Billy Bragg Live Tapes Wanted For Trade
Steve Andrews
Hello
I've a new subscriber and am newish to the net so please forgive me if this
turns up posted on a tropical fish site or elsewhere it shouldn't be.
Anyway altough i'm new to this technology I'm not so new to collecting Billy
Bragg tapes. A list of my tapes is below.
If anyone would like a list with (incomplete and possibly in some cases
inaccurate!) track listings please e-mail me at;
I'm afraid the list is a bit of a mess as I haven't updated it since early
last year. There are no quality gradings but I can provide further info as
required. Also some of the timings might be a little inaccurate and other
shows are listed twice. Though most have some kind of track listing though
occasionally there are errors and/or omissions.
If, despite the above, you still fancy trading please let me know.
I'm particularly looking for pre 1984 gigs and anything from election night
last year onwards. Has anyone ever seen a tape of the Roundhouse gig from
September 1996 listed? I went but didn't bother taping it foolishly thinking
that Camden would be awash with tapes by the following weekend. I'd also
love a decent tape of last years May Day bash as my walkman was playing up
and the tape is un-listenable.
Thanks very much. The list is below and hopefully I might hear from you
soon.
Cheers
Steve Andrews
1978- Riff Raff - Cosmonaut EP & the 4 Geezer Singles 40
1983 04 November 1983 Edinburgh 40
1983 10 November 1983 London Venue 40
1984 04 May 1984 Peterborough Fleet Centre (????)-With Riff Raff
1984 06 April 1984 Aklam Hall 45
1984 09 December 1984 Stockholm Kolinsburg 85 Min
1984 09 February 1984 Westfield College *
1984 10 February 1984 Old Grey Whistle Test Peformance 5
1984 10 June 1984 Southbank London (2 Sets?) 45
1984 10 May 1984 Electric Ballroom
1984 11 December 1984 Iyvaskala : Finland
1984 12 February 1984 London Lyceum
1984 12 July 1984 Schauburg, Bremen Germany 50
1984 13 February 1984 Bristol
1984 19 October 1984 Glasgow Q.M.
1984 20 October 1984 BBC Radio 1 Live In Concert 35
1984 20 October 1984 Radio 1 Janice Long Interview 25
1984 22 September 1984 Rotterdam, Holland 15
1985 07 July 1985 Battersea Park (Full Inc. As Duckbill Patterson*) 90
1985 07 July 1985 Battersea Park (GLC) 50
1985 07 July 1985 London Batersea Park (As Duckbill Patterson) 20
1985 07 March 1985 Gary Crowley Session 30
1985 13 March 1985 Leicester Polytechnic
1985 13 September 1985 Stirling Miners (Secret Gig) 80 Min
1985 17 October 1985 BBC In Concert - Paris Studios 60
1985 18 December 1985 Janice Long Live Session 35min
1985 18 June 1985 Bill As DJ on WNYO Radio (USA) 60
1985 19 March 1985 Guilford Civic Hall (Inc Soundcheck) 90
1985 21 June 1985 Glastonbury 35min
1985 21 March 1985 Southend Pavilion
1985 22 June 1985 Milton Keynes
1985 22 March 1985 Nottingham Vic Leisure Centre 60
1985 27 April 1985 Glasgow Barrowlands 65
1985 27 April 1985 Glasgow Rally 20
1985 28 June 1985 Roskilde Festival 20
1985 28 November 1985 NDR Session
1985? Breakfast TV Interview & 1 Track
1986 05 December 1986 Vancouver 86th St Music Hall 90
1986 12 November 1986 Kilburn National Ballroom 90?
1986 17 October 1986 NY Lonestar Cafe 90(?)
1986 20 June 1986 Glastonbury Accoustic Tent
1986 21 June 1986 Glastonbury Second Stage 45min Aprox
1986 21 March 1986 Red Wedge (First Tape Of 1 Only) Hammersmith Odeon
1986 23 November 1986 Bill Ayres USA Radio Show 60
1986 25 January 1986 Manchester Theatre (Red Wedge- Whole Show)
1986 30 July 1986 Gary Crowley Session 30
1986 Ostbercon Lieersommer ?
1986 The Olympia Theatre, Dublin, Ireland 10 min
1987 Christchurch, New Zealand (edited down) 80
1987 01 February 1987 Shepton Mallet Cheese Pavilion
1987 01 March 1987 Wellington Uni 90
1987 03 March 1987 Dunedin Otago Uni 60/90?
1987 07 March 1987 Wellington, New Zeland 100
1987 08 June 1987 Islington *
1987 10 November 1987 Birmingham Hummingbird 85
1987 18 July 1987 Vancouver Folk Festival 20
1987 19 June 1987 Glastonbury (Covers Set) 60?
1987 23 August 1987 Mean Fiddler (& Riff Raff) 90?
1987 24 August 1987 Mean Fidler(minus R.Raff) 90
1987 25 August 1987 Riff Raff Reunion -Mean Fiddler, Harlesden, London 35
1987 26 September 1987 SFX Theatre, Dublin, Ireland 80min
1987 30 January 1987 Channel 4 Wales Interview 5
1987 31 January 1987 Radio Wales Interview 15
1988 07 October 1988 Austin, TX 45min
1988 10 March 1988 Stereodrone Rai Studios, Italy 45
1988 23 July 1988 Mikkeli Festival 10
1988 24 April 1988 Boston Berlee Centre 90
1988 27 October 1988 New York Music Seminar 30
1989 26 August 1989 Reading Festival 90*
1989 29 September 1989 Madrid 80
1989 Which Side Are You On Soundtrack From Video 45
1990 23 May 1990 Barcelona 90?
1990 24 August 1990 Mean Fiddler 60 + 60
1990 25 September 1990 Reading Festival 60?
1990- Interviews Etc (1990-92) 90
1991 Charleston, West Virginia, Canada 15
1991 02 November 1991 Town & Country Club 105
1991 07 October 1991 Amsterdam Melkweg, Holland 25
1991 12 December 1991 SF Warfield 90 + 90?
1991 13 October 1991 Town & Country Club 100
1991 15 June 1991 Radio 1 John Peel Session 10
1991 15 March 1991 Boderline (3 Tracks Only)
1991 15 March 1991 Borderline, London With REM As Bingo Handjob 45
1991 19 August 1991 John Peel Session ?
1991 19 January 1991 Wembly Arena (Great British Music Weekend) 10
1991 19 January 1991 Wembly Arena, London 10
1991 20 April 1991 Sullivan Stadium, Foxbro, MA 25m
1991 23 August 1991 Fiele Festival, Ireland 45
1991 26 December 1991 Mountain Stage Radio (USA) 15?
1991 27 October 1991 Bristol Studio
1991 28 April 1991 Charlston, West Vir. 25
1991 31 December 1991 Hackney Empire (With Kirsty MacColl) 90
1991 Steve Wright Show 45
1991( Radio 1 Richard Coles Interview (The Mix) 20
1991? Fantastic Voyage - Short Comedy Scetch 5
1991? Johnny Walker Interview 10
1991? Nicky Campbell Interview & Session 50
1991? R1 Neil James Interview Re. Dont Try This At Home 10
1992 Radio 1 Round Table 90?
1992 03 January 1992 R1 Newsbeat Interview 5
1992 26 June 1992 Glastonbury Festival 75
1992 28 June 1992 Glastonbury 90
1992 30 December 1992 Hackney Empire 90
1993 13 November 1993 With Nataile Merchant On The Andy Kershaw Show 5
1993 14 September 1993 Chris Evans - Virgin Radio Show 10
1993 15 July 1993 The Garage, Highbury, London 85
1993 18 January 1994 3 Poems Rec For Mark Radcliffe Show(18,19 & 20 Jan 10
1993 25 November 1993 Small Bit From Mark Radcliffe Show(Part Only) 5
1993- Interviews Etc (1993-95) 90
1994 Mark Radcliffe Show - Favourite Poems 15
1994 Radio 1 Interview (From Protest Show?) 10
1994 Radio 1 Mark Radcliffe Interview 30
1994 Radio 1 Protest Show (Edited) 30
1994 Radio Mark Radcliffe Poetry 15
1994 03 April 1994 Various Bits From Signs Of The Times (3,17,24/4/94
1994 03 February 1994 Looking Forward To The Past - BBC R4 History Quiz 30
1994 29 November 1994 Int From The Story Of Pop 5
1994 Small Bit From Music Machine - BBC R3 8
1994? 07 December 1993 Looking For An Old England - BBC R4 Pt 2 25
1994? 14 December 1993 Looking For An Old England - BBC R4 Pt 3 25
1994? 30 November 1993 Looking For An Old England - BBC R4 Pt 1 25
1995 07 September 1995 Small Bit from Phil Jupitus Show 10
1995 10 November 1995 House Of Blues, Hollywood, CA (KNACKARED) 100m
1995 11 July 1995 R1 Clingfilm Show - Choosing 3 Favourite Films 5
1995 11 October 1995 Los Angeles 90?
1995 13 October 1995 John Peel Session & Interview 40
1995 13 October 1995 John Peel Show - Session & Chat
1995 13 October 1995 Radio 1 John Peel Session 15
1995 15 June 1995 Simon Mayo R1 Show (Includes Confession) 15
1995 15 June 1995 Simon Mayo Show
1995 17 November 1995 Minneapolis 1st Ave 90 + 60
1995 24 June 1995 Glastonbury - R1 Int. & 3 songs 35
1995 24 June 1995 Glastonbury 95 (Incomplete) 25
1995 24 June 1995 Glastonbury Festival 15
1995 Song That Changed His Life - Soundbite 5
1995- Interviews Etc (1995-96) 90
1995? 10 January 1995 Billy Bragg Amongst The British - BBC R4 Pt 1 25
1995? 17 January 1995 Billy Bragg Amongst The British - BBC R4 Pt 2 25
1995? 24 January 1995 Billy Bragg Amongst The British - BBC R4 Pt 3 25
1996 03 November 1996 Punk Fiction 5
1996 06 October 1996 Andy Kershaw Show (Live, Interviews & Fave Tracks) 60
1996 13 December 1996 Bristol Anson Rooms 2xC60
1996 14 October 1996 Stockholm Gino 120
1996 17 August 1996 Bills Top 10 Songs 10
1996 18 October 1996 Shepton Mallet Amulet Theatre 90
1996 20 August 1996 Mark Radcliffe Session 30
1996 20 August 1996 R1 The Net Interview 10?
1996 26 September 1996 KSCA Radio, Los Angeles acoustic Performance & Int 25
1996 Smash Or Trash On The Evening Session 10
1997 06 January 1997 John Peel Show Interview 10
1997 12 January 1997 Billy Bragg Show (As DJ Covering For Kershaw) 120
1997 18 April 1997 Plymouth University 105
1997 19 January 1997 Billy Bragg Show (As DJ Covering For Kershaw) 120
1997 29 April 1997 Cardiff University 90
Bob Hawkes
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:46:23 -0000, "Steve Andrews" <sand...@rarerecs.globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Hello
>
>I've a new subscriber and am newish to the net so please forgive me if this
>turns up posted on a tropical fish site or elsewhere it shouldn't be.
>
Welcome.
<snip>
>I'm particularly looking for pre 1984 gigs and anything from election night
>last year onwards. Has anyone ever seen a tape of the Roundhouse gig from
>September 1996 listed? I went but didn't bother taping it foolishly thinking
>that Camden would be awash with
illegal
> tapes by the following weekend.
(from which the artist gets no income)
>I'd also
>love a decent tape of last years May Day bash as my walkman was playing up
>and the tape is un-listenable.
>
<snip long list>
I presume you have already bought (at full price) all Bily Braggs official recordings.
This raises the whole question of illegal taping of artists. At our festival recording is not
permitted - even for private use. Anyone caught recording with the intention of selling/swopping
copies would find themselves banned from all future events. Artists make their living from selling
CDs and tapes and rely on good quality recordings to establish and maintain their reputation. Poor
quality bootlegs do nothing to help promote the music or the artist. Many artists need the income
from CD and tape sales in order to make a living. Their "fans" have a duty to support the artist by
buying the recordings they has worked hard to make.
Bob Hawkes
Saffron Walden Folk Festival: 23rd-25th October 1998
Details at http://ds.dial.pipex.com/hawksmoor/swff.htm
Dom Cronin
Steve Andrews <sand...@rarerecs.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<6aksor$5rp$1...@heliodor.xara.net>...
Dear rarerecs,
With a list that long you obviously don't need to get hold of any more
stolen music in order to have something to listen to. Why don't you send
Billy Bragg, say a fiver for each of them, just to show goodwill. I'm sure
if he doesn't want the money, he can think of a good cause to give it to.
Dom
Bill Hewitt (cst)
# I presume you have already bought (at full price) all Bily Braggs official recordings.
# This raises the whole question of illegal taping of artists. At our festival recording is not
# permitted - even for private use. Anyone caught recording with the
# intention of selling/swopping
I think we know what BB's feelings about bootlegging (live recording
anyway) the cassette version of one of his first two lps (the orange
one with milkman of human kindness etc on it I forget the title) came
with side 2 blank and a message along the lines of "confuse the enemy
- bootleg the bragg" (what is the symbol for this is probably a
misquote?)
While I'm on the subject, what is the legal difference that allows
artists to provide "off the sounddesk" facilities for private live
recordings in the states, but not in the UK ?
Maybe the way forward is for bands to provide more "official bootlegs"
Surely the technology is cheap enough now. It does seem to be
happening a bit (richard thompson, billy bragg, oysterband and bert
jansch all have good examples available), but I would like to see more
of these around. There are times that, nice as that band version on
the lp is, you would really like the solo acoustic version, or a
re-arrangement of a song/tune or whatever. In most cases, the only way
to do this is to get the "illegal" version.
I don't support taping of concerts/cds as a way of not buying the
official output, and do buy official bootlegs where they are
available, but,............
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hewitt || Computing Support Team
Centre for Cognitive Science || EMAIL : Bill....@ed.ac.uk
J Peekstok
In article <EnHqo...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, bi...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk wrote:
>Maybe the way forward is for bands to provide more "official bootlegs"
You are just talking about live albums. There is no such thing as an official
bootleg.
>Surely the technology is cheap enough now. It does seem to be
>happening a bit (richard thompson, billy bragg, oysterband and bert
>jansch all have good examples available), but I would like to see more
>of these around.
There are lots of non-technology reasons to not do a live album. One of them is
that some musicians just don't want to. You'll have to learn to live with it.
No one has any sort of right to the results of anyone else's creative
endeavors.
>There are times that, nice as that band version on
>the lp is, you would really like the solo acoustic version, or a
>re-arrangement of a song/tune or whatever. In most cases, the only way
>to do this is to get the "illegal" version.
>I don't support taping of concerts/cds as a way of not buying the
>official output, and do buy official bootlegs where they are
>available, but,............
One of the big problems with bootlegs, for me, is that all decisions about
content, quality, packaging, song selection, arrangement, and distribution are
taken out of the musician's hands. I think the only people who should be making
these decisions are the musicians or their appointed representatives.
And certainly all income is taken. I don't care if that is money they would
never have seen anyway -- I think that people should get paid for their work.
How would you like it if your boss took work of yours and left your name on it
-- but changed it in ways that were not acceptable to you, sold it your
professional community in ways you found ethically challenged, made a good
profit from it, and never paid you for it? Would you keep going to work there?
I have also heard people say "I don't sell bootlegs, I only trade, so it's OK."
Getting a trade is getting paid -- they are getting something of value and the
musicians are getting nothing.
Support folk music by sopporting folk musicians! Pay for what you get!
John Peekstok
Anahata
"Bill Hewitt (cst)" <bi...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> writes
>While I'm on the subject, what is the legal difference that allows
>artists to provide "off the sounddesk" facilities for private live
>recordings in the states, but not in the UK ?
>
artist agrees to such an arrangement it's OK.
Anahata
ana...@freereed.demon.co.uk + http://www.freereed.demon.co.uk/
ana...@locust.co.uk email to mobile phone 8 line messages max
0171 638 5577 (W) 0171 229 6076 (H) 0976 263827 (mobile)
Jeff
J Peekstok <jpee...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980128121...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
<snip>
>
> One of the big problems with bootlegs, for me, is that all decisions
about
> content, quality, packaging, song selection, arrangement, and
distribution are
> taken out of the musician's hands. I think the only people who should be
making
> these decisions are the musicians or their appointed representatives.
>
Unfortunately some of the "the musicians or their appointed
representatives" don't have a clue what a good part of their audience wants
to listen to or else they would not trash their music by adding noise that
has nothing to do with the artist but is just some producers idea of what
will get the music into the mainstream and generate sales so instead of
buying the artists work you end up being only able to buy the work after it
is defaced by the producer.
J Peekstok
>J Peekstok <jpee...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19980128121...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>>
>> One of the big problems with bootlegs, for me, is that all decisions
>>about content, quality, packaging, song selection, arrangement, and
>>distribution are taken out of the musician's hands. I think the only
>>people who should be making these decisions are the musicians or
>>their appointed representatives.
In article <01bd2c40$e25cbee0$1772...@drjibe.netwiz.net>, "Jeff" wrote:
>Unfortunately some of the "the musicians or their appointed
>representatives" don't have a clue what a good part of their audience
>wants to listen to or else they would not trash their music by adding
>noise that has nothing to do with the artist but is just some producers
>idea of what will get the music into the mainstream and generate
>sales so instead of buying the artists work you end up being only
>able to buy the work after it is defaced by the producer.
Are you saying that you should be able to just take something, even if it is
not legally available to you? A new Mercedes Benz is not legally available to
me . . .
And I am pretty sick of hearing people whine about "producers" ruining
the music. There is no producer who isn't working with the permission of
the musician. If the musician disagrees with the decisions being made,
she has no one to blame but herself. I think there are musicians who
sign contracts hoping to make it big, without stopping to think about
the fact that he is handing over control over his music. Being an
"unsigned" musician has a lot of advantages.
If you want a live album so badly, write a letter to the musician
asking her to do one. Get all your friends to write letters to him.
Start an internet campaign to talk that evil record company into
giving you what you want.
Talk to the musician to see if she will give you permission to tape her
live. You'll probably have to convince him that you are not going to sell
or trade the tape, so be an obviously honest person. If she says "no",
live with it.
Become a concert producer and hire the musicians of your dreams to come
to town and play for you. Tape the shows for your "archives". Tell the
musicians you are doing this before you hire them so they can turn down
the gigs if they want.
In any event, if you ever sell or trade a live concert tape without
the musician's permission, you are outside of the law and of ethical
behavior.
John Peekstok
Jeff
>
>
>
> >J Peekstok <jpee...@aol.com> wrote in article
> ><19980128121...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >>
> >> One of the big problems with bootlegs, for me, is that all decisions
> >>about content, quality, packaging, song selection, arrangement, and
> >>distribution are taken out of the musician's hands. I think the only
> >>people who should be making these decisions are the musicians or
> >>their appointed representatives.
>
> In article <01bd2c40$e25cbee0$1772...@drjibe.netwiz.net>, "Jeff" wrote:
>
> >Unfortunately some of the "the musicians or their appointed
> >representatives" don't have a clue what a good part of their audience
> >wants to listen to or else they would not trash their music by adding
> >noise that has nothing to do with the artist but is just some producers
> >idea of what will get the music into the mainstream and generate
> >sales so instead of buying the artists work you end up being only
> >able to buy the work after it is defaced by the producer.
>
> Are you saying that you should be able to just take something, even if it
is
> not legally available to you? A new Mercedes Benz is not legally
available to
> me . . .
Yes. If the record companies pay politicians to pass a law telling me I
cannot breath because the air belongs to the record companies, I will still
try to breath. If the artist chooses not to market his work someone else
will. There is no escaping this. It is difficult to suppress hunger.
>
> And I am pretty sick of hearing people whine about "producers" ruining
> the music. There is no producer who isn't working with the permission of
> the musician. If the musician disagrees with the decisions being made,
> she has no one to blame but herself. I think there are musicians who
> sign contracts hoping to make it big, without stopping to think about
> the fact that he is handing over control over his music. Being an
> "unsigned" musician has a lot of advantages.
Many artists have no say over final production because of the contracts
they mistakenly signed. Some are dead. Did you ever listen to Hank Williams
with Strings or Buddy Holly's Greatest Hits and compare them to the
originals. Townes Van Zandt's upcoming box set is reported also to be in
the hands of a producer adding background vocals against his heirs desires.
I don't know how it will turn out but I know I'd like to hear the original
recording the way the artist performed it.
>
> If you want a live album so badly, write a letter to the musician
> asking her to do one. Get all your friends to write letters to him.
> Start an internet campaign to talk that evil record company into
> giving you what you want.
>
Record companies feel it is the record companies best interest to limit
selection.
> Talk to the musician to see if she will give you permission to tape her
> live. You'll probably have to convince him that you are not going to sell
> or trade the tape, so be an obviously honest person. If she says "no",
> live with it.
>
Why. If I tell you not to post on this subject you will stop. Right?
> Become a concert producer and hire the musicians of your dreams to come
> to town and play for you. Tape the shows for your "archives". Tell the
> musicians you are doing this before you hire them so they can turn down
> the gigs if they want.
>
>
> In any event, if you ever sell or trade a live concert tape without
> the musician's permission, you are outside of the law and of ethical
> behavior.
>
Yes, it is outside the laws the record companies paid the politicians to
write. However, politicians and record companies rarely have anything in
common with ethical behavior.
Andrew Larcombe
Bob Hawkes wrote in message <34ce3f4b...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>This raises the whole question of illegal taping of artists. At our
festival recording is >not
>permitted - even for private use. Anyone caught recording with the
intention of >selling/swopping
>copies would find themselves banned from all future events. Artists make
their living >from selling
>CDs and tapes and rely on good quality recordings to establish and maintain
their >reputation
The following was written by Steve Knightly & Phil Beer (Show of Hands) in
their spring 97 newsletter:
"By the way, 'Home taping kills music' we are told. Well, we have lost count
of the number of people who have bought our CDs because a friend made them
an 'illegal' tape copy! Feel free - it doesn't kill music, it spreads it."
I'm also sure that (amongst others) Billy Bragg & Fairport Convention have
stated that they do not mind people 'bootlegging' their concerts.
With this in mind, what would be your approach to someone who was taping one
of the aforemention artists at one of your festivals?
/-\ndrew
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Steph
Steve Andrews wrote:
> Anyway altough i'm new to this technology I'm not so new to collecting Billy
> Bragg tapes. A list of my tapes is below.
>
<snip>
Well, with all this debate raging, I just figured I'd pass along the $.02 of
the artist in question. This was posted to the Billy Bragg mailing list last
year when we were having a similar debate. (As an aside, I am not the Steph
mentioned in his post and it was an audio tape of Harborlights, not a video.)
|
|
V
Return-Path: owner-bi...@fish.com
X-Sender: ext...@sdps.demon.co.uk (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:56:40 +0000
To: billy...@fish.com
From: cath <cath@>
Subject: message from Billy re compilation CD
Sender: owner-bi...@fish.com
errors-to: error-...@fish.com
Hello everyone
Billy has asked me to post up this message on his thoughts about the
compilation CD. I hope to hear everyone's replies so that we can form a
general consensus and pass it on to Bill.
Cath
message from Billy follows:
Uncle Bill here. I have read with interest your recent deliberations on
the notion of compiling a CD of rare BB tracks. I thought it might help if
I explained the situation regarding the current status of what I think
constitutes a bootleg.
Steph's video of the Harbour Lights show from Boston is a good example of
the kind of fan initiated non official release that I have always
supported. It is a live performance which means that it is both a document
of an event and more importantly not 'owned' by a record company and
furthermore, it is distributed free.
Problems arise when you wish to copy recordings that have been officially
released by the record company. The fact is that for the duration of their
deal, they own the copyright of that particular performance. To duplicate
those cuts would be an infringement of that copyright. I have to obtain
their permission to give tracks to compilation albums etc. They could
legally refuse me. That is their argument against your compilation CD.
My argument against it is that you are distributing songs written by other
songwriters that I have recorded. I feel it is incumbent upon me to ensure
that they receive some sort of royalty payments for their work. For
instance, Pete Lawler author of 'Ship in my Harbour' from the live Phoenix
CD gets his cut directly from source. Even if you were not charging any
money for the Cd, it would still amount to a grey area regarding their
publishing companies who would doubtless want to have a word with us all -
me included.
The idea of an official rarities CD is one that we have considered before -
the rumours that abounded after 'Don't Try This At Home' were not
unfounded. The driving force behind the choice of material has always been
the fact that most of my singles were not released outside of the UK and
that they should be made available domestically (this incidentally explains
why 'Bloke on Bloke' appeared so soon after its parent singles - apologies
to those of you in the UK who felt as if you were expected to shell out
again for stuff that you had already bought. We are currently negotiating
release for BoB in Australia and North America).
As we are again considering an official rarities CD release, possibly prior
to the Woody Guthrie project, can I ask for suggestions for tracks that
might be included? The parameters should be that the songs must be written
or co-written by BB and recorded in the studio. Other rarities can wait
their turn. As I said, we did consider this idea a few years ago and
perhaps it might help kick things off if I reveal to you the track listing
that we came up with then:
MUST I PAINT YOU A PICTURE -extended 7.08 minute version , b side of 'New Spell'
DAYS LIKE THESE - UK single version
BREAD AND CIRCUSES - with Natalie Merchant, b side of Neighbourhood'
WISHING THE DAYS AWAY - b side of 'Great Leap Forwards'
IT SAYS HERE - solo version from the 'Between The Wars' EP
BAD PENNY - b side of 'Sexuality'
ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN - Red Stars UK single version SULK - b side of
'Accident Waiting To Happen'
PARTY OF GOD - with Natalie Merchant, b side of 10,000 Maniacs 'Trouble
Me' single.
SCHOLARSHIP IS THE ENEMY OF ROMANCE - From the 'Days Like These' EP
I DON'T NEED THIS PRESSURE RON - From The 'Days Like These' EP
ONTARIO, QUEBEC AND ME - b side of 'Neighbourhood' single
WALK AWAY RENEE (VERSION) - b side of 'Levi Stubbs Tears'
SHIRLEY - New version of 'Greetings to the New brunette' recorded with
Johnny Marr during 'Don't Try This At Home' sessions.
That was what we came up with at the time. I am sure you have some other
suggestions for inclusion. Cath here at extra- o will follow the debate
for me or you could post your ideas on the web-site guestbook at
www.billybragg.co.uk. Sorry it is taking so long to update the site but we
are just getting to grips with the notion, both technically and
psychologically.
Hope to see some of you at the Phoenix Festival this weekend. And should
any of you be in the west of England on Saturday 16 August, I am playing at
a benefit for the local homeless teenagers campaign in the town of Bridport
in Dorset at the Football Ground there during the afternoon.
I found the Curry Debate most informative.
All the best
BILLY BRAGG
J Peekstok
In article <01bd2cb2$620d94e0$4a72...@drjibe.netwiz.net>, "Jeff" wrote:
>I wrote:
>>Are you saying that you should be able to just take something, even
>>if it is not legally available to you? A new Mercedes Benz is not
>>legally available to me . . .
"Jeff" wrote:
>Yes. If the record companies pay politicians to pass a law telling me I
>cannot breath because the air belongs to the record companies, I will
>still try to breath. If the artist chooses not to market his work
>someone else will. There is no escaping this. It is difficult to
>suppress hunger.
I hardly know where to start with the logical inconsistencies and downright
selfishness displayed here. Do you really think that you have as much right to
someones else's creative output as you do to not be suffocated? You seem to be
comparing bed sheets to oceans.
If the artist chooses not to market his work, he may have damn good reasons for
it. I have often considered putting out a live album, and have not yet done so
for logistic and financial reasons. If someone else did it first, it would be
less likely that I would. In this case, someone else would profit from my years
of practice, by creativity, and my investment in instruments and eqipment. I
would be denied the sales I should have made. This is a pretty offensive
scenario.
Here is a challenge I have posted every time this discussion has come up, and
no one (oddly enough) has ever taken me up on it:
Tell me where you work and who your boss is. I would like to call your place of
employment and make sure they know that you think it is OK to go to work and
not get paid. If you seriously think musicians should work for free, you should
be willing to do the same thing.
The amazing thing is that you theoretically LIKE the musicians you want to rip
off.
"It is difficult to suppress hunger", indeed. Get a grip, man. Three year old
children have a hard time suppressing their desires. Adults are supposed to be
a bit more in control.
>Many artists have no say over final production because of the contracts
>they mistakenly signed.
Aw, the poor musician signed a contract without showing it to a lawyer first --
or because they wanted to get rich or something -- and then had to live up to
the letter of the contract. Darn. This gives you the right to take whatever you
want?
>Townes Van Zandt's upcoming box set is
>reported also to be in the hands of a producer adding background
>vocals against his heirs desires. I don't know how it will turn out
>but I know I'd like to hear the original recording the way the artist
>performed it.
You can bet the producer isn't doing anything that he wasn't given the right to
do. Townes Van Zandt or his heirs signed over control of his music at some
point and now we all have to live with that fact. I agree that it would be nice
to hear the originals and that the opinions of his heirs should have a lot of
sway with the producer. But you have to keep in mind that the producer is
producing what he thinks will sell. If you think she is wrong, it is up to you
to convince her otherwise. If the record company received thousands of letters
asking for the music in its original format, you would probably get it. Get to
work.
I wrote:
>> If you want a live album so badly, write a letter to the musician
>> asking her to do one. Get all your friends to write letters to him.
>> Start an internet campaign to talk that evil record company into
>> giving you what you want.
"Jeff" wrote:
>Record companies feel it is the record companies best interest to limit
>selection.
Why do you say that? Do you have any basis for this statement? Do you know how
much it costs to put out a CD? Bootlegs are a lot cheaper, because they don't
have to worry about paying the musicians or the songwriters, or paying any
attention to anyone's aesthetic sense of what the packaging should look like.
I wrote:
>> Talk to the musician to see if she will give you permission to tape
>>her live. You'll probably have to convince him that you are not
>>going to sell or trade the tape, so be an obviously honest person.
>>If she says "no", live with it.
"Jeff" wrote:
>Why. If I tell you not to post on this subject you will stop. Right?
You like these little logical non-sequitors, don't you?
I wrote:
>> In any event, if you ever sell or trade a live concert tape without
>> the musician's permission, you are outside of the law and of ethical
>> behavior.
"Jeff" wrote:
>Yes, it is outside the laws the record companies paid the politicians to
>write. However, politicians and record companies rarely have anything in
>common with ethical behavior.
I agree that large corporations and politicians rarely exhibit ethical
behavior. However, I don't think that gives me permission to behave as badly.
And you have to remember that most folk musicians are recorded on very small,
very non-corporate record labels with very little room for loss of income.
John Peekstok
Jeff
> In article <01bd2cb2$620d94e0$4a72...@drjibe.netwiz.net>, "Jeff" wrote:
>
> >I wrote:
>
> >>Are you saying that you should be able to just take something, even
> >>if it is not legally available to you? A new Mercedes Benz is not
> >>legally available to me . . .
>
> "Jeff" wrote:
>
> >Yes. If the record companies pay politicians to pass a law telling me I
> >cannot breath because the air belongs to the record companies, I will
> >still try to breath. If the artist chooses not to market his work
> >someone else will. There is no escaping this. It is difficult to
> >suppress hunger.
>
> I hardly know where to start with the logical inconsistencies and
downright
> selfishness displayed here. Do you really think that you have as much
right to
> someones else's creative output as you do to not be suffocated? You seem
to be
> comparing bed sheets to oceans.
>
Like you did when you compared making a tape copy of an unauthorized
recording to stealing a new Mercedes Benz. My air analogy is a lot closer
than to your Mercedez Benz analogy. When you look at a new Mercedes Benz
you are stealing its image. Your mind has recorded an image of it. You can
describe this image to your friends and make drawings. Was this authorized?
That depends on where you saw it. When you go to a concert and pay to hear
music your mind records an image of it. So can a tape recorder. You can
trade this with your friends. You have not deprived the performer of
anything unless that performer is trying to market that perfomance because
the owner has essentially abandoned that piece of work and is welcome to
reclaim it at any time by marketing it. When you steal a car you have
deprived the owner of something. The tape trader deprives the artist of
nothing as long as he does not substitute listening to these tapes for the
purchase of the artists similar work.
> If the artist chooses not to market his work, he may have damn good
reasons for
> it. I have often considered putting out a live album, and have not yet
done so
> for logistic and financial reasons. If someone else did it first, it
would be
> less likely that I would. In this case, someone else would profit from my
years
> of practice, by creativity, and my investment in instruments and
eqipment. I
> would be denied the sales I should have made. This is a pretty offensive
> scenario.
>
So in the mean time you want to deprive the fans you created when you
pushed your music at them at performances. Ask one of the local tapers in
your area to make a recording of your shows and make a few copies for sale
available at the shows. Not a big financial or logistic hurdle here. Or are
you waiting to have the money to go into the studio for a year with session
musicians so you can release something very different from what you
expressed at your live performances.
> Here is a challenge I have posted every time this discussion has come up,
and
> no one (oddly enough) has ever taken me up on it:
>
> Tell me where you work and who your boss is. I would like to call your
place of
> employment and make sure they know that you think it is OK to go to work
and
> not get paid. If you seriously think musicians should work for free, you
should
> be willing to do the same thing.
>
You are talking to the boss. I work for free all the time. Most
independent's do. Sometimes I get paid. It is called building good will and
helping people. Many musicians also do this starting at the local coffee
house or on the street corner. They eventually build their fan base who
many times in return help to increase their fan base by word of mouth and
continuing sponsorship.
> The amazing thing is that you theoretically LIKE the musicians you want
to rip
> off.
I do not feel I am ripping anyone off. I have purchased all the musicians
comparable recordings that that artist has chosen to market. I have paid
everthing the artist has asked of me and am willing to pay more for more.
When I trade tapes I am doing the artist a favor whether he is able to
comprehend it or not by increasing awareness of the artist allowing that
artist to reach a wider audience manifested in higher performance
attendance and merchendise sales.
> "It is difficult to suppress hunger", indeed. Get a grip, man. Three year
old
> children have a hard time suppressing their desires. Adults are supposed
to be
> a bit more in control.
>
I control it. I do not go through the artists trash. I do not harass or
stalk the artist. I buy the works he artists market and I promote the
artist. Our interests generally overlap in that we both want the artist to
be rewarded.
> >Many artists have no say over final production because of the contracts
> >they mistakenly signed.
>
> Aw, the poor musician signed a contract without showing it to a lawyer
first --
> or because they wanted to get rich or something -- and then had to live
up to
> the letter of the contract. Darn. This gives you the right to take
whatever you
> want?
>
I'm not taking. Just picking up music abandoned by the artist. If the
artist wants to reclaim it by releasing it then one should purchase the
artists version. This does happen.
> >Townes Van Zandt's upcoming box set is
> >reported also to be in the hands of a producer adding background
> >vocals against his heirs desires. I don't know how it will turn out
> >but I know I'd like to hear the original recording the way the artist
> >performed it.
>
>
> You can bet the producer isn't doing anything that he wasn't given the
right to
> do. Townes Van Zandt or his heirs signed over control of his music at
some
> point and now we all have to live with that fact. I agree that it would
be nice
> to hear the originals and that the opinions of his heirs should have a
lot of
> sway with the producer. But you have to keep in mind that the producer is
> producing what he thinks will sell. If you think she is wrong, it is up
to you
> to convince her otherwise. If the record company received thousands of
letters
> asking for the music in its original format, you would probably get it.
Get to
> work.
>
That would be great if there were a system for the fans to vote on what the
record companies released. Do you really believe the record companies would
read and act on this type of mail.
> I wrote:
>
> >> If you want a live album so badly, write a letter to the musician
> >> asking her to do one. Get all your friends to write letters to him.
> >> Start an internet campaign to talk that evil record company into
> >> giving you what you want.
>
> "Jeff" wrote:
>
> >Record companies feel it is the record companies best interest to limit
> >selection.
>
> Why do you say that? Do you have any basis for this statement? Do you
know how
> much it costs to put out a CD? Bootlegs are a lot cheaper, because they
don't
> have to worry about paying the musicians or the songwriters, or paying
any
> attention to anyone's aesthetic sense of what the packaging should look
like.
Bootlegs are alot more expensive generally twice the cost of a commercial
release and people still buy them. Plenty of pricing room available to pay
royalties if they were a authorized release. Lots of artists have problems
getting theie work released through their record companies. They record
albums for release which the record companies reject because they are
looking for something else. They also have shelf space concerns at the
record stores. They don't want to confuse the target audience they have put
the artist in. Again those contracts come in to play. This was common for
Bob Dylan and Neil Young who have missing unreleased albums some of which
are now currently available in bootleg format. Prince recently left his
record company so he could start his own company so he could flood the
market with the offerings rejected by his
old label.
>
> I wrote:
>
> >> Talk to the musician to see if she will give you permission to tape
> >>her live. You'll probably have to convince him that you are not
> >>going to sell or trade the tape, so be an obviously honest person.
> >>If she says "no", live with it.
>
> "Jeff" wrote:
>
> >Why. If I tell you not to post on this subject you will stop. Right?
>
> You like these little logical non-sequitors, don't you?
Very similar. Just because someone says "no" does not mean one lives with
it.
>
> I wrote:
>
> >> In any event, if you ever sell or trade a live concert tape without
> >> the musician's permission, you are outside of the law and of ethical
> >> behavior.
>
> "Jeff" wrote:
>
> >Yes, it is outside the laws the record companies paid the politicians to
> >write. However, politicians and record companies rarely have anything
in
> >common with ethical behavior.
>
> I agree that large corporations and politicians rarely exhibit ethical
> behavior. However, I don't think that gives me permission to behave as
badly.
> And you have to remember that most folk musicians are recorded on very
small,
> very non-corporate record labels with very little room for loss of
income.
Again as long as I do not substitute these tapes for the purchase of music
marketed by the artist there is no loss in income.
Bob Hawkes
Other artists have a contract clause banning recording at their concerts. Jim and Georgina Boyes (No
Master's Voice Co-operative) wrote a paper on this subject for the Association of Festival
Organisers conference a few years back which dealt with the pros and cons of this subject. The
conclusion was to recommend a ban on recording at festivals to protect the income of the smaller
artists. Advice from the Musicians Union also supports this view and points out that the promoter
(me) may be liable if any such recording find their way onto the market in breach of copyright. The
big boys like Fairport are not going to notice a few sales lost through bootlegging, acts like
Coope, Boyes & Simpson (presumably) do. Ultimately it is largely up to the artist. We find it less
confusing to everyone to have one rule for the festival, rather than change the rules for every
concert. Incidently, 47 tape recorders and videos were counted at one concert at Sidmouth '94.
Please note that I only suggested banning people for commercial exploitation of such recordings.
Home taping is a different matter as this is reproducing properly recorded and produced material.
The live mistakes, poor acoustics, etc of a bootleg tape are not passed on. The reduced quality may
well encourage people to buy a CD. The price of the CD can be (and is?) increased to compensate for
a certain amount of copying so no-one looses out. The artist is paid. Not so with selling bootlegs.
Another point raised by the Boyes' paper is videos/photography. We also ban this as we found the
flashing of still cameras, video lights, people moving around to get a good angle to be distracting
to the rest of the audience.
Of course we are continually reviewing our policy....
Steve Andrews
Hello Again
I'm the sad lad who posted up his list of Bragg bootlegs for trade on a few
sites.
As I indicated in my original posting I only bought a modem at Christmas
and this is the reason I haven't responded to the debate (and outrage????)
it caused on some of the newsgroups, particularly the folk ones. I only
realised what the cross next to my message meant about an hour ago.
I did post a reply to Bob from Saffron Walden Festival personally but
didn't realise that anyone else had commented on my message and only Bob
was kind enough to copy it by e-mail personally. I realise that this is the
whole point of news groups but........Oh well...I'm learning.
Betty (John Boocock??) Commented:
"And how anyone could possibly want anything by William Bragg is
beyond my comprehension - I still shudder at the memory of his
meaningless rambling at his concert with Dick Gaughan during last
year's Celtic Connections. The laddie with the pile of bootlegs
should gnaw through the straps and get some fresh air................"
Fair enough comments I suppose. If BB bores you thats fine. My girlfriend
thinks he sounds like the worst Karaoke singer in Essex. I suppose my list
is quite large (I've seen bigger though) and gives the impression that I
just spend my nights endlessly listing to 154 versions of 'The Milkman of
Human Kindness'. I have been collecting since 1984 so its really only about
one tape a month on average. Most of them only get played once in a blue
moon but I try to get new tapes because I enjoy hearing how the songs
develop before and after their official release. I just thought some people
who subscribed to these list might have some interesting stuff for trade.
Dom Cronin suggests:
'With a list that long you obviously don't need to get hold of any more
stolen music in order to have something to listen to. Why don't you send
Billy Bragg, say a fiver for each of them, just to show goodwill. I'm sure
if he doesn't want the money, he can think of a good cause to give it to.'
I'm not sure if in the case of BB the music is in any sense of the word
'stolen'. I have bought all of the UK official releases. He owns the
copyright and licences out the recordings. He has no problem with people
taping his shows and has released several tapes in the past to traders.
He's certainly never asked for any money for them. I once let him have a
copy of a tape a did at Shepton mallet Cheese Pavilion because he said
no-one believed he had played such a venue. If I made a £5 donation
specifically for each tape I owned would this make the recordings any more
legal or illegal? I'll continue to make donations to organisations I wish
to support but not as a result of having too many C90s on my shelf.
Thanks to Steph for posting Billys comments on this issue which I have
already sent to bob personally.
Sorry for rambling. I can't think where I get it from.
I'm off to get some fresh air.
Cheers
Steve Andrews
Chris Beeson
Re: Recording at Festivals.
There have been times when I'd have loved to have taped a
particular performance, not so much to repeat the experience but
to have the chance to learn a song or some guitar work. This
probably applies /more/ to the small venues and lesser-known
acts.
I don't under any circumstances want to deprive musicians of
their income; but I've just got a lousy memory, and not all the
good songs turn up on CDs. What about taping at singarounds, for
example?
Chris Beeson
Ben Kaplan
Steve Andrews <rare...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
To Steve or anyone,
I would certainly be interested in your Billy Bragg boots. I have a very
limited selection of tradable stuff, but we could talk.
Ben Kaplan