What's the difference between Folk and Country music
y...@ecl.psu.edu
Hi,
I am just come from China, and like American Folk song and country music
very much. But I always get confused with this two. In my mind the folk
song refered to the song that was sung by the people for many years and
you can't tell who is the composer. But some American told me it is not
true. So what's the difference between them?
By the way,would you introduce some folk song to me?
Thanks
Zhaohui Yang
gordon e. banks
>
>
>Hi,
>
>I am just come from China, and like American Folk song and country music
>very much. But I always get confused with this two. In my mind the folk
>song refered to the song that was sung by the people for many years and
>you can't tell who is the composer. But some American told me it is not
>true. So what's the difference between them?
>
Country music has come to mean a genre of commercial music that has
folk roots (as does all music, I suppose) but has become very stylized.
This has occurred mainly since the 1930s. It is centered in
Nashville, Tennessee. Folk music really does mean
songs sung by the people, and usually it is true that the composer
has been lost. However, some songs that are in a folk style can
be composed and catch on and become sung by "folk singers" and
sort of become "folk songs" that way too. A folk song also usually
comes from some tradition (Celtic, Appalachian, Blues, Gospel, etc.),
or is done in one of the styles of a tradition.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks N3JXP | "When in danger, or in doubt
g...@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | Run in circles, scream and shout" --Heinlein
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Mailman
possibly completely contradictory, opinions as there are people who respond.
Whenever you ask "what is the relationship between this category and another
category?"... Well, here's my two cents.
Literally "folk music" just means "music of the people" meaning music that
arises among, is sung/played by, and preserved by common, everyday people,
as opposed to trained, professional musicians. Until the middle of this
century, one of the distinguishing features of folk music, as opposed to
classical music, is that folk music was preserved primarily in an "oral
tradition" -- that is, passed on by one person hearing it and learning it
directly from another -- as opposed to classical music which was written down.
Because folk music was passed on orally, you will often find folk songs that
exist in many different versions, as different people added their own verses
or changed parts that they didn't like or that they forgot. Sometimes you
will find the same set of words set to different melodies, or the same melody
being used for different words. Changing a song is considered fair game among
many or most "traditional folk" musicians. You can understand, perhaps, why
it is sometimes difficult to identify the person who wrote a song.
The development and popularization of recording technology started to change
things, since instead of learning a song from someone face-to-face you could
buy a record or hear a song on the radio. From my knowledge of the time, I
would say the changes started (in the 30's and 40's? not sure of my time scale)
when Alan Lomax went out with a tape recorder into the rural parts of America
and recorded songs that previously were passed on only orally. Records of
folk music became available.
Moving into the 40's and 50's, musicians such as Woody Guthrie, Huddy Ledbetter
("Leadbelly"), and Pete Seeger (still alive and kicking, bless him!)
popularized traditional folk music even more, and added their own compositions
that were written in the style of folk music. In the US, the 1960's saw an
explosion in the popularity of new or "contemporary folk music" in the
persons of Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Peter Paul & Mary, Gordon Lightfoot, etc.
(too numerous to list). Many of these people started doing traditional folk
music and then wrote more and more original songs. Some (especially today)
learned their music from other contemporary folk musicians and don't really
go back to the older roots.
There a many kinds of folk music, even within the traditional realm. There
are work songs, sea chanties, folk dance tunes, etc.
There are "crossovers" between areas of music where distinctions are not very
clear. ("Folk rock" was a term that was popular in the 60's.) Distinctions
are often a matter of opinion.
In my opinion, "country music" is a kind of crossover, somewhere in between
being a kind of folk music and being something else. Certainly its roots
are in the folk tradition, a mixture of bluegrass (traditional folk music that
arose in the rural Southeastern areas of this country) and Western or (forgive
me if I offend anyone) "cowboy" music arising in the West or the Southwest out
of this country's days of western expansion. But it has certainly grown
away from some of its roots and established itself as a genre of its own.
Me, I don't worry about what "kind" of music it is. The question for me is,
is it _good_ music?
--
///////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\ Paul Mailman ====== Internet: ma...@atex.kodak.com //
// Atex, Inc. (A Kodak Company) ====== Voice: (508) 670-3173 \\
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Toby Koosman
by the venues where it is performed and the kind of image that the artist (or
their agent or recording company) wishes to promote. In the 1970s any band
that played in certain clubs in New York City or London was called "punk rock"
or "new wave" even if it sounded exactly like classic '50s Rock'n'Roll.
What's now called New Acoustic Music was long called jazz for similar reasons.
"Folk music" in common parlance refers to the music favored by a certain
milieu, and can be traditional or ethnic music, classic jazz or rock, blues,
bluegrass, singer/songwriter acts (usually with a less commercial flavor than
Country), topical or protest songs, or a whole grab bag of other styles,
typically presented in a casual, unaffected manner. Many people will no
doubt argue that this is not a proper use of the term "folk music", but that
is the best practical guide to the topic of this discussion group that I can
offer.
Toby Koosman
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>
>I am just come from China, and like American Folk song and country music
>very much. But I always get confused with this two. In my mind the folk
>song refered to the song that was sung by the people for many years and
>you can't tell who is the composer. But some American told me it is not
>true. So what's the difference between them?
I'd suggest that you hide somewhere and watch till the flame war is
over :-)
What you have done is triggered a return of an old debate as to
"What is folk music?". I agree with the working definition which you are
using, but there are others who say something along the lines of "I like
folk music. I like this song. Therefore it must be folk music." Some seem
to feel threatened by the insistance on applying a label which came from the
academic community, as though not being able to call a given song "Folk
Music" means that they have to stop enjoying it. I don't understand this
point of view, and say that whether you can call a given song "Folk Music"
or not should have no bearing on whether or not you like it, or whether or
not you can listen to it or perform it.
The distortion of the meaning of "folk music" started when the
recording companies noticed that there was a growing audience for folk
music, and started calling anyone who used instrumentation similar to that
used in the recordings that sold "folk music" also. Since, it has gotten to
the point where there are those whose thoughts are along the lines "I sing
folk songs. That makes me a folk singer. If I'm a folk singer, than
anything that I sing must be folk music, even if I just wrote it this
evening." Sometimes, the music is described as being akin to folk music. I
would dissagree about much, especially that written for stage performance.
I might more readilly accept something written to fit in comfortably in an
evening of song swaps in a community (such as a gathering from a folk club,
since very few other communitys now share singing in this way other than folk
clubs). Most of what is in the academic collections contain songs which
have survived because they were comfortable (or interesting) to sing in just
such gatherings (then, groups from a given villiage) for generations, and
not because they could be sung from a stage in such a way as to impress
others.
>By the way,would you introduce some folk song to me?
Well, some which fit the definition which you used, and which I use
would be "Tam Lin", "Barbara Allen", "The House Carpenter" or any of the
other songs collected in the works of Francis James Child. There are many
others which did not make it into such collections, for various reasons,
which would qualify as well. Sometimes they were ommited because of the
prejudices of the collector (they were too risque, etc), or sometimes they
just were not found by that collector. For recordings of these songs, I
would recommend perhaps the first two albums on Vanguard by Joan Baez as
being a good voice performing traditional songs as one example. (This was
what started my interest in the very early 1960's, and the records are still
available, and may be available on CD now.) For recordings of *real* folk
singing folk songs, try the large collection of records from the Library of
Congress Archive of Folk Song. These recordings are not as easy listening
as the voice of Joan Baez, but they are examples of how folk songs were
normaly sung. There are other voices to listen to in the easy introduction,
and in the collections of field recordings like those in the Library of
Congress. (There are various organizations in this and other countries
which collect folk songs by field recordings. Cecil Sharp house in England
is an example.) If you discover a strong interest in the music as
represented by the Library of Congress recordings, and have some spare time,
and can come to the Washington D.C. Area, the library can always use
volunteers to help catalog the field recordings and manuscripts. It is a
never-ending task. Various singers of traditional music (not folk musicians
by my definition, they might come to the Library, but they will be recording
the songs they know for the Library.) put in many hours of such volunteer
work, and as a reward, often find songs which have dropped from memory which
are well worth reviving. If you have such an interest, drop me e-mail and
I'll give you a contact point at the library. (I don't think that they're
on the net. It'll be a standard surface mail address, and perhaps a phone
number.)
I'll let others representing the other side of the debate post
their own list of those songs which they consider to be folk music.
I'll now sit back and watch the rest of the debate. (And try to stay
out of it. :-) So far, I haven't received any of the answers to your post at
my site, but I am expecting quite a few.
>Thanks
You're welcome. Good luck with all the replies you're going to
get. There are some thoughtful voices on the other side of the issue.
>Zhaohui Yang
--
Donald Nichols (DoN.) | Voice (Days): (703) 664-1585 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
D&D Data | Email: <dnic...@ceilidh.beartrack.com>
I said it - no one else | <dnic...@ceilidh.aes.com>
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
gordon e. banks
>
>In my opinion, "country music" is a kind of crossover, somewhere in between
>being a kind of folk music and being something else. Certainly its roots
>are in the folk tradition, a mixture of bluegrass (traditional folk music that
>arose in the rural Southeastern areas of this country) and Western or (forgive
>me if I offend anyone) "cowboy" music arising in the West or the Southwest out
>of this country's days of western expansion. But it has certainly grown
>away from some of its roots and established itself as a genre of its own.
>
I thought bluegrass was an invented style rather than a traditional
one. I also thought it didn't go back all that far (didn't Bill
Monroe invent Bluegrass?).
Deborah M Riel
>In article <59...@atexnet.Atex.Kodak.COM> mailm.atex.kodak.com writes:
>I thought bluegrass was an invented style rather than a traditional
>one. I also thought it didn't go back all that far (didn't Bill
>Monroe invent Bluegrass?).
Yes, this is what I've heard at every Peter Rowan show that I've
attended. He used to be with Bill Monroe and does a _lot_ of his music.
He always introduces the Bill Monroe songs with a bit about Bill being
the father of bluegrass music. But, of course, bluegrass has its
obvious traditional roots, too.
Debbie
Fred Bulger
I've always felt that bluegrass was simply country music sung through your
nose - it kind of has the nasal quality, if you know what I mean.
In regards to country and folk music, I love folk music and yet I dislike
almost all country music. So, to me, country music is boring and uninspiring;
whereas folk music is rich and fullfilling. That's how I tell the two apart.
Later...
Fred.
Nur Iskandar Taib
>"What is folk music?". I agree with the working definition which you are
<lots of interesting text removed>
Then you have Garrison Keillor's definition. He had people
send him snippets of songs they had learned as children. This
resulted in some interesting music.
--
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Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NT...@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey H. Shore
>>... But, of course, bluegrass has its obvious traditional roots, too.
>>Debbie
>I've always felt that bluegrass was simply country music sung through your
>nose - it kind of has the nasal quality, if you know what I mean.
Well, all this sounds like a discussion on folk music from a year or so back,
which means it is just about right to do it again! :-) And just to establish
my perspective (but heaven knows not as any authority!!!!), I cut my teeth
on Real Folk Music (tm) at the No Exit coffee house outside Chi; Joe Moore
proprietor, complete with beret, dark glasses (way before John Lennon thought
of 'em) was straight out of Kerrouac's visions; hootenanies every Wednesday
night while dating a Real Folksinger (not tm, but she was cute as hell);
and a huffin'-chuffin' espresso machine. And because I am the proud owner of
Baez' first album, I *know* what Real Folk sounds like .... to me.
[... and in case I catch someone having a hissy sort of day, all of the
above is true, but I take none of that, or the following, very seriously.]
Some notes first, just to establish my own baseline.
One source notes that folk music is "characterzed by a tradition of oral
transmission and usually anonymous authorship". I think this lexigraphic
view is a bit outdated in today's context, but is still valid for what
I call "traditional" or "authentic" folk music. Growing up in the 60s
(I'm not really that old--I was 7 and just very precocious, if anyone buys
that) I first thought the Chad Mitchell Trio, Kingston Trio, Limelighters,
and Joan Baez completely defined the genre. Joan comes the closest,
partially because of her early and extensive use of the Child Ballads.
Bottom line: folk music is what you are socialized to believe it is.
Regarding Country: Again, one source characterizes it as "unsophisticated"
and "rustic". I'd agree, but, again, the non-traditional country music
has moved way beyond that, and it is the "sound" and style that either
turns people on or off these days. It took me more than 15 years beyond
the 2 years I lived in Charleston, S.C. before I would even listen to it.
But based on the first folk music definition, a lot of country had its
start the same way, so .... believe what you prefer.
Regarding Bluegrass, back to the source: This is characterized as being
"a type of FOLK MUSIC [writer's emphasis] characterized by rapid tempos,
jazzlike improvisation, and an emphasis on stringed instruments". The
nasal quality, while giving it a feel or sound we expect, is strictly
a stylistic thing that we often associate with bluegrass. But that
is superficial (to me) and drops out completely during instrumentals.
Tony Trischka's (sp?) banjo does *not* have a nasal quality. :-)
Well, I guess I see it all as: folk music is what you think it is.
End of opinion, and less long-winded than usual I might note! :-)
Jeff
y...@ecl.psu.edu
Hi,
I am just come from China, and like American Folk song and country music
very much. But I always get confused with this two. In my mind the folk
song refered to the song that was sung by the people for many years and
you can't tell who is the composer. But some American told me it is not
true. So what's the difference between them?
By the way,would you introduce some folk song to me?
Thanks
Zhaohui Yang
Leslie Hechtel
Hi! I've been in the US my whole life, and I'm not always sure what the
difference is either!
Country music tends to be more commercial than folk (lots of advertising,
TV shows, whole radio stations devote almost all their air time to it, etc.).
It is also usually fairly 'glitzy'; lots of bright lights, fancy costumes,
elaborate hairdos, and all that.
Folk music tends to be smaller scale; it's less frequently heard in large
concerts (some exceptions, true), it's usually a small portion of what's
heard on a radio station, it's frequently a very 'local' style. It also
tends to be 'plainer'; just folks sitting around playing and singing.
My favorite definition of folk music comes from a band called Schooner
Fare (a schooner is a type of sailing ship)(I think). They consider
folk music to be 'that music that people sing'.
Schooner Fare is a Maine based band which is very good and lots of fun,
and focuses on New England style music, especially nautical themes and
some Irish/Scottish themes (many of the settlers of the northeast coast
came from Ireland and Scotland).
You're sure to get lots of responses from lots of people. Listen to a
little of one type, a little of another, and see what you like. Have
fun!
Leslie
--
Leslie M. Hechtel
Dept. of Meteorology
1225 W. Dayton St.
Madison WI 53706 Internet:hec...@meteor.wisc.edu
Jim Muller
dam that I might as well jump in, grab the bull by the horns of a dilemma,
and face the musical chairs. If I've gotten any of these attributions mixed
up, I apologize. The chain has rather too many links already. I've played
both folk and bluegrass and listened to a fair amount of country too, so I
know a fair amount about them.
From <12...@pitt.UUCP> g...@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks):
>I thought bluegrass was an invented style rather than a traditional one. I
>thought it didn't go back all that far (didn't Bill Monroe invent Bluegrass?).
Yes and no. What might now be called the "classic" bluegrass style was
developed by Monroe out of traditional components. Those components
included blues feeling, folk (primarily Appalachain) melodies, and the
corresponding country-people harmonies. His new contributions were flashy
instrumental virtuosity and a strong driving rhythm. Many of the features
of this "new" style of playing older music were more a product of the
people Monroe choose to hire for his band rather than Monroe telling
his musicians what or how to play. The blues feeling was partly the result
of his singing and partly his fiddlers' playing. The instrumental prowess
came from his own expertise, that of his fiddlers, and from Earl Scruggs
(who joined the Bluegrass Boys because of Lester Flatt's recognition of his
potential rather than Monroe's), and Monroe's insistence on a tight rhythm.
Even Scruggs' new banjo style wasn't unique to him, as others from North
Carolina had been developing it too. Scruggs was just so good at it. One
thing that distinguished this emerging music from other commercial music
of the day was its use of traditional, all-acoustic stringed instruments
with no drums, piano, etc. The electric guitar had been invented by then
and was in use for recording and live performance.
Some might say that bluegrass is sung through the nose, but that isn't
necessarily the case. Monroe had a high voice and he put it to good use,
especially for a plaintive, lonesome sound that reinforced the emotional
impact of his music, but it was not necessarily nasal. Other patriarchal
bluegrass singers didn't sing especially high at all, notably Lester Flatt
and Carter Stanley. Probably a more universal feature of the vocal styling
the effect of a southern accent on vowel sounds, but this is not essential
either. Bluegrass singing was often rough-edge simply because Monroe, Flatt,
Stanley, and many others were not trained vocalists nor were they especially
interested in fancy or smooth vocal technique. They sang with power, for
emotional impact. Some of the early (and modern) vocalists were crooners,
for example Mac Wiseman, Charlie Waller, etc., though a distinct southern
accent was still part of the formula. More recent vocalists have broken
the southern accent barrier, and also have introduced more trained and
disciplined voices, such as John Duffey and even John Cowan's rock&roll
styling, though you wouldn't consider their work part of the "classic"
bluegrass style. One difference between "traditional" and "modern" bands
is that highly-polished singing is not essential for the classic style,
while more modern or progressive bands work on it anyway. (Note, I am
*not* using the term polished as a synonym for good.)
It's important to put Monroe's and others' "invention" into perspective.
Monroe was neither a traditionalist nor a historian; he was simply trying
to be a successful working musician. His artistic choices were intended
to satisfy his sense of what worked, and also to make his music popular,
more commercial. There were others playing the same sort of music, and
every band had a slightly different style. In the same way, you could
say that one form of modern rock&roll was "invented" by the Beatles out
of earlier components. However they were not alone doing it, since other
bands like the Dave Clark Five and the Rolling Stones emerged about the
same time, with sounds similar in some ways but different in some details.
All of the early bluegrass-like bands played music based on contemporary
country-folk material, and all of them were trying for commercial success,
with live concerts, recordings, and radio. In fact, it's safe to say that
since the advent of recording and radio technology, very little music has
been unaffected by commercial endeavors. Certainly the classic bluegrass
style was developed to be a commercially successful performance style.
Has it become "traditional"? Well, how long does it take for tradition
to become real? Monroe has been playing for over 60 years, though not
always with the same instrumentation. In its formative period, blugrass
was based on the traditional material of the day, but certainly wasn't
traditional as a style. Nowadays, that 60 years looks like a long time
when synthesizer technology changes every year and folks sing their kids
to sleep with Beatles songs. I would contend that much of what we call
"folk" music today is no more folk than bluegrass or Mozart, except that
its stylistic components are derived from folk sources and it uses folk
or folk-like instrumentation, etc. When Patty Larkin writes about toxic
waste, that is not a folk song. Perhaps Jean Redpath is closer to being
"true" folk, but that isn't what generally passes for folk music in today's
marketplace. The term singer/songwriter is accurate, but how can you write
new folk songs? By this argument too, "This Land Is Your Land" wasn't a
folksong when Woodie Guthrie wrote it, but most people would have considered
it a folksong even 30 years ago.
From <1991Oct23....@wpi.WPI.EDU> dr...@wpi.WPI.EDU (Deborah M Riel):
>Yes, this is what I've heard at every Peter Rowan show that I've
>attended. He used to be with Bill Monroe and does a _lot_ of his music.
When it comes to styling, Peter Rowan is rather an odd case, sort of like
looking up the definition of a word in "Mother Earth News". He has been
known to "borrow" elements from lots of sources.
From <1991Oct23.1...@cs.dal.ca> bul...@ug.cs.dal.ca (Fred Bulger):
>I've always felt that bluegrass was simply country music sung through your
>nose - it kind of has the nasal quality, if you know what I mean.
See my earlier paragraphs. Did Hank Williams sing through his nose? Whether
he did or didn't, it still wouldn't have sounded like bluegrass. Country,
as we know it today, had roots in traditional rural music. Like bluegrass,
it evolved along with the recording and radio industries, but it did not
eschew the evolving electric-instrument technology.
>In regards to country and folk music, I love folk music and yet I dislike
>almost all country music. So, to me, country music is boring and uninspiring;
>whereas folk music is rich and fullfilling. That's how I tell the two apart.
Everyone has his/her own tastes, but perhaps you should try again. Some of
the best bluegrass can be extremely inspiring, but if you go into it with no
familiarity, you may have to listen through your expectations and learn to
"appreciate" sounds that at first seem "odd". Then too, there are good and
bad bands in any music form, bluegrass, country, folk, rock, classical, etc.
For my tastes, most country is like rock. There are some terrific singers,
but most of it just sounds commercial; it has decent enough musical content
(rhythm, chords, etc.) but is devoid of much emotional impact. Some of
the worst offenders to my sensibilities have been folk singers. After 20
minutes you feel like you've heard absolutely everything they know, they
could just reshuffle the words and sing the same songs over again. And two
thirds of the material has a self-righteous attitude about rather obvious
issues, so the audience/performer combination ends up seeming like the
preacher preaching to the choir and the choir feeling good about how good
they are. Then there are people like Patty Larkin and Christine Lavin who
can make you feel good and entertain you and open your eyes and educate you
at the same time. These folks give folksingers, oops, singer/songwriters a
good name, no matter how authentic they are.
Sorry about the length of this, but these are not sound-bite subjects.
Jim Muller
Paul Maclauchlan
> > What you have done is triggered a return of an old debate as to
> >"What is folk music?". I agree with the working definition which you are
> >not you can listen to it or perform it.
> <lots of interesting text removed>
>
> Then you have Garrison Keillor's definition. He had people
> send him snippets of songs they had learned as children. This
> resulted in some interesting music.
Also a very interesting book called (I think), The Prairie Home Companion
Folk Song Book. It contains all the great "schoolbus" and "summer camp"
songs you learned.
Buy it!
--
.../Paul Maclauchlan
Moore Corporation Limited, Toronto, Ontario (416) 364-2600
pa...@moore.com -or- {...!uunet,...!telly}!moore!paul
"...and me without my spoon!"
Ken Josenhans
>I am just come from China, and like American Folk song and country music
>very much. But I always get confused with this two. In my mind the folk
>song refered to the song that was sung by the people for many years and
>you can't tell who is the composer. But some American told me it is not
>true. So what's the difference between them?
The term "folk music" now has two meanings. Its most technical sense
is as you describe above. However, for better or worse, it now *also*
describes a commercial genre of music which is (mostly) acoustic and
(sometimes) influenced by traditional tunes and songs. The commercial
genre seems to have grown out of the 1950's and 1960's revival of
interest in traditional folk music, and for better or worse the commercial
fates of the two are now bound together.
(The oral tradition was pretty effectively dead with radio and
recordings, anyway.)
The term "classical music" also has a technical meaning and a commercial
meaning. Technically, Bach is a Baroque composer and Beethoven is a
Romantic, but in stores they are filed in the Classical section along
with Mozart & Haydn. Somehow the "classical" music fans manage not
to argue about this too much.
(The real difference between Folk and Country is that most of the Folk
audience is politically liberal, and most of the Country audience is
politically conservative.... (1/2 :-) )
>>By the way,would you introduce some folk song to me?
Oh, boy. Traditional American material is NOT my strong point.
Don Nichols' suggestions sounded good for things that have passed into
the realm of the academy, but for stuff likely to be available in stores
the only suggestions I can think of offhand are Doc Watson and The Weavers.
The salesperson at Elderly Instruments, a mail-order folk music store,
suggested a new Smithsonian/Folkways album called
SING FOR FREEDOM, a collection of songs from the 1960's civil rights
movement, which is entirely a black perspective but probably quite
worthwhile.
Do let us know what you find, and what you think of it...
--
--Ken Josenhans
BITNET: 13020KRJ@MSU Internet: 1302...@msu.edu
y...@ecl.psu.edu
Above is the question I post several days ago. I just want to know some
brief concepts on Folk and Country music. Now I am glad to think all of you
for your attention.
Now it seems that you begin a discussion far more than answering my question,
if you like, you can go on, but it seems endless. In china we also have topics
like this, such as "Pop and classical music, which is better?". I think it is
just the favourate of different people, you cannot draw an universal conclu-
sion. The same is "Folk and Country music". I don't realize this topic is so
sensitive to you at first. Now I think we'd better stop it and find more
meaningful and interesting topic.
THank you.
Yang
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>I've been trying to keep out of this, but so much water has gone under the
>dam that I might as well jump in, grab the bull by the horns of a dilemma,
>and face the musical chairs. If I've gotten any of these attributions mixed
>up, I apologize. The chain has rather too many links already. I've played
>both folk and bluegrass and listened to a fair amount of country too, so I
>know a fair amount about them.
[ Good summary of bluegrass deleted to save sace ]
>(rhythm, chords, etc.) but is devoid of much emotional impact. Some of
>the worst offenders to my sensibilities have been folk singers. After 20
>minutes you feel like you've heard absolutely everything they know, they
>could just reshuffle the words and sing the same songs over again. And two
>thirds of the material has a self-righteous attitude about rather obvious
>issues, so the audience/performer combination ends up seeming like the
>preacher preaching to the choir and the choir feeling good about how good
>they are. Then there are people like Patty Larkin and Christine Lavin who
>can make you feel good and entertain you and open your eyes and educate you
>at the same time. These folks give folksingers, oops, singer/songwriters a
>good name, no matter how authentic they are.
Generally, I think that the ones who you describe in the early part
of this paragraph are the ones I would consider to not be *true folk*, and
for the most part not singing true folk songs. When the message in the main
content of the song, rather than the story and the music, then I find myself
tuning out, even if I happen to agree with the message. When I listen to
music, I don't *WANT* a "message", I want a good song, with a good story,
and preferably, a good singable chorus. There are a few who can put a
message in without killing it as a song and a story, but most cannot. The
majority of the songs by Magpie (Greg Artzner and Terry Leonino) on the
_Living Planet_ CD do carry a message, but are excellent songs anyway. Much
of what I listen to today I might call "folk inspired", but not call
"folk". (There are few performers around who actually grew up in a
tradition, and who are then willing to travel to make that tradition
available to outsiders.) Many I would call "Singers of Folk Songs", since
they sing what I would accept as folk songs, though most of them sing other
songs as well, including some of their own writing. Those who sing their
own writings almost exclusivly, I would call "Singer-Songwriters", and the
*best* of these can produce songs with the feel of having been around for
generations, even if they contain anachronisms which identify them as being
from our time, the *feeling* they leave is what matters to me. A song that
needs to be supported by its author probably can't survive without him/her,
but a song which can be comfortably be introduced into a mellow evening song
swap by any reasonable voice will live for much longer, perhaps long enough
to qualify as a folk song in the technical sense, though none of us are
likely to be around to celebrate its status.
Remember that I use the term "folk song" in its technical sense, and
do not consider whether or not it achieves that status or not to be a reason
to accept or ignore the song.
>Sorry about the length of this, but these are not sound-bite subjects.
>Jim Muller
I agree, so here goes the bandwidth of the group again. (Maybe
we'll top the alt.folklore.urban byte count during this :-)
Dustin Clampitt
>
> I've always felt that bluegrass was simply country music sung through your
>nose - it kind of has the nasal quality, if you know what I mean.
Well, Del McCoury is a good example of the traditional "through the nose"
style, and I suppose maybe it is an acquired taste, but I think Dwight
Yoakum is kinda "nasally", and I'm sure we could think of other country
singers with the same affliction so I can't completely agree with nasal
quality as a distinguishing attribute. (Nothin' like a good run on
sentence! :-)
>
> In regards to country and folk music, I love folk music and yet I dislike
> almost all country music. So, to me, country music is boring and uninspiring;
> whereas folk music is rich and fullfilling. That's how I tell the two apart.
>
> Fred.
I've heard Bluegrass described as, "Folk music in Overdrive". But BG is
also country music in an arrested state of development if you consider
current C&W as both "country" and progress. :-)
Dustin
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Elfy of Atlantis
Surely the greatest of modern poets is g...@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks), who wrote:
>I thought bluegrass was an invented style rather than a traditional
>one. I also thought it didn't go back all that far (didn't Bill
>Monroe invent Bluegrass?).
Depends on how you mean. It is a fact that the term "bluegrass" came
into use to describe the music of Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys,
and other bands which adopted (or adapted) their style. However,
some people would use the term "bluegrass" to describe some of the music
that influenced Monroe's style -- traditional mountain music, for example,
or country "string-band" music of the '20s and '30s (which also derived
from mountain music). This is probably closer to the "common sense"
definition that most people who aren't serious bluegrass fans have of
the term.
-- Stewart
--
"I unplug appliances with wet hands."
-- Curtis Galloway (cur...@sco.COM)
/* uunet!sco!stewarte -or- stew...@sco.COM -or- Stewart Evans */
Ellen Mitsue Eades
You will get as many different answers as there are people. I like to say
there is not much difference between folk and country music, because I like
both folk and country. People who hate country, however, insist that there
is a *huge* difference :-)
Historically, American folk music comes from many very different national
musics. Early immigrants from the British Isles brought with them their
dance tunes -- reels, jigs, hornpipes -- and their old ballads, anonymous
songs about family, murder, love, horse-thieving, and other important subjects.
African slaves derived the banjo from gourd instruments they had known,
and brought blues rhythms and melodies from Africa. Christian revival
meetings produced white spirituals and black gospel. All these elements
combined in the music of the American people, especially in the last thirty
to fifty years, when radio and recordings made black music available to
white people and brought old-timey music out of the Appalachian hills into
the homes of city folks. I usually find *pure* old-timey, country blues,
gospel, ballads, and white spirituals too unfamiliar for me to really
enjoy, but I really do enjoy finding elements of each in folk/country music.
When I think of folk music, I *usually* think of it as primarily having
acoustic instruments, while I think of country and rock'n'roll as primarily
having electric instruments. I think of country as continuing to deal with
subjects like murder, love, family, and car-thieving (the modern equivalent
of horse-thieving, yes?) while folk music often explores political themes,
friendship, modern times, childhood, or regional influences like sea songs
or forestry songs or cowboy songs. Both can have "blues" influences in the
melody (blues scales, blue notes) or the lyrics (hard times, lost love). I
usually think of silly kids' songs like Woody Guthrie's "Mail Myself to You"
as folk music.
Modern folk song also includes a genre called "singer-songwriter," in
which one person with a guitar stands up and sings original songs that they
have written in the style of older folk music, blues, or country music.
Carl Sandburg was the one that said, "If folks sing it, it's folk song." I
tend to agree with him.
--
Ellen Eades Excel User Education, Microsoft Corp.
"Just call me F.G.M. I hate excess verbiage." _Twice Upon a Time_
Nur Iskandar Taib
>> >"What is folk music?". I agree with the working definition which you are
>> >not you can listen to it or perform it.
>> <lots of interesting text removed>
>>
>> Then you have Garrison Keillor's definition. He had people
>> send him snippets of songs they had learned as children. This
>> resulted in some interesting music.
>
>Also a very interesting book called (I think), The Prairie Home Companion
>Folk Song Book. It contains all the great "schoolbus" and "summer camp"
>songs you learned.
Does it have the one sung to "Greesleeves"...
I met my love at a grocery store...
..
..
And I longed to kiss those ruby red lips
But green stamps were all she gave
And green stamps were all I took
Green stamps were all she gave
And I pasted them all in my green stamp book
I've been trying to find the words for some time
now....
Network News
>>Also a very interesting book called (I think), The Prairie Home Companion
>>Folk Song Book. It contains all the great "schoolbus" and "summer camp"
>>songs you learned.
>
>
>Does it have the one sung to "Greesleeves"...
>
>I met my love at a grocery store...
>..
>..
>And I longed to kiss those ruby red lips
>
>
>But green stamps were all she gave
>And green stamps were all I took
>Green stamps were all she gave
>And I pasted them all in my green stamp book
>
>
>I've been trying to find the words for some time
>now....
From: j...@abacus.uucp (Joan Frankel)
Path: abacus!jmf
OK, you're on:
I met my love in a grocery shop
I went there to buy a few bottles of pop
She asked me to try her asparagus tips
And I fell for the smile on her ruby red lips.
Greenstamps were all she gave
and Greenstamps were all I took
Greenstamps were all I saved
and I pasted them up in my Greenstamp book.
I do believe there's even another verse, but it hasn't bubbled up
through the mental soup just yet
-Glad to have been of service, if any
Don Nichols (DoN.)
[ ... ]
>Does it have the one sung to "Greesleeves"...
>
>I met my love at a grocery store...
>..
>..
>And I longed to kiss those ruby red lips
>
>
>But green stamps were all she gave
>And green stamps were all I took
>Green stamps were all she gave
>And I pasted them all in my green stamp book
>
>
>I've been trying to find the words for some time
>now....
That was recorded on the album _My Son the Folksinger_, by Allan
Sherman. It was an early-sixties recording. I don't have it, I'm sorry to
say. It also had "The Drapes of Roth", among other parodies.
The words ARE in a database of song lyrics available from Dick
Greenhaus. To use this, you must have access to a machine which runs
MESS-DOS. It now is up to something like 5 360k floppys, or two 1.2MB
floppys, if I remember correctly. To get it, you send him the blank,
formatted floppys, and he will copy the database and programs onto the
floppys and mail them back to you. It would be nice for you to include a
self-addressed mailing label to put on the floppy mailer, and adequate
postge to get it from him back to you. THERE IS NO CHARGE! He's not in it
for the money, he just likes accumulating this database, and making it
available. It is designed for those who need documentation on
drool-proof-paper. He has told me that the only people who have trouble
setting up the package are those who think that they understand and go ahead
with a shortcut. Those who follow the directions exactly have no trouble.
Mail the floppys to him at:
Dick Greenhaus
28 Powell Street
Greenwich CT, 06830
Telephone:
(203) 531-7314
He is also glad to accept additions from others, preferably on
ms-dos floppy as a plain ascii file.
He does not have net access.
I do not have the up-to-date database, so please use usSnail.
Enjoy
DoN.
Mike Coughlin
Allright you guys with 19 inch monitors and X-windows: you don't have to fill
up the whole screen! How do you expect anybody to read all these messages?
Folk music is learned at an early age and is something you want to hear, sing
and play all your life. Country music is the popular music of rural areas and
gets changed because the performers get tired of doing the same songs too much.
Americal Folk music and country music are related because folk musicians
usually live in the country. City people hear music from so many different
times and places that they never decide what music is a permanent part of their
culture. City people like to look at the little differences in the way people
have preserved old music without writing it down and don't notice how the
musical style that makes folk music what it is changes very little over the
centuries.
Nur Iskandar Taib
>
>>Does it have the one sung to "Greesleeves"...
>>
>>I met my love at a grocery store...
>>..
>>..
>>And I longed to kiss those ruby red lips
>>
>>
>>But green stamps were all she gave
>>And green stamps were all I took
>>Green stamps were all she gave
>>And I pasted them all in my green stamp book
>>
>>
>>I've been trying to find the words for some time
>>now....
Hmmmmm...
The Allen Sherman song isn't the same one. Here is
what I got off the Lyric server:
+Green Stamps
Thrill me with your Green Stamps.
I love your little Green Stamps.
I took collecting Green Stamps.
I love the way they look.
Oh how I love to pick them.
I pick them up, and lick them.
I lick them, then I stick them
In my brown Green Stamp book.
All day and night I'm dreaming.
I'm dreaming of redeeming
My Green Stamps for a toaster,
So gleaming and deluxe.
Oh how it will thrill me,
And please me and fulfill me,
To know my toaster only cost me
Fourteen hundred bucks.
I drive up to the market.
I stop my car and park it.
I buy a lot of strange things
Of which I've never heard.
I buy, though it's not urgent,
Two truckloads of detergent,
Three hundred pounds of bird seed,
Though I don't have a bird.
Some extract of vanilla,
Enough to feed Godzilla.
Then I'll trade all my Green Stamps
For something I can drive.
A car is what I hope for,
What I bought all that soap for.
They promise me the first Studebaker
Made in 1965.