Child Ballads
B.P. Taylor
Can someone tell me what a Child Ballad is? Who individually numbers them
and how many are there?
Thanks.
Ben Taylor
(b.p.t...@ncl.ac.uk)
IAZ...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
B.P.T...@newcastle.ac.uk (B.P. Taylor) writes:
>
>Can someone tell me what a Child Ballad is? Who individually numbers them
>and how many are there?
>
Francis James Child, an early folklorist, collected many ballads
in English and Scottish traditions (mostly from printed sourced).
He published his collection and, as with the Grimm brothers and
Marchen, his numbers have been used since to indicate which ballad
is being talked about. I don't have the five volume set here, but
there are a couple (several?) hundred ballads in his collection,
which is called _Enlgish and Scottish (Popular?) Ballads_. Subsequent
scholars like Bertrand Bronson have rectified some of the ommissions
in Child's collection (such as examples of tunes). Child's collection
dates from a time when folklorists were concerned with tracing items
of folklore back to a geographic and historical origin. Thus, the
aim was often to collect as many examples as possible of a ballad.
The numbers then, represent not one single collected instance, but
a type. Thus "Little Musgrave and Lady Bernard" (Child 81) becomes
among other things "Little Matthey Groves." Probably more than you
wanted to know, but hey. Most libraries will have a copy of Child,
and its worth browsing through.
Elizabeth Adams
iaz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
Dan Schatz
<IAZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> wrote:
>In article <CpuH8...@newcastle.ac.uk>,
>B.P.T...@newcastle.ac.uk (B.P. Taylor) writes:
>
>>
>>Can someone tell me what a Child Ballad is? Who individually numbers them
>>and how many are there?
>>
>Francis James Child, an early folklorist, collected many ballads
Only medieval ballads. He didn't deal at all with broadside ballads.
>in English and Scottish traditions (mostly from printed sourced).
Entirely from printed source. He had no idea they were still in circulation.
>He published his collection and, as with the Grimm brothers and
>Marchen, his numbers have been used since to indicate which ballad
>is being talked about. I don't have the five volume set here, but
>there are a couple (several?) hundred ballads in his collection,
305, to be exact.
>which is called _Enlgish and Scottish (Popular?) Ballads_. Subsequent
>scholars like Bertrand Bronson have rectified some of the ommissions
>in Child's collection (such as examples of tunes).
He probably didn't include tunes because they weren't available. Working
as he did from manuscrpripts, he had no way of knowing tunes.
>Child's collection
>dates from a time when folklorists were concerned with tracing items
>of folklore back to a geographic and historical origin. Thus, the
>aim was often to collect as many examples as possible of a ballad.
>The numbers then, represent not one single collected instance, but
>a type.
Yes, although using the word "type" confuses the issue a bit, since
"type" usually refers to a "story type" -- a general plot line adhered to
by several distinct ballads. He collected as many versions of each ballad
that he could, from as many places in the world as he could. So there are,
for example, over 1000 versions of Child #4, "Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight."
>Thus "Little Musgrave and Lady Bernard" (Child 81) becomes
>among other things "Little Matthey Groves." Probably more than you
>wanted to know, but hey. Most libraries will have a copy of Child,
>and its worth browsing through.
>Elizabeth Adams
>iaz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
Have you studied folklore?
As it happens, this is one of those rare times when I can study and
procrastinate at the same time. I have an exam tomorrow in Anglo-American
Folksong.
A ballad, in terms of the study of folklore, is generally defined as a song
that tells a story. They tend to be chronological, focus on leading
characters, have two to a scene in the narrative, and are almost always sung
solo in tradition, although there may be a chorus.
As I mentioned above, Child was only concerned with a particular category of
ballad -- the medieval ballad. The medieval ballad -- called so because it
seems to date from the late medieval period, appears to be connected to the
rise of Mercantilism. The earliest example is from the 13th century, and
it was relatively established by 1450. It remained popular until about 1600,
and after that no new medieval ballads were written, although old ones
continued to be sung.
Child didn't live to write the introduction to his collection, but the ballads
do have clear distinguishing characteristics. They tend to be impersonal,
with narration in the third person, and no clear judgemental moral. They
generally focus on a single central episode. They tell the story in a dramatic
way, almost theatrically -- dialogue is usually unascribed, and statements are
exagerated (hands are always "lilly white," everyone is fabulously wealthy).
They are relatively formulaic, meaning certain phrases are in several distinct
songs. A gruesome example would be, "between the long ribs and the short, he
pierced his own wife's heart." There is a high degree of internal repetition,
often in twos and threes. So you might have a verse that goes:
"And it's when you here me give a loud cry
With your bow shoot an arrow and there let me lie."
followed by one that goes:
And it's when he heard her give a loud cry
With his bow he shot an arrow and there he let her lie.
The form of the stanzas tends to be either 4/3/4/3, as in:
"Go saddle me up the milk-white steed,
The brown one he ain't so speedy;
I've roade all day and I'll ride all night,
Or overtake my lady."
or it might be 4/4, as in the above example of repetition. Finally, the
leading characters tend to be aristocracy or propertied commoners -- rarely
are they normal people.
Child Ballads have diffused all over the world-- about a hundred were current
in Britain in this century, and about a hundred and thirty in America.
That probably really is more than you wanted to know!
---
Dan Schatz
dsc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Appearing Sunday, June 5th, at the Washington Folk Festival, Glen Echo, MD.
e-mail good until May 21. After that write me at:
3312 Glenway Drive
Kensington, Maryland 20895-2213
IAZ...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
dsc...@donald.cc.utexas.edu (Dan Schatz) writes:
>In article <1994051509...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>,
> <IAZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> wrote:
>>In article <CpuH8...@newcastle.ac.uk>,
>>B.P.T...@newcastle.ac.uk (B.P. Taylor) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Can someone tell me what a Child Ballad is? Who individually numbers them
>>>and how many are there?
>>>
>>Francis James Child, an early folklorist, collected many ballads
>
>Only medieval ballads. He didn't deal at all with broadside ballads.
>
:) Quite. I knew that.
>>in English and Scottish traditions (mostly from printed sourced).
>
>Entirely from printed source. He had no idea they were still in circulation.
I have a tendency (in my mind) to conflate Child and his followers
who were very much engaged in the living tradition. You're right
of course.
>
>>which is called _English and Scottish Popular Ballads_. Subsequent
>>scholars like Bertrand Bronson have rectified some of the ommissions
>>in Child's collection (such as examples of tunes).
>
>He probably didn't include tunes because they weren't available. Working
>as he did from manuscrpripts, he had no way of knowing tunes.
>
Good point.
>>Child's collection
>>dates from a time when folklorists were concerned with tracing items
>>of folklore back to a geographic and historical origin. Thus, the
>>aim was often to collect as many examples as possible of a ballad.
>>The numbers then, represent not one single collected instance, but
>>a type.
>
>Yes, although using the word "type" confuses the issue a bit, since
>"type" usually refers to a "story type" -- a general plot line adhered to
>by several distinct ballads. He collected as many versions of each ballad
>that he could, from as many places in the world as he could. So there are,
>for example, over 1000 versions of Child #4, "Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight."
I agree that "type" is usually a reference to a story type, and
more spceifically to an Aarne-Thomspon tale type. It seems to me,
though, whether Child intended it or not, he uses a very similar system
to AT. There have been those that have suggested that Thompson
took his system from Child's. It seems to me, confusing as it may
be, that "type" is what Child was after. And his is the typology
still used, for the most part.
>Have you studied folklore?
Is it that obvious? BTW ballads are not my thing, storytelling
(spoken word, that is) is. Thus my less than perfect knowledge
of Child.
>
>As it happens, this is one of those rare times when I can study and
>procrastinate at the same time. I have an exam tomorrow in Anglo-American
>Folksong.
>
very lucid details of ballad cut for brevity... song
>
I'm interested in modern renditions of ballads. There are plenty still urrent
in oral circulation (and recorded). I wonder how many performers return
to Child (and Bronson, etc.) to find new (old) songs. Hmm...
Anyway, good luck on your test. My comprehensive exams start tomorrow,
but this discussion is pure procrastination :)
Elizabeth Adams
iaz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
Robert Derrick
:<IAZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> wrote:
: >Francis James Child, an early folklorist, collected many ballads
: Only medieval ballads. He didn't deal at all with broadside ballads.
According to A.L.Lloyd in his book "Folk Song in England" [title approx.],
only three of the Child ballads can be reliably dated to prior to
1600. He did not say which three. There is an assumption that many
were in oral circulation though.
rob derrick
Scot Witt
I understand the hard AND softcover editions are out of print....I also
understood Yale University Press was supposed to re-release them last year.
What I'd REALLY like to n\know is how to get an inexpensive copy of either
edition for my library...and my edification....you never know when you're
gonna need an edifice.
8-)
================================================================================
"Radio is Two Fat Guys Dancing" Scot Witt
-Joe Nittler scot...@interaccess.com
================================================================================
Bob Walton
Edited by Francis James Child
originally published 1882 to 1898.
My copy (in 5 volumes) published by Dover Publications, New York.
Regards
Bob Walton
r...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Chuck Boody
scot...@interaccess.com writes:
>What I'd REALLY like to n\know is how to get an inexpensive copy of
either
>edition for my library...and my edification....you never know when
you're
>gonna need an edifice.
I seem to recall that Dover reprints has put one out. You might check...
Dan Schatz
Yes, but the STYLE of song is called "medieval ballad." That many of the songs
were made after medieval times isn't the point-- they are in a medieval style.
This is to distinguish them from broadside ballads, which are more expository,
more personal, more realistic, less formulaic, less internally repetitive, and
generally more modern.
---
Dan Schatz
dsc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
until May 21....
M. Jonas
> >: >Francis James Child, an early folklorist, collected many ballads
> >
> >: Only medieval ballads. He didn't deal at all with broadside ballads.
> >
> >According to A.L.Lloyd in his book "Folk Song in England" [title approx.],
> >only three of the Child ballads can be reliably dated to prior to
> >1600. He did not say which three. There is an assumption that many
> >were in oral circulation though.
>
>Yes, but the STYLE of song is called "medieval ballad." That many of the songs
>were made after medieval times isn't the point-- they are in a medieval style.
>
>This is to distinguish them from broadside ballads, which are more expository,
>more personal, more realistic, less formulaic, less internally repetitive, and
>generally more modern.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are definitely two distinct genres of ballads, but if you label them
"medieval" and "broadside" ballad, you're already taking a prejudiced
approoach. The better (and more common in the literature) labels are
"folk ballads" and "street ballads". Your list of differences in style is
about right, but to say that street ballads are more modern _in_style_ than
folk ballads is probably too rash. There is considerable (if indirect)
evidence that most Child ballads (NB: the ballads themselves, not just the
versions we know now) are no older than 17th or 18th century, i.e. that the
development of the folk ballad is largely parallel in time with the street
ballad. Most folklorists of the 19th century took a romanticising approach
to the oral tradition, which made them _assume_ that more "archaic" form
of the folk ballads (i.e. less like then contemporary poetry) meant that
they were extremely ancient, which is probably not true. Note also that
"street ballad" does not necessarily mean "broadside ballad". Street ballads
originate in versions published on broadsides churned out by some hack, but
a lot of them have been adapted by ballad singers and altered (and mostly
improved) considerably in the process of singing. Many of these folk-processed
versions have then been reprinted many, many times over centuries of
broadsides, usually with the claim to publish "a new ditty" (no copyright
in those days).
The final version is very dissimilar to the often very coarse original
broadside, but still exhibits the style characteristics of the street ballad.
On the other hand, many folk ballads (i.e. Child etc.) have been printed
on broadsides as well, sometimes overworked (and bastardised) and sometimes
not, and also usually with the claim to publish a new song,
so you can't distinguish between the two just on whether they have
appeared on broadsides or not.
Martin
da...@telerama.lm.com
>According to A.L.Lloyd in his book "Folk Song in England" [title approx.],
>only three of the Child ballads can be reliably dated to prior to
>1600. He did not say which three.
This is a pet topic for me. The problem with dating a ballad to before
1600 is to define what you mean. There are *no* Child ballads for which
one can say with certainty "These lyrics were sung to this tune before 1600."
Sometimes one can make a good guess. For instance, Lloyd may have been
referring to the three ballads (John Dory, The Three Ravens, The Baffled
Knight) which appear in Ravenscroft in 1609 and 1611. There are good
reasons to believe the ballads to be older (eg, we have sixteenth-century
references to people singing "John Dory"), but we can't *prove* that
Ravenscroft didn't modify the lyrics or melodies.
There are about a dozen ballads for which we have pre-1600 lyrics from
early manuscripts, but are forced to speculate about what tunes they
were sung to. (We have an early-1500s reference to "The Friar in the
Well", but can we assume that it is sung to the 17th-century tune of
that name?) And there are some *real* borderline cases, such as a
c.1450 song which is recognizably "I gave my love a cherry" -- which
is not a ballad, but whose riddles *appear* in some ballads. And so forth.
Bottom line is that what we think of as ballads were definitely being
sung in the fifteen-hundreds -- but that we can't nail down *exactly*
what was being sung until the sixteen-hundreds.
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com da...@telerama.lm.com
Roses red and violets blew
and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser
Dan Schatz
M. Jonas <mj1...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <2r8rp6$1...@donald.cc.utexas.edu> dsc...@donald.cc.utexas.edu (Dan Schatz) writes:
>
>> >: >Francis James Child, an early folklorist, collected many ballads
>> >
>> >: Only medieval ballads. He didn't deal at all with broadside ballads.
>> >
>> >According to A.L.Lloyd in his book "Folk Song in England" [title approx.],
>> >only three of the Child ballads can be reliably dated to prior to
>> >1600. He did not say which three. There is an assumption that many
>> >were in oral circulation though.
>>
>>Yes, but the STYLE of song is called "medieval ballad." That many of the songs
>>were made after medieval times isn't the point-- they are in a medieval style.
>>
>>This is to distinguish them from broadside ballads, which are more expository,
>>more personal, more realistic, less formulaic, less internally repetitive, and
>>generally more modern.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>There are definitely two distinct genres of ballads, but if you label them
>"medieval" and "broadside" ballad, you're already taking a prejudiced
>approoach.
I merely relate what has been taught to me in academic folklore study.
>The better (and more common in the literature) labels are
>"folk ballads" and "street ballads". Your list of differences in style is
>about right, but to say that street ballads are more modern _in_style_ than
>folk ballads is probably too rash.
What I mean by "more modern" is that the characters are not all nobility or
wealthy and the world view expressed in the songs is more modern.
Perhaps I should clarify that by "style" I mean syntax. Form.
>There is considerable (if indirect)
>evidence that most Child ballads (NB: the ballads themselves, not just the
>versions we know now) are no older than 17th or 18th century, i.e. that the
>development of the folk ballad is largely parallel in time with the street
>ballad.
Clearly, though, the *form* was around as early as 1350. We know this from
historical ballads. Whether most of the songs were made around that time
is not the point; the style was already current. Moreover, it's a pan-
European style.
Most folklorists of the 19th century took a romanticising approach
>to the oral tradition, which made them _assume_ that more "archaic" form
>of the folk ballads (i.e. less like then contemporary poetry) meant that
>they were extremely ancient, which is probably not true.
True, many did. Most of these were not actually folklorists in the modern
sense, but antiquarians. Witness Pursey's RELICS OF ANCIENT ENGLISH POETRY.
Many of these people also heavily edited the ballads they found.
Note also that
>"street ballad" does not necessarily mean "broadside ballad". Street ballads
>originate in versions published on broadsides churned out by some hack, but
>a lot of them have been adapted by ballad singers and altered (and mostly
>improved) considerably in the process of singing. Many of these folk-processed
>versions have then been reprinted many, many times over centuries of
>broadsides, usually with the claim to publish "a new ditty" (no copyright
>in those days).
The broadside ballad style originated with the boradsides sold on streets, but
many passed, as you note, into oral tradition. A certain style gelled for
those songs that did make it into oral tradition, and that style became known
(to folklorists) as the broadside ballad style. Of course, soon people began
to make songs in that style that they never put on broadsides, and these are
also known as "broadside ballads."
>The final version is very dissimilar to the often very coarse original
>broadside, but still exhibits the style characteristics of the street ballad.
>On the other hand, many folk ballads (i.e. Child etc.) have been printed
>on broadsides as well, sometimes overworked (and bastardised) and sometimes
>not, and also usually with the claim to publish a new song,
>so you can't distinguish between the two just on whether they have
>appeared on broadsides or not.
See the above comment. They are not being distinguished by whether or not
they have appeared on broadsides.
I would reccomend looking in the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FOLKLORE, but I happen to
know that the entries on "Medieval ballad" and "broadside ballad" for the new
edition are still being written. (My Anglo-American folksong prof is writing
them.)
---
Dan Schatz
dsc...@ccwf.cc.utexas (for another two or three days)
"Revelation can be more perilous than Revolution." -- Vladimir Nabokov
Abby Sale
>What I'd REALLY like to n\know is how to get an inexpensive copy of
CB> either
>edition for my library...and my edification....you never know when
I have and am very happy with an abbreviated version. It was done by
Prof. Kittredge in 1904 and is very intelligently selected, with at
least 2 & up to 7 or so representative samples of each ballad. It has
all (I think) of Child's notes on each song and a good glossary
(including Scottish stuff.) It's a single volume of 730 thin pages.
It's the second one listed below.
My edition has no printing date but I got it brand new in 1959. I hope
it's still in print.
Please let me know if you find it as I've been recommending this without
really knowing that it's available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AUTHOR: Child, Francis James, 1825-1896, ed.
TITLE: The English and Scottish popular ballads, ed. by Francis James
Child. In five volumes ...
PUB. INFO: Boston, New York, Houghton, Mifflin and Company [c1886-98]
DESCRIPTION: 5 v. front. (port.) 29 cm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AUTHOR: Child, Francis James, 1825-1896, ed.
TITLE: English and Scottish popular ballads, edited from the collection
of Francis James Child by Helen Child Sargent and George Lyman Kittredge
PUB. INFO: Boston and New York, Houghton Mifflin [c1932]
DESCRIPTION: 3 p. 1., [v]-xxxi, 729 p. front. (port.) 22 cm.
SERIES: The Cambridge edition of the poets
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AUTHOR: Child, Francis James, 1825-1896, ed.
TITLE: The English and Scottish popular ballads.
PUB. INFO: New York, Folklore Press, 1956.
DESCRIPTION: 5 v. in 3. port. 26 cm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AUTHOR: Child, Francis James, 1825-1896, ed.
TITLE: The English and Scottish popular ballads.
PUB. INFO: New York, Dover Publications [1965]
DESCRIPTION: 5 v. port. 24 cm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AUTHOR: Bronson, Bertrand Harris, 1902- ed.
TITLE: The traditional tunes of the Child ballads; with their texts,
according to the extant records of Great Britain and America.
PUB. INFO: Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press, 1959-72.
DESCRIPTION: 4 v. music. 29 cm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AUTHOR: Bronson, Bertrand Harris, 1902- ed.
TITLE: The singing tradition of Child's popular ballads / edited by
Bertrand Harris Bronson.
PUB. INFO: Princeton, N.J. : Princeton University Press, 1976.
DESCRIPTION: xlvi, 526 p. : music ; 29 cm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Abby Sale | ...!ucf-cs!alfred!animece!Abby.Sale
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