songs type
the library advertised but I don't do. For one I don't have the voice
training or experience in it. For another, it's not my preference.
I'll explain - if not interested, skip this part. Some songs are in both
traditions, some even with very similar texts. I'd think a number of source
singers could sing Art style. Certainly many can sing both "concert" style
and "home" style. I much prefer the intimacy and interactiveness of "home"
style. It's that sharing that goes a long way to making it a Folk song,
even if it's a recent pop song, much less an old anon. one.
Think of "Faithful Johnny." Written circa and first published 1818. It was
by a folklorist, Anne MacVicar Grant. It was published by Burns' main
publisher, George Thomson of Edinburgh. This was not a country song
collection, it was part of a very upscale tea-table set of Burns & other
folk & recent Scottish songs. Thompson hired several hack composers to do
the treatment & postludes on the simple folk tunes, this particular one was
done by a Ludwig something of Germany. It's a good song and went into folk
tradition in Scotland. (Maybe Mrs MacVicar taught it to some of her
sources.) Ludwig kept the treatment and used it in several works, notably a
"Scottish Symphony." I wonder if he retained that right in his contract or
if he just stole it. I've tried hard but haven't seen the original Thompson
publication - there are 8 or so volumes & inter-library loan kept sending
the wrong ones - so I'm not sure which are the original words or which may
have been back-translated. Anyway, because of the good treatment, the song
was retained in Art and Leider traditions as well, both in German and
English.
So now you can hear nearly identical words, finely sung as folk or Lieder.
I prefer the former, even when the latter is superbly done (eg Wolfgang
Holzmair.) One of my favorite singers, Richard Dyer-Bennett, blows it, I
think, trying to do it as an art song.
That's what I think.
>
>You can hear some of these songs, among many others, on Julianne Baird's
>album "Greensleeves, A Collection of English Lute Songs" on the Dorian
>Label, catalogue number DOR-90126.
I'll look that up.
>
>By the way, there used to be a busker who played the recorder at the
>Medieval Festival around here. He charged double if someone requested
>Greensleeves. There's lots more great songs from that era to choose from.
>
Good on him!
David Rintoul
Actually, these are the songs type the library advertised but I don't do.
For one I don't have the voice
training or experience in it.
---------
Well, anyway, why not give the songs I mentioned a listen, or a try, and see
if any of them appeal to you. Maybe you can put your own interpretation on
them. The same song can be arranged in a lot of different ways. You never
know.
-----------
For another, it's not my preference.
------------
To each his own, as the cowboy said when he kissed his horse. I had a funny
musical upbringing. I was born on a farm, but both of my parents were also
classically trained musicians. My Dad studied voice at the Royal
Conservatory of Music, led the local church choir and also sang at barn
dances. We were a musical family and our household mixed art, sacred,
popular, and folk music together all the time. I guess that's why I've
ended up with such eclectic (some would say indiscriminate) musical tastes.
I get the strangest looks in record shops, not because of the records I
choose, but because of the combinations I bring up to the counter. As Bob
Dylan says in his new book Chronicles, "I never looked at songs as either
'good' or 'bad', only different kinds of good ones."
Hope this helps, and all the best for the holidays.
--
David Rintoul
http://www.soundclick.com/paperrockscissors
"Songwriting is like fishing in a stream. You put in your line and hope you
catch something."
Arlo Guthrie
>
Peanutjake
Abby Sale <NO_SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote
> Think of "Faithful Johnny." Written circa and first published 1818. It
was
> by a folklorist, Anne MacVicar Grant. It was published by Burns' main
> publisher, George Thomson of Edinburgh. This was not a country song
> collection, it was part of a very upscale tea-table set of Burns & other
> folk & recent Scottish songs. Thompson hired several hack composers to do
So if we know that "Faithful Johnny" was written by Anne MacVicar Grant then
it is clearly not a Folk Song.
If you know who wrote it,
It ain't Folk.
PJ
Alex Bell
<NO_SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:17:00 GMT, que...@infionline.net (Harold Groot)
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:23:04 -0500, Abby Sale
>><NO_SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
>>
>>Yes, they are variants of the same song. The copy I use notes that it
>>dates "at least as far back as 1611", so they apparently have some
>>reason to suspect it may go back even further.
>
>:) Sorry, I meant is it just too far away from it to claim as "same song?"
>
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
> I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
May I jump in a little late?
I recently joined this group to find more information on the Three
Ravens after finding thousands of hits on Google - many more than I
have time to check. I'm looking for a version of the music I can
play on my oboe.
Could you tell me please where one would go on the internet to find
the music for early folk songs? The Mudcat Cafe I know is a good
source; are there others you would recommend? What books would you
recommend?
Where would one go to find material on the history or development of
early ballads? There is mention of early and modern versions of the
the Three Ravens above.
Regards, Alex
David Rintoul
> So if we know that "Faithful Johnny" was written by Anne MacVicar Grant
> then
> it is clearly not a Folk Song.
>
> If you know who wrote it,
> It ain't Folk.
-----------
"It is now recognized that folksongs, like art songs, have an author, even
though anonymous, and are not 'communally' created, though the community has
a role in adopting or rejecting songs. It is also recognized that not all
songs are ancient, and that folk repertories are constantly changing.
Change may be spontaneous (innovation) or stimulated by contact with another
group of people (acculturation); new songs are composed, and old ones
discarded or put to new uses; modes, scales, and rhythms may be changed.
There is still interest in tracing melodies back to an archaic layer,
particularly in Eastern Europe, but field workers today have come to focus
on the self-identification of the folksinger and the singer's perhaps
changing repertory, rather than, as in the early 20th century, on material
useful only for some ulterior purpose of the collector."
The Oxford Companion to Music.
You can't define folk music. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Abby Sale
>>>>
>>>>Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
>>>
Depends whom you land on. For certain people, it's ok.
>
>I recently joined this group to find more information on the Three
>Ravens after finding thousands of hits on Google - many more than I
>have time to check. I'm looking for a version of the music I can
>play on my oboe.
>
>Could you tell me please where one would go on the internet to find
>the music for early folk songs? The Mudcat Cafe I know is a good
>source; are there others you would recommend? What books would you
>recommend?
There are now vast numbers of sites. For real early (pre 1650), as this
thread requested, there are fewer. You get back to where there are many
songs but few tunes. I believe Ravenscroft was the first to print many
tunes and these are in somewhat archaic notation. For that, go to
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ravenscroft/ (The Music of Thomas
Ravenscroft). If you follow all the links you'll stay busy a while.
Do read the page headings, though; many of the tunes listed are modern
ones to old songs. If that's what you want, it's still a good site but
there are many more. Once you finish Ravenscroft, you might want to play
at Contemplator, http://www.contemplator.com, one of the very best
over-all sites there could be and extremely reliably in the notes.
Books is Bronson. AUTHOR: Bronson, Bertrand Harris, 1902-1986 ed.
TITLE: The traditional tunes of the Child ballads; with their texts,
according to the extant records of Great Britain and America.
PUB. INFO: Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press, 1959-72.
You can't buy it for less than $1,000,000 but you can get it from
inter-library loan.
Re Corbies, I saved an old thread. The modern tune should go very well
with oboe but I don't see how you can sing it simultaneously.
>Subject: Re: Twa Corbies (was: Rannerdine?)
>Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 22:39:11 -0800
>From: argo...@lanset.com (Argouarch)
>
>In article <56...@purr.demon.co.uk>, bo...@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address)
>wrote:
>
>An Alarc'h was first recorded in a written form by Theodore Hersart de la
>Villwarque an published in 1867 in his Barzhaz Breizh (Bardic Records from
>Brittany_
>
>From the author of this collection, this is an epic song about the Duke of
>Brittany Jean IV, who had taken refuge in England during the first attempt
>from France to seize then independent Duchy of Brittany (during the One
>Hundred Year War)
>
>Called back home by everyone, he landed (as a sea swan, an alarc'h) in
>1379 and kicked the French out.
>
>Philippe
>>
>>
>> The one everybody uses these days in Scotland was put to it in the late
>> 1970s, I think by the singer/banjo-player John Greig (somebody I don't
>> see around much any more, dunno what he's up to). He simply used the
>> somewhat English-sounding Breton ballad tune "An Alarh" ("The Swan"),
>> with hardly a note changed.
>>
>> X:1
>> T:An Alarh
>> S:Kendalc'h, "Kanomp Uhel", 1977
>> N:source referenced to "Barzaz Breiz", I haven't looked there.
>> Z:Jack Campin, Feb 2000
>> M:2/4
>> % But some bars are extended to 3/4.
>> L:1/8
>> Q:Tempo di marcia % Yeah, ABC doesn't understand that.
>> % Tough titty, it's what the book says.
>> K:A minor % dorian/minor hexatonic
>> % each line of ABC corresponds to a line of ballad text
>> E|ABcz |A2 GGA
>> E|ABcz |A2 GGA
>> c|cde>e |d>c (c2|B4) |
>> ABcB/A/|AG/G/Az|E2 z2|
>> ABcB/A/|AG A2|]
>>
The notation is "ABC." Likely there's more at Contemplator or Craig
Cockburn's Music pages or see the midi at
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/per.kentel/alarc_h1.htm
>
>Where would one go to find material on the history or development of
>early ballads?
I think one would have to go to a major library & play in Dewey section
784.4. There's lots.
>There is mention of early and modern versions of the
>the Three Ravens above.
>
Bronson for the early one but it's unsingable. That's why none sang this
much until the late 60's (not 70's).
Enjoy.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Boycott South Carolina!
http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml
David Rintoul
Where would one go to find material on the history or development of
early ballads? There is mention of early and modern versions of the
the Three Ravens above.
----------
The new version of Francis James Child's "The English and Scottish Popular
Ballads" from Loomis House Press includes some (I repeat "some") melodies in
the body of the text. These are either tunes that Child cited from other
manuscripts in his original work or tunes that Bronson collected in "The
Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads". They've even gone to the trouble
of inserting the text into the melodies as best they could. They also throw
in a biography of Child and a great essay he wrote called "Ballad Poetry" as
a new introduction to the set. These new additions give you some idea of
Child's approach to collecting ballads back in the 19th century.
The Loomis House Press edition of Child is pretty affordable. You can get
paperback copies of Volumes I and II for about $25 USD each. The other
three volumes are still in production. I guess the more we support them by
buying Volumes I and II, the sooner they'll be able to release Volume III.
Don't get your hopes up too high. Even this new version of Child is pretty
heavy on the text and light on the notes. Even so, Loomis House has done a
great job in bringing the music and the lyrics together where they felt they
could and should. I think we should all encourage them to finish off a very
worthwhile project.
Here's a link to them...
http://www.loomishousepress.com/
Hope this helps!
Abby Sale
>
>Bronson for the early one but it's unsingable. That's why none sang this much until the >late 60's (not 70's).
I forgot. I did up a tune from Bronson some seven years ago in Qbasic. I
sent it up to DigTrad but I guess there were already 4 versions in there &
it didn't need another.
It's not unsingable, just boring.
Don't be concerned if you can't make anything of the following, few people
have Qbasic on their computers any more.
'
ON KEY(7) GOSUB 3000: KEY(7) ON
f$ = CHR$(34)
CLS
PRINT "Type <F7> for abortion"
PRINT : PRINT f$; "The Twa Corbies"; f$
PRINT : PRINT "(from BH Bronson, _Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads_,
#26,9)"
PLAY "O2 L8 MF T90 mn"
PLAY "mfp16p2p2p2"
' key = 4 flats; 12/8 (But transposed I think, to natural & 6/8)
LOCATE 1, 1: PRINT STRING$(22, " ")
LOCATE 5, 1: PRINT STRING$(66, " ")
LOCATE 6, 1
PRINT "As I was walk-ing all a-lane"
' /-downbeat /
PLAY " g g4 b >d4 d e4 d mld16 mn<b."
PRINT "I heard twa cor-bies mak-in' mane,"
' / /
PLAY " b >d4 c <a4 a >c4 <b mlb16 mng."
PRINT "The tane un-to the ti-ther say,"
' / /
PLAY " g g4 b >d4 d e4 d mld16 mn<b."
PRINT f$; "Whare sall we gang and dine the day?"; f$
' / /
PLAY " b >d4 c <a4 a >c4 <b g4."
PRINT "The tane unto the ti-ther say,"
' / /
PLAY " g4 b >d4 d e4 d mldmn<b4"
PRINT f$; "Where sall we gang and dine the day?"; f$;
' / /
PLAY " >d4 c <a4 a >c4 <b mlbmng"
PRINT
3000 '
' ***********************************************
Text from Scott's _Minstrelsy_,
Tune from George Eyre-Todd, _Ancient Scots Ballads_
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Alex Bell
<NO_SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:17:00 GMT, que...@infionline.net (Harold Groot)
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:23:04 -0500, Abby Sale
>><NO_SPA...@ft.newyorklife.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
>>
>>Yes, they are variants of the same song. The copy I use notes that it
>>dates "at least as far back as 1611", so they apparently have some
>>reason to suspect it may go back even further.
>
>:) Sorry, I meant is it just too far away from it to claim as "same song?"
>
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
> I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Many thanks, Abby and David. You's given me a lot to explore.
Regards, Alex