Any Decent National Anthems?
Richard Sheir
We were watching the Jays the other day and it hit me how awful and
unsingable Oh Canada and the Star Spangled Banner are. Beyond the French
national anthem, are there any good melodies or exceptionally nice imagery
in national anthems?
Since this is an international usegroup, I assumed that if anyone should
know, it would be RMFers because national anthems are the ultimate folk music.
--
Richard
Deborah Stevenson
(Richard Sheir) writes:
>We were watching the Jays the other day and it hit me how awful and
>unsingable Oh Canada and the Star Spangled Banner are. Beyond the French
>national anthem, are there any good melodies or exceptionally nice imagery
>in national anthems?
Without getting into arguments about what consitutes a nation :-), I'll
say that the Welsh "Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" is a really lovely national
anthem. It's in 3/4, which seems to be a rarity, and the sentiments are
about the beauty of the country and the wonders of the language rather
than the more martial attitudes many countries seem to feel obliged to
put forth.
There is at least one book of national anthems worldwide; I used to check
it out from my local library in high school. You might want to try your
local and see whether they have anything like it.
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Jgrr
Joshua Rosenau
jg...@aol.com
guitarist, musicologist, techie, luthier, what more could you want
Paul J. Stamler
words of course. Some of the African nations have lovely national anthems
based on traditional tunes.
BTW, I'd say that national anthems aren't "folk music". They're "country
music". (Thanks Johnny Hart! :-)|||)
Paul Corrado
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: In <3pnab6$8...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> rsh...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
: (Richard Sheir) writes:
: Deborah Stevenson
: (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
I agree 100% that the Star Spangled Banner is an awful song both lyrically
and musically. I signed a petition a while back to make AMERICA THE
BEAUTIFUL our national anthem. By the way, does anyone know the last verse
to that song? AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL always makes me cry when I hear or sing
it. The first two verses are:
O beautiful for spacious skies
for amber waves of grain
for purple mountains majesty
above the fruited plain
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee
and crown thy good
with brotherhood
from sea to shining sea
O beautiful for patriot dreams
that see beyond the years
thine alabaster cities gleam
undimmed by human tears
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw
confirm thy soul
in self-control
thy liberty in law
Scott Dorsey
>I rather like the Internationale.
Yes, but it's not a national anthem any longer. Actually, one of the
nicer tunes was "Forward Left" which was the Czechoslovak anthem, which
you don't hear around much at all.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
OldFrat
Michael Shields
Paul Corrado <corr...@is2.nyu.edu> wrote:
> I agree 100% that the Star Spangled Banner is an awful song both lyrically
> and musically. I signed a petition a while back to make AMERICA THE
> BEAUTIFUL our national anthem.
How about "This Land is Your Land"?
(On-topic, too!)
--
Shields.
kirk robert ; ba geog
:
: : In <3pnab6$8...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> rsh...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
: : (Richard Sheir) writes:
: : >We were watching the Jays the other day and it hit me how awful and
: : >unsingable Oh Canada and the Star Spangled Banner are. Beyond the French
: : >national anthem, are there any good melodies or exceptionally nice imagery
: : >in national anthems?
: : Without getting into arguments about what consitutes a nation :-), I'll
: : say that the Welsh "Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" is a really lovely national
: : anthem. It's in 3/4, which seems to be a rarity, and the sentiments are
: : about the beauty of the country and the wonders of the language rather
: : than the more martial attitudes many countries seem to feel obliged to
: : put forth.
: : There is at least one book of national anthems worldwide; I used to check
: : it out from my local library in high school. You might want to try your
: : local and see whether they have anything like it.
: : Deborah Stevenson
: : (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
: I agree 100% that the Star Spangled Banner is an awful song both lyrically
: and musically. I signed a petition a while back to make AMERICA THE
: BEAUTIFUL our national anthem. By the way, does anyone know the last verse
: to that song? AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL always makes me cry when I hear or sing
: it. The first two verses are:
: O beautiful for spacious skies
: for amber waves of grain
: for purple mountains majesty
: above the fruited plain
: America! America!
: God shed His grace on thee
: and crown thy good
: with brotherhood
: from sea to shining sea
: O beautiful for patriot dreams
: that see beyond the years
: thine alabaster cities gleam
: undimmed by human tears
: America! America!
: God mend thine every flaw
: confirm thy soul
: in self-control
: thy liberty in law
:
Oh, beautiful for Pilgrims' feet
Woh's stern impassioned streess,
A thoroughfae for freedom beat
Across the wilderness.
Bob Kirk
Olin Murrell
>In article <3pnjjs$k...@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>,
>Paul Corrado <corr...@is2.nyu.edu> wrote:
>> and musically. I signed a petition a while back to make AMERICA THE
>> BEAUTIFUL our national anthem.
>
>
>(On-topic, too!)
Woddy's turning in his grave right about now. He always saw this as a
protest song, not an anthem.
--
Olin Murrell
Austin, TX
ol...@bga.com
ghost
>
>: In <3pnab6$8...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> rsh...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
>: (Richard Sheir) writes:
>
>: >We were watching the Jays the other day and it hit me how awful and
>: >unsingable Oh Canada and the Star Spangled Banner are. Beyond the French
>: >national anthem, are there any good melodies or exceptionally nice imagery
>: >in national anthems?
>I agree 100% that the Star Spangled Banner is an awful song both lyrically
>and musically. I signed a petition a while back to make AMERICA THE
Obligatory folk-musician reference:
Last year James Keelaghan had a shot as designated-singer for a Canadian ball
club.
Someone at his his next concert locally told him the anthems had not been
televised (too many lucrative commercials to get in?) & asked him
"So which did you sing?"
He said "Both of then." The asker then asked "So how did you do?".
"Nailed them" said Keelaghan proudly.
Follows here:
Old article actually written during the last bout of Banner-bashing.
Actually it was Danny Boy-bashing at that time, with the Banner thrown in
for good measure.:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A word on star-spangled banner range:
This is a song that all 7-year-olds in the USofA can sing effortlessly,
but that scares them when they get to be adults, for some reason.
Scares them enough that they would like to abandon it as an anthem not for
its martial nature, but just because of its required range.
I know 2 different versions of SSB, one which I think I learned in
childhood, & which produces no high note, but as an adult has a low note
that's hard to reach only if you start singing it in your
normal-speaking-range instead of starting it a little higher, the other
version which must be the one everybody talks about when they say they
can't hit the high note. Any resident musicologists want to comment on
whether there really are 2 (or more) versions or I'm imagining this?
I'm sorry I can't tell everybody what key I'm singing it in or what the
names of the notes in question are, but the description-by-example is
"...were so gallantly streaming
and the rocket's red glare"
^
where "and" starts at or just a little higher than the note you sung for
the "ing" of "streaming"; I *think* that "and" in this case starts on the
same note for which you sung the "stream" of "streaming".
This puts the 'was" of "that our flag was still there" *way* low
(unless you've started the song a little higher than adult-speaking-range
would dictate)
but leaves "free" in "o'er the land of the free" in the same range as
you started the song.
The version everybody seems to be singing as adults, however,
either does a key change starting on
"and the rocket's red glare"
(it sort of feels like a key-change to me when I try it; maybe not, though)
or at any rate starts the phrase somewhere near or at the level
at which you started the song, the "Oh" of "Oh-o say can you see".
This of course puts "free" in "o'er the land of the free" higher than
some self-conscious people would like to be caught singing.
I just went & looked up a version that doesn't help at all;
it's "Oh" on what I take to be lead-part starts much lower than than the
"and" of "and the rocket's red glare", its "say' on "Oh-o say" is the
lowest note in the song, much lower than they've written "was" in
"was still there".
What can I say? (Oh-o what can I say?)
Oddly enough, I don't get looked at any funnier than I usually get looked
at for singing either of my versions, neither of which matches this written
version (doubtless only one of many you can use & still have the tune
recognizable?).
I believe I've *heard* this massive distance between "Oh" & "say" used, but
*only* by opera singers. I thought they were just doing "the opera-singer
thing" to the song. I'm a little horrified to see it actually written this
way; no normal person does this.
(I remember it as "valiently streaming", not "gallantly streaming", too.)
Michael Shields
> shi...@tembel.org (Michael Shields) wrote:
> >In article <3pnjjs$k...@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>,
> >Paul Corrado <corr...@is2.nyu.edu> wrote:
> >> and musically. I signed a petition a while back to make AMERICA THE
> >
> >How about "This Land is Your Land"?
> >
> >(On-topic, too!)
>
> Woddy's turning in his grave right about now. He always saw this as a
> protest song, not an anthem.
I didn't say it should be official.
--
Shields.
Walter Nelson
stately, but lends itself to as much harmonizing as the singers can manage.
I think it is called "God Bless Africa" and used to be the ANC song. It
now has numerous sets of lyrics, depending on one's language. It is also
not one of those dull, utterly forgetable marches so many countries pick.
I have to admit liking the Star Spangled Banner, but I have to confess to
being an unreconstructed patriot and it pushes lots of subconscious
buttons totally independent of its quality as a song.
It is also a very memorable and distinctive tune, and *NOT* a march
(despite its warlike nature). It is of course, a drinking song by origin,
and not an ordinary drinking song. It was a high-brow club drinking song,
intended to test the skill and demonstrate the prowess of the singers.
My group has done the drinking song on many occasions, and when done well,
it is awesome. However, if the leader starts too high, disaster results
half way through the verse.
While I still love the tune, I have to agree that it may have been a poor
choice for a song intended to be sung by ordinary folks as well as skilled
singers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Nelson | INSERT PITHY WITTICISM HERE
RAND |
walter...@rand.org |
___________________________________________________________________________
Olin Murrell
>In article <3pp531$q...@giga.bga.com>, Olin Murrell <ol...@bga.com> wrote:
>> shi...@tembel.org (Michael Shields) wrote:
>> >How about "This Land is Your Land"?
>> >
>> >(On-topic, too!)
>>
>> Woddy's turning in his grave right about now. He always saw this as a
>> protest song, not an anthem.
>
>I didn't say it should be official.
>--
agree with you. It would be a perfect anthem.
DA Eger
: Since this is an international usegroup, I assumed that if anyone should
: know, it would be RMFers because national anthems are the ultimate folk music.
National anthems are the ultimate folk music? What do you mean exactly? Most
of the national anthems I have heard from around the world have sounded
distinctly European, or at least like attempts at sounding European. Whether
such places as Japan, New Guinea or Brunei had national anthems before their
inhabitants came into contact with Europeans and their culture, I don't
know, but most of those in use now seem to be the result of acculturation.
With the definition of 'folk music' as vague as it is, I would not
deny that national anthems are a form of folk music, but I would be
interested to know exactly what you mean by 'the ultimate folk music'.
Corns.
zn...@teleport.com
: I have to admit liking the Star Spangled Banner, but I have to confess to
: being an unreconstructed patriot and it pushes lots of subconscious
: buttons totally independent of its quality as a song.
: It is also a very memorable and distinctive tune, and *NOT* a march
: (despite its warlike nature). It is of course, a drinking song by origin,
: and not an ordinary drinking song. It was a high-brow club drinking song,
: intended to test the skill and demonstrate the prowess of the singers.
: My group has done the drinking song on many occasions, and when done well,
: it is awesome. However, if the leader starts too high, disaster results
: half way through the verse.
As I recall, the original was called "To Anacreon in Heaven". Could
someone post the original lyrics, and some clue as to when and by whom
that melody was chosen to accompany Francis Scott Key's poem?
--
zn...@teleport.COM (M. Edward Borasky)
How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 1
"Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelope play..."
The antelope cheats.
-Watson,P.L.
national anthem. I don't know the words, since I
only get to hear it before certain professional
hockey and baseball games, and during the Olympics,
but the melody is quite nice.
I have it from a friend from North Dakota that
sometimes they accompany the Canadian national
anthem more enthusiastically than the Star Spangled
Banner.
They got a great flag, too.
Paul Watson, plwa...@att.com
AT&T - Bell Laboratories
Ruth Ellen Seid
In a previous article, ol...@bga.com (Olin Murrell) says:
>shi...@tembel.org (Michael Shields) wrote:
>>In article <3pnjjs$k...@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>,
>>Paul Corrado <corr...@is2.nyu.edu> wrote:
>>> I agree 100% that the Star Spangled Banner is an awful song both lyrically
>>> and musically. I signed a petition a while back to make AMERICA THE
>>> BEAUTIFUL our national anthem.
>>
>>How about "This Land is Your Land"?
>>
>
>Woddy's turning in his grave right about now. He always saw this as a
>protest song, not an anthem.
Can you imagine the U.S. Marines marching into (name the non-U.S. country
of your choice) singing "This Land is your land, this land is MY land"???
Ruth Ellen
--
Ruth Ellen Seid
ad...@lafn.org
Ian Anderson
> Since this is an international usegroup, I assumed that if anyone should
> know, it would be RMFers because national anthems are the ultimate folk music.
The Gambian one is very attractive. It was written by the late kora
player Jali Nyama Suso.
Ian Anderson (Folk Roots)
Phil Ward
formation of the ANC, by a Christian priest called (I think) Enoch Songoba.
It expressed "pan-Africanist" sentiments, and was taken up by nationalist
movements and their successor governments in Tanzania, Zambia, Namibia
and Zimbabwe, as well as South Africa. Musically, it reflects its
origins in the Church, albeit with South African harmonies.
Personally, I regret the fact that it has now been officially
appropriated, and will therefore gradually lose its significance as a
song of liberation, in the way that the Marseillaise (also a great song)
has.
The words are (phonetically) as follows;
Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika (God Belss Africa)
Maluphaka Nyiswu phondolwyo
Yizwa imitanda so yetu
Nkosi Sikilela, Nkosi Sikilela
(repeat but with last line: Nkosi Sikilela, Thina lusapholwyo)
Wosa Moya (Wosa Moya Wosa) (x 2)
Wosa Moya o yi Ncwe le nkosi sikelela, Thina lusapholwyo
Morena boloka Sechaba saheso )
O fedise dintwa le ma tswen yeho ) (x2)
O se boloke, (O se boloke)
O se boloke morena sechahba sa heso
Sechaba sa Afrika
O se boloke, (O se boloke)
O se boloke sechaba, sechaba sa heso
Sechaba sa Afrika
The first part is in Xhosa,as far as I recall, and the second
(from "morena") is in Sotho. The word Ncwe has a click in it,
so it is pronounced "nnnn-(click)-we". Most of us Brits seem
to be unable to do it!
I don't know of any recordings of Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika by
Africans (!), but the choir I am taped it in 1990, and it
has also been recorded by Cor Corchion Caerdydd (Cardiff red
choir). Both choirs also have the Internationale on their
tapes, and Cor Corchion also do the Welsh Anthem.
Philip Ward
Timothy J Keenan
: I like it, too.
[snip] : But the song is *still* awfully hard to sing for most people
(maybe that's another reason I like it!).
I've heard this for years, and still don't get it. I think it
[The Star-spattered Bangle, I mean] is a
tremendous melody, and the range is what gives it its emotional impact.
It is *only* an octave and a half, and the normal range of the average
human voice is close to two octaves. The problem is, it has to be
pitched around G or A in order for all voices to reach it comfortably.
"Oh Canada" has a range of only one octave (at least that's what i think
having just hummed it to myself) but is more harmonically difficult,
having a couple of modulations in it. It is kind of a plain-Jane tune
which can be rendered stirring with a good arrangement, but does not
have nearly the emotional punch that the SSB has.
Actually, I always liked the anthem of the USSR--the main thing I miss
about the Soviet Union is not hearing their national anthem played at
international figure skating competitions on TV
And as for "This land is your land", if vocal range is a high priority,
it definitely should win. The entire song is sung over a fifth--
The highest note is "fa" and the lowest is "ti" below "doh".
Did you know that most Canadian kids grow up singing the song thus:
TLIYL TLIML
From Bonavista to Vancouver Island
From the Arctic Circle
To the Great Lake waters
TLWMFYAM
-- Tim Keenan
Cliff Ecology Research Group
Botany Department
University of Guelph
Guelph, Ontario
Bill Thurmes
wal...@thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson) writes:
> I have to admit liking the Star Spangled Banner, but I have to confess to
> being an unreconstructed patriot and it pushes lots of subconscious
> buttons totally independent of its quality as a song.
>
I like it, too. Several years ago, Isaac Asimov wrote a very persuasive
editorial on why it should remain our national anthem. The gist of the
argument was: the episode written about in the song was during the war
of 1812. The British had already captured one capital city
(Washington), and were trying to capture Baltimore, our new capital
city. If they succeeded, not only would they have most of the
government under their control, but they would also, quite literally,
have split the country in half, since they would have taken over the
whole river. Thus, if it weren't for the episode the song writes about,
the United States probably would have lasted only 36 years. This makes
it a defining moment in our history. But the song is *still* awfully
hard to sing for most people (maybe that's another reason I like it!).
> It is also a very memorable and distinctive tune, and *NOT* a march
> (despite its warlike nature). It is of course, a drinking song by origin,
> and not an ordinary drinking song. (more follows)
I've always wanted to know - what are the word to the drinking song?
-- Bill Thurmes
JonathBlue
>>We were watching the Jays the other day and it hit me how awful and
unsingable Oh Canada and the Star Spangled Banner are. Beyond the French
national anthem, are there any good melodies or exceptionally nice imagery
in national anthems?<<
-----------------------------------------------------------
I agree with those who have weighed in advocating a change in the U.S.
anthem to "America the Beautiful". Far superior lyrically and musically.
The Israeli National Anthem "Ha Tikvah" (which means "Hope") is very
moving. It is in a minor key (I believe) and has a beautiful, bittersweet
melody.
Jonathan
Jonat...@aol.com
Jonathan Horn/Jonat...@aol.com
John Spicer
: The Soth African National Anthem was composed in about 1898, prior to the
: formation of the ANC, by a Christian priest called (I think) Enoch Songoba.
Thanks for the information and the phonetic lyrics.
: The words are (phonetically) as follows;
: Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika (God Belss Africa)
Any chance someone could complete the translation?
: The first part is in Xhosa,as far as I recall, and the second
: (from "morena") is in Sotho. The word Ncwe has a click in it,
: so it is pronounced "nnnn-(click)-we". Most of us Brits seem
: to be unable to do it!
A point Miriam Makeb makes on one of her albums before singing a
traditional African song that the English call ``The Click Song'' because
of linguistic difficulties.
: I don't know of any recordings of Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika by
: Africans (!), but the choir I am taped it in 1990, and it
The ANC choir has a recording of the song which is excellent.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Spicer Department of Economics
spi...@qed.econ.queensu.ca Queen's University
Kingston, Ontario.
ghost
>JonathBlue (jonat...@aol.com) wrote:
>: The Israeli National Anthem "Ha Tikvah" (which means "Hope") is very
>: moving. It is in a minor key (I believe) and has a beautiful, bittersweet
>: melody.
>Smetana.
Nope: Smetana, in "The Moldau", steals what was either a local (Chezch?)
folk tune or a local Jewish folk tune, messes around with the key its in to
make it sound "more uplifting", rearranges it a bit, & puts his name on it.
Typical story. When classical composers wanted something with ethnic
flavor they usually just swiped something from the local ethnics, but many
did acknowledge their sources. I don't know about Smetana.
zn...@teleport.com
Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
Richard Sauer
>
>JonathBlue (jonat...@aol.com) wrote:
>: The Israeli National Anthem "Ha Tikvah" (which means "Hope") is very
>: moving. It is in a minor key (I believe) and has a beautiful,
bittersweet
>: melody.
>It is also from a well-known classical composition, "The Moldau", by
>Smetana.
>--
>zn...@teleport.COM (M. Edward Borasky)
>How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 1
>"Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelope play..."
>The antelope cheats.
>
the Cuban National Anthem. It sounds like a Sousa March. Viva Fidel.
zn...@teleport.com
Michael Brooke
: Timothy J Keenan (tke...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
: : Actually, I always liked the anthem of the USSR--the main thing I miss
: : international figure skating competitions on TV
: entry in a contest sponsored by Stalin. Someone from
: "alt.fan.shostakovich" please confirm or deny. I miss it too :-).
There's a passage in 'Testimony' that describes the national anthem
contest - the five shortlisted entries were by Shostakovich,
Khatchaturian, Khatchaturian AND Shostakovich, the Georgian composer
Iona Tuskiya and Grigori Alexandrov. After much debate, Stalin
pronounced Alexandrov the winner, though this was apparently only
after Shostakovich displeased him by saying that he could
reorchestrate his anthem in five hours - Stalin expected at least a
month for such a serious task. ("Actually", said Shostakovich later,
"I could have done it in five minutes".).
So it looks as though it was written by Grigori Alexandrov, though I
don't know if it's the same anthem as the official Soviet anthem.
Hope this helps.
Michael
zn...@teleport.com
: Actually, I always liked the anthem of the USSR--the main thing I miss
: about the Soviet Union is not hearing their national anthem played at
: international figure skating competitions on TV
I believe it was written by Dmitri Shostakovich. It was the winning
entry in a contest sponsored by Stalin. Someone from
"alt.fan.shostakovich" please confirm or deny. I miss it too :-).
Mark Schuster
>
>Timothy J Keenan (tke...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
>: Actually, I always liked the anthem of the USSR--the main thing I miss
>: about the Soviet Union is not hearing their national anthem played at
>: international figure skating competitions on TV
>I believe it was written by Dmitri Shostakovich. It was the winning
>entry in a contest sponsored by Stalin. Someone from
>"alt.fan.shostakovich" please confirm or deny. I miss it too :-).
>--
Shostakovich entered the competition for the Soviet National anthem, but
the one that was selected was not his.
--
Mark Schuster
Viola/Composition Student
DePaul University, Chicago, IL
msch...@wppost.depaul.edu
marks...@aol.com
John Boocock
militaristic "Flower of Scotland" - My own candidate is Michael
Marra's "Hermeless"
--
John Boocock
eladd
to listen to, maybe we should just drop it completely and not replace
it with anything....
I would hope that as we move into the next century, we will be able to
distance ourselves from the rabid nationalism that has characterized
many societies for the last 2 centuries. What is an anthem (or a flag
for that matter) but an outdated expression of an archaic idea?
And speaking of America, if we still had to have an anthem, I would
propose a medley of "God Bless America" and "This Land is Your Land."
It would have a nice innate tension, and would partly appeal to almost
everyone. (I can almost see a Gingrich/ Kennedy duet....brings tears
to my eyes!)
-Ethan
Aaron R. Priven
wal...@thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson) wrote:
>The pitfall in this request is that about as many people know their state
>song as know their official state flower, bug, fish or fungus. I've
>always sort of figured mine was "California Here I Come", which is a
>lively, if brainless piece of fluff, but I have this nagging feeling
>that the *OFFICIAL* song is some utterly forgettable dirge, written by
>some little old Victorian lady, about what a nice climate we have.
There was a movement at one point to replace "I Love You California,"
a song nobody knows, with "California Here I Come," but as I recall it
did not succeed.
I know "I Love You California" is the state song because as a child I
read almanacs, but I don't know what it sounds like. I think it was
written in the '30s. Somebody should do a heavy metal version of it.
I can't imagine what this has to do with Shostakovich anymore, so
followups to rec.music.folk, which might have some possible relevance,
and rec.music.misc and alt.california.
=Aaron=
--
Aaron Priven; San Jose, CA, USA. aa...@chrysopylae.com, aar...@best.com
Self-indulgent home page: <URL:http://www.chrysopylae.com/>
Catherine Mac donald
Range), I
>: was wondering if anyone has any state/regional songs to suggest....
Actually, I think Peter and Lou Berryman's "Your State's Name Here" says it
all best 8-)
Catherine
macd...@nbnet.nb.ca
Patrick Knight
>How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 1
>"Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelope play..."
>The antelope cheats.
Since you quoted from the official state song of Kansas (Home on the Range), I
was wondering if anyone has any state/regional songs to suggest. All I can
say for our song here in Kansas is that probably more people know it than any
other state song (although they don't know they know it, if you know what I
mean).
Walter Nelson
: Since you quoted from the official state song of Kansas (Home on the Range), I
The pitfall in this request is that about as many people know their state
song as know their official state flower, bug, fish or fungus. I've
always sort of figured mine was "California Here I Come", which is a
lively, if brainless piece of fluff, but I have this nagging feeling
that the *OFFICIAL* song is some utterly forgettable dirge, written by
some little old Victorian lady, about what a nice climate we have.
Cheers,
David Prager
Patrick Knight <kni...@ksu.ksu.edu> wrote:
>
>Since you quoted from the official state song of Kansas (Home on the Range), I
>was wondering if anyone has any state/regional songs to suggest.
Washington's state song is "Roll on Columbia" by none other
than Woodie Guthrie. I guess that makes it a folk song.
===============================================================
David Prager (W)206-487-5837
Motorola (H)206-485-4397
Wireless Data Group
19807 Northcreek Parkway
Bothell, WA 98011 pra...@mdd.comm.mot.com
zn...@teleport.com
: >How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 1
: >"Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelope play..."
: >The antelope cheats.
: Since you quoted from the official state song of Kansas (Home on the Range), I
: was wondering if anyone has any state/regional songs to suggest. All I can
: say for our song here in Kansas is that probably more people know it than any
: other state song (although they don't know they know it, if you know what I
: mean).
The last time I was in Kansas, I heard *lots* of discouraging words. :-)
I don't know my current state song from Oregon, but I'm very partial to
the one from my former home, Maryland. The melody is the same as the
well-known Christmas carol "O Tannenbaum" ("Oh, Christmas Tree").
--
zn...@teleport.COM (M. Edward Borasky)
How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 2
"Are you going to Scarborough Fair?"
No.
Ruth Cross
|> : Since you quoted from the official state song of Kansas (Home on the Range),
|> : I was wondering if anyone has any state/regional songs to suggest.
|> wal...@thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson) writes:
|> The pitfall in this request is that about as many people know their state
|> song as know their official state flower, bug, fish or fungus. I've
|> always sort of figured mine was "California Here I Come", which is a
|> lively, if brainless piece of fluff, but I have this nagging feeling
|> that the *OFFICIAL* song is some utterly forgettable dirge, written by
|> some little old Victorian lady, about what a nice climate we have.
Yes, you'd think Texas would have picked something nifty like
"The Yellow Rose of Texas" or "Deep in the Heart of Texas", but
instead they have a very proper hymn-like song called "Texas Our
Texas".
The Montana song I learned as a child was more like a
school fight song than a state song, so I don't know if it
was the official song --
Montana, Montana, glory of the West
Of all the states from coast to coast, your name will be the best.
Montana, Montana, where skies are always blue-oo-oo.
M-O-N-T-A-N-A
Montana I love you.
My favorite state song is "Oh Fair New Mexico". There are about a
dozen verses with a tune that reminds me of a Latinized version of the
"Godfather Theme" and a refrain with a very different, bouncy melody.
The transition from verse to refrain is like the one in "We Three
Kings"; a pause, then a slow beginning on "Oh fair new" and a sudden
shift to full tempo on "Mexico". Fun to sing.
Some bits I remember:
Under a sky of azure
Where balmy breezes blow
Kissed by the golden sunshine
Is Nuevo Mexico.
State of the Montezuma
With fiery heart aglow
State of the deeds historic
Is Nuevo Mexico.
Refrain:
Oh fair New Mexico
We love we love you so
Our hearts with pride o'erflow
No matter where we go
Oh Fair New Mexico
We love we love you so
The grandest state to know
New Mexico.
Fields full of ripe alfalfa
With deep cany^ons below
State of the fertile valleys
Is Nuevo Mexico
etc...
--
Ruth Cross > Em rio que tem piranhas,
nor...@chevron.com > jacare nada de costas.
Houston, Texas, USA >
Frank Reid
> In article <3qfajb$k...@linda.teleport.com> zn...@teleport.com writes:
>
> >How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 1
> >"Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelope play..."
> >The antelope cheats.
>
> say for our song here in Kansas is that probably more people know it than any
> other state song (although they don't know they know it, if you know what I
> mean).
>
>
>
state. Sometime in the '60s the KY legislature officially modified the part
about gay darkies: Second line of the song is now "Tis summer, the loved ones
are gay." ^^^^^ ^^^^
"Georgia On My Mind" by Ray Charles is now the official state song of Georgia,
replacing a very obscure predecessor.
--
Frank re...@indiana.edu
Charles Ehrlich
>Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
This is a non sequitur. Ha Tikva didn't just materialize in 1948, nor did
the Moldau in whatever year Smetena wrote it. We are dealing with an old
folk song - the exact origin of which we may never know. It seems to crop
up in several cultures. It seems likely, as someone has already posted, that
Smetena borrowed the theme from some Czech folk melody (and then rearranged
it a bit). Ha Tikva was a traditional Jewish song. Whether the melody was
originally Czech or Jewish or whatever is the question of this thread. When
Smetena wrote the Moldau is partly irrelevent (since the theme is not
originally his - although he has changed it a bit); when Israel was founded
is entirely irrelevent (the thread is about Ha Tikva, not Israel - who cares
when Israel was founded?).
Charles Ehrlich
Wolfson College (Oxford)
John Rethorst
ehr...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Charles Ehrlich) wrote:
We are dealing with an old
> folk song - the exact origin of which we may never know. It seems to crop
> up in several cultures. It seems likely, as someone has already posted, that
> Smetena borrowed the theme from some Czech folk melody (and then rearranged
> it a bit).
Reminds me of the theme in Dvorak's 9th with the melody of "Three Blind
Mice." Someone at the time thought that was where Dvorak got it, and then
someone else pointed out that a Czech folksong, "Weeding Flaxfields Blue,"
has the same melody. The composer, of course, said he wrote only in the
spirit of folk melodies.
John R.
Larisa Migachyov
: ghost (j...@endor.harvard.edu) wrote:
: : In article <3qfan4$k...@linda.teleport.com> zn...@teleport.com writes:
: : >: The Israeli National Anthem "Ha Tikvah" (which means "Hope") is very
: : >: moving. It is in a minor key (I believe) and has a beautiful, bittersweet
: : >: melody.
: : >It is also from a well-known classical composition, "The Moldau", by
: : >Smetana.
: : Nope: Smetana, in "The Moldau", steals what was either a local (Chezch?)
: : folk tune or a local Jewish folk tune, messes around with the key its in to
: : make it sound "more uplifting", rearranges it a bit, & puts his name on it.
: : Typical story. When classical composers wanted something with ethnic
: : flavor they usually just swiped something from the local ethnics, but many
: : did acknowledge their sources. I don't know about Smetana.
: Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
However, the Jewish people has been in existence for more than 5000
years, and it's quite possible that Ha Tikvah was a folk tune before
Smetana got his hands on it.
-Larisa
Noam Elkies
(Larisa Migachyov) writes:
[...]
>: Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
>However, the Jewish people has been in existence for more than 5000
>years, and it's quite possible that Ha Tikvah was a folk tune before
>Smetana got his hands on it.
_Ha-Tikvah_ (both tune and text, I believe) predates the founding
of Israel by about 50 years. _Moldau_ is a few decades older.
The opening (repeated) phrases of the two tunes are quite similar,
but they sharply diverge afterwards. The same can be said for
the minor-key movement of Mozart's variations K.265/300E on
"ah vous dirai-je Maman", written a century earlier than _Moldau_.
Still, it was reported on rec.music.classical a few months ago
that when the British authorities banned the playing of Ha-Tikvah
in what was to become Israel, _Moldau_ became very popular in
orchestral concerts there. :-)
--Noam D. Elkies (elk...@math.harvard.edu)
Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
Andrew Rogers
>There was a movement at one point to replace "I Love You California,"
>a song nobody knows, with "California Here I Come," but as I recall it
>did not succeed.
There was a movement in 1985 to replace the Washington state song, "Roll On
Columbia" or something like that, with "Louie Louie". It probably failed
because the latter is already the national anthem.
Andrew
Beverly Seavey
You can use it for ant state.
Walter Nelson
: I don't know my current state song from Oregon, but I'm very partial to
: the one from my former home, Maryland. The melody is the same as the
: well-known Christmas carol "O Tannenbaum" ("Oh, Christmas Tree").
Is "Maryland my Maryland" the state song? I find that extremely ironic,
since it was written by a cecessionist as a propaganda tool to encourage the
citizens of that state to cast off the weight of the "Tyrant's Heel" and
to enflame the South with rightious anger at the villainous Federal
Government that filled the streets of Baltimore with "patriotic gore."
Maryland, BTW, remained in the Union, so the song failed in its
purpose--and its purpose was certainly out of step with the government of
the State.
Or did they change the words to make it less political and inflamatory.
John Lupton
>From: wal...@thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson)
>Subject: Re: Any Decent State Songs?
>Date: 1 Jun 1995 15:30:19 GMT
>zn...@teleport.com wrote:
>: I don't know my current state song from Oregon, but I'm very partial to
>: the one from my former home, Maryland. The melody is the same as the
>: well-known Christmas carol "O Tannenbaum" ("Oh, Christmas Tree").
As a near-lifelong Delaware resident, I'd have to confess that Delaware is too
small to have its own state song, so we borrow Maryland's on weekends when
they're not using it...
Just kidding. Ha ha.
Seriously, Delaware's state song is "Our Delaware", a song even more difficult
to sing than "The Star Spangled Banner", but that didn't stop them from
forcing a generation of Delaware elementary school kids in the 60s (moi
included) to learn it. I still remember one verse and the chorus.
However, about 3 or 4 years ago a song titled "Delaware" appeared on the album
"The Road Home" by the outstanding Colorado-based bluegrass band Front Range.
The song was written by the band's lead singer and main songwriter Bob Amos,
who as it turns out is a native of Middletown, Delaware. It's a nice, easy
tune to remember and sing, the lyrics are evocative and also easy to remember.
There's more than a few of us who'd like to see it displace "Our Delaware",
but it's an uphill battle. The chorus from Bob Amos' "Delaware" goes:
Oh, Delaware keeps on calling me
What I wouldn't do to be there
For I'm weary of the road, and I feel so all alone
And I long to be home in Delaware
********************************************************************************
John Lupton, SAS Comm & Network Svcs, University of Pennsylvania
"Rural Free Delivery", WVUD-FM 91.3, Newark, Delaware
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/rfd.html
Brandywine Friends of Old Time Music
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/bfotm.html
Ted Samsel
: >How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 1
: >"Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelope play..."
: >The antelope cheats.
: Since you quoted from the official state song of Kansas (Home on the Range), I
: was wondering if anyone has any state/regional songs to suggest. All I can
: say for our song here in Kansas is that probably more people know it than any
: other state song (although they don't know they know it, if you know what I
: mean).
My wife, born in Topeka, said they sang a song to the tune of ACH DU
LIEBER AUGUSTINE that h ad only one line; which was:
"I'm from sunny Kansas, from Kansas, from Kansas"
ad infinitum....
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net.com/bh...@freenet-in-a.cwru.edu...
"driving a Hudson Hornet on the information superhighway"
Joel Mabus
sez it all!
Joel Mabus
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"I'll play it first and tell you what it is later."
Miles Davis
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Michael Brooke
So it looks as though it was written by Grigori Alexandrov, though I
: don't know if it's the same anthem as the official Soviet anthem.
Just to correct myself before anyone else does, with regard to
Alexandrov's first name, I got tripped up by the index in 'Testimony' (though as
Shostakovich didn't mention Alexandrov's first name, I imagine the
indexer simply confused him with the film-maker Grigori Alexandrov).
The composer's full name was in fact ALEXANDER Alexandrov (1883-1946),
who it seems died shortly after winning the anthem contest.
Michael
Bruce Blood
but a few years back the was quite a movement hereabout to change it to
"Louie, Louie". The legislature balked, of course, but did designate "L,L" the
*State Rock Song*. Never let it be said that Washington's politicos aren't
among the best in the creative-issue-ducking sweepstakes.
BTW: I believe the Ray Charles version of "Georgia on My Mind" IS now the
official Georgia State Song. A rare display of taste in such matters.
Bruce Blood blo...@scl.ci.seattle.wa.us
Richard Sheir
: In article <3qi2s3$o...@rand.org>,
: wal...@thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson) wrote:
: >The pitfall in this request is that about as many people know their state
: >song as know their official state flower, bug, fish or fungus. I've
: >always sort of figured mine was "California Here I Come", which is a
: >lively, if brainless piece of fluff, but I have this nagging feeling
: >that the *OFFICIAL* song is some utterly forgettable dirge, written by
: >some little old Victorian lady, about what a nice climate we have.
As an Ohioan, I like the TWO state songs. The traditional category has
Beautiful Ohio which is almost a waltz ("Drifting down the river on a
moonlit stream..."). I had to learn it in second grade and the melody
lingers.
The state's official rock song is Hang On Sloopy believe it or not; made
famous by Dayton's The McCoys. This song has been played for twenty years
by the Ohio State University Marching Band and has become a rally anthem.
In honor of the Marching Band it was made the state rock song. "Sloopy
lives in a very bad of town and everybody's trying to put my Sloopy down.
Well Sloopy I don't care what your mom and daddy do, 'cause Sloopy girl...
I'm in love with you. That's why I'm singin..." That's real Ohio
romanticicism....
BTW, did Born To Run become a state song in Joisy?
--
Richard
John Lupton
>From: sea...@sun25.cs.wisc.edu (Beverly Seavey)
>Subject: Re: Any Decent State Songs?
>"Your State's Name Here" by Lou and Peter Barryman
>You can use it for ant state.
Or...presuming you still have them...haul out your old Allan Sherman records.
I forget which album, but on one of them he does "Holiday For States" (to the
tune of "Holiday For Strings"...many of us codgers know it better as the theme
music for the old Red Skelton TV show) in which he mentions the name of every
state in rapid-fire fashion, ending with "...Connecti-CUT!!"
DaveHatunen
Edward Zuckerman <EdZ...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[...]
>Take Me Home Country Roads has been adopted by the State of West
>Virginia as its unofficial state song. It was featured in a video
>history project, recently shown on WV public television, and credited
>with being a major factor in helping WV's fast-growing tourism industry
>get off the ground.
And Oklahoma has adopted "Oklahoma!". One of the few state songs that's
actually fun to sing.
Kansas has "Home on the Range".
And the tune to Ohio's "Beautiful Ohio" is pretty enough to be
wallpaper music.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@netcom.com) **********
* Daly City California: almost San Francisco *
* but with parking and lower car insurance rates *
*******************************************************
Edward Zuckerman
writes:
Take Me Home Country Roads has been adopted by the State of West
Virginia as its unofficial state song. It was featured in a video
history project, recently shown on WV public television, and credited
with being a major factor in helping WV's fast-growing tourism industry
get off the ground.
Funny thing, Bill Danoff, who wrote it (not John Denver!!!), said he'd
never been to West Virginia. He didn't come to the Mountain State until
after it was a hit and, even at that, he only went to Harper's Ferry
which is located at the state's extreme eastern tip where the Shenandoah
and Potomac rivers converge to form the West Virginia-Virginia-Maryland
border.
daniel r. reitman, attorney to be
Connecticut, where I grew up, uses "Yankee Doodle". I think that falls into
the folk category, without dispute. :-)
I'm not sure what Oregon's is, but I can say that it better be better than the
U of O fight song. :-(
Daniel Reitman
"Plaintiff's birth certificate did not create a charitable trust; consequently,
there was no trust which could be terminated by notice. In the arena of
pleadings, the one at issue here is a slam-dunk frivolous complaint."
Lodi v. Lodi, 173 Cal. App. 3d 628, 630, 219 Cal. Rptr. 116, 118 (1985).
Roger Lustig
>In article <3qfr6a$e...@linda.teleport.com>, <zn...@teleport.com> wrote:
>>Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
>This is a non sequitur. Ha Tikva didn't just materialize in 1948, nor did
>the Moldau in whatever year Smetena wrote it. We are dealing with an old
>folk song - the exact origin of which we may never know. It seems to crop
>up in several cultures.
Right: see James J. Fuld, _The Book of World-Famous Music_.
>It seems likely, as someone has already posted, that
>Smetena borrowed the theme from some Czech folk melody (and then rearranged
>it a bit). Ha Tikva was a traditional Jewish song.
Actually, the words are by Naphtali Herz Imber (1856-1909). They first
appeared in conjunction with the melody in 1895, the melody being called
"Syrian" (a synonym for Jewish in those days!) in the publication.
>Whether the melody was
>originally Czech or Jewish or whatever is the question of this thread. When
See Fuld--it could even be Swedish. The basic pattern of the tune is found
in a half-dozen cultures.
>Smetena wrote the Moldau is partly irrelevent (since the theme is not
>originally his - although he has changed it a bit); when Israel was founded
>is entirely irrelevent (the thread is about Ha Tikva, not Israel - who cares
>when Israel was founded?).
Besides, it was the anthem of Zionism from 1897 onward...
Roger
Joe Felsenstein
>Take Me Home Country Roads has been adopted by the State of West
>Virginia as its unofficial state song.
...
>Funny thing, Bill Danoff, who wrote it (not John Denver!!!), said he'd
>never been to West Virginia. He didn't come to the Mountain State until
>after it was a hit and, even at that, he only went to Harper's Ferry
>which is located at the state's extreme eastern tip where the Shenandoah
>and Potomac rivers converge to form the West Virginia-Virginia-Maryland
>border.
The song mentions the Blue Ridge (Mountain) and the Shenandoah River.
Both are overwhelmingly located in the western part of Virginia, and only graze
West Virginia at its northeast corner for a short distance.
I always assumed that the "-ern" was left out because of the meter, and that
the author was thinking of western Virginia, not West Virginia. Or he misread
his map.
-----
Joe Felsenstein j...@genetics.washington.edu (IP No. 128.95.12.41)
Dept. of Genetics, Univ. of Washington, Box 357360, Seattle, WA 98195-7360
Belvoir
be adopted formally as the state song of Washington. As songs go, they
don't come a whole lot better.
dick greenhaus <digi...@world.std.com>
Dick Wisan
>
> Yes, you'd think Texas would have picked something nifty like
> "The Yellow Rose of Texas" or "Deep in the Heart of Texas", but
> instead they have a very proper hymn-like song called "Texas Our
> Texas".
I thought Texans stood up when you play "I've Been Working On The
Railroad".
--
R. N. (Dick) Wisan - Email: internet WIS...@hartwick.edu
- Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A.
- Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax.
-Watson,P.L.
Growing up in Oklahoma, I was subjected to years to
our stupid state song "Oklahoma", from the Rogers
and Hammerstein musical of the same name. About the
only positive thing you can say about it is that
it is known to just about EVERYONE in the US, and
probably in much of the English speaking world.
Needless to say, I doubt that either Rogers or
Hammerstein were Okies, or they would never have
written such an undignified song (or musical, for
that matter.)
Besides, there are some much better alternatives.
"The Ever Lasting Hills of Oklahoma" comes to mind.
Sorry, I guess the subject line says "Decent State
Songs." So, never mind.
Paul Watson, plwa...@att.com
AT&T - Bell Laboratories
Michael Croft
Wisan) wrote:
> In article <1995May3...@ssht01.hou130.chevron.com>,
> nor...@ssht01.hou130.chevron.com (Ruth Cross) writes:
> >
> > Yes, you'd think Texas would have picked something nifty like
> > "The Yellow Rose of Texas" or "Deep in the Heart of Texas", but
> > instead they have a very proper hymn-like song called "Texas Our
> > Texas".
>
> I thought Texans stood up when you play "I've Been Working On The
> Railroad".
Just because our state University has dorms with their own zip codes does
not mean that the U.T. song is the state song. Some of us have neither a
UT ring nor past that involves working on a railroad. :)
Texas is, IMHO, too diverse to have an interesting state song. If there
were a good candidate that mentioned any positive feature of any part of
the state, all the other parts would complain that it didn't mention
them. And everyone would complain if it mentioned Dallas in a positive
way.
I've changed my mind. My vote is for The_Austin_Lounge_Lizards song "I'm
Going Back to Dallas, Texas to See if Anything Could Be Worse Than Losing
You."
--
Michael Croft
#Disclaimer: These views msy not be my employer's, but you could ask her if it was important to you...#
http://starbase.neosoft.com/~kaetron/Muse/ -- Ceili's Muse web page
http://starbase.neosoft.com/~kaetron/ --Kaetron Software
Ton Maas
jonat...@aol.com (JonathBlue) wrote:
>The Israeli National Anthem "Ha Tikvah" (which means "Hope") is very
>moving. It is in a minor key (I believe) and has a beautiful, bittersweet
>melody.
How about the Dutch national anthem? It has a very pretty melody and a
striking set of lyrics, which are supposedly spoken by our "founding
father", William of Orange-Nassau. It contains some unusual statements (for
a national anthem that is):
"Wilhelmus van Nassauwe ben ik van Duitsen bloed..."
(I am William of Nassau, of German blood)
This the first line, the opening statement, so to speak. But it gets
better even in the first verse:
"...den Koning van Hispanje heb ik altijd ge-eerd"
(I have always honoured the Spanish king)
Quite a nation we have, don't we? Our sixteenth century founder (who was
probably hoping to receive the crown of a new Dutch kingdom but had to
settle for the position of "stadtholder" - acting governor - of the first
Republic of the United Netherlands. We didn't start any kingdom until after
Napoleon's defeat in 1815.) starts out admitting he's not even Dutch but
German.
Ton Maas, Amsterdam NL
Aaron R. Priven
aur...@max.tiac.net (Kathy Johnson) wrote:
>I believe that after lengthy debate in the legislature (do they ever have
>short ones?:) Arlo Guthrie's "Massachusetts" was named the second state song.
>Please don't ask me what the first one is....
Does that mean the Guthries have two state songs to their credit
(Massachusetts and Roll On, Columbia)?
Of course, it seems Washington has three different state songs
depending on who you ask, but...
(And what about "Oklahoma Hills"? I've always been fond of "Do Re Mi"
myself. Are there any states they haven't written about?)
=Aaron=
--
Aaron Priven; San Jose, CA, USA. aa...@chrysopylae.com, aar...@best.com
Self-indulgent home page: <URL:http://www.chrysopylae.com/>
Edie Gale Hays
: Patrick Knight (kni...@ksu.ksu.edu) wrote:
: : In article <3qfajb$k...@linda.teleport.com> zn...@teleport.com writes:
: : >How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 1
: : >"Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelope play..."
: : >The antelope cheats.
: : Since you quoted from the official state song of Kansas (Home on the Range)
: The last time I was in Kansas, I heard *lots* of discouraging words. :-)
Come now! Whenever someone on the range says Oh S--T!, they are only
naming what they just stepped in. It' s not discouraging, it's merely
stating a fact.
: zn...@teleport.COM (M. Edward Borasky)
: How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 2
: "Are you going to Scarborough Fair?"
: No.
I like this one!
Edie
Eric Cohen
: zn...@teleport.com wrote:
< SNIP >
: : Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
: However, the Jewish people has been in existence for more than 5000
: Smetana got his hands on it.
The story I know (wish I could point to a reference) is that the
ur-source is an Eastern European folk song. "HaTikvah" (the Israeli
national anthem) was originally a partisan song, and of course they
borrowed the melody from the songs they knew -- such as, an Eastern
European folk song. Smetana borrowed the same melody for the "Moldau".
To our ears, knowing the "Moldau" and HaTikvah, but not the source they
both drew on, the coincidence sounds awfully funny.
-- Eric | Why should I live in the moment
e...@eastgate.com | When I can live inside my head?
** Please note the new address, **
** same old random babbling. **
Kathy Johnson
Joe Felsenstein
Charles Ehrlich <ehr...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> ... We are dealing with an old
>folk song - the exact origin of which we may never know. It seems to crop
>Smetena borrowed the theme from some Czech folk melody (and then rearranged
and Eric (e...@eastgate.com) said:
>The story I know (wish I could point to a reference) is that the
>ur-source is an Eastern European folk song. "HaTikvah" (the Israeli
>national anthem) was originally a partisan song, and of course they
>borrowed the melody from the songs they knew
Some partisans may have sung it, but here's what the Fireside Book of Folk
Songs said about it in 1947:
"'Hatikvah (The Hope) was written in 1878 by the Hebrew poet Nephtali Herz
Imber and was set to music by Samuel Cohen, one of the pioneer settlers
in Rishon Le Zion, Palestine. The song was taken up by the Palestine
colonists and became an anthem of the Zionist movement after it was organized
in 1897. The melody is based on a Czechoslovakian folk song. (Sophie A.
Udin, Director of the Zionist Archives and Library).'"
(I have put two sets of quotes here because in the book the passage has one
set of quotes around it -- presumably because the statement is a quote of
what Udin said to them.)
If Ha Tikvah itself was a traditional Jewish song, in the sense of being a folk
song, it would be hard to explain why it was in Hebrew when most others were in
Yiddish (in Eastern Europe anyway) or why Nephtali Herz Imber would attempt
to claim credit for it when everyone around him already knew it. I conclude
that he wrote the words, which were not traditional, and that it was "set to
music" by Cohen.
That still doesn't settle the issue of whether Cohen set it to
(1) a Czechoslovakian folk song,
(2) to a Jewish folk song,
(3) to Smetana's "The Moldau" which wasn't copied from a folk song,
or (4) to Smetana's "The Moldau" which was itself copied from a folk song.
To resolve that we need to locate someone on rec.music.folk.czech,
rec.music.folk.slovak, or rec.music.folk.jewish and have them tell us whether
there is any such folksong.
(And in any case there is no reason for anyone to get upset at the assertion
that the Israeli national anthem uses a non-Jewish tune, given where the tune
for the U.S. national anthem comes from.)
-----
Joe Felsenstein j...@genetics.washington.edu (IP No. 128.95.12.41)
Dept. of Genetics, Univ. of Washington, Box 357360, Seattle, WA 98195-7360
TRIVIA FACT: The organist at the funeral of Gregor Mendel was Leos Janacek,
who was educated at the monastery school where Mendel had taught and where
Mendel was abbot. In effect, Mendel was Janacek's high school principal, and
maybe his science teacher too.
NE...@cunyvm.cuny.edu
and "Yiddish-ized" them! The Ha Tikvah indeed had an origin in a Czech or
Slovak folk song, but Cohen didn't just take it as it was, any more than did
Smetana. Give credit where it is due. Neil McKelvie
hansenjj
> Washington's state song "Washington My Home" is as bland as they come,
> but a few years back the was quite a movement hereabout to change it to
> "Louie, Louie". The legislature balked, of course, but did designate "L,L" the
> *State Rock Song*. Never let it be said that Washington's politicos aren't
> among the best in the creative-issue-ducking sweepstakes.
Washington State Song: "Washington My Home" (Victorian, bland)
Washington State Folk Song: "Roll On Columbia" ("Your power is turning our darkness to dawn..."
( ...and our salmon into sashimi.))
Washington State Rock Song: "Louie, Louie" (Good beat, you can dance to it)
Pretty decent, huh?
John H., Yakima, WA (hans...@wolfe.net)
Deja Pooh
Newman... Any song that starts "Hate New York City..." is fine by me...
:)
Deja Pooh
heard. I have a Pete Seeger Rendeition of it... Singing it with about
20,000 people he had just taught (as only pete can do).
Joseph C Fineman
>See Fuld--it could even be Swedish. The basic pattern of the tune is found
>in a half-dozen cultures.
Once upon a time, I heard Pete Seeger (maybe even on a record)
introduce "When I First Came To This Land" by singing scraps of
familiar tunes that bore some resemblance to it, including "Hatikvah"
& the tune to which American children sing the alphabet.
Of course, that doesn't prove that they have a common origin. It
doesn't even prove that they form a kind with natural boundaries.
Conceivably, any two tunes in the world might be connected by chains
of tunes in which successive links differed as little as the tunes
mentioned differ from one another. And if that is not so now, it
might become so: I gather that something on the order of 10^5 "new"
tunes are *copyrighted* every year. Furthermore, somebody recently
programmed a computer to recombine phrases from existing popular
tunes, had it compose thousands of them, and copyrighted *them*.
When song space becomes a continuum, how many dimensions will it have?
%^)
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
James McNeil
>I don't know my current state song from Oregon, but I'm very partial to
>the one from my former home, Maryland. The melody is the same as the
>well-known Christmas carol "O Tannenbaum" ("Oh, Christmas Tree").
Oregon's state song is a hymn-like one called "Oregon, My Oregon." I
don't know that it could be called "decent"! I think it's time we wrote
a better song for Oregon. ;-)
Lianne
--
+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:
Lianne or Jim McNeil Water those flowers you want to grow.
Florence Rapp
For what little it's worth, the Missouri Waltz (is that the official state
song?) and On the Banks of the Wabash (Indiana) sound awfully pretty in
their 19th century way to my turn-of-the-millenium ears.
Florence
J. A. Stiller
In article <3qiib0$s...@kelly.teleport.com> , zn...@teleport.com writes:
>I don't know my current state song from Oregon, but I'm very partial to
>the one from my former home, Maryland. The melody is the same as the
>well-known Christmas carol "O Tannenbaum" ("Oh, Christmas Tree").
I grew up in Maryland. It has *fine* state song, "Maryland, My
Maryland," to the tune noted, written by James Ryder Randall (1839-1908).
He was a Baltimore-born professor of English and classics in Louisiana
in the early 1860s. According to the biographical notes in the Library
of America's "American Poetry, 19th Century," volume 2, "On reading of
violence attending passage of the 6th Massachusetts Regiment through
Baltimore in April 1861, he wrote 'Maryland, My Maryland.' Published in
the New Orleans 'Delta' of April 26, poem quickly achieved popularity
throughout the South; set to music (to a tune adapted from the
German 'Tannenbaum') , became quasi-official battle song of Confederacy."
You can read all of the words in the Library of America volume mentioned
above, under the name "Maryland."
Bear in mind that Maryland was essentially a Southern state. The western
part of the state was more like Pennsylvania (agricultural, German and
Scots-Irish), but the rest of the state was much more like Virginia. It
would have been terribly awkward to have the capital of the United States
entirely surrounded by the Confederacy, so Lincoln put the members of
the Legislature under house arrest so that they couldn't convene and vote
to secede.
The first verse of the song goes like this:
The despot's heel is on thy shore,
Maryland, my Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door,
Maryland, my Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore
That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be thy battle-queen of yore,
Maryland! My Maryland!
It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to figure out that the
"despot" in question was Abraham Lincoln. I like the song because it's
such a great period piece, and because blood-thirsty anthems tend, as the
authors intended, to be rousing. (La Marseilleise, of course, being the
primier example of the genre.)
Jenny
Joe Felsenstein
Happily. However until someone on rec.music.folk.czech comes up with the
folk tune we don't know whether Cohen had the talent to pick up and alter
Smetana's tune, to use an unmodified Czech folk tune, or to modify the Czech
folk tune. If you have the information about the original tune, and it
sounds as if you must, then please post about it.
Cohen, of course, wasn't living in Eastern Europe, but I assume he came from
there.
James K. Miller
In a previous article, ehr...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Charles Ehrlich) says:
>In article <3qfr6a$e...@linda.teleport.com>, <zn...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>>Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
>
>This is a non sequitur. Ha Tikva didn't just materialize in 1948, nor did
>the Moldau in whatever year Smetena wrote it. We are dealing with an old
>folk song - the exact origin of which we may never know. It seems to crop
>up in several cultures. It seems likely, as someone has already posted, that
>Smetena borrowed the theme from some Czech folk melody (and then rearranged
>it a bit). Ha Tikva was a traditional Jewish song. Whether the melody was
>originally Czech or Jewish or whatever is the question of this thread. When
>Smetena wrote the Moldau is partly irrelevent (since the theme is not
>originally his - although he has changed it a bit); when Israel was founded
>is entirely irrelevent (the thread is about Ha Tikva, not Israel - who cares
>when Israel was founded?).
>
>Charles Ehrlich
>Wolfson College (Oxford)
>
>
>
I didn_t see the earlier messages on this thread, but I_ll throw in mention
of a national anthem of superior quality which is a national anthem no
more. Hanns Eisler wrote the Hymn of the German Democratic Republic (East
Germany) in 1949, set to a text by Johannes Becher. (<Auferstanden aus
Ruinen>) This anthem used to be heard with clockwork regularity at the
Summer and Winter Olympics, and I used to take pleasure about being in
the know about its origins. Of course, it will be heard no more. I don_t
know where one could find a recording of it, except on Deutsche Schall-
platten LPs, which are also no more. Maybe Berlin Classics will someday
put something out which contains this solemn hymn written out of the rubble
of the World War.
Ted Samsel
: In article <1995Jun2.1...@hartwick.edu>, wis...@hartwick.edu (Dick
: Wisan) wrote:
: > In article <1995May3...@ssht01.hou130.chevron.com>,
: > nor...@ssht01.hou130.chevron.com (Ruth Cross) writes:
: > >
: > > Yes, you'd think Texas would have picked something nifty like
: > > "The Yellow Rose of Texas" or "Deep in the Heart of Texas", but
: > > instead they have a very proper hymn-like song called "Texas Our
: > > Texas".
: >
: > I thought Texans stood up when you play "I've Been Working On The
: > Railroad".
: Just because our state University has dorms with their own zip codes does
: not mean that the U.T. song is the state song. Some of us have neither a
: UT ring nor past that involves working on a railroad. :)
: Texas is, IMHO, too diverse to have an interesting state song. If there
: were a good candidate that mentioned any positive feature of any part of
: the state, all the other parts would complain that it didn't mention
: them. And everyone would complain if it mentioned Dallas in a positive
: way.
: I've changed my mind. My vote is for The_Austin_Lounge_Lizards song "I'm
: Going Back to Dallas, Texas to See if Anything Could Be Worse Than Losing
: You."
Well, you could use anther Austin Lounge Lizards' chune:
"THAT GODFORSAKEN HELLHOLE I CALL HOME".
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net.com/bh...@freenet-in-a.cwru.edu...
"driving a Hudson Hornet on the information superhighway"
Bruce Blood
snip
> Washington's state song is "Roll on Columbia" by none other
> than Woodie Guthrie. I guess that makes it a folk song.
Are you sure about this??? I was forced to learn "Washington
My Home" some 35 (yikes!) years ago as the state song, and I
don't think it has officially changed since then. I'd LOVE to be
proved wrong. "Roll On Columbia" gets my vote, but I'm not
a legislator:-).
-Bruce
Bruce Blood
> Washington State Song: "Washington My Home" (Victorian, bland)
> Washington State Folk Song: "Roll On Columbia" ("Your power is turning our darkness to dawn..."
> ( ...and our salmon into sashimi.))
> Washington State Rock Song: "Louie, Louie" (Good beat, you can dance to it)
So we're ALL right. I love it. Don't our fine reps in Olympia just know make everyone
happy.
BTW: Not only have I danced to L-L, I've played it more times than I can remember -
and a few that I can! I agree with whoever inferred in a previous post that *State Song*
was aiming low. When was the last time you saw anyone frugging or moshing to the
*Star Bangled Spanner*?
Me gotta go, Ay yi, yi, Yi, yi, yi, -Bruce
mhr...@delphi.com
Well, I don't know the offical state song of Mississippi, but it's hard to
beat good ol' "Dixie"!
A True Believer,
Michael H. Ross
Oxford, Mississippi
Christopher E. Cane
>
>BTW, did Born To Run become a state song in Joisy?
>--
>Richard
Yeah! Baby, I was born to Run! Springsteen.
stewart james
Probably the best state song was, Boola Boola, until it was changed to
something like Oh Beautiful Massachussets (or was it Connecticut).
Michigan my Michigan is nice, but it's just like Maryland, Tannenbaum,
the Red Flag, etc. Florida's got Swanee River, which has been somewhat
improved (BTW best ever recording of Swanee River was made years
ago by Tommy Dorsey, second place goes to Ray Charles (Once of Greenville
Florida)).
One of the least known state songs is By the Rivers Gently Flowing, Illinois.
It is a lovely song that nobody knows.
ACJames
Best damn state song out there is "Your State's Name Here" by..who is it,
the same folks who wrote "The F-Word Song". I'd go dig out the recordings
but this on-line time is costin' me a bundle. First verse:
Sometimes when the grass is blown by the breeze
Threre's a far away look in the leaves of the trees
A memory returns, heartbreaking clear,
Of a place I call home,
(Your state's name here).
CHORUS:
Oh (Your state's name here),Again, what a state.
I have not been back in (a a reasonable date)
Where the asphalt grows soft in July every year.
In the place I call home, (your state's name here).
There's more....
john_hansen
>
> I'm not sure what Oregon's is, but I can say that it better be better than the
> U of O fight song. :-(
>
What's best, my home state's State Song, "Here We Have Idaho", IS the
U of I song, with only "...Alma Mater, Our Idaho" changed to "...Singing of Idaho."
(Okay, so it's the school anthem, not the fight song. The fight song's only words
are " I --- D --- A - H - O, Idaho, Idaho, Go, Go, Go!") (We're a simple folk.)
(Nice version of HWHI a la Leo Kottke is on Michael Wendling's album, "There's Something
About the Arco Desert" on Sheepeater Records. Tune is also called "Garden of Paradise.")
John H. (ambivalent Esq.), Yakima, WA
ghost
>ghost (j...@endor.harvard.edu) wrote:
>: In article <3qfan4$k...@linda.teleport.com> zn...@teleport.com writes:
>: >JonathBlue (jonat...@aol.com) wrote:
>: >: The Israeli National Anthem "Ha Tikvah" (which means "Hope") is very
>: >: moving. It is in a minor key (I believe) and has a beautiful, bittersweet
>: >: melody.
>: >It is also from a well-known classical composition, "The Moldau", by
>: >Smetana.
>: Nope: Smetana, in "The Moldau", steals what was either a local (Chezch?)
>: folk tune or a local Jewish folk tune, messes around with the key its in to
>: make it sound "more uplifting", rearranges it a bit, & puts his name on it.
>: Typical story. When classical composers wanted something with ethnic
>: flavor they usually just swiped something from the local ethnics, but many
>: did acknowledge their sources. I don't know about Smetana.
>Israel was founded in 1948. "The Moldau" was written much earlier.
The tune of Hatikvah, aka "The Moldau", is found in the Sabbath morning
(prayer) service, at least in the version on a tape I bought (which sounds
just as trad as I could have hoped for, even though some of the other melodies
used are familiar alternates to the ones I really wanted, learned in
childhood). So...it pays to buy those rabbi tapes! Tape is in the car;
I'll get you reference later if you like.
The Jewish Sabbath morning prayer service, is, needless to say, mostly
"written much earlier" than Smetana's lifetime.
The tune in question could still be a Czech (or whatever) folk tune which
found its way in to the Jewish service as performed across eastern Europe;
stranger things have happened, & people did trade tunes in those days when
they had a good one. I seriously doubt it was taken from Smetana's
composition & didn't appear before that, but as I don't know if cantors were
given to transcribing the service as best they could into western
notation, which is severely inadequate to the task, I don't know if I
could prove this origin to your satisfaction. Check this reference out in
alt.music.jewish if you can get that newsgroup at your site; I can't, as
we don't get this or many other alt groups here.
Michael L. Siemon
wrote:
+The Jewish Sabbath morning prayer service, is, needless to say, mostly
+"written much earlier" than Smetana's lifetime.
Bad assumption.
--
Michael L. Siemon (m...@panix.com)
"Of course, we cannot guarantee our Bibles against
normal wear and abuse." -- Oxford University Press
Deja Pooh
great idea...
Gabriel M. Kuper
>
> The tune of Hatikvah, aka "The Moldau", is found in the Sabbath morning
> (prayer) service, at least in the version on a tape I bought (which sounds
> just as trad as I could have hoped for, even though some of the other melodies
> used are familiar alternates to the ones I really wanted, learned in
> childhood). So...it pays to buy those rabbi tapes! Tape is in the car;
> I'll get you reference later if you like.
>
>
The words were. Since the music was never written down, the tunes
could be traditional or not. Unless you give us some information
about the provenance of the version you're referring to, we can't tell.
(For example, if what you have is the version by Bloch, it--if not
necessarily all the tunes--postdate Smetana by a century).
Gabriel Kuper
Noemi
forgettable, since I can only recall part of the chorus. But not a bad
song...unless, as many people will, you hold the "shhh" sound instead of
the "i" sound on the long notes. In elementary school, I remember the
entire class singing "Michhhhhhhhigan, my Michhhhhhigan", sounding like
a pitful of small but dangerous vipers.
I don't remember who wrote "Your State's Name Here", but the Chenille
Sisters recorded it on one of their CDs. I agree, it's one of the best.
Noemi
cathy rytmeister
> the thread is about Ha Tikva
>
>
> Charles Ehrlich
> Wolfson College (Oxford)
>
>
Some Jewish jazz musicians of my acquaintance claim that if you play
Ha Tikva in the major (rather than minor) key, you get something like
the tune of "I'm a little teapot, short and stout...". :-)
Cathy R.
Kerry Dexter
Florida State Song? and there are a number of good contemporary songs
about Florida-Charles Atkins has written a blues song-title escapes
me- that is or was being considered for state song status a few years
back. Some other ones I like-"I'm Florida, need I say more?" which I've
heard Jeannie Fichten sing, I don't know if she wrote it; "Florida
daydream" Robin Plitt; "Florida Moon" Charley Groth; "OBserve the
great Blue heron" Marie Nofsinger
--
kerry dexter
Peter Breiner
>
>
>
> I didn_t see the earlier messages on this thread, but I_ll throw in mention
> of a national anthem of superior quality which is a national anthem no
> more. Hanns Eisler wrote the Hymn of the German Democratic Republic (East
> Germany) in 1949, set to a text by Johannes Becher.
Sorry, what's so superior about it...?
Peter Breiner
ghost
>Some Jewish jazz musicians of my acquaintance claim that if you play
>Ha Tikva in the major (rather than minor) key, you get something like
>the tune of "I'm a little teapot, short and stout...". :-)
Yup, its true. Thank you for this contribution to my life.
I will now never be able to forget it.
Of course, "The Moldau" *is* major key, so start singing along at your next
classical concert!
Deborah Kapell
>In article <3r4nea$4...@necco.harvard.edu>, j...@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost ) writes:
>>
>> The tune of Hatikvah, aka "The Moldau", is found in the Sabbath morning
>> (prayer) service, at least in the version on a tape I bought (which sounds
>> just as trad as I could have hoped for, even though some of the other melodies
>> used are familiar alternates to the ones I really wanted, learned in
>> childhood). So...it pays to buy those rabbi tapes! Tape is in the car;
>> I'll get you reference later if you like.
>>
>> The Jewish Sabbath morning prayer service, is, needless to say, mostly
>> "written much earlier" than Smetana's lifetime.
>>
>
>The words were. Since the music was never written down, the tunes
>could be traditional or not. Unless you give us some information
>about the provenance of the version you're referring to, we can't tell.
My congregation, which is conservative but not without a sense of humor,
had done Adonolum (part of the Sabbath service) to the tune of "Clementine"
and the theme from the Addams Family. The more traditional tunes are
in no danger of being replaced.
Andrew Rogers
>BTW, did Born To Run become a state song in Joisy?
That move failed, but I recall that the Governor or Legislature or somebody
did issue an official proclamation declaring its "special meaning" to the
beat-crazed teens of New Jersey.
This beat-crazed middle-ager hereby issues an unofficial proclamation that
"Born To Run" is the last truly great 45 ever recorded.
Andrew
-Watson,P.L.
else would talk about who wrote "Your State's Name
Here", but I haven't seen it, so...
The song was written by Peter and Lou Berryman of
Madison, WI. I can't remember which album it first
appeared on, but they have a "greatest hits"
compilation out now which includes "Your State's
Name Here". They are a little on the bizzare side,
but quite good, so you may want to start with the
collection of "hits" and expand from there.
They also wrote "Why Am I Painting the Living Room",
probably their most popular song. Claudia Schmidt
and Sally Rogers performed it together a few years
ago. They also wrote "The February March", a song
well understood by anyone from da Great White
North. The F-Word Song. Many others.
They put on a quite enjoyable show if they ever come
your way.
Paul Watson, plwa...@att.com
AT&T - Bell Laboratories
--------------------------------------
In article <3r7430$g...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Noemi <noemi....@mailgw.uprod.music.umich.edu> wrote:
[some deleted]