Song posted to alt.music.filk
Rob Wynne
bawdy, and we figured it was better safe than sorry on where the real
line is for this group. :)
-R
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
The best original science-fiction and fantasy on the web:
Aphelion Webzine: http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Gafilk 2003: Jan 10-12, 2003, Atlanta, GA -- http://www.gafilk.org/
Lee Gold
songbook) at $10 up through the convention and $5 plus songbook
postage afterwards.
Gary McGath wrote "contributors could conceivably get upset if
a book for which they provided songs for no charge continued
to be sold after the con."
If anyone who contributed wishes to withdraw their song
because the songbook will still be sold after the convention,
please let me know.
I'll publish the songbook ToC here in a few weeks once I'm
sure that all current contributors still want their songs
included.
And of course the ConChord 2002 songbook is also looking for
contributions (and will also be available to supporting members
after the convention is over). Deadline is June 30th.
--Lee
Lee Gold
>
> In article <3C5EA957...@mediaone.net>,
> Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > Consonance will be selling Supporting Memberships (including the
> > songbook) at $10 up through the convention and $5 plus songbook
> > postage afterwards.
> >
> > Gary McGath wrote "contributors could conceivably get upset if
> > a book for which they provided songs for no charge continued
> > to be sold after the con."
> >
> > If anyone who contributed wishes to withdraw their song
> > because the songbook will still be sold after the convention,
> > please let me know.
>
> it's been a guideline we've used for songbooks here in the east. It's
> not really likely to get people upset unless it's an ongoing publication
> and post-con sales are a sizable fraction of total sales.
It may be an East vs West Coast thing.
Umm, I think I've sold five runs of the ConChord songbooks --
plus some to people who used to attend but moved out of the
area, and some of people who were members but have lost their
songbooks over the years.
I'm glad to know that your song is staying in.
--Lee
Lee Gold
>
> Just posted a new song to alt.music.filk. While not explicit, it is
> bawdy, and we figured it was better safe than sorry on where the real
> line is for this group. :)
And it's started a very off-topic discussion of scansion,
what vowels to put on long or high notes, and other technical
considerations.
--Lee
Rob Wynne
>Rob Wynne wrote:
>And it's started a very off-topic discussion of scansion,
>what vowels to put on long or high notes, and other technical
>considerations.
Actually, I woudln't call it off-topic. It's a good nuts-and-bolts
discussion that would probably be of interest to people who want to
write tighter parodies. :)
Lee Gold
>
> Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >Rob Wynne wrote:
> >And it's started a very off-topic discussion of scansion,
> >what vowels to put on long or high notes, and other technical
> >considerations.
>
> Actually, I woudln't call it off-topic. It's a good nuts-and-bolts
> discussion that would probably be of interest to people who want to
> write tighter parodies. :)
Off-topic for the newsgroup, which we've defined as being about
bawdy stuff.
Oops, if I'd only used the terminology I grew up with and
referred to male and female syllables/rhymes instead of
strong/weak ones, it would at least have *sounded* bawdy.
Come to think of it, there's probably a song there somewhere
with a verse about rhymes and another about cord-plugs
and maybe a third about nouns.
--Lee
Mary Crowell
wrote on 2/5/02 6:55 AM:
> Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>> Rob Wynne wrote:
>> And it's started a very off-topic discussion of scansion,
>> what vowels to put on long or high notes, and other technical
>> considerations.
>
> Actually, I woudln't call it off-topic. It's a good nuts-and-bolts
> discussion that would probably be of interest to people who want to
> write tighter parodies. :)
>
> -R
I know I've been learning alot!
Mary Crowell
-- "Some luck lies in not getting what you thought you wanted but getting
what you have, which once you have it you may be smart enough to see is what
you would have wanted had you known."
-- Garrison Keillor
Mary Crowell
wrote on 2/5/02 10:10 AM:
> Come to think of it, there's probably a song there somewhere
> with a verse about rhymes and another about cord-plugs
> and maybe a third about nouns.
>
> --Lee
Nouns . . .
I put a dime in the drug store record machine . . . My son and I watched
Grammar rock for the eightieth time last night.
You COULD go ahead and post a bawdy bit about male and female syllables in
alt. . . . er . . . alt.music.filk. *grins* Or you could just explain
what they are to someone who hasn't studied poetic meter in many years.
That would be me. :-)
Mary Crowell
-- "The very essence of literature is the war between emotion and intellect,
between life and death. When literature becomes too intellectual... when it
begins to ignore the passions, the motions... it becomes sterile, silly, and
actually without substance."
-- Isaac Bashevis Singer
Kevin Wald
> Oops, if I'd only used the terminology I grew up with and
> referred to male and female syllables/rhymes instead of
> strong/weak ones, it would at least have *sounded* bawdy.
>
> Come to think of it, there's probably a song there somewhere
> with a verse about rhymes and another about cord-plugs
> and maybe a third about nouns.
You're probably thinking of Gummo's verse of "Everyone Says 'I Love You'"
in _Horsefeathers_:
Everything says, "I love you";
Inanimate items we divide into
Two genders by convention, when we do, start to woo
With "I love you."
Rhymes that use (like "schmoo" and "goo")
One syllable always fall for those with two;
The female "hanky-panky" they are sure to pursue
With "I love you."
(We could put put a whole verse on sockets and plugs right here,
But alas, things would get too graphic if we did, I fear.)
Nouns that end in eta clue
Their lust for the manly eta-sigmas, who
To alpha and omega (never omicron-nu)
Say, "I love you."
Kevin Wald wa...@math.uconn.edu "Attend the tale of Thelma Todd,/A college
http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~wald widow with quite a bod ..." (_The Enigma_)
Lee Gold
>
> in article 3C60064B...@mediaone.net, Lee Gold at lee...@mediaone.net
> wrote on 2/5/02 10:10 AM:
>
> > Come to think of it, there's probably a song there somewhere
> > with a verse about rhymes and another about cord-plugs
> > and maybe a third about nouns.
> >
> > --Lee
>
> Nouns . . .
>
> I put a dime in the drug store record machine . . . My son and I watched
> Grammar rock for the eightieth time last night.
I was thinking of nouns in languages where nouns have gender:
French, German, Latin,....
>
> You COULD go ahead and post a bawdy bit about male and female syllables in
> alt. . . . er . . . alt.music.filk. *grins* Or you could just explain
> what they are to someone who hasn't studied poetic meter in many years.
> That would be me. :-)
Back in the 1950s and before, a one-syllable rhyme on a stess
syllabe was a male rhyme. A two or more syllable rhyme with
the first syllable being stressed was a female rhyme.
And oh yes, now that I'm thinking of it, the Greeks considered
odd numbers to be male and female numbers to be even, which
ended up influencing the number of days in a calendar month
because a month with an even number of days would be unlucky.
--Lee
Lee Gold
>
> Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<3C60064B...@mediaone.net>...
>
> > Oops, if I'd only used the terminology I grew up with and
> > referred to male and female syllables/rhymes instead of
> > strong/weak ones, it would at least have *sounded* bawdy.
> >
> > Come to think of it, there's probably a song there somewhere
> > with a verse about rhymes and another about cord-plugs
> > and maybe a third about nouns.
>
> You're probably thinking of Gummo's verse of "Everyone Says 'I Love You'"
> in _Horsefeathers_:
No. I saw the movie about 35 years ago but don't remember
anything from it. I was thinking a bit about Twain's essay
on the German language.
--Lee
Martin DeMello
> You COULD go ahead and post a bawdy bit about male and female syllables in
> alt. . . . er . . . alt.music.filk. *grins* Or you could just explain
> what they are to someone who hasn't studied poetic meter in many years.
> That would be me. :-)
The way I learnt it, masculine rhymes are single - i.e., the rhyme is
on a single, stressed syllable. Feminine rhymes are multiple (hm -
sort of like orgasms :) there's a filk in there, there is), and
consist of rhyming stressed syllables followed by identical unstressed
ones. I've also seen the term 'feminine' specifically restricted to
double rhymes, to distinguish them from triple rhymes, but I don't
think that's a common usage.
Or, with reference to a well-known limerick...
There was a young fellow from Sydney A
Who with alcohol ruined his kidney A
He drank and he drank B
Till it shrivelled and shrank B
But he had a good time at it, didney? A
the As are feminine rhymes and the Bs masculine.
--
Martin DeMello
David Wegener
"Diving into an ocean of verbs to emerge, dripping, on the far shore with a
subject clenched in his teeth?"
Or something like?
--Dave, IIRC.
"Lee Gold" <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3C605D88...@mediaone.net...
Mary Crowell
wrote on 2/5/02 4:17 PM:
>> Nouns . . .
>>
>> I put a dime in the drug store record machine . . . My son and I watched
>> Grammar rock for the eightieth time last night.
>
> I was thinking of nouns in languages where nouns have gender:
> French, German, Latin,....
Gotcha. Someone once posted a list of nouns in the English language and
what they thought their genders should be and why. It was pretty funny
although very sexist and not to be posted here. It also included a list of
new definitions for old words such as
Esplanade (v.), to attempt an explanation while drunk.
> Back in the 1950s and before, a one-syllable rhyme on a stess
> syllabe was a male rhyme. A two or more syllable rhyme with
> the first syllable being stressed was a female rhyme.
What about a multi-syllable word that has the emphasis on the second
syllable like 'decide?'
> And oh yes, now that I'm thinking of it, the Greeks considered
> odd numbers to be male and female numbers to be even, which
> ended up influencing the number of days in a calendar month
> because a month with an even number of days would be unlucky.
I'm pleased to be born in a female month then -- even if it IS the shortest
month of the year.
Mary Crowell
-- If the king loves music, there is little wrong in the land.
--Mencius (371-289 B.C.), Chinese Philosopher
Mary Crowell
martin...@yahoo.com wrote on 2/5/02 5:00 PM:
> Or, with reference to a well-known limerick...
>
> There was a young fellow from Sydney A
> Who with alcohol ruined his kidney A
> He drank and he drank B
> Till it shrivelled and shrank B
> But he had a good time at it, didney? A
>
> the As are feminine rhymes and the Bs masculine.
*grins* But, still I have the question. What about two or more syllable
rhymes where the emphasis is on the second syllable? Any gender there?
Mary Crowell
-- Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one.
--Malcolm S. Forbes
Lee Gold
>
> Was it
> "Diving into an ocean of verbs to emerge, dripping, on the far shore with a
> subject clenched in his teeth?"
>
> Or something like?
Yes but I was thinking more about his indignation about noun gender.
Gretchen. Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
Wilhelm. She has gone to the kitchen.
Gretchen. Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
Wilhelm. It has gone to the opera."
Lee Gold
>
> What about a multi-syllable word that has the emphasis on the second
> syllable like 'decide?'
I don't know for sure.
Probably some variation on "male": e.g.
Regicide & Decide is a one-syllable male rhyme
Beside & Decide is a two-syllable male rhyme
But I could be wrong.
--Lee
Lee Gold
At least one webpage http://qqqf1.myetang.com/rhyme2.htm
claims that
all one syllable rhymes are male
all two syllable rhymes are female
all three syllable rhymes are triple rhyme
All the others I've seen claim that
only stressed end syllables qualify for a male rhyme
only double-syllable rhymes with the last syllable
being unstressed qualify for female rhymes
No wonder our enlightened age has abandoned the terminology.
--Lee
Kevin Wald
> Kevin Wald wrote:
> > You're probably thinking of Gummo's verse of "Everyone Says 'I Love You'"
> > in _Horsefeathers_:
>
> No. I saw the movie about 35 years ago but don't remember
> anything from it. I was thinking a bit about Twain's essay
> on the German language.
Sorry about that -- I probably should have included smilage. Gummo wasn't
in _Horsefeathers_ (or any of the movies, in fact), and though each of his
brothers does deliver his own version of the song in the movie, none of
these discuss rhyme schemes, electrical plugs, or nouns. What I posted was
just an instafilk.
Kevin Wald wa...@math.uconn.edu | The archer with a longbow and an arrow
http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~wald | or two/Says I love yew.
Mary Crowell
wrote on 2/6/02 12:15 AM:
That's right!! Das Madchen [umlaut the 'a'] is girl or maiden. I remember
wondering about that in German class.
Mary Crowell
-- My candle burns at both ends; it will not last the night; but ah, my
foes, and, oh, my friends -- it gives a lovely light.
--Edna St. VIncent Millay, 'First Fig'
Mary Crowell
wrote on 2/6/02 12:43 AM:
> At least one webpage http://qqqf1.myetang.com/rhyme2.htm
> claims that
> all one syllable rhymes are male
> all two syllable rhymes are female
> all three syllable rhymes are triple rhyme
> All the others I've seen claim that
> only stressed end syllables qualify for a male rhyme
> only double-syllable rhymes with the last syllable
> being unstressed qualify for female rhymes
> No wonder our enlightened age has abandoned the terminology.
>
> --Lee
I have book marked this site. Now when I'm rhyming I can explain the facts
of life to my lyrics. ;-)
Mary Crowell
-- Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
--Abraham Lincoln
Mary Crowell
gmc...@REMOVETHISmcgath.com wrote on 2/6/02 6:14 AM:
> Only the final stressed syllable counts toward the rhyme in that case.
> You can rhyme "decide" with "deride" or "defied," but "pride" and
> "confide" are equally valid rhymes. So it's a male rhyme.
Fair enough. That makes good sense. Thanks. :-)
Mary Crowell
-- A committee is a cul-de-sac down which ideas are lured and then quietly
strangled.
--Sir Barnett Cocks
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> That's right!! Das Madchen [umlaut the 'a'] is girl or maiden.
Perhaps on the same principle that causes some immature farm
animals to be given a separate, neuter, category rather then
the gendered version -- it's too young to know its own
gender, so it doesn't matter except in long-term plans.
(I was told that "girl" at one time referred to a young
child of either sex. I haven't checked that claim.)
ObSong: Cue all the variants on "When I was a boy"
-- My bread is dough on both its sides; I will not take a
bite...
(Shakespeare as interpreted by Edna St. VIncent Millay)
--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number
generator
Lee Gold
>
> Mary Crowell wrote:
> > That's right!! Das Madchen [umlaut the 'a'] is girl or maiden.
>
> Perhaps on the same principle that causes some immature farm
> animals to be given a separate, neuter, category rather then
> the gendered version -- it's too young to know its own
> gender, so it doesn't matter except in long-term plans.
Because the -chen diminutive always means a neuter gender.
One dialect of German gets around all those bothersome genders
to memorize by having all nouns be -chen diminutives.
--Lee
keith lim
> Perhaps on the same principle that causes some immature farm
> animals to be given a separate, neuter, category rather then
> the gendered version -- it's too young to know its own
> gender, so it doesn't matter except in long-term plans.
(Just being picky on terminology.) I think it would be better to say
"...it's too young to know its own sex, ...". Not "gender". "Gender" is
a linguistic term. It describes a device foisted onto words of
particular languages. As has already been covered in this thread, the
gender of words only occasionally matches the sex of the entities being
referred to (if they have a sex at all).
An aide-memoire: "Words have gender; people have sex".
Changing "gender" to "sex" in your sentence kind of ruins the argument,
but then again, I don't think that most animals ever think about their
sex (male/female) in an abstract way, and even if they did, why should
that affect how humans decide on the gender of their word-names in a
particular language.
Having said that, let me also mention how much I appreciate the
*correct* use of both "it's" and "its" in the same sentence. It's a pity
such knowledge isn't more widely known.
--
keith lim keit...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~keithlim/
I'm not a kook, but I play one on the 'net.
Mark A. Mandel
: Back in the 1950s and before, a one-syllable rhyme on a stess
: syllabe was a male rhyme. A two or more syllable rhyme with
: the first syllable being stressed was a female rhyme.
I know those as "masculine/feminine", not "male/female".
-- Mark A. Mandel
--
To reply by email, remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.
Mark A. Mandel
AmerHeritageDict, 4th edn:
masculine ending: a stressed syllable that ends a line of verse
masculine rhyme: a rhyme made on a single stressed syllable, as in
"sky/fly"
feminine ending: an extra unstressed syllable at the end of a line of
verse
feminine rhyme: a rhyme in which the final syllable is unstressed, as in
"feather/heather"
As I've always understood it, you test the rhyme by starting with the
stressed syllable and looking to the right of it. If there are (rhyming)
syllables after it, the rhyme is feminine; if not (and it is therefore the
last syllable of the line), the rhyme is masculine.
Mark A. Mandel
: You're probably thinking of Gummo's verse of "Everyone Says 'I Love You'"
: in _Horsefeathers_:
: Everything says, "I love you";
: Inanimate items we divide into
: Two genders by convention, when we do, start to woo
: With "I love you."
:
: Rhymes that use (like "schmoo" and "goo")
: One syllable always fall for those with two;
: The female "hanky-panky" they are sure to pursue
: With "I love you."
: (We could put put a whole verse on sockets and plugs right here,
: But alas, things would get too graphic if we did, I fear.)
: Nouns that end in eta clue
: Their lust for the manly eta-sigmas, who
: To alpha and omega (never omicron-nu)
: Say, "I love you."
Omigod! I never caught that... you're not putting us on, are you?
-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
Philological Busybody
a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
Mark A. Mandel
:> That's right!! Das Madchen [umlaut the 'a'] is girl or maiden.
: Perhaps on the same principle that causes some immature farm
: animals to be given a separate, neuter, category rather then
: the gendered version -- it's too young to know its own
: gender, so it doesn't matter except in long-term plans.
Simpler. The diminutive ending "-chen" is neuter. Period.
: (I was told that "girl" at one time referred to a young
: child of either sex. I haven't checked that claim.)
True.
Martin DeMello
*Is* beside/decide a two syllable rhyme? On one hand it seems to me that the
be/de part don't really participate in the rhyme, and that their rhyming is
an irrelevant coincidence; OTOH it does blur the fact that one is
essentially rhyming 'side' with 'cide'. I think on the whole I'd call it a
one syllable (masculine) rhyme, given that rhyming is technically from the
last stressed syllable onwards.
--
Martin DeMello
Martin DeMello
> Sorry about that -- I probably should have included smilage. Gummo wasn't
> in _Horsefeathers_ (or any of the movies, in fact), and though each of his
> brothers does deliver his own version of the song in the movie, none of
> these discuss rhyme schemes, electrical plugs, or nouns. What I posted was
> just an instafilk.
And a good one too :)
--
Martin DeMello
Martin DeMello
> If you wrote a song in which the rhyme scheme consistently matched the
> weak syllable before the final strong syllable in each pair of lines,
> then you could say you had two-syllable rhymes. It would be quite a
> technical challenge to write something that way.
TTTO 'Soldiers of the Queen', from Patience
If you want to encompass the self-contradictory
Form of a double but masculine rhyme
Have all of your endings constrained to be stricter, e-
quating the offbeats and keeping in time
The trip of a trochee with downbeat emphatical
Flow of enjambment to run-on a line
Unorthodox syntax that's quasi-grammatical
Poetic licence averting a fine
Seduction of endings deceptively feminine
Shifting of stresses to make them align
Removal of elements, root, branch and stem in in-
sistent attempts at perfecting a rhine ["sorry, 'rhyme'"]
The cheerfully bawdy content of a limerick
Haiku, in English essentially chimeric
Ottava rima, with structure inviolate
Sestina, villanelle, rondeau and triolet
Sparkling epigram, rhetoric terse
Icelandic saga and heroic verse
Sift through these forms for a feature instillable
Focus upon the penultimate syllable
Pull out an optional rhyme from a sleeve
And a masculine double is what you achieve
If you want to perfect this appeal to perversity
Steal from the masters of old, if you can
The rhythms of Kipling in all their diversity
Poe, who proceeded according to plan
The panache of Lehrer reciting The Elements
Hopkins, whose lines are a trial to scan
The visions of Coleridge, whose dreams would compel him, in-
spiring verse without measure to man
The ripple of Swinburne, quite incomprehensible
Joyce and his followers, even less sensible
Snippets of Carroll, both curious and quizzical
Marvell and Donne with conceits metaphysical
William McGonagall, Chesterton, Pope
Gilbertansullivan, Strugnell 'n' Cope
Sift through their verses for lines ending stressedly
Notice the options that lurk there unguessedly
Give them a barely perceptible tweak
And a masculine double is what you will wreak
-- Martin DeMello
Notes: Wendy Cope is a marvellous poet and parodist, whose fictional
creation, Jason Strugnell, writes imitative verse in the manner of various
famous poets. The 'according to plan' bit refers to the essay in which Poe
outlines the severely intellectual side of 'The Raven's creation.
Gilbertansullivan is, of course, the delightful author of 'The Soldiers of
the Queen', whose tune this filk steals unapologetically.
--
Martin DeMello
Mark A. Mandel
: Gary McGath <gmc...@removethismcgath.com> wrote:
:> If you wrote a song in which the rhyme scheme consistently matched the
:> weak syllable before the final strong syllable in each pair of lines,
:> then you could say you had two-syllable rhymes. It would be quite a
:> technical challenge to write something that way.
: TTTO 'Soldiers of the Queen', from Patience
: If you want to encompass the self-contradictory
: Form of a double but masculine rhyme
: Have all of your endings constrained to be stricter, e-
: quating the offbeats and keeping in time
Oh glorious glorious glorious!!!!
-- Mark A. Mandel