Info wanted on "The Cruel Sister"
Jim Brewster
I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two Sisters"), in
which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels in
the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially a
translation of the refrain:
"Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
TIA,
Jim
TA
On the Pentangle recording entitled "Cruel Sister", the line reads "Lay
the bent to the bonnie broom"...and I have absolutely no clue as to what
this means! =)
terri
ps - Just looked it up in a folk book and there weren't any definitions,
however another version using the phrase "Bow an balance to me" is used
in it's place. Does this mean (I'm really guessing here) to display
humble respect?
Sean Smith
In article <jmb31-05119...@132.236.156.94>, jm...@cornell.edu (Jim
Brewster) wrote:
> I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two Sisters"), in
> which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels in
> the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
> drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
>
> I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
> interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially a
> translation of the refrain:
>
> "Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
"Broom" is a shrubby type of plant with yellow flowers found in Western
Europe -- I wonder, therefore, if the phrase has something to do with
cultivating or picking the flowers?
As for the song itself, one line of thinking posits it as the classic
good-vs.-evil struggle: in many versions, one sister is described as
"dark," the other as "light." But instead of being revived to her former
state and vanquishing her opponent -- a classic motif in early ballads,
and in mummers plays and the like -- the "good" sister is transformed into
something else, and her victory over the "bad" sister is more a triumph of
truth in that her music drives the sister to confess to the deed a la "The
Telltale Heart." Some versions go beyond the sister's confession, when
she asks what the "judgment on me will be," and is given a rather nasty
itinerary (seven years worn and pale, seven years a fish in the flood,
etc.) -- these verses are also found in versions of "The Cruel Mother."
Don't know if that's of any aid to you but...
Sean Smith
smt...@bcvms.bc.edu
Because some things can't be helped: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6504; now featuring
"Daze and Quirks"--self-indulgent tripe masquerading as literary pretension!
**"Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book."
--Cicero**
mbr
In article <jmb31-05119...@132.236.156.94>,
Jim Brewster <jm...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two Sisters"), in
>which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels in
>the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
>drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
>
>I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
>interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially a
>translation of the refrain:
>
>"Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the line is: "Lay the ben tae
the bonnie broom". And if I'm not mistaken, "ben" is Scots dialect
for "baby".
Pentangle did a wonderful rendition of this in the '60s. I forget the
name of the album.
--
Mark of the Valley of Roses
m...@gte.com
Ramsa
TA wrote:
>
> Jim Brewster wrote:
> > I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two > > Sisters"), in which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some > > bards (minstrels in the song, but they seem more like bards to me) > > make a harp from the drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp > > magically plays on its own. I would be interested in any historical > > background, opinions, or interpretations that I could use in > > presenting the song, and especially a translation of the refrain:
> > "Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
> >
Ramsa adds 2-cents' worth:
A "lay" is a song; "lay" as a verb meant to put something to or against
something else. "Bend" or "bent" implies curving something, like grasses
or withies, and "broom" is a kind of grass with a woody stalk. It sounds
to me like this might have been describing the formation of the harp --
the breastbone would give the straight side, the bent broom the curved.
This might even have started out as a teaching song for harp-craftsmen.
Just a thought --- maybe I have read too much of the Dragonriders'
series.
Ramsa
TA
I meant to type "Bow AND balance". (not "an").
ta
Joe Bethancourt
TA <fo...@primenet.com> wrote:
: I meant to type "Bow AND balance". (not "an").
The phrase "bow and balance to me" is an interpolation from dance calls.
--
lock...@locksley.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069
"Do not ascribe your own motivations to others. At best,
it will break your heart, at worst, get you dead."
song lyrics and much more at mac9.ucc.nau.edu /pub/Misc/SCA/Ioseph
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ALL unsolicited e-mail advertising is deleted unread.
anuna
mbr <m...@poitin.gte.com> wrote in article <55r2oj$j...@news.gte.com>...
> In article <jmb31-05119...@132.236.156.94>,
> Jim Brewster <jm...@cornell.edu> wrote:
> >I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two Sisters"),
in
> >which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels
in
> >the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
> >drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
> >
> >I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
> >interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially
a
> >translation of the refrain:
> >
> >"Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
Clannad have a version of this on Dúlamán - entitled Two Sisters, with a
far more comical topic - Cruel Sister is great - but I feel that the core
of this song isn't that old, maybe only 2 to 300 years. The phtase is
probably nonsensical, but if anyone knows more about this let me know
please, as I intended (coincidentally) setting it,
Michael McGlynn
Paul E. Ross
Sean Smith wrote:
>
> In article <jmb31-05119...@132.236.156.94>, jm...@cornell.edu (Jim
> Brewster) wrote:
>
> >
> > "Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
>
> Europe -- I wonder, therefore, if the phrase has something to do with
> cultivating or picking the flowers?
>
>
Hmmmmmmmmmmm! The Old Blind Dogs have it as
Lay the *bairn* tae the bonnie broom.
I have no idea about the historical accuracy of either phrase, but IMHO
the latter makes a lot more sense since it even fits with the story of
the song.
--
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Martin K. Jones
In article <01bbcc42$ca4a5ec0$7429...@anuna.iol.ie>, "anuna" <an...@iol.ie> writes:
|>mbr <m...@poitin.gte.com> wrote in article <55r2oj$j...@news.gte.com>...
|>> In article <jmb31-05119...@132.236.156.94>,
|>> Jim Brewster <jm...@cornell.edu> wrote:
|>> >I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two Sisters"),
|>in
|>> >which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels
|>in
|>> >the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
|>> >drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
|>> >
|>> >I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
|>> >interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially
|>a
|>> >translation of the refrain:
|>> >
|>> >"Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
|>
|>Clannad have a version of this on Dúlamán - entitled Two Sisters, with a
|>far more comical topic - Cruel Sister is great - but I feel that the core
|>of this song isn't that old, maybe only 2 to 300 years. The phtase is
|>probably nonsensical, but if anyone knows more about this let me know
|>please, as I intended (coincidentally) setting it,
|>
You know, I just always thought that that lyric was exactly what it
said: Push hard on the broom. I imagined that this was a song to be
sung while sweeping out the house...
--
Martin K. Jones
MAR...@ARU.DOM.UAB.EDU
Scott C DeLancey
In article <328025...@primenet.com>, TA <fo...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jim Brewster wrote:
>>
>> I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
>> interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially a
>> translation of the refrain:
>>
>> "Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
>
>the bent to the bonnie broom"...and I have absolutely no clue as to what
>this means! =)
"Bent" is a kind of grass. "Broom" is a shrub. Bromm was used to
make brooms (that's why they're called "brooms"), and I think bent
may have been also.
Usually when you find plants mentioned like this in old songs there's
an implied reference to their herbal and/or magical properties.
Broom was considered a soporific (if you know the song "Broomfield
Hill", the name of the hill isn't just coincidental). I don't
know about bent, but my fiddler says she's read that bent and
broom together made a charm to ward off malicious magic--which
wouldn't fit too badly with the song.
This ballad is found in dozens of versions, with lots of
different refrain lines ("bent/broom", "by the bonnie bows of
London", "Oh the dreadful wind and rain", etc.) Folklorists
invest lots of energy in sorting out versions by their
refrain lines.
Scott DeLancey
Gerry Sullivan
> > which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels in
> > the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
> > drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
> >
> > interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially a
> > translation of the refrain:
> >
> > "Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
> >
> > Jim
>
>
> On the Pentangle recording entitled "Cruel Sister", the line reads "Lay
> the bent to the bonnie broom"...and I have absolutely no clue as to what
> this means! =)
>
On the Old Blind Dog's excellent second album, I believe the chorus is sung as "Lay the bairn tae the bonnie broom" which I would take to mean put the child to bed........but that's a (fanciful) guess! I suspect the line is not meant to mean anything particular but metres appropriately in the song.
Gerry Sullivan
Pro Sound Services
Phone/Fax : +44 (0)141 422 1944
I'd like to say something clever, so if any of the above makes sense I will
have achieved my ambition!!
Henry Ford
Bent is a common name for a group of meadow grasses. Grasses
were commonly used as floor coverings in halls as one of them
though not one of the bents as it happens, smells sweetly of
coumarin.
Laying the bent to the bonny broom possibly refers to the
daily task of sweeping out the hall in the morning
Henry Ford
Anne B. Nonie Rider
I once saw a listing of various burden lines for this
song, and there are twenty or thirty--most of them
variants on the "bonnie broom" or "bow and balance"
ones, but not all.
Seems like it's got more variety than any burden
except "Savory, sage, rosemary and thyme" (my
favorite variant: "Let us all grow merry in time."
What always intrigued me most, though, was the
SECOND burden line to the "bow and balance" version,
which is "I'll be true to my love, if my love will
be true to me."
Now, that's got absolutely nothing to do with the song,
which is about a sister's jealousy rather than a lover's
faithfulness or betrayal.
--Nonie, briefly bipping through
A.J. Davis
Hi,
The song is also known as a folk 'myth' (like 'Outlandish
Knight' which is part of the Halewijn cycle). It comes with
a variety of interlined 'choruses' like 'lay the bent to the
bonny broom', 'bow down, bow down' which are frequently
taken to indicate an early connection with dance (Ballad and
Ballet are more than phonologically related).
'lay the bent to the bonny broom' - and it *is* bent (and
'ben' is not scots dialect for baby) suggests 'lay to - or
take to - the bent' meaning to run off to (bent is a rough
grass or an area growing such)and 'bonny broom' which
old ballad commentators tended to coyly refer to as being a
euphemism for a 'illicit encounter' (gathering broom (the
plant) like gathering rushes appears to have offered such
chances for getting your man that the very mention of the
plant was emblematic of it).
'bow down' chorus lines are usually interpreted as being
part of the dance itself.
I'd caution specifically, however, against assuming that
songs have consistant meanings or that every phrase has a
specific meaning.
Andrew
Andrew Davis
University of Leeds, Yorkshire
England, LS2 9JT UK
a.j....@uk.ac.leeds
ian@ifbobds
" Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom " should read lay the " bairn " tae
the bonnie broom " I take it to mean that the " bairn " ( Scots for baby
or child ) should be buried. I too learned this song from the Pentangle
version and being Scots had no problem hearing the word bairn. I have no
historical background for the song but my version can be heard on Old
Blind Dogs " Close to the Bone " CD. One of the replies in the newsgroup
mentioned " ben " as Scots for baby. Ben in Scots means ( loosely as it
is Scots Gaelic and I don`t speak the language ) mountain. Hope this is
of some help.
ian@ifbobds
Ton Maas
In article <01bbcc42$ca4a5ec0$7429...@anuna.iol.ie>,
"anuna" <an...@iol.ie> wrote:
>far more comical topic - Cruel Sister is great - but I feel that the core
>of this song isn't that old, maybe only 2 to 300 years.
That's not at all unusual. As recent linguistic research has shown, the
lifespan of fairy tales and folksongs is probably not much longer than
around three hundred years on average. Although the famous Grimm brothers
*thought* they were recording the last remnants of a dying folk-lore, those
stories were actually in the middle of their formation process, which
started maybe fifty or one hundred years before.
Ton Maas, Amsterdam NL
Frank Hamilton
nri...@us.oracle.com (Anne B. "Nonie" Rider) wrote:
>I once saw a listing of various burden lines for this
>song, and there are twenty or thirty--most of them
>variants on the "bonnie broom" or "bow and balance"
>ones, but not all.
>What always intrigued me most, though, was the
>SECOND burden line to the "bow and balance" version,
>which is "I'll be true to my love, if my love will
>be true to me."
>Now, that's got absolutely nothing to do with the song,
>which is about a sister's jealousy rather than a lover's
>faithfulness or betrayal.
It might be interesting to speculate on a little "fakelore", here.
The twa sisters of the Binorie ballad are fighting over a man, as I
remember. His fidelity may be in question. Many of the Appalachian
ballad songs have to do with moral admonitions. Even the most grizzly
(spelling?) seem to offer a moral exhortation at the end of the song
indicative of the quasi-religiosity of the Anglo-American tradition.
A sort of do-right-or-you'll-be-punished,-too added to the song. The
theme might have been interpreted as the price one pays for
infidelity.
Frank
Bunny and/or Roy
Martin K. Jones (mar...@aru.dom.uab.edu) wrote:
: You know, I just always thought that that lyric was exactly what it
: said: Push hard on the broom. I imagined that this was a song to be
: sung while sweeping out the house...
: --
: Martin K. Jones
: MAR...@ARU.DOM.UAB.EDU
The simplest conclusion might well be the most correct. I spent some
time looking through the OED and found that "bent" is a noun one of
whose meanings is "a curve." One of the many meanings of "lay" is "to
apply." My guess is that the Pentangle version of the song was sung
as a household worksong. The pace and the rhythm and the short verses
and refrain are similar to a "short drag" chantey, and would do well
accompany a job like sweeping.
Roy
--
"Papa Hegel he say that all we learn from history is that we learn nothing
from history. *I* know people who can't even learn from what happened this
morning. Hegel must have been taking the long view."
(John Brunner, "Stand on Zanzibar")
Henrik Norbeck
"The Two Sisters" or "The Cruel Sister" appears in many versions both
in the British Isles and in Scandinavia. I don't know if it exists in
any other European countries, but I would suspect so.
I know a Swedish version with lots of verses (26 I think), and the
usual theme:
The two sisters (one dark and one fair) go down to the lake, the dark
one pushes the fair one in, she begs for help and then drowns, is
picked up from the water by a minstrel who makes a harp from her, then
goes to play at the evil sister's wedding, where the harp tells the
truth about the evil sister.
Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden
henrik....@mailbox.swipnet.se
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1789/ Irish & Swedish Tunebook
Abby Sale
On 8 Nov 1996 23:11:29 GMT, nri...@us.oracle.com (Anne B. "Nonie" Rider)
wrote:
>What always intrigued me most, though, was the
>SECOND burden line to the "bow and balance" version,
>which is "I'll be true to my love, if my love will
>be true to me."
>
Good point & true, of course. This kind of says to me not to make too
much of these things. Incursions from other songs, "zersungen"
mondegreens & genuine nonesense are common enough. It's not _required_ to
make word-for-word literal sense.
Kenny Goldstein told a story of collecting from Lizzie Higgins, (? I
think) that she sang a once-Gaelic song with the refrain "zersung" into
"Aye, here comes a Russian Jew." THis had zero meaning to the song. It
happened that Goldstein was able to quote for her the original Gaelic
words, sounding very similar to the above but (once translated) well
within the context of the song. Lizzie admitted this made sense,
acknowledged her song was a translation from the Gaelic, but continued to
sing it her own way 'cause that's the way she learned it.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
I am Abby Sale - abby...@orlinter.com (That's in Orlando)
And I quote:
"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
Vice President Dan Quayle to Sam Donaldson, 8/17/89
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
Dr John Barrow
Jim Brewster (jm...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two Sisters"), in
: which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels in
: the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
: drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
: I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
: interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially a
: translation of the refrain:
: "Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
: TIA,
: Jim
I'm amazed - there are 14 posts in this thread (so far) and not one has
mentioned the Child collection yet! Doesn't anyone read any more?
The Twa Sisters is Child 10 and runs through versions A - U (inc). None
have the refrain referred to or any remotely like it. Rather you'll find,
for example, "Binnorie, O Binnorie", "Edinbruch, Edinbruch", "Hey with a
gay and a grinding O", "Bow down, bow down, bow down" - or versions thereof
- as the second line of the stanza.
The Cruel Sister is given as version C, taken from Scott's Minstrelsy
(1802) and version B (Wm Tytler Brown's MS). The former has the Binnorie
refrain and the latter, the Edinbruch refrain.
Child also refers to numerous Scandinavian versions of the ballad in all
the Scandinavian countries (inc Iceland and The Faroes) plus Finland.
The breast-bone harp-frame occurs in version C (which allusion Child refers
to as one of some "infelicitous additions") and there are some eight pages of
analysis of the various literary devices and themes which appear in the song
throughout the Scandinavian and English-language versions.
"Lay the bent tae the bonny broom", is the second refrain from Child 1,
"Riddles Wisely Expounded" which is sometimes printed as "Lay The Bent Tae
The Bonny Broom" (Folk Tales of the North Country; F Grice; Nelson 1944).
This is emphatically "bent" and not "ben" nor "bairn" (I suspect Steeleye
Span's version to be inaccurate - although I haven't heard it; I have heard
many singers sing the song, including for example Jean Redpath - and "bairn"
it ain't).
A version of the song appears in Pills To Purge Melancholy published in 1719
and is probably the least "naughty" of all the songs in that collection (if
you want double entendre at a not very subtle level check out Pills). In
Child, he gives a transcript of the intro to the song as it appears in a
broadside version in the Rawlinson collection which states that the song is
sung to the tune of "Lay the bent to the bonny broom".
The song is of the classic riddle-story genre with somebody setting riddles
and someone of the opposite sex guessing the answers with various results -
like getting married to the questioner, for example. Child mentions a
related Irish song (Fionn's Questions) going back to the 12th century.
"Bent" is coarse, tussocky reed-like grass; "broom" is a yellow-flowering
shrub which grows up on the moors and wild ground - sometimes mistaken for
gorse. In the south of Scotland (F Marian McNeill; Silver Bough; I), the
broom was the tree which the witches would use to ride on; they also used
thorn and ragweed for this - ie made a "broom" I s'pose.
Hope this helps.
jb
:-)
TA
Dr John Barrow wrote:
> snip
Doesn't anyone read any more?
>
NOPE. Way toooo busy eeking out a living, and arduously sweeping dirty
floors with old bent brooms!
ta.
Oz Childs
Dr John Barrow (j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Jim Brewster (jm...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: : I perform this popular Scots ballad (also known as "The Two Sisters"), in
: : which one sister drowns the other over a suitor, some bards (minstrels in
: : the song, but they seem more like bards to me) make a harp from the
: : drowned sister's breastbone, and the harp magically plays on its own.
:
: : I would be interested in any historical background, opinions, or
: : interpretations that I could use in presenting the song, and especially a
: : translation of the refrain:
:
: : "Lay the bend tae the bonnie broom"
:
: : TIA,
: : Jim
: "Lay the bent tae the bonny broom", is the second refrain from Child 1,
: "Riddles Wisely Expounded" which is sometimes printed as "Lay The Bent Tae
: The Bonny Broom" (Folk Tales of the North Country; F Grice; Nelson 1944).
: This is emphatically "bent" and not "ben" nor "bairn" (I suspect Steeleye
: Span's version to be inaccurate - although I haven't heard it; I have heard
: many singers sing the song, including for example Jean Redpath - and "bairn"
: it ain't).
: "Bent" is coarse, tussocky reed-like grass; "broom" is a yellow-flowering
: shrub which grows up on the moors and wild ground - sometimes mistaken for
: gorse. In the south of Scotland (F Marian McNeill; Silver Bough; I), the
: broom was the tree which the witches would use to ride on; they also used
: thorn and ragweed for this - ie made a "broom" I s'pose.
:
: Hope this helps.
:
: jb
: :-)
:
True. However, I interpret "lay the bent tae the bonny broom" as being a
description of the process of manufacturing broom "buzzems" -- i.e.,
household brooms. The phrase is of no particular significance to the
song -- like "bow and balance to me", it is an interpolation, borrowed
from other songs with the same refrain.
Brooms were once hand-made, and invariably sold by travelling
broom-sellers, who (if female) often seem to have had romantic
adventures, if some songs are true! (see "The Lish Young Buy-a-broom").
I suppose most of them were male, though, and like most folks who travel
from place to place on foot, amused themselves by singing songs, which of
course they would teach to those who wanted to hear. And one song, I
surmise, was the one the broom-sellers sang when making their brooms --
"lay the bent tae the bonny broom".
So much for speculation. One fact a lot of people have missed is that
"ben" (which is not the word in the song) is most commonly used in
Scotland to refer to the inner room of a house, or to "inside" in general
-- "Will ye come ben" means, "will you come inside". The outer room is
called "but", and a two-room cottage is a "but and ben".
One of the finest versions of the "Two Sisters" song, BTW, was recorded
by Jody Stecher, using the refrain "Oh the dreadful wind and rain", which
also provided the title he used.
Scott C DeLancey
In article <AEAA460B...@asd-stat13-153.dial.xs4all.nl>,
Ton Maas <ton...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>That's not at all unusual. As recent linguistic research has shown, the
>lifespan of fairy tales and folksongs is probably not much longer than
>around three hundred years on average.
What research is that? I seem to have missed it. Anyway, there is a
significant number of Child ballads that are clearly older than that
by a century or two--most obviously those, like Geordie or The Earl
of Murray, that are based on datable historical events (16th century
for both of these).
> Although the famous Grimm brothers
>*thought* they were recording the last remnants of a dying folk-lore, those
>stories were actually in the middle of their formation process, which
>started maybe fifty or one hundred years before.
How could this possibly be demonstrated?
Scott DeLancey
Department of Linguistics
University of Oregon
Eugene, OR 97403, USA
dela...@darkwing.uoregon.edu
http://www.uoregon.edu/~delancey/prohp.html
George Hawes
nri...@us.oracle.com (Anne B. "Nonie" Rider) wrote:
>I once saw a listing of various burden lines for this
>song, and there are twenty or thirty--most of them
>variants on the "bonnie broom" or "bow and balance"
>ones, but not all.
>Seems like it's got more variety than any burden
>except "Savory, sage, rosemary and thyme" (my
>favorite variant: "Let us all grow merry in time."
>What always intrigued me most, though, was the
>SECOND burden line to the "bow and balance" version,
>which is "I'll be true to my love, if my love will
>be true to me."
>Now, that's got absolutely nothing to do with the song,
>which is about a sister's jealousy rather than a lover's
>faithfulness or betrayal.
Except, perhaps, when jealousy/rivalry in love is the motive
for the murder - as in a version on an early Clannad recording,
IIRC.
Regards
george
Kevin Sheils
TA wrote:
> however another version using the phrase "Bow an balance to me" is used
> in it's place. Does this mean (I'm really guessing here) to display
> humble respect?
Again guessing, but I've always assumed this to be a reference to dance
movements bow and balance, frequently at the start of a dance.
--
Kevin
-------------------------------------
My opinions, if opinions they are.
Not those of my employer.
-------------------------------------
Dr John Barrow
Scott C DeLancey (dela...@darkwing.uoregon.edu) wrote:
: In article <AEAA460B...@asd-stat13-153.dial.xs4all.nl>,
: Ton Maas <ton...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
: >
: >That's not at all unusual. As recent linguistic research has shown, the
: >lifespan of fairy tales and folksongs is probably not much longer than
: >around three hundred years on average.
: What research is that? I seem to have missed it. Anyway, there is a
: significant number of Child ballads that are clearly older than that
: by a century or two--most obviously those, like Geordie or The Earl
: of Murray, that are based on datable historical events (16th century
: for both of these).
: > Although the famous Grimm brothers
: >*thought* they were recording the last remnants of a dying folk-lore, those
: >stories were actually in the middle of their formation process, which
: >started maybe fifty or one hundred years before.
: How could this possibly be demonstrated?
yes, that's what I wondered too. Who measured the starting point?
jb
:-)
Dr John Barrow
Ton Maas
In article <567gsh$a...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>,
dela...@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Scott C DeLancey) wrote:
>In article <AEAA460B...@asd-stat13-153.dial.xs4all.nl>,
>Ton Maas <ton...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>>That's not at all unusual. As recent linguistic research has shown, the
>>lifespan of fairy tales and folksongs is probably not much longer than
>>around three hundred years on average.
>
>What research is that? I seem to have missed it. Anyway, there is a
>significant number of Child ballads that are clearly older than that
>by a century or two--most obviously those, like Geordie or The Earl
>of Murray, that are based on datable historical events (16th century
>for both of these).
The research was done by Dutch scientists. I don't have any references, but
one of our networks covered it in a rather nice documentary. If you would
contact them at <noorde...@vpro.nl> [that's the editing staff of the
program] I'm sure they have all the information.
Regards,
Ton Maas, Amsterdam NL
Dr John Barrow
Oz Childs (o...@sonic.net) wrote:
could be; why not ideed. But since the tune was known (according to Pills
To Purge Melancoly) in the early 1600s, I'm inclined to favour a more
magical meaning - perhaps witchery. Who knows. I don't :-)
: Brooms were once hand-made, and invariably sold by travelling
: broom-sellers, who (if female) often seem to have had romantic
: adventures, if some songs are true! (see "The Lish Young Buy-a-broom").
: I suppose most of them were male, though, and like most folks who travel
: from place to place on foot, amused themselves by singing songs, which of
: course they would teach to those who wanted to hear. And one song, I
: surmise, was the one the broom-sellers sang when making their brooms --
: "lay the bent tae the bonny broom".
In the Geordie song, "Buy Broom Buzzems" they seem to be made from heather -
"fine heather bred uns, better never grew" - rather than broom.
: So much for speculation.
indeed.
One fact a lot of people have missed is that
: "ben" (which is not the word in the song) is most commonly used in
: Scotland to refer to the inner room of a house, or to "inside" in general
: -- "Will ye come ben" means, "will you come inside". The outer room is
: called "but", and a two-room cottage is a "but and ben".
don't see the relevance to the thread really ;-)
: One of the finest versions of the "Two Sisters" song, BTW, was recorded
: by Jody Stecher, using the refrain "Oh the dreadful wind and rain", which
: also provided the title he used.
couldn't find that one in Child's published versions either - "Oh the
dreadful wind and rain" sounds like a line that really _needs_ music to make
it work somehow.
jb
:-)
Oz Childs
:
: : Brooms were once hand-made, and invariably sold by travelling
: : adventures, if some songs are true! (see "The Lish Young Buy-a-broom").
: : I suppose most of them were male, though, and like most folks who travel
: : from place to place on foot, amused themselves by singing songs, which of
: : course they would teach to those who wanted to hear. And one song, I
: : surmise, was the one the broom-sellers sang when making their brooms --
: : "lay the bent tae the bonny broom".
:
: In the Geordie song, "Buy Broom Buzzems" they seem to be made from heather -
: "fine heather bred uns, better never grew" - rather than broom.
The broom graas amang the heather, aa ken!
: : One of the finest versions of the "Two Sisters" song, BTW, was recorded
: : by Jody Stecher, using the refrain "Oh the dreadful wind and rain", which
: : also provided the title he used.
:
: couldn't find that one in Child's published versions either - "Oh the
: dreadful wind and rain" sounds like a line that really _needs_ music to make
: it work somehow.
:
: jb
: :-)
:
:
Jody's music is exceptionally good. He simply interpolates the refrain
throughout:
"He made fiddle pegs of her long finger bones
Oh the wind and rain
He made a fiddle bow of her long yellow hair
Oh the dreadful wind and rain"
(Like that, though I probably took that from separate verses).
It ends, of course, with,
"And the only tune that fiddle would play was
Oh the dreadful wind and rain".
A concept as old as the hills, but it works.
Abby Sale
On Wed, 13 Nov 96 03:30:08 GMT, Dr John Barrow <j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>
>: Brooms were once hand-made, and invariably sold by travelling
>: broom-sellers, who (if female) often seem to have had romantic
>: adventures, if some songs are true! (see "The Lish Young Buy-a-broom").
>
>"fine heather bred uns, better never grew" - rather than broom.
>
other plants that might have appropriate properties.
But as to the antiquity, I often saw street sweepers in Edinburgh using
besom brooms in the early 70's. And that's _19_ 70's. The things worked
better than straw, especially on the rough surface on a paved road.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abby...@orlinter.com (That's in Orlando)
And I quote:
Well, it looks as if the top part fell on the bottom part.
VP Dan Quayle Referring to the collapsed section of the
880 freeway after the San Francisco earthquake of 1989.
Lani Herrmann
I originally heard this version (the dreadful wind and rain) from the
autoharp virtuoso Kilby Snow (I think), who also recorded it on his
Folkways (?) lp. It probably wasn't in the original 'Child' but, I
think, is in Bronson. (Sorry, I'm not at home with the books to look
it up.)
As I recall, Snow's version omitted the two sisters and turned
it into a murder ballad:
Two lovers went a-fishin' on a hot summer's day
Oh, the wind and the rain,
Two lovers went a-fishin' on a hot summer's day,
A-cryin' the dreadful wind and rain....
I think the refrain line adds a great deal to the development
of dramatic tension in this song .... -- Aloha, Lani
<||> Lani Herrmann * graduate * School of Library and Information Studies
<||> la...@info.sims.Berkeley.edu * Univ. of California, Berkeley 94720-4600
<||> home: 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond, CA 94805-1905 * (510) 237-7360
Dr John Barrow
Abby Sale (abby...@orlinter.com) wrote:
: On Wed, 13 Nov 96 03:30:08 GMT, Dr John Barrow <j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk>
: wrote:
: >
: >: Brooms were once hand-made, and invariably sold by travelling
: >: broom-sellers, who (if female) often seem to have had romantic
: >: adventures, if some songs are true! (see "The Lish Young Buy-a-broom").
: >
: >In the Geordie song, "Buy Broom Buzzems" they seem to be made from heather -
: >"fine heather bred uns, better never grew" - rather than broom.
: >
: I gather a bessom might be made from broom or heather or birch or several
: other plants that might have appropriate properties.
: But as to the antiquity, I often saw street sweepers in Edinburgh using
: besom brooms in the early 70's. And that's _19_ 70's. The things worked
: better than straw, especially on the rough surface on a paved road.
Antiquity? We've got yin for sweeping the leaves off the grass - and recht
guid it is tae. And that's _19_96!
Antiquity!? I can remember when passenger aeroplanes had outside toilets.
jb
:-)
DownBelowJack
I play two versions of this song, which are so different in style and
melody that nobody ever notices when I follow one with the other. One I
got from a harpist friend, sounds like she got it from Pentangle's
recording, the other is Jody Stecher by way of Jerry Garcia, "Oh, the Wind
and Rain". I also know of Loreena McKinnott's version. Does anyone know of
other variations floating around out there?
-jon
Shez
In article <961115214...@folkmus.demon.co.uk>, Dr John Barrow
<j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk> writes
>: But as to the antiquity, I often saw street sweepers in Edinburgh using
>: besom brooms in the early 70's. And that's _19_ 70's. The things worked
>: better than straw, especially on the rough surface on a paved road.
>
>Antiquity? We've got yin for sweeping the leaves off the grass - and recht
>guid it is tae. And that's _19_96!
>
>Antiquity!? I can remember when passenger aeroplanes had outside toilets.
>
>jb
>:-)
>
>
They are wonderfull for sweeping old cobwebs down, and for sweeping up
leaves from the path and lawn, they also spread worm casts.
They have been used by me to chase the odd unwanted visitor such as a
heron by my ponds. and as a signal to my family of where the key is
hidden. wonderfull things are brooms.
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------
loki
In article <XsmnPHAL...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>, sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
says...
>>jb
>>:-)
I used one last night to chase the old 'possum from my garage (he just looked
at me, sighed and headed for the attic though).
I've got to figure out what to do about him.
Loki - who thought that moving back to the city would have gotten rid of such
problems
James S. Partridge
jkip...@reed.edu (DownBelowJack) wrote:
Old Blind Dogs do a version of this, with the refrain "Bring the
bairn tae the bonney broom." Very nice arrangement, too.
Jim.
Wayne Seymour
Yes, indeed. there are quite a few versions of this. I first read it in
my 9th grade literature book as "Binnorie, O Binnorie" Horton Braker
recorded a great version for folkways called "Bow and Balance", Clannad
first album has a great version (in English) (the title escapes now) with
the refrain"I'll be true to my love if my love will be true to me".
Pentagle has this as the title cut of their "Cruel Sister" lp.Madeline
McNeil recorded a version from the midwest with the refrain "Down by the
waters a-rollin'" There are many others I'm sure. The tunes vary
considerably, but most of the versions have one sister pushing the other
in the river because the oder sister's suitor has been paying too much
attention to the yonger. Older versions usually have the making of a
musical instrument (harp in British version, fiddle in American) of the
drowned sisters body part. In some more complete versions, the instrument
starts to play all by itself at the wedding party, identifying the older
sister as the murderer.