Bells of Rhymney author?
Richard L. Hess
Alaric,
The copy that comes to mind from Judy Collins #3 is credited:
Bells of Rhymney, The - 4:04 (Davies-Seeger)
You can find out more about the album/performer at my web site:
htttp://rlhess.home.mindspring.com/music/judy000.htm
Cheers!
Richard
On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:13:03 -0700, Alaric Naiman
<Ala...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Rumor has it that this wonderful song was written by Alex Comfort, but
>none of my songbooks or recordings provides attribution.
>All info appreciated, including any historical or contextual notes.
>Alaric Naiman
EJRen
Idris Davies, the Welsh poet, is the author of the poem Bells of Rhymney.
Pete found the poem, liked it, and set it to music. -- EJR
Douglas A. Roberts
Irwin Silber
Bells of Rhymney: Wordws by Idris Davies, a Welsh coal miner who later
became a school teacher and poet. This poem was reorinted in one of
Dylan Thomas's essays. Music by Pete Seeger. Words asnd Music in
Pete's book, "The Bells of Rhymney" (Pak Publications).
Irwin Silber
Timothy Jaques
I thought it was traditional. The McGarrigles mention it on one of their
songs on their "Matepedia" CD in a context which had confirmed me in this
view.
--
Timothy Jaques
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
"Men's evil manners live in brass: their virtues we write in water."
Alaric Naiman <Ala...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<3423F6...@worldnet.att.net>...
Joseph C Fineman
abby...@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) writes:
>The Digital Tradition set of it is:
>Orange and lemons say the bells of St. Clemons
>I owe you five farthings
>Says the bells of St. Martins
>And when shall I pay you [corrupt?]
When will you pay me?
Say the bells of Old Bailey.
>When I grow rich
>Like a little dog ditch [corrupt?]
Say the bells of Shoreditch.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Don't give me that horse maneuver. The age of cavalry is :||
||: dead. :||
Abby Sale
>Rumor has it that this wonderful song was written by Alex Comfort, but
>none of my songbooks or recordings provides attribution.
>
>All info appreciated, including any historical or contextual notes.
>
Whomever re-rewrote this, it's a very old children's song at heart. I
have a copy I copied from a book of trad English poetry from an English
class I had in 1958. Saw the similarity to "Rhymney" & thought it
interesting. Foolishly didn't keep any attribution.
"Oranges and Lemons"
Gay go up and gay go down
To ring the bells of London town
Bulls eyes and targets
Say the bells of St Marg'ret's
Brickbats and tiles
Say the bells of St Giles'
Orange and lemons
Say the bells of St Clement's
Pancakes and fritters
Say the bells of St Peter's
Two sticks and an apple
Say the bells of Whitechapel
You owe me five farthings
Say the bells of St Martin's
When will you pay me
Say the bells at Old Bailey
Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head
I don't know when Bailey became old, but I gather it's a while back.
The Digital Tradition set of it is:
Orange and lemons say the bells of St. Clemons
I owe you five farthings
Says the bells of St. Martins
And when shall I pay you
When I grow rich
Like a little dog ditch
Here comes a candle
To light you to bed
Here comes a chopper
To chop off your head
Chop chop chop chop
Last man's head
Sung by Dianne Endicott on Jean Ritchie Field Trip England
@kids
see also BELLRHYM
filename[ ORANGLEM
There's also "Bells of Aberdovey" there in Digital Tradition
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abby...@orlinter.com (That's in Orlando)
Eric Berge
In Article<3425e8d7...@snews2.zippo.com>, <abby...@orlinter.com> writes:
> Whomever re-rewrote this, it's a very old children's song at heart. I
> have a copy I copied from a book of trad English poetry from an English
> class I had in 1958. Saw the similarity to "Rhymney" & thought it
> interesting. Foolishly didn't keep any attribution.
> The Digital Tradition set of it is:
>
> Orange and lemons say the bells of St. Clemons
> I owe you five farthings
> Says the bells of St. Martins
> And when shall I pay you
> When I grow rich
> Like a little dog ditch
> Here comes a candle
> To light you to bed
> Here comes a chopper
> To chop off your head
> Chop chop chop chop
> Last man's head
I remember this from my childhood years in England (Oxford, 1966-1970) as a
very common game song; my memories of the actual game are somewhat hazy, but
it involved a line of kids going through an arch made by the outstretched arms
of two children (facing each other and holding hands); as each child went
through the arch, the two forming the arch would bring their arms down
around the head of the victim "chop"; next kid, "chop", and so on, until
"last" "man's" "head". Don't remember what happened to the player selected
at "head".
Eric Berge
(remove "spambegone" for address)
Anthony R Glass
According to my copy of Dylan Thomas' "Quite Early One Morning",
Idris Davies is responsible for the version known to us through
the Byrds (haven't heard Pete Seeger's, but I suppose that's
where the Byrds got it from.
I'm a recent subscriber, so I apologize for any duplication.
Anthony R. Glass
GreeneKing
On the Spinners LP "Around the World & Back Again" it says that Bells of
Rhymney is a poem by Idris Davies set to music by Pete Seeger.
ALSO.... when I was in grade school chorus in about 1968 or so, we sang a
song which was titled "Oranges and Lemons" which went like this: Oranges
and lemons say the bells of St Clemons/ You owe me five farthings say the
bells of St Martins/When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey/When I
grow rich say the bells of Shore Ditch/ When will that be say the bells of
Stepney/ I do not know says the great bell of Bow/Here comes a candle to
light you to bed/ And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
nice song! I don't know how much one has to do with the other-- OR why i
can recall the words after 30 years!
Jon Rouse
Eric Berge wrote:
>
> I remember this from my childhood years in England (Oxford, 1966-1970) as a
> very common game song; my memories of the actual game are somewhat hazy, but
> it involved a line of kids going through an arch made by the outstretched arms
> of two children (facing each other and holding hands); as each child went
> through the arch, the two forming the arch would bring their arms down
> around the head of the victim "chop"; next kid, "chop", and so on, until
> "last" "man's" "head". Don't remember what happened to the player selected
> at "head".
Orange and lemons say the bells of St Clements, (St Clement Dane)
You owe me five farthings say the bells of St Martins, (St Martin in the Fields)
When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey,
When I grow rich, say the bells of Shoreditch,
When will that be, say the bells of Romney,
I do not know says the great bell of Bow,
Here comes a canfle to light you to bed,
And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
The child 'chopped' had to become one of those making the arch.
--
The views expressed are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Please remove the trailing x from the return mail address.
Peter Wilton
>> Orange and lemons say the bells of St. Clemons
Does it really spell it that way? I assume it's "S. Clement's". They're all
London churches, and I assume this one is S. Clement Danes. (Bells of
Rhymney is set in a different place.)
--
Peter Wilton
The Gregorian Association Web Page:
http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk/chant.htm
A.J. Davis
In article <3423F6...@worldnet.att.net>,
Alaric Naiman <Ala...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Rumor has it that this wonderful song was written by Alex
>Comfort, but none of my songbooks or recordings provides
>attribution. All info appreciated, including any historical
>or contextual notes.
>
>Alaric Naiman
others have already given you the correct author (I Davies -
a south Wales school teacher) for the BoRh words
back in 1961 (or 1963 - i can't exactly remember now) P
Seeger played this in a concert in St Pancras town hall. At
the time he introduced it by saying something to the effect
that Davies wrote it '... apparently echoing the old
children's game, " you know the one that goes 'oranges and
lemons'"...' and then played a bit of the Oranges & Lemons
tune.
Echoing is about as far as it goes though since BoRh
catalogues the attitudes to coal mining shown by different
south wales towns (depending a lot on how much they depended
on the industry). Back in the sixties Seeger played it as
an angry song ('... they have FANGS, they have TEETH' !) -
now it would have to be different - there is no
mining industry in south wales any more.
The song does not refer to the sound of the bells themselves
- Cardiff was for a time my home tower and i've rung most of
the places specifically mentioned and the sounds don't match
what the song says.
Andrew Davis
Dr John Barrow
Pete Seeger wrote Bells of Rhymney IIRC
jb
:-)
Eric Berge (edb...@spambegone.ibm.net) wrote:
: In Article<3425e8d7...@snews2.zippo.com>, <abby...@orlinter.com> writes:
: > Whomever re-rewrote this, it's a very old children's song at heart. I
: > have a copy I copied from a book of trad English poetry from an English
: > class I had in 1958. Saw the similarity to "Rhymney" & thought it
: > interesting. Foolishly didn't keep any attribution.
: > The Digital Tradition set of it is:
: >
: > Orange and lemons say the bells of St. Clemons
: > I owe you five farthings
: > Says the bells of St. Martins
: > And when shall I pay you
: > When I grow rich
: > Like a little dog ditch
: > Here comes a candle
: > To light you to bed
: > Here comes a chopper
: > To chop off your head
: > Chop chop chop chop
: > Last man's head
: I remember this from my childhood years in England (Oxford, 1966-1970) as a
: very common game song; my memories of the actual game are somewhat hazy, but
: it involved a line of kids going through an arch made by the outstretched arms
: of two children (facing each other and holding hands); as each child went
: through the arch, the two forming the arch would bring their arms down
: around the head of the victim "chop"; next kid, "chop", and so on, until
: "last" "man's" "head". Don't remember what happened to the player selected
: at "head".
: Eric Berge
: (remove "spambegone" for address)
David Harley
Dr John Barrow (j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Pete Seeger wrote Bells of Rhymney IIRC
: jb
: :-)
Seeger set the poem to music. The words were written by Idriss Davies.
--
David Harley \ | / alt.comp.virus FAQ
D.Ha...@icrf.icnet.uk \ | / & Anti-Virus Web Page
Support & Security Analyst \ | / Folk London On-Line gig-list
Imperial Cancer Research Fund ____\|/____ http://webworlds.co.uk/dharley/
Guy Morgan
In article <3427B5...@postoffice.co.ukx>, Jon Rouse
<rou...@postoffice.co.ukx> writes
>Eric Berge wrote:
>>
>> I remember this from my childhood years in England (Oxford, 1966-1970) as a
>> very common game song; my memories of the actual game are somewhat hazy, but
>> it involved a line of kids going through an arch made by the outstretched arms
>> of two children (facing each other and holding hands); as each child went
>> through the arch, the two forming the arch would bring their arms down
>> around the head of the victim "chop"; next kid, "chop", and so on, until
>> "last" "man's" "head". Don't remember what happened to the player selected
>> at "head".
>
>You owe me five farthings say the bells of St Martins, (St Martin in the Fields)
>When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey,
>When I grow rich, say the bells of Shoreditch,
>When will that be, say the bells of Romney,
>I do not know says the great bell of Bow,
>Here comes a canfle to light you to bed,
>And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
>
>The child 'chopped' had to become one of those making the arch.
I lurk here a fair amount but don't usually post. However the version
of Oranges and Lemons I know is like the above but with Stepney (which
is in London) substituted for Romney (which isn't)
The Bells of Rhymney (in Wales) is a very different song IMHO
Guy
--
Guy Morgan nb Thorn, Stockton GU
Three Men in a Boat is a novel form of overcrowding
Chris Ryall
Jon Rouse <rou...@postoffice.co.ukx> wrote:
>Eric Berge wrote:
>Orange and lemons say the bells of St Clements, (St Clement Dane)
>You owe me five farthings say the bells of St Martins, (St Martin in the Fields)
>When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey,
>When I grow rich, say the bells of Shoreditch,
>When will that be, say the bells of Romney,
>I do not know says the great bell of Bow,
>Here comes a canfle to light you to bed,
>And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
>
>The child 'chopped' had to become one of those making the arch.
--
Chris Ryall, Birkenhead UK (please remove eyes from deiimon to email)
Abby Sale
On Mon, 22 Sep 97 21:48:25 , Eric Berge <edb...@spambegone.ibm.net>
wrote:
>> Here comes a chopper
>> To chop off your head
>> Chop chop chop chop
>> Last man's head
>
>it involved a line of kids going through an arch made by the outstretched arms
>of two children (facing each other and holding hands); as each child went
>through the arch, the two forming the arch would bring their arms down
>around the head of the victim "chop"; next kid, "chop", and so on, until
>"last" "man's" "head". Don't remember what happened to the player selected
>at "head".
AND
On Mon, 22 Sep 97 22:53:41 -500, benjami...@twty.chi.il.us wrote:
>
>_Incompleat Folksinger_, where I found:
>
>"The Author of 'The Bells of Rhymney' was Idris Davies, who died
>while still young, in the nineteen forties. His poem paraphrases
>the Mother Goose rhyme 'Oranges and lemons, say the bells of St.
Which led me to open the very fine _Annotated Mother Goose_ at p253. This
is one of those very good books I keep forgetting to look in. It gives
detailed info on the probable actual referenced churches. (Not all within
London.)
It cites the _Oxford Dict. of Nursery Rhymes_. Of the two children making
the arch, one is an "orange," the other a "lemon." As a child is
"selected" as Eric describes, it is asked if it wants to be an orange or a
lemon. It chooses and lines up behind the appropriate arch-maker. When
all have been chosen, they have thus become two teams which then have a
tug of war.
pdraper
Abby Sale wrote
>
> It cites the _Oxford Dict. of Nursery Rhymes_. Of the two children
making
> the arch, one is an "orange," the other a "lemon." As a child is
> "selected" as Eric describes, it is asked if it wants to be an orange or
a
> lemon. It chooses and lines up behind the appropriate arch-maker. When
> all have been chosen, they have thus become two teams which then have a
> tug of war.
>
Yes, I can remember doing this in the late 50's/early 60's. Coming from
Bethnal Green (within the sound of Bow bells (on a quiet day)) the song
always had great local significance for us.
Timothy Jaques
It's "Clements" as in the church, but why not "St."as in "Saint"? What
does "S" signify?
Samuel?:)
--
Timothy Jaques
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
"Men's evil manners live in brass: their virtues we write in water."
Peter Wilton <pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<JapfXEAN...@beaufort.demon.co.uk>...
Mike Chase
In article <3427B5...@postoffice.co.ukx>, Jon Rouse
<rou...@postoffice.co.ukx> writes
>You owe me five farthings say the bells of St Martins, (St Martin in the Fields)
>When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey,
>When I grow rich, say the bells of Shoreditch,
>When will that be, say the bells of Romney,
>Here comes a canfle to light you to bed,
>And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
>
>The child 'chopped' had to become one of those making the arch.
is based upon the other, Romney being about London churches and Rhymney
being about Welsh churches. A version of The Bells of Rhymney can be
found on the Oysterband album Deserters, in fact I have just had a look
and the writing credits go to Davies and Seeger.
mike.
--
Mike Chase
Jonathan Dembling
John Bennett wrote:
> I assume Guy, you are thinking of the same "Bells of Rhymney" as I am.
> A version of which was released by the Byrds in 1965/66 and was credited
> to Pete Seeger and "I. Davis".
>
> This is all about Wales and includes lines such as "And who killed the
> miner? - say the grim bells of Blaenau" - A rather sad and poignant
> contemporary (now traditional?) song, excellently performed by the Byrds
> IMO - one of my favourites.
The Alarm did a real nice version too.
Jonathan
John Bennett
On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 Guy Morgan <g...@onelight.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3427B5...@postoffice.co.ukx>, Jon Rouse
><rou...@postoffice.co.ukx> writes
>>>
>>> I remember this from my childhood years in England (Oxford, 1966-1970) as a
>>> very common game song; my memories of the actual game are somewhat hazy, but
>arms
>>> of two children (facing each other and holding hands); as each child went
>>> through the arch, the two forming the arch would bring their arms down
>>> around the head of the victim "chop"; next kid, "chop", and so on, until
>>> "last" "man's" "head". Don't remember what happened to the player selected
>>> at "head".
>>
>>You owe me five farthings say the bells of St Martins, (St Martin in the
>Fields)
>>When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey,
>>When I grow rich, say the bells of Shoreditch,
>>When will that be, say the bells of Romney,
>>I do not know says the great bell of Bow,
>>Here comes a canfle to light you to bed,
>>And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
>>
>>The child 'chopped' had to become one of those making the arch.
>
>of Oranges and Lemons I know is like the above but with Stepney (which
>is in London) substituted for Romney (which isn't)
>
>The Bells of Rhymney (in Wales) is a very different song IMHO
I assume Guy, you are thinking of the same "Bells of Rhymney" as I am.
A version of which was released by the Byrds in 1965/66 and was credited
to Pete Seeger and "I. Davis".
This is all about Wales and includes lines such as "And who killed the
miner? - say the grim bells of Blaenau" - A rather sad and poignant
contemporary (now traditional?) song, excellently performed by the Byrds
IMO - one of my favourites.
Cheers John
--
John Bennett
Cheddar **To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive**
Somerset UK (Robert Louis Stevenson)
pdraper
Here in the UK the Roman Catholic church has long used the abbreviation S.,
presumably because it can then stand for San, Santa etc. I've noticed I few
Anglican churches following suit.
Timothy Jaques <tja...@netcom.ca> wrote in article
<01bcc929$3ecd1100$4358b5cf@default>...
Kevin Sheils
If you heard Bow Bells in the 50's/60's it must have been an amazingly
quiet day. IIRC they were damaged in the war and not restored until
relatively recently ;-). Of course I _could_ be wrong.
tony...@ibm.co.uk
albums (Trawler?) and I was lucky enough to see them peform it in
Southampton last week. The last line has been slightly amended to 'Who killed
the miners? Bastards!"
Tony Fry
Peter Wilton
pdraper <pdr...@baig.co.uk> writes
>Here in the UK the Roman Catholic church has long used the abbreviation S.,
>presumably because it can then stand for San, Santa etc. I've noticed I few
>Anglican churches following suit.
...and of course if you want more than one saint, it's e.g. "SS. Philip &
James", by analogy with "p." for "page", "pp." for "pages". I imagine that
the "t" of the abbreviation "St" has always been inessential, and may have
been written superscript, as an afterthought. At least the abbreviation "S"
is very old, and occurs in Wycliffe's bible (1400), according to the
_Oxford English Dictionary_:
1400 Wyclif's Bible IV. 690 *S. Lucie virgyn.
Peter Wilton
Guy Morgan <g...@onelight.demon.co.uk> writes
>I lurk here a fair amount but don't usually post. However the version
>of Oranges and Lemons I know is like the above but with Stepney (which
>is in London) substituted for Romney (which isn't)
Would that be as in Romney Marsh, Essex., rather than Rhymney in
Wales?
Peter Wilton
John Bennett <jo...@johnpb.demon.co.uk> writes
>>The Bells of Rhymney (in Wales) is a very different song IMHO
>
>A version of which was released by the Byrds in 1965/66 and was credited
>to Pete Seeger and "I. Davis".
There is a song of this name on _Deserters_ by the Oyster Band. As it's
the only one I know, I can't say whether it bears any relation to any of
the others under discussion.
pdraper
Kevin Sheils <K.Sh...@btinternet.com> wrote in article
<342A27...@btinternet.com>...
> If you heard Bow Bells in the 50's/60's it must have been an amazingly
> quiet day. IIRC they were damaged in the war and not restored until
> relatively recently ;-). Of course I _could_ be wrong.
>
Yes, you're probably right - I was exaggerating. Certainly we could hear
bells from the City (only 10 minutes walk away). I lived in Columbia Road
and on Sunday afternoons when the market had cleared away it was quieter
than we'd believe possible these days. No traffic (nobody had cars), no
blaring hi-fi's - just us kids swinging on the lamp-posts and flocks of
pigeons picking up the scraps thrown out by the cat lady a few doors up.
People in those days tended to eat a proper Sunday lunch (the pubs closed
at two) and then stay indoors watching the telly or listening to the radio
(The Billy Cotton Band Show, The Navy Lark, The Clitheroe Kid etc.).
Kevin Sheils
pdraper wrote:
> People in those days tended to eat a proper Sunday lunch (the pubs closed
> at two) and then stay indoors watching the telly or listening to the radio
> (The Billy Cotton Band Show, The Navy Lark, The Clitheroe Kid etc.).
Wakey, Wakey! dadadada da da etc
tony...@ibm.co.uk
>Would that be as in Romney Marsh, Essex., rather than Rhymney in
>Wales?
Now I know I haven't been to Romney Marsh for many years, but it was
definitely in Kent when I was last there. Perhaps you're thinking of
Rodney Marsh who used to score goals for Queen's Park Rangers? Or the
other Rodney Marsh who played cricket for the colonies? ;-)
Tony Fry
David Harley
Kevin Sheils (K.Sh...@btinternet.com) wrote:
: pdraper wrote:
: > People in those days tended to eat a proper Sunday lunch (the pubs closed
: > at two) and then stay indoors watching the telly or listening to the radio
: > (The Billy Cotton Band Show, The Navy Lark, The Clitheroe Kid etc.).
: Wakey, Wakey! dadadada da da etc
40 miles we used to walk to Sunday school, barefoot. And you try telling
that to the kids today..... ;-)
Kevin Sheils
tony...@ibm.co.uk wrote:
>
> In <9gqypMAP...@beaufort.demon.co.uk>, Peter Wilton <pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> >Would that be as in Romney Marsh, Essex., rather than Rhymney in
> >Wales?
>
> Now I know I haven't been to Romney Marsh for many years, but it was
> definitely in Kent when I was last there. Perhaps you're thinking of
> Rodney Marsh who used to score goals for Queen's Park Rangers? Or the
> other Rodney Marsh who played cricket for the colonies? ;-)
>
No Rodney Marsh the footballer was only in Essex when QPR played away at
West Ham.
Jeff Dennison
On 25 Sep 1997 09:12:02 GMT, "pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
>. No traffic (nobody had cars), noblaring hi-fi's - just us kids swinging on
>the lamp-posts and flocks of pigeons picking up the scraps thrown out by the cat lady a few doors up.
>People in those days tended to eat a proper Sunday lunch (the pubs closed
>at two) and then stay indoors watching the telly or listening to the radio
>(The Billy Cotton Band Show, The Navy Lark, The Clitheroe Kid etc.).
Ah Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Regards
Jeff
Folkwise - Songs of the Waterways
details at http://www.pipemedia.net/users/jeffd/index.htm
Chris Ryall
David Harley <har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk> wrote:
>40 miles we used to walk to Sunday school, barefoot. And you try telling
>that to the kids today..... ;-)
Just 40! In my day it were 50! (leagues!!)
And over Barnsley moors too. And in't snow
And at 7am on Sunday thy mother would say
'Oy kids! Hop it to sunday school'
David Harley
Chris Ryall (ch...@cavendish.deiimon.co.uk) wrote:
: David Harley <har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk> wrote:
: >40 miles we used to walk to Sunday school, barefoot. And you try telling
: >that to the kids today..... ;-)
: Just 40! In my day it were 50! (leagues!!)
Ah, but in Shropshire, it was all uphill. Both ways. ;-)
Dick Gaughan
In article <970923184...@folkmus.demon.co.uk>, Dr John Barrow
<j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk> shared with us the following wisdom :
>Pete Seeger wrote Bells of Rhymney IIRC
He wrote the tune.
The text is a 1930s poem by Idrys Davies.
--
Dick Gaughan, Dun Eideann (Edinburgh), Alba (Scotland)
website: http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/
All mail to 'spam...@dickalba.demon.co.uk' is auto-deleted. Reply to
'dickg@dickalba.' etc. Help fight email spam at http://www.cauce.org/
Kevin Sheils
Peter Wilton wrote:
>
> tony...@ibm.co.uk writes
> >Now I know I haven't been to Romney Marsh for many years, but it was
> >definitely in Kent when I was last there.
>
> Estuary once, on the Essex side. I can't always remember which side of
> the River the local names were!
The local names are found on both sides of the river ;-)
Tim Shirley
tony...@ibm.co.uk wrote:
> Now I know I haven't been to Romney Marsh for many years, but it was
> definitely in Kent when I was last there. Perhaps you're thinking of
> Rodney Marsh who used to score goals for Queen's Park Rangers? Or the
> other Rodney Marsh who played cricket for the colonies? ;-)
G'Day.
There's only one Rodney Marsh, mate! Stone the crows. He had nothing to
do with soccer, and had no time for queens either, as I recall.
But on the topic: The Bells of Rhymney is a poem written by Welsh poet
Idriess Davies, set to music and first recorded by Pete Seeger. It's
one of the songs that got me interested in folk music as a teenager in
the 60's, and for this reason as well as the message the song contains,
it remains a part of my memory of that time.
Although it used the theme and style of "Oranges and Lemons", the poem
had nothing to do with London, or England (Wales is not part of England,
is it?). It is about Welsh coal-mining, and the effect of that industry
on the people and towns of South Wales.
This has been a very interesting thread. It reawakened a memory for me.
Thank you all.
cheers
tim
Peter Wilton
tony...@ibm.co.uk writes
>Now I know I haven't been to Romney Marsh for many years, but it was
>definitely in Kent when I was last there.
That's the one! I dug up Romans and Saxons in a field on the Thames
MIKE REGENSTREIF
In article <3423F6...@worldnet.att.net>, Alaric Naiman <Ala...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Rumor has it that this wonderful song was written by Alex Comfort, but
>none of my songbooks or recordings provides attribution.
>
>All info appreciated, including any historical or contextual notes.
>
>Alaric Naiman
>
>ala...@worldnet.att.net
Gee, we haven't heard that rumor up in this neck of the woods. "The
Bells of Rhymney" was a poem by Idris Davies that was set to music by Pete
Seeger. According to Pete in THE IMCOMPLEAT FOLKSINGER, Davies died in the
1940s at a young age. The places mentioned in the song are in South Wales.
Mike Regenstreif
"Folk Roots/Folk Branches" on CKUT in Montreal
mre...@vax2.concordia.ca
cbw
I remember this rhyme starting,
Two sticks and an apple say the bells of Whitechapel
and then there was some more bells before you got to St Clement's, but I
can't recall those
In article <Y6ceSiAj...@cavendish.demon.co.uk>, Chris Ryall
<ch...@cavendish.deiimon.co.uk> writes
>Jon Rouse <rou...@postoffice.co.ukx> wrote:
>>Eric Berge wrote:
>>Orange and lemons say the bells of St Clements, (St Clement Dane)
>>You owe me five farthings say the bells of St Martins, (St Martin in the
>Fields)
>>When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey,
>>When I grow rich, say the bells of Shoreditch,
>>When will that be, say the bells of Romney,
> Stepney in my version (Yorks)
>>I do not know says the great bell of Bow,
>>Here comes a canfle to light you to bed,
>>And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
>>
>>The child 'chopped' had to become one of those making the arch.
>
--
Diane
John Bennett
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 Tim Shirley <Tim.S...@aph.gov.au> wrote:
------------snip------------------
>The Bells of Rhymney is a poem written by Welsh poet
>Idriess Davies, set to music and first recorded by Pete Seeger. It's
>one of the songs that got me interested in folk music as a teenager in
>the 60's, and for this reason as well as the message the song contains,
>it remains a part of my memory of that time.
>
>Although it used the theme and style of "Oranges and Lemons", the poem
>had nothing to do with London, or England (Wales is not part of England,
>is it?). It is about Welsh coal-mining, and the effect of that industry
>on the people and towns of South Wales.
You wouldn't happen to have any more information on this would you -
particularly the words to the original poem and when it was written?
I have never been able to completely decipher all the words from the
version by the Byrds (which I still like nevertheless) and I suspect it
is incomplete anyway!
>
>This has been a very interesting thread. It reawakened a memory for me.
>Thank you all.
And me, "ditto":-)
Regards John
George Black
In article <60dfpm$hgi$3...@charlie.lif.icnet.uk>, har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk
>: > People in those days tended to eat a proper Sunday lunch (the pubs closed
>: > at two) and then stay indoors watching the telly or listening to the radio
>: > (The Billy Cotton Band Show, The Navy Lark, The Clitheroe Kid etc.).
>
>
>that to the kids today..... ;-)
True. We used to get up two hours before we went to bed and lived in a paper
bag in a puddle in the middle of the M1 ;-))
And kids today have it easy, you try to tell them :-))))
This sig is a sine of the thymes
Chris Ryall
David Harley <har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk> wrote:
>We used to -dream- of living in a paper bag.....
Lucky you, never got that much sleep. Mum used to put a used
postage stamp on our heads and tell us that'd keep't rain out.
David Harley
George Black (gbl...@midland.co.nz) wrote:
: >
: >40 miles we used to walk to Sunday school, barefoot. And you try telling
: >that to the kids today..... ;-)
: True. We used to get up two hours before we went to bed and lived in a paper
: bag in a puddle in the middle of the M1 ;-))
: And kids today have it easy, you try to tell them :-))))
We used to -dream- of living in a paper bag.....
--
Jeff
Does anybody have a dub of "Shades Of SpeierCock"?
Alan Roberts
David Harley (har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk) wrote:
: George Black (gbl...@midland.co.nz) wrote:
: : True. We used to get up two hours before we went to bed and lived in a paper
: : bag in a puddle in the middle of the M1 ;-))
: : And kids today have it easy, you try to tell them :-))))
:
: We used to -dream- of living in a paper bag.....
What's a paper bag? ...... <I suggest we give up here>
--
******* Alan Roberts ******* BBC Research & Development Department *******
* My views, not necessarily Auntie's, but they might be, you never know. *
**************************************************************************
Pamela Beasley
Jonathan Dembling wrote:
>
> John Bennett wrote:
>
> > I assume Guy, you are thinking of the same "Bells of Rhymney" as I am.
> > A version of which was released by the Byrds in 1965/66 and was credited
> > to Pete Seeger and "I. Davis".
> >
> > miner? - say the grim bells of Blaenau" - A rather sad and poignant
> > contemporary (now traditional?) song, excellently performed by the Byrds
> > IMO - one of my favourites.
>
>
> Jonathan
The best version of this great song I have had the pleasure to hear is
by John Denver. I used to do it in concert all the time. He can make
that 12-string guitar chime.
Timothy Jaques
The lyrics are in the digital tradition database, I have discovered.
--
Timothy Jaques tja...@netcom.ca
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
"Common sense is that set of prejudices we attain by the age of eighteen."
Pamela Beasley <pamela....@airmail.net> wrote in article
<F6D47A693DA034B0.87687D64...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
John Bennett
On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 Timothy Jaques <tja...@netcom.ca> wrote:
>The lyrics are in the digital tradition database, I have discovered.
Indeed they are, thanks. I hadn't visited the digital tradition before
and I'm very impressed!
As I suspected, the Byrds version is not complete nor accurate,
according to the "tradition" which says it was sung by the Ian Campbell
folk group as well.
>> > John Bennett wrote:
>> >
>> > > I assume Guy, you are thinking of the same "Bells of Rhymney" as I
>am.
>> > > A version of which was released by the Byrds in 1965/66 and was
>credited
>> > > to Pete Seeger and "I. Davis".
Cheers John
A.J. Davis
In article <342f8f69...@snews2.zippo.com>,
abby...@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) wrote:
>Which led me to open the very fine _Annotated Mother Goose_
>at p253. This is one of those very good books I keep
>forgetting to look in. It gives detailed info on the
>probable actual referenced churches. (Not all within
>London.)
Like most 'folk' material the 'Oranges & Lemons' rhyme has
many local variants (my home county of Derbyshire had '...
With pancakes and fritters said the bells of St Peters...').
That one particular version "Oranges & Lemons" has,
however, become *the* standard version through publication
in nursery rhyme books (rather as the 'Atishoo Atishoo'
version of Ring a ring of Roses has too). All the churches
in this standard version are most certainly in London,
though they're not all in that curious entity, the *City of
London* (but then neither is Buckingham Palace or Trafalgar
Square).
Andrew Davis
Jack Cullen
Forgive the length, but ....
According to the songbook I have in front of me right now titled "The
Bells of Rhymney and other songs and stories from the singing of Pete
Seeger" published in 1964 by Oak Publications, New York, Lib. of
Congress #64-8787, page 116;
"Idris Davies, a coal miner in South Wales, was a friend of Dylan
Thomas'. I came across this poem reprinted in one of Thomas's essays.
After the failure of the general strike of 1926, Idris Davies determined
to leave coal mining. He studied nights for four years, and finally
passed his examination to Nottingham University. After graduation, he
became a school teacher in London, and published three slim volumes of
poetry.
Rhymney is a typical mining town: one hundred yards wide and two miles
long. Caerphilly is nearby, famous for a type of cheese. Cardiff and
Newport are on the sea. Wye is a lovely and far more prosperous valley
fifty miles east.
[ ...here folow notes on pronounciations, performance techniques and
guitar tabs]"
the attribution is as follows: Words by Idris Davies. Music by Pete
Seeger. (c) 1959 by Ludlow Music, Inc.
I am not silly enough to think that this will be a "definitive
resolution" of the original question -- one of the wonderous things
about traditional folk music is that it provides no definitive answers,
it only opens more questions and possibilities -- but, it is a place to
start from and it taught me how to sing and play this song and convinced
me, as well, that I must have a 12-string guitar.
I, to, have found this to be an interesting and enlightening thread
regarding one of my favorite songs.
--
Jack Cullen
West Chatham, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
Please reply to: DougDriver "at" aol "dot" com
Roger McGuinn
John Bennett wrote:
> As I suspected, the Byrds version is not complete nor accurate,
> according to the "tradition" which says it was sung by the Ian Campbell
> folk group as well.
>
We did it pretty much the way I learned it from Pete Seeger,
but we left out a verse.
Pete told me he liked our interpretation.
All the best ..... Roger
JesiAna
I remember reading somewhere (possibly in some of Pete Seeger's writings) that
the bells in this song are mostly metaphorical.
Jesiana
Jack Cullen
Steve Comeau
Roger McGuinn <mcg...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Just a little bit of trivia related to the "Bells of Rhymney":
Guitarist Jorma Kaukonen (Jefferson Airplane/Starship, Hot Tuna) said
that he based his first song "Embryonic Journey" on Pete Seeger's
12-string "outro" to "Bells of Rhymney." I learned this while
watching Jorma's instructional video from Homespun Tapes (number 1 of
3) last night.
---
*"Nothin' to tell now. Steve Comeau *
* Let the words be yours, sco...@cnct.com *
* I'm done with mine." - Barlow Tel. 201-348-7778 *