What's a Musgrave?
Mark White
I've been puzzled for some time about a reference to "the little
musgrave," a character who appears in one of Planxty's songs.
Unfortunately, I forget the name of the song right now, but it's about
a nobleman who leaves his wife while away on a trip, and the little
musgrave who then cuckolds her. The nobleman then kills the musgrave,
but not before he's arisen from the bed and puts on his clothes and
sword (I believe). Anyway, does anyone know what a musgrave *is*?
Bob Norton
It's a folk modified form of Mattie Groves, which is the usual name of the
song. Little Musgrave is one of many sound-alike variants.
In article <31DBAD...@rcs1.urz.tu-dresden.de>,
mwh...@rcs1.urz.tu-dresden.de says...
Wally Macnow
Mark White <mwh...@rcs1.urz.tu-dresden.de> wrote:
>I've been puzzled for some time about a reference to "the little
>musgrave," a character who appears in one of Planxty's songs.
>Unfortunately, I forget the name of the song right now, but it's about
>a nobleman who leaves his wife while away on a trip, and the little
>musgrave who then cuckolds her. The nobleman then kills the musgrave,
>but not before he's arisen from the bed and puts on his clothes and
>sword (I believe). Anyway, does anyone know what a musgrave *is*?
The song "Mathie Groves" also called "Matty Groves" is pretty old and its
found in a lot of places in England and America.
Little Musgrave is a town in England not far from Greater Musgrave. I
think the Cornish singer, Vic Legg, mentioned that last week at Pinewoods
Camp.
Wally Macnow
http://www.camsco.com/
Kevin Kelly
Don't know if it's at all relevant but there is a play called
"Musgraves Dance" about a town and one of it's favourite sons. If
not relevant it's still a great play.
Kevin
Douglas Clark
`Little Musgrave' is one of the ballads. Must be in Child.
--
Douglas Clark Voice: +44 1225 427104
69 Hillcrest Drive, Email: D.G.D...@bath.ac.uk
Bath, Somerset, BA2 1HD, UK Benjamin Press: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc
Bruce
Mark White <mwh...@rcs1.urz.tu-dresden.de> wrote:
>I've been puzzled for some time about a reference to "the little
>musgrave," a character who appears in one of Planxty's songs.
The notes to the version I have refer to Little Musgrave (capital
letters), suggesting that Musgrave is the lad's surname: presumably the
family included a Big Musgrave and a couple of medium-sized ones.
The CD Rom version of the Oxford English Dictionary doesnt recognise the
word, so presumably it doesn't exist :-)
I hope someone comes up with a more romantic alternative answer...
Cheers
Bruce
OssianG
RE: Little Mattie Groves Child 81
also see John Jocob Niles # 34a & 34b
In Nile's anthology 43a refers to Mattie Groves as Mosie Graves this
collection was a 13 verse version from Virginia ( The state circa 1934) .
For the sake of interest this theme of the Bonnie Wee Peasant Lad stealing
the heart of the Noble Woman by appearance alone and no deliberate intent
was apperantly very popular in theatres and vaudevilles in both England
and the early Americas. -Ossian
**************************************************************************
* Ossian Gillebert: Irish Folksinger & Humourist *
* E-Mail Oss...@AOL.COM *
* Or Visit the Website http://www.cris.com%7Eascii64/og *
**************************************************************************
Abby Sale
On Thu, 04 Jul 1996 12:40:42 +0100, Mark White
<mwh...@rcs1.urz.tu-dresden.de> wrote:
>I've been puzzled for some time about a reference to "the little
>musgrave," a character who appears in one of Planxty's songs.
>Unfortunately, I forget the name of the song right now, but it's about
As I'm sure you now know, the name of the widely known song is "Little
Musgrave" (or Musgrove) and that it is #81 in Prof. child's collection and
generally known in America as "(Little) Mattie Groves."
Little Musgrave (no "the") is simply the protagonist's name in the oldest
texts (1620.) However, you got me to thinking that this is, in fact, a
fairly unusual name. So I got to wondering if it's a name derived from a
trade (like taylor) or a town or some other thing. I also kept in mind
that 17th & 18th century songs often included some flagrantly allegorical
element, especially in naming the characters.
Wildly speculating, I offer that "muss" is a known spelling of "moss" or
bog/fen/swamp. That leaves him called "Grave in the fen." Could be.
He's committing adultery (cuckolding the _husband_) which might well call
for the death penalty and an unmarked grave. (He's only a foot-page,
after all.) Perhaps the song is hinting prophetically at the inevitable
results of the sin. I know she is higher class & gets dumped on top of
him in the same grave but she's also guilty of adultery. Anyway, it's
only allegory.
Or perhaps not.
=========================================================================
I am Abby Sale - abby...@sundial.net
And I quote:
Quayle stumbled in response to a question about his opinion of the
Holocaust. He said it was "an obscene period in our nation's history."
Then, trying to clarify his remark, Quayle said he meant "this century's
history. We all lived in this century, I didn't live in this century."
-- Vice President Dan Quayle
=========================================================================
Greer Gilman
Musgrave (or Musgrove) is a not uncommon English surname. There are some
rather giddy young Musgroves (Anne Elliot's in-laws) in Jane Austen's
_Persuasion_. There's one in my local phone book. _The Penguin
Dictionary of Surnames_ by Basil Cottle says that the surname derives from
the place-name (there's one in Somerset and two in Westmorland). Turning
to Ekwall's _The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names_, I find
a listing for Musgrave, Great & Little, "grove frequented by mice." (Now
=there's= a ballad for you--where's Les Barker when we need him?)
Greer Gilman
David Harley
Bob Norton (rno...@flash.net) wrote:
: It's a folk modified form of Mattie Groves, which is the usual name of the
: song. Little Musgrave is one of many sound-alike variants.
Surely that's the wrong way round? Mattie Groves is a debased colonial
version of Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard..... ;-)
Asbestos drawers on......
--
David Harley __@____ har...@icrf.icnet.uk
Support & Security Analyst )_<|\__)| Embryonic antivirus web page
Imperial Cancer Research Fund [--|\--[_] http://webworlds.co.uk/dharley/
Steve Unsworth
Douglas Clark
It is late at night but are you not thinking of `Armstrongs Last Goodnight'.
I just have that feeling from my subconcious.
Daisy
I too had heard of Matty Groves as 'Little Musgrave' in various books.
There is a town called Great Musgrave in North Yorks (UK) (I think)
Between Tebay on the M6 and Brough (just off the A66). I only know
this because it's on a route I drive a lot. For all I know there may
also be a Little Musgrave in the region.
--
Dept: Computer Services Unit
Phone: +44 161 736 6541 Ext. 378 Fax: +44 161 745 8386
University College Salford, Salford, M6 6PU, UK.
Mark White
Thanks for all of the replies to my query re: the origins/meaning of
"musgrave". Coincidentally, that was my first post to this newsgroup,
and it's gratifying to have received such helpful and edifying
responses.
Holly Tannen
In article <31DBAD...@rcs1.urz.tu-dresden.de>, Mark White
I've had the idea that it is a place - that the fellow in question is being
referred to by the name of his landholdings. As in "Andrew Lammie," in
which Bonnie Annie's father is referred to as Mill O'Tifty.
Is there a place called Little Musgrave - I keep thinking it's in the
Scottish borders - where's my map?
Holly
Roger
In article <htannen-10...@pm1-men-a06.mcn.org>
hta...@mcn.org "Holly Tannen" writes:
This puts a whole new perspective on the song. A bit like the old joke:-
"Your wife has been unfaithful to you twice. Once with the milkman and
once with the Household Cavalry."
--
"Damned creatures you are thoroughly evil despite my daily teaching and advice."
| Only the saintly can become good without instruction;
Roger | Only the worthy can become good after instruction;
| Only idiots will not become good even with instruction.
Jeff Dennison
Snip
> Anyway, does anyone know what a musgrave *is*?
Have a look at "The Child Ballads No 81" - "The Little Musgrave and
Lady Barnard." (pp 242 -259) The English and Scottish Popular
Ballads Ed Francis J Child. Pub Dover Publications Inc 1965.
Library of Congress No. 65 - 24347.
Here you will find thirteen variiants of the ballad. Musgrave is
apparently the guy's name of which there a re a number of variants of
the spelling Little Musgrave - Little Mousegrove - Young Musgrave -
Wee Messgrove - Little Sir Grove - Little Munsgrove - Little
Mushiegrove and Little Massgrove.
The earliest impression of the song appeared around 1607.
The most used version today seems to be based upon the one in Percy's
Reliques of Ancient English Poetry Vol 3.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Jeff
Bantock Butty (motorised) CORONATION on the North Oxford Canal at Ansty
George Hawes
Roger <Ro...@ducks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <htannen-10...@pm1-men-a06.mcn.org>
> hta...@mcn.org "Holly Tannen" writes:
>> Is there a place called Little Musgrave - I keep thinking it's in the
>> Scottish borders - where's my map?
>This puts a whole new perspective on the song.
<snipped - we can't repeat frivolity here!> ;-)
Yes, nice theory, Holly - but I think you've been away from
these shores too long, and are indulging in wishful thinking!!
Little could be a reference to age or size, and - as already
indicated - Musgrave is a family name.
IMHO and I could be proved wrong!
Regards
George
Phillip Mannion
"Lord Barnard's Castle is an impressive ruin, dominating the town of
Barnard Castle in County Durham. About 20 miles west, in
Westmoreland, lies Great Musgrave, a tiny little village locAted on
a cuve in a country road. another mile or so of asphalt road, then
there is a small white sign pointing to Little Musgrave - the road
becomes a little dirt track, leads straight into a farmyard and
stops." Peggy Seeger, notes to Peggy Alone, Argo DA81, 1968.
--
Phillip Mannion
Andrew Cleal
Didn't Sid & Henry Kipper sing of "Big Musgrave" in their version of
somthing resembling "Matty Groves" ?
The definitive version!
--
Andrew C.
John Roberts
Isn't it one of those ritual songs, at least if I remember my AC Doyle
correctly?
JR.
Abby Sale
Andrew Cleal wrote:
>
> Didn't Sid & Henry Kipper sing of "Big Musgrave" in their version of
> somthing resembling "Matty Groves" ?
> The definitive version!
Yes, on _Fresh Yesterday_. My only Kipper Family album & I love it!
I totallt agree - definitive!
=========================================================================
I am Abby Sale - abby...@sundial.net
And I quote:
Japan is an important ally of ours. Japan and the United States of
the Western industrialized capacity, 60 percent of the GNP,
two countries. That's a statement in and of itself.
Reuben Musgrave
John Roberts wrote:
>
> Andrew Cleal wrote:
> >
> > Didn't Sid & Henry Kipper sing of "Big Musgrave" in their version of
> > somthing resembling "Matty Groves" ?
> > The definitive version!
> >
> > Andrew C.
>
> Isn't it one of those ritual songs, at least if I remember my AC Doyle
> correctly?
>
> JR.
Hi --
I assume this thread developed because of someone wondering about the lyrics
to "Little Musgrave," one of the Child Ballads. I didn't see the original post,
but I can tell you with some authority that a "Musgrave" is nothing more than
a person NAMED Musgrave (like me). This surname is 10 times more
familiar in the British Isles and Commonwealth countries than in the U.S.
(Australia even has a "Musgrave Range" of mountains!) For some reason, the
variant "Musgrove" is also much more common than the "-grave" spelling.
Genealogists love the name for its rich history. There's even a genealogy
sourcebook called "Collectanea Musgraviana" -- through which a genealogist
once traced my ancestors back to a ninth-century Irish king named Conaire
Musc. That name, and the surname origin as given in the British peerage
books, suggest a connection with the Latin word "mus," for mouse. Some
sources theorize that the first Musgraves were really Mousegroves, named for
a forest that was known for its mice. (That one never appealed to me, for
some reason.)
However, in more RECENT history -- say, the past 600 years, the Musgrave
name has been especially famous as one of the "border tribes" between
England and Scotland. These clans (not really recognized as official clans by
Edinburgh, since they were not highlanders) lived in what amounted to a war
zone for several hundred years, adjusting their politics to suit whichever
nobleman was in power at the moment. A great book on the subject of the
border clans is "The Steel Bonnets" by George MacDonald Fraser (ISBN #:
0-00-272746-3). (For a brief account of the border tribes as raiders, murderers,
and horse thieves, see http://ppp.jax-inter.net/users/rutledge/reivers.htm on
the www -- where the "MusGROVE" variant is used.
Not only is the name found in Jane Austen's "Persuasion," as noted by Greer
Gillman, and in the Sherlock Holmes story "The Musgrave Ritual," as wittily
pointed out by John Roberts (is that THE John Roberts?), but Sir Walter Scott refers
to the REAL family on more than one occasion, especially in "Lochinvar" --
"There was mounting 'mong Graemes of the Netherby clan;/Forsters, Fenwicks,
and Musgraves, they rode and they ran./There was racing and chasing on Cannobie
Lea, but the lost bride of Netherby ne'er did they see..." (All of the surnames
mentioned here were border clans famous for "racing and chasing" -- polite names
for murdering, raping, and pillaging.)
______________________________
Reuben Musgrave
hey...@erols.com
Abby Sale
On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 23:54:56 +0000, Reuben Musgrave <hey...@erols.com>
wrote:
>Genealogists love the name for its rich history. There's even a genealogy
>sourcebook called "Collectanea Musgraviana" -- through which a genealogist
>once traced my ancestors back to a ninth-century Irish king named Conaire
>Musc. That name, and the surname origin as given in the British peerage
>books, suggest a connection with the Latin word "mus," for mouse. Some
>sources theorize that the first Musgraves were really Mousegroves, named for
Back to my "mouse" theory, huh? Ah... What goes around comes around. :-)
Well posted, Reuben. Thanks for the rich details.
> (All of the surnames
>mentioned here were border clans famous for "racing and chasing" -- polite >names for murdering, raping, and pillaging.)
I can't help but wonder, in this case, if a political element might creep
into the song. Is Matty not simply a hapless, pious youth going to church
that "high holy day?" Perhaps the lady's unsolicited solicitation of him
was a deliberate slap in the face to the Establishment Bernard. Perhaps
he left the cap off the toothpaste once too often and this is her was of
getting back at him. A desire for Bernard to know about it would account
for the rather flagrant meeting and trysting, as well as her
disinclination to be warned by the horns of Bernard's returning troops. A
deep femme fatale.
Hey, - I'm just playing here. Don't no one take it seriously. Idlest
fantasizing.
=========================================================================
I am Abby Sale - abby...@sundial.net
And I quote:
St. Louis, MO --(UPI)-- Vice President Dan Quayle today visited St.
Louis, MO, which bears a heavy population descended from German
immigrants. In order to show support for the newly-unified country of
Germany, fatherland of many in the audience, he repeated John F.
Kennedy's words of support 30 years earlier, but this time in English,
"I am a Jelly Doughnut!" Political commentators agreed that something
was lost in the translation. Dan Quayle explained his remark by saying
that he had been told that those who lived in central America enjoyed
jelly doughnuts.
Gerry Myerson
In article <31FBFD...@erols.com>, Reuben Musgrave <hey...@erols.com>
wrote:
->
-> For some reason, the variant "Musgrove" is also much more common than
the
-> "-grave" spelling.
Not here, it isn't. 70 Musgraves in the Sydney phone book, 31 Musgroves.
Gerry Myerson (ge...@mpce.mq.edu.au)
ghost
In article <31fcca0...@news.sundial.net> abby...@sundial.net (Abby Sale) writes:
>I can't help but wonder, in this case, if a political element might creep
>into the song. Is Matty not simply a hapless, pious youth going to church
>that "high holy day?" Perhaps the lady's unsolicited solicitation of him
Woah, Abby. In Christy Moore's version, that 'hapless, pious youth'
*goes* to church in the 1st place "to see fine ladies there".
(so there)
Do you know of versions officially collected over here?
[In one of the recent Sacred Harp newsletter (yes I'm in the thrall of a
culture folks but bear with me, & yes, I know this is *not* a religious
song; it stands to reason that people who carry on singing the religious
folksongs might remember some of the secular ones too) the friend of a
very fine gentleman who died suddenly & unexpectedly recounts how she had meant
to record his singing of his family's version some day, but thought she had
plenty of years left in which to do it, so never did. She says that he said it
wasn't sung before the kids very often because of the salacious goings-on in
the song, but they learned it anyway. However, they learned it as
"Lew Darlin's Wife" because, she theorizes, at some point in the passing-along
in these democratic USofA, someone decided "Lord Arlen" didn't mean anything to
them (either decided, or for the same reason, just simply heard it that way).]