OK, Enterprise...

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lizard

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Sep 27, 2001, 3:58:32 PM9/27/01
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...has premiered.

Instafilks?

Joel Polowin

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Sep 27, 2001, 6:57:34 PM9/27/01
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lizard wrote:
>
> ...has premiered.
>
> Instafilks?

Not yet, but I'll contribute a transcript of a secret recording from the
_Enterprise_ production offices:
----------

"... MORE sex? Look, we already changed that scene so they're arguing
about the Captain's intentions from stalls in the Officers' Showers...

"... NO, c'mon, get real, nobody would buy that. Even if there WAS
only one stall, they wouldn't share it, they'd take turns...

"... Well, maybe we can come up with some 'medical reason' for them to
grope each other. I mean, 'medical reasons' worked to justify
37D of 9's outfit..."

--
Joel Polowin jpolow...@sympatico.ca but delete "XYZZy" from address
The Rohirrim honoured their families and their horses. But
even there, it was possible to take things too far; and
Eohippus son of Eomund is omitted from most of the genealogies.

Dave Wegener

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Sep 27, 2001, 8:35:46 PM9/27/01
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Cohan, you barbarian?!?
<g,d,r>

--Dave.

Gary McGath <gmc...@REMOVETHISmcgath.com> wrote in message
news:gmcgath-D11144...@fridge.shore.net...
> In article <3BB384E8...@mrlizard.com>,
> lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote:
>
> TTTO "Harrigan":
> snip!<

SantaRon

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Sep 27, 2001, 8:43:43 PM9/27/01
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TTTO "When Johnny Comes Marching Home"

When the Vulcans came to us,
Hurrah, hurrah,
When the Vulcans came to us,
Hurrah, hurrah,
Their technology they did keep;
They forced us to take a quantum leap.
But they almost had feelings when Enterprise flew away.


--
There is in certain living souls, a quality of
loneliness unspeakable, so great it must be shared
as company is shared by lesser beings. Such a
loneliness is mine. So know by this, that in
immensity, there is one lonelier than you.
_Saucer of Loneliness_ by Theodore Sturgeon

ANSWERS TO: Ron dot Koolman at santaland dot com
Or de-spam e-mail header
Zero tolerance for *ALL* spam at this address.

Karen Rodgers

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Sep 27, 2001, 11:15:46 PM9/27/01
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On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:58:32 -0700, lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com>
wrote:

>...has premiered.
>
>Instafilks?

Here I thought you were going to comment on the pilot...

My thought, throw out everyone, writers and all, except Bacula, and
the guy playing the doctor.

(Down, down, flush this one down...)

Karen Rodgers

**********
Windbourne, folk singers of the future
http://www.windbourne.com/
please remove "rice_" to contact me
**********

John Creasey

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Sep 28, 2001, 12:11:43 AM9/28/01
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Karen Rodgers <krodgers@rice_home.com> wrote in message
news:3bb3eafa....@news.elcjn1.sdca.home.com...

> On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:58:32 -0700, lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com>
> wrote:
>
> >...has premiered.
> >
> >Instafilks?
>
> Here I thought you were going to comment on the pilot...
>
> My thought, throw out everyone, writers and all, except Bacula, and
> the guy playing the doctor.

That bad? I know Trek shows take a season or so to find themselves...

> (Down, down, flush this one down...)

I KNOW what you're filking...8-)

Mary


Kevin Wald

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Sep 28, 2001, 5:19:43 AM9/28/01
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In article <3BB384E8...@mrlizard.com>,

lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote:
>...has premiered.
>
>Instafilks?

(Tune: "Love Is Like A Butterfly")

Love is like a butterfly;
That is, it gets devoured by
The multicolored strippers in
A bar on Rigel Ten.
It makes their tums feel strange inside,
To eat those little bugs in flight.
Love is like a butterfly --
It's tasty, now and then.

Kevin Wald wa...@math.uconn.edu | "Catalog of ships -- I'll remember that."
http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~wald | -- Homer, _The Huntress and the Sphinx_

Harold Groot

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Sep 28, 2001, 6:20:15 AM9/28/01
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On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:43:43 GMT, ras...@cinci.really.sucks.rr.com
(SantaRon) wrote:

>TTTO "When Johnny Comes Marching Home"
>When the Vulcans came to us,
>Hurrah, hurrah,
>When the Vulcans came to us,
>Hurrah, hurrah,
>Their technology they did keep;
>They forced us to take a quantum leap.
>But they almost had feelings when Enterprise flew away.

The Vulcans are NOT transporteers....
Actually, after watching the thing I was thinking that the title of
the episode should be "Vulcans With Attitudes".

Rob Wynne

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Sep 28, 2001, 10:00:33 AM9/28/01
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Kevin Wald <wa...@ford.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>(Tune: "Love Is Like A Butterfly")
>
>Love is like a butterfly;
>That is, it gets devoured by
>The multicolored strippers in
>A bar on Rigel Ten.
>It makes their tums feel strange inside,
>To eat those little bugs in flight.
>Love is like a butterfly --
>It's tasty, now and then.

*stare*choke*ROFL*gasp*

Bravo!

Rob

--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
The best original science-fiction and fantasy on the web:
Aphelion Webzine: http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Gafilk 2002: Jan 11-13, 2002, Atlanta, GA -- http://www.gafilk.org/

Arthur Levesque

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Sep 28, 2001, 10:57:44 AM9/28/01
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>Kevin Wald <wa...@ford.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>(Tune: "Love Is Like A Butterfly")

"I eat little butterflies,
Sweet little butterflies
Though I could scarcely say why..."

TTTO: "Sweet Little Buttercup" from "HMS Pinafore"
--
/\ Arthur M Levesque 2A4W <*> b...@boog.orgy =/\= http://boog.org __
\B\ack King of the Potato People <fnord> "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!" (oO)
\S\lash Member of a vast right-wing conspiracy (-O-) Urban Spaceman /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable "I hate rainbows!"-EC

TTuerff

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Sep 28, 2001, 11:48:36 AM9/28/01
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"Lizard Lizard" wrote wrote:

<< ...has premiered.

Instafilks? >>

Oh, man, don't remind me. Now I'm going to have to watch five minutes or so so
I can write another verse to "Little Star Treks."

TT
www.cdbaby.com/tuerff

Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)

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Sep 28, 2001, 2:09:02 PM9/28/01
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Kevin Wald wrote:
> (Tune: "Love Is Like A Butterfly")
> It's tasty, now and then.

Nicely done. Succinct and apt...

--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
Opinions expressed are solely those of the author

Mark Kinney

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Sep 28, 2001, 8:03:56 PM9/28/01
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"lizard" <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote in message
news:3BB384E8...@mrlizard.com...
> ...has premiered.
>
> Instafilks?

Not an instafilk (I came up with it at work today), but....

Once a Starfleet captain met some pesky Sulibans
On their first mission away from Sol-3
Gone to take a Klingon messenger back to his world
On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee

On the starship Enterprise
On the starship Enterprise
On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee
Gone to take a Klingon messenger back to his world
On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee

--
albe...@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations
AKA Mirumoto Maaku, Annoying Bushi Clan Magistrate
"Know that a walk through the ocean of most souls will scarcely get your
feet wet. Fall not in love, therefore -- it will stick to your face."
-- National Lampoon, "Deteriorata"


Mark Kinney

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Sep 28, 2001, 8:15:40 PM9/28/01
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"Mark Kinney" <albe...@iglou.com> wrote in message
news:3bb4ffd4$1...@news.iglou.com...

> Once a Starfleet captain met some pesky Sulibans
> On their first mission away from Sol-3
> Gone to take a Klingon messenger back to his world
> On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee
>
> On the starship Enterprise
> On the starship Enterprise
> On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee
> Gone to take a Klingon messenger back to his world
> On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee
>

Whoops. Tune of "Waltzing Matilda" of course...

Wesley Struebing

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Sep 28, 2001, 8:53:27 PM9/28/01
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On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:15:40 -0500, "Mark Kinney" <albe...@iglou.com>
wrote:

>"Mark Kinney" <albe...@iglou.com> wrote in message
>news:3bb4ffd4$1...@news.iglou.com...
>> Once a Starfleet captain met some pesky Sulibans
>> On their first mission away from Sol-3

<snip>


>>
>
>Whoops. Tune of "Waltzing Matilda" of course...

I knew that, somehow...<g>

Nice, Mark...

--
Some work of noble note, may yet be done - Tennyson's "Ulysses"

Wes Struebing
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
str...@americanisp.com
ph: 303-343-9006
home page: http://silicon.americanisp.net/~struebing/

Karen Rodgers

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Sep 29, 2001, 2:30:04 PM9/29/01
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On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 04:11:43 GMT, "John Creasey"
<jcre...@socal.rr.com> wrote:

>
>Karen Rodgers <krodgers@rice_home.com> wrote in message
>news:3bb3eafa....@news.elcjn1.sdca.home.com...

>> My thought, throw out everyone, writers and all, except Bacula, and


>> the guy playing the doctor.
>
>That bad? I know Trek shows take a season or so to find themselves...

Well, maybe keep the spacer (called a "boomer") too, but...

Man, they need a good science fiction show to compete against. DS9
was the only good one since the original. Competition with B5 was one
of the big reasons it turned out so well. It's going to be a tough
choice (not) on Wednesday nights to see if I'll be watching NBC's "Ed"
or "Enterprise." "Ed" is a charming, entertaining, and well written
show about mundanes. "Enterprise," on the other hand, has a fish
lipped Vulcan, one dementional characters, and same ol' brain dead
writing staff that wrote all the crumby sci fi on all their other
shows (oh, give me more of that!). The only smart thing they've done
is to not put "Enterprise" up against "West Wing." (Of course, any
network would be smart not trying to put anything *good* up against
"West Wing" either.)

>> (Down, down, flush this one down...)
>
>I KNOW what you're filking...8-)
>

Snicker!

Karen Rodgers

**********
Windbourne, folk singers of the future
http://www.windbourne.com/

please remove "rice_" to contact me
**********

Lizard

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Sep 29, 2001, 5:23:25 PM9/29/01
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:30:04 GMT, krodgers@rice_home.com (Karen
Rodgers) wrote:

> "Enterprise," on the other hand, has a fish
>lipped Vulcan, one dementional characters


Well, let's be reasonable. Most people have no dementias;one per
character certainly creates an interesting crew!
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
"I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never
once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit
http://www.mrlizard.com

keith lim

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Sep 29, 2001, 7:38:44 PM9/29/01
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Joel Polowin <jpolow...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> "... Well, maybe we can come up with some 'medical reason' for them to
> grope each other. I mean, 'medical reasons' worked to justify
> 37D of 9's outfit..."

(tune: "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious")

Decontamination is a chore that's fun for all,
Eagerly looked forward to when back from planetfall.
We strip to our underwear inside the blue-lit cell,
Rub ourselves and then our shipmates up and down with gel.

--
keith lim keit...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~keithlim/
We did not steal any ducks from Apple.
--Art Pettigrue, product manager for Windows, Microsoft Corp.

j...@mich.com

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Sep 30, 2001, 8:38:34 AM9/30/01
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On 2001-09-28 albe...@iglou.com said:

>Once a Starfleet captain met some pesky Sulibans
>On their first mission away from Sol-3
>Gone to take a Klingon messenger back to his world
>On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee
>On the starship Enterprise
>On the starship Enterprise
>On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee
>Gone to take a Klingon messenger back to his world
>On the starship Enterprise roaming with glee

Did you notice, The Klingon was a "Modern" Next Generation/DS-9/Voyager type
Klingon, not the Klingons of Kirk's day.

It was explained (ON one of the shows above) that the change in appearance was
due to a serious disaster that occurred between Kirk and Picard's time.

So why are we using a "Picard Era" klingon back BEFORE Kirk? (Opps)


John F Davis, WA8YXM, In Delightful Detroit, aa...@detroit.freenet.org
"Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business"


Gravity is a myth, the Earth sucks.

Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered

Martin Julian DeMello

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Sep 30, 2001, 1:39:35 PM9/30/01
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Kevin Wald <wa...@ford.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Love is like a butterfly --
> It's tasty, now and then.

Bravo!

--
Martin DeMello

Rob Wynne

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Sep 30, 2001, 1:59:31 PM9/30/01
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j...@mich.com wrote:
>Did you notice, The Klingon was a "Modern" Next Generation/DS-9/Voyager type
>Klingon, not the Klingons of Kirk's day.
>
>It was explained (ON one of the shows above) that the change in appearance was
>due to a serious disaster that occurred between Kirk and Picard's time.
>
>So why are we using a "Picard Era" klingon back BEFORE Kirk? (Opps)

Roddenberry's official explaination was "They always looked like that.
We just didn't have the budjet in the 1960's to show them properly."

This is one case where I prefer the Doylist explaination.

Sandy Tyra

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Sep 30, 2001, 6:36:30 PM9/30/01
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>Did you notice, The Klingon was a "Modern" Next Generation/DS-9/Voyager
type
>Klingon, not the Klingons of Kirk's day.

They announced ahead of time that they were going to be using the bumpy
headed Klingons. But not only was the Kling the "newer* physical type
Klingon - his uniform was from the Picard/Sisco era.

>It was explained (ON one of the shows above) that the change in
appearance was
>due to a serious disaster that occurred between Kirk and Picard's time.

They "implied" something in the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribblations."
But Worf just said "We don't talk about it to outsiders." I would
assume that the new explanation is that they started out bumpy, went
through a "smooth phase" and changed back. (And they also went through
an unfortunate fasion era during the Kirk years. On the Klingon home
world this is known as the era of D'ork styles.)

In an episode of DS9, Dax meets up with three old Klingons from Kirk's
whom she knew when she was in a different host. All three had been in
the original series as "smoothies," but were now bumpy. Whatever the
change was it happened to already adult Klingons.

<<So why are we using a "Picard Era" klingon back BEFORE Kirk? (Opps)>>

One possibility is that the Kling was from the future (they were hinting
around about time traveling foes.) On the other hand, when they got him
home all the Klings were bumpy headed, soooooo - back to the
bumpy/smooth/bumpy explanation I gave above.

The "true" explanation is that Star Trek has never been known for it's
devotion to continuity.

Sandy

Sandy Tyra

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Sep 30, 2001, 6:39:12 PM9/30/01
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>This is one case where I prefer the Doylist explaination.

>Rob

Doylist?

Sandy

Lizard

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Sep 30, 2001, 6:40:33 PM9/30/01
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On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:38:34 -0000, j...@mich.com wrote:

>It was explained (ON one of the shows above) that the change in appearance was
>due to a serious disaster that occurred between Kirk and Picard's time.

Nope, never was. There has never been an 'official' explanation for
the difference.

The rule used to be "They always looked like that, we didn't have the
budget." Then, just to annoy the fanboys (Of the comic-book-guy
variety), in "Trials and Tribble-ations", they had Bashir and O'Brien,
back in time, not recognizing TOS Klingons as Klingons. When they
asked Worf, he gruffly said, "We do not discuss it with outsiders."

And that's all that's ever been said about it on the show.

Remember, "lumpy headed" klingons first appeared in Star Trek:The
Motionless Picture, and no one ever said a word or seemed to care. And
when we saw Kang and company on DS9, they were 'lumpy headed', despite
being 'smooth' when they appeared on TOS.

Rob Wynne

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Sep 30, 2001, 7:06:05 PM9/30/01
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Sandy Tyra <sa...@sa-tech.com> wrote:
>>This is one case where I prefer the Doylist explaination.
>Doylist?

Sorry. This is a bit of coinage from the Lois McMaster Bujold list.

There are two ways to attempt to explain apparent continuity conflicts.

The Doylist approach is to explain it in terms of why the author would
choose to change something for dramatic purposes that fit the current
story. In short, the author had a better idea.

The Watsonian approach is to attempt to reconcile the conflict in story
terms. This often requires conjecture and imagination, but always
attempts to craft a plausable and rational path from point A to point B.
Given that the text/tv show/movie is all we have for primary source, and
the desire of most fans for their plotlines to be at least internally
consisant, one typically prefers a Watsonian explaination.

In this case of the Klingons, however, I'm willing to accept the notion
that 1966 makeup just wans't up to the task, and letting it go. :)

Ace Lightning

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Sep 30, 2001, 7:36:06 PM9/30/01
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Sandy Tyra wrote:
>The "true" explanation is that Star Trek has never been known for it's
>devotion to continuity.

"Warning! Star Trek continuity error detected.
(A)bort, (R)ewrite, (I)gnore?"

keith lim

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Sep 30, 2001, 8:25:26 PM9/30/01
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<j...@mich.com> wrote:

> Did you notice, The Klingon was a "Modern" Next Generation/DS-9/Voyager type
> Klingon, not the Klingons of Kirk's day.
> It was explained (ON one of the shows above) that the change in appearance was
> due to a serious disaster that occurred between Kirk and Picard's time.

Which show was this, and what was the explanation (that you remember)?

The ST producers/writers have *never* explained the appearance of the
Klingons satisfactorily. Every new data point that they've thrown in
almost seems like it has been calculated to confuse and create more
inconsistencies as much as possible.

In TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles", a key plot point involved a Klingon
being visually indistinguishable from humans, thus allowing him to pose
as one. No one seemed to think anything of his appearance after his real
species was discovered, so apparently, it was a given that Klingons in
general could trivially pass for humans.

In DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations", there was brief mention made that
the character (the imposter from TOS: TTwT) had been specially altered
to look like a human. But the other Klingons in that episode didn't look
like the "bumpy-headed" Klingons either--DS9 crew members were
astonished to find out that a group of human-looking people were
Klingons. So if Klingons looked like humans already, why did the
imposter need his appearance to be altered?

When they questioned Worf, he confirmed that they were Klingons, but did
not explain and simply said that it was a matter not discussed with
non-Klingons. So Klingons did once look like humans, but after that era,
that fact was not widely known, even among Federation officers.
(Admittedly, in that episode, their research skills were shown to be
rather poor.)

Bumpy-headed Klingons first appeared in _ST: The Motion Picture_, and no
one commented on their appearance or seemed to think it unusual. In DS9:
"Blood Oath", three Klingon characters, Kor, Kang, and Koleth, who had
appeared in TOS showed up again (all played by their original actors).
Human-looking in TOS (one was in "The Trouble with Tribbles"), but
bumpy-headed in DS9, and again, no one said a word about this.

Now with _Enterprise_, bumpy-headed Klingons are apparently the norm in
the era before TOS. So what are we to make of all of this 'evidence'?
The easiest explanation is to just give up and say that the producers
and writers of the Trek universe just don't care about consistency, and
that you *can't* make any single coherent explanation in the Trek
timeline.

Why *not* beat a dead horse? It's not like the horse cares.

Mark A. Mandel

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Sep 30, 2001, 9:45:12 PM9/30/01
to
Rob Wynne <d...@america.net> wrote:

: Sandy Tyra <sa...@sa-tech.com> wrote:
:>>This is one case where I prefer the Doylist explaination.
:>Doylist?

: Sorry. This is a bit of coinage from the Lois McMaster Bujold list.

Minor correction: Rob evidently learned the expressions on the lois-bujold
list -- I'm on it too -- but they are much older, and presumably
originated in Sherlockian fandom, with their literal meanings.

: There are two ways to attempt to explain apparent continuity conflicts.

: The Doylist approach is to explain it in terms of why the author would
: choose to change something for dramatic purposes that fit the current
: story. In short, the author had a better idea.

Or, as I understand the distinction, the author goofed, or the author's
editor changed it, or any other explanation based in our real world, in
which the story is the author's fictional creation.

: The Watsonian approach is to attempt to reconcile the conflict in story


: terms. This often requires conjecture and imagination, but always
: attempts to craft a plausable and rational path from point A to point B.
: Given that the text/tv show/movie is all we have for primary source, and
: the desire of most fans for their plotlines to be at least internally
: consisant, one typically prefers a Watsonian explaination.

In the Sherlockian framework, where Watson the chronicler is also a
character, Watsonian explanations also include Watson's own actions: he
forgot, he miswrote somebody's name, he didn't know fact X at the time he
wrote this, and so on. Since ST generally has no chronicler character but
is told from an omniscient POV -- that is, the camera reports whatever is
"really" happening wherever it's pointed -- that type of Watsonian patch
isn't available.

-- Mark M.

--
To reply by email, remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.

Lizard

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Sep 30, 2001, 9:48:47 PM9/30/01
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On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:25:26 -0700, keit...@pobox.com (keith lim)
wrote:

>When they questioned Worf, he confirmed that they were Klingons, but did
>not explain and simply said that it was a matter not discussed with
>non-Klingons. So Klingons did once look like humans, but after that era,
>that fact was not widely known, even among Federation officers.
>(Admittedly, in that episode, their research skills were shown to be
>rather poor.)

Well, let's be fair. How much do YOU know about, say, naval uniform
styles from 100 years ago? How much would a typical Naval officer of
today be expected to know, as a matter of day-to-day duty?

On the other hand, they did have a starship with a computer which
would contain such information as a matter of course...

keith lim

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Oct 1, 2001, 12:18:24 AM10/1/01
to
Lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote:

> keit...@pobox.com (keith lim) wrote:
>
> >(Admittedly, in that episode, their research skills were shown to be
> >rather poor.)
>
> Well, let's be fair. How much do YOU know about, say, naval uniform
> styles from 100 years ago? How much would a typical Naval officer of
> today be expected to know, as a matter of day-to-day duty?

But they weren't playing Jeopardy in one of the holosuites; they were
going on a mission to that specific time in the past and were supposed
to blend in.

So the answer to how much they should be expected to know is: *a lot*.
Not just uniform colours, but how to operate the equipment of that era,
and so on. How deficient is their research when it doesn't even turn up
information on the appearance of Klingons, when the very reason for the
mission was an altered Klingon?

> On the other hand, they did have a starship with a computer which
> would contain such information as a matter of course...

Then again, maybe there was a conspiracy by the Federation to erase this
information from their official records. In which case, it would of
course not appear at all in Federation computers, and the DS9 crew could
never have found out (hence their subsequent surprise). That would also
explain everyone's studied lack on comment on Klingon appearance in
ST:TMP. (Official command from on high: "Do not speak of this.")

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

Harold Groot

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Sep 30, 2001, 4:58:10 PM9/30/01
to
On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:38:34 -0000, j...@mich.com wrote:

>Did you notice, The Klingon was a "Modern" Next Generation/DS-9/Voyager
>type Klingon, not the Klingons of Kirk's day. It was explained
>(ON one of the shows above) that the change in appearance was
>due to a serious disaster that occurred between Kirk and Picard's time.
>So why are we using a "Picard Era" klingon back BEFORE Kirk? (Opps)

Ummmm.... I don't recall any such explanation in the shows themselves.
Are you sure this wasn't from one of the books?

On the DS9 crossover to TOS "The Trouble With Tribbles", Worf says
that the human-looking ones =are= Klingons, but that (real) Klingons
don't talk about it. This appears to be referring to a story idea
that at one time there were large numbers of Klingons trying to
imitate humans via surgury. I don't know if this story idea ever
appeared in any of the books either, it certainly never appeared on
the shows. A lot of the stuff in the books was definitely NOT
official. And some of these stories didn't even come from the books
but from fanzines and such. No more reason to believe it than to
believe in the Slash fanfiction.

Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)

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Oct 1, 2001, 11:09:22 AM10/1/01
to
As a masquerade costume's patter put it, many years ago: "It
slices, it dices, but only the New Improved Klingon grates
cheese!"

Personally I think "We do not speak of this" really is the
best possible response. Everyone will pick their own most
satisfying answer. Might have been nothing more than
fashions in cosmetic surgery among Naval personnel; if you
need a deeper reason, consider the Kdaptist principle as a
possible influence.

Dr Pepper

unread,
Sep 30, 2001, 6:34:00 AM9/30/01
to

Harold Groot spoke in the bardic circle concerning "OK, Enterprise..." on Fri
28 Sep 2001 3:20.

HG> The Vulcans are NOT transporteers....

T'pol is no transporteer, no way, no way
T'pol is no transporteer, no way
At engineering math she shines
But can't seem to read between the lines
Too bad, too bad
Alas for the transpoteers!

| 10 2 vjunc
| DR PEPPER @
| 4 ev1.net


Maureen O'Brien

unread,
Oct 1, 2001, 6:28:58 PM10/1/01
to
Karen said:
>is to not put "Enterprise" up against "West Wing." (Of course, any
>network would be smart not trying to put anything *good* up against
>"West Wing" either.)

Alas, but Special Unit 2 (that most excellent Bureau 13 of cop action
shows) is being put up against The West Wing. Thank yoooou, UPN.

Is there no place in an Aaron Sorkin world for a Chicago full of
missing links and weirdness? For Nick O'Malley, a cop who loves big
guns and hates Links, partnered with Kate Benson, who's actually sane?
For Carl the gnome informant and the Desk Monster, and a precinct
hidden in the basement of a drycleaning place? For corporate lawyer
werewolves and Lake Michigan mermen? Of course there is!

So I beg of you. Please. Do yourself a favor and either tape or watch
Special Unit 2. It is one of the most fannish shows ever to hit the
tube. It will delight your inner gamer (and Man from Uncle fan) and
make your breath fresh and minty.

Maureen, who dearly loves Special Unit 2.

Maureen O'Brien

unread,
Oct 1, 2001, 6:33:42 PM10/1/01
to
I still go with the FASA/Ford fusion explanation. The bumpiness
was the cosmetic surgery, for Kang, Koloth and Kor.

And I _liked_ the TOS Klingon klothing. It was kewl! Anybody can
wear leather and metal.

Maureen

j...@mich.com

unread,
Oct 2, 2001, 7:18:04 AM10/2/01
to

On 2001-09-30 keit...@pobox.com(keithlim) said:

>Which show was this, and what was the explanation (that you
>remember)?

I think it was a DS-9 episode (Could have been Next Gen but I think it was
DS-9 because I remember Sisco in one scene, but that could be faulty memory)

Reading down the page, I see you have given the answer I was going to give

>In DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations", there was brief mention made

Yup that was the episode.


There were many episodes featuring Klingons back in Kirks time, They all
looked like the ones in "Trials and Tribble-actions" None looked like Worf

>When they questioned Worf, he confirmed that they were Klingons,
>but did not explain and simply said that it was a matter not
>discussed with non-Klingons. So Klingons did once look like humans,
>but after that era, that fact was not widely known, even among
>Federation officers. (Admittedly, in that episode, their research
>skills were shown to be rather poor.)

Far as I know that is the only "Cannon" Explanation given

One of the books had a Klingon power station blowing up and darn near wiping
out the entire Klingon empire. I suspect this would be the responsible event,
except for the fact that Rodenberry & Company said the books are not cannon
and refused to accept their "Facts" as part of the show.

Of course the real reason is a different make up artist. But then you know
that.


>The easiest explanation is to just give up and say that
>the producers and writers of the Trek universe just don't care
>about consistency, and that you *can't* make any single coherent
>explanation in the Trek timeline.

In short, "Opps, Oh well, Nobody will notice" This, I also agree with.

(Except, of course, we noticed)


John F Davis, WA8YXM, In Delightful Detroit, aa...@detroit.freenet.org
"Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business"

Dr Pepper

unread,
Oct 1, 2001, 12:16:00 PM10/1/01
to

Gary McGath spoke in the bardic circle concerning "OK, Enterprise..." on Sun
30 Sep 2001 7:50.

>> Did you notice, The Klingon was a "Modern" Next Generation/DS-9/Voyager
type
>> Klingon, not the Klingons of Kirk's day.
>>
>> It was explained (ON one of the shows above) that the change in appearance
>> was
>> due to a serious disaster that occurred between Kirk and Picard's time.
>>
>> So why are we using a "Picard Era" klingon back BEFORE Kirk? (Opps)


The physical difference is less significant than the cultural difference. The
old klingons were a highly organized totalitarian empire whose members were
dedicated to agressive expansion. The new klingons are a disfunctional tribal
association who look for every opportunity to feud. The old klingons would
have eaten the new ones alive.

I just figure that the multiple time travel episodes have warped things to
the point that the old series no longer represents any real event in that
universe. Sure, Kirk and crew existed, but they used different equipment, met
different klingons, and had different historical knowledge. *We* live in the
universe where the temporal authorities were unable to collect all the tapes
:)

Gerry Tyra

unread,
Oct 2, 2001, 12:33:55 PM10/2/01
to

j...@mich.com wrote:

<snip>

> One of the books had a Klingon power station blowing up and darn near wiping
> out the entire Klingon empire. I suspect this would be the responsible event,
> except for the fact that Rodenberry & Company said the books are not cannon
> and refused to accept their "Facts" as part of the show.

Don't wash. The opening of Star Trek 6 was the power plant blowing.
They had already been bumpy for five movies and Worf was running around
on TNG.

Besides could one power plant have done that would have so subtly and
consistently mess up the genetics of an entire interstellar race?

No, Watson, you just have to accept that Star Trek has never been good a
consistency or science.

Gerry

Aaron Davies

unread,
Oct 3, 2001, 3:05:02 AM10/3/01
to
Gary McGath <gmc...@REMOVETHISmcgath.com> wrote:

> In article <bb1_010...@salata.com>,


> 10-41!Dr.P...@salata.com (Dr Pepper) wrote:
>
>
> > I just figure that the multiple time travel episodes have warped things
> > to the point that the old series no longer represents any real event in
> > that universe. Sure, Kirk and crew existed, but they used different
> > equipment, met different klingons, and had different historical
> > knowledge. *We* live in the universe where the temporal authorities were
> > unable to collect all the tapes :)
>

> That would also explain why the Eugenic Wars happened in the 1990's in
> Kirk's universe, but not in ours. Yes, I know that there's a Trek novel
> which purports to explain how they really did happen without our
> noticing; I'm curious, but not curious enough to pay a hardcover price.

You know, there's room in canon for Trek being in one universe and us in
another. In the early Voyager ep where they travel back to the present
(you know what I mean) and meet the 29th century time-travelling captain
for the first time, the obligatory Local who Must Be Told says something
like "Oh, so you're kind of like Star Trek?"

Unfortunately, this was never really followed up on, which is too bad,
'cause it could have been used for some really interesting plots.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ______ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_

Martin Julian DeMello

unread,
Oct 3, 2001, 5:06:51 AM10/3/01
to
Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com> wrote:
> You know, there's room in canon for Trek being in one universe and us in
> another. In the early Voyager ep where they travel back to the present
> (you know what I mean) and meet the 29th century time-travelling captain
> for the first time, the obligatory Local who Must Be Told says something
> like "Oh, so you're kind of like Star Trek?"

Wow. That both surprises and delights me - as you say, it's a real shame
they went no deeper down this particular path.

--
Martin DeMello

j...@mich.com

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Oct 3, 2001, 8:02:34 AM10/3/01
to

On 2001-09-30 que...@sjm.infi.net(HaroldGroot) said:

>Ummmm.... I don't recall any such explanation in the shows
>themselves. Are you sure this wasn't from one of the books?

The story of the disaster was indeed in one of the books. (Forget the title,
I've read so many)

As I understand it the real reason was budget, Gene said they did not have the
budget to do them the way he wanted so they comprised.

Personally I like the Kirk era Klingons better.

Joe Ellis

unread,
Oct 3, 2001, 10:52:21 AM10/3/01
to
In article <3BB9EC18...@sa-tech.com>, Gerry Tyra <ge...@sa-tech.com>
wrote:

Ummm... It's the "Klingon _Empire_", right? As in more than one planet?

Look how many different races there are in the Federation. Why can't there
be more than one in the Empire?

...particularly if one looks close enough to Human to be useful in infiltration.

Of course, you wouldn't want to actually turn a warship over to them - so
you surgically modify the racially Klingon officers you put in charge.
And, of course, such superficial modification doesn't change their actual
insides - metabolism, internal organs, etc.

And, considering their marked lack of success against the Federation of
Kirk's time, it's no wonder the "subject race" has been "replaced" by
"racial" Klingons in all military positions, and the officers over them
returned to their original appearance.

If you don't let yourself get trapped into thinking of the Klingons as a
homogeneous group, it's rather easy to make the connection. <<grin>>

After all, until a few years ago, how many people even considered the
difference between Georgians, Ukrainians, and Russians? They were all just
"rooskies" to a lot of folks. How many of you still do a double-take if
you are watching a news report from Europe and you see an ethnic African
speaking French or German, or the king of Jordan giving an interview in
accent-free American English?

--
Joe Ellis

Gerry Tyra

unread,
Oct 3, 2001, 1:16:32 PM10/3/01
to
Joe,

Joe Ellis wrote:

> Ummm... It's the "Klingon _Empire_", right? As in more than one planet?
>
> Look how many different races there are in the Federation. Why can't there
> be more than one in the Empire?
>
> ...particularly if one looks close enough to Human to be useful in infiltration.

I grant you there there could be several different ethnic/racial groups
or even several different species. But in context, it don't wash.

> Of course, you wouldn't want to actually turn a warship over to them - so
> you surgically modify the racially Klingon officers you put in charge.
> And, of course, such superficial modification doesn't change their actual
> insides - metabolism, internal organs, etc.
>
> And, considering their marked lack of success against the Federation of
> Kirk's time, it's no wonder the "subject race" has been "replaced" by
> "racial" Klingons in all military positions, and the officers over them
> returned to their original appearance.

If you have a diverse group, you -know- that it is a diverse group.
-Especially- if you have had significant contact with the various parts
of that society.

You could have a dirty family secret that popped out of the closet for a
while. But if it came out, everyone would still know about it. Dax
knew (real well) Klingons before, during and after.

Consider the time line. You meet your first Klingon. He has a bumpy
head. You take him back to his home world. They all have bumpy heads.
Kewl. Later, you meet other Klingons and they don't have bumpy heads,
okay (live and learn). Then for a while, all the Klingons you meet are
smooth. Weird. Suddenly all the Klingons you meet are bumpy. Very
weird. 70 years later, no one remembers that there ever were smooth
Klingons. STUPID. We meet Klingons that we knew as smooth, but show up
later bumpy. That ain't a racial difference. And Klingon children are
bumpy, so age isn't an issue.

The only explanation that fits is a deliberate reversible medical
procedure. But on every Klingon that is going into space? And
infiltration isn't "Honorable". So, while you could convince the
occasional Klingon to the procedure, I doubt that it would be popular
with the troops.

I just don't see an explanation that is consistent with the stories.

Hey, they had Earth less than 4 days from the Klingon Empire. We should
have been conquered before we had warp drive.

Consistency, of racial groups, time or space, has never been a strong
suit of Star Trek.

Trying to justify and make consistent that which the creator did at
random is a fools errand.

Gerry

Steve Brinich

unread,
Oct 3, 2001, 6:05:51 PM10/3/01
to
Aaron Davies wrote:

> You know, there's room in canon for Trek being in one universe and us in
> another. In the early Voyager ep where they travel back to the present
> (you know what I mean) and meet the 29th century time-travelling captain
> for the first time, the obligatory Local who Must Be Told says something
> like "Oh, so you're kind of like Star Trek?"

Well, it would explain why Kirk & Co. weren't mobbed by autograph seekers
in STIV....

--
Steve Brinich <sbri...@bigfoot.com> If the government wants us
http://www.bigfoot.com/~sbrinich to respect the law
41BFB2CAA6083A641079871798366DC7 it should set a better example
Contata Three: http://www.rishathra.com/contata

Chris Malme

unread,
Oct 3, 2001, 9:01:43 PM10/3/01
to
ge...@sa-tech.com (Gerry Tyra) wrote in
<3BBB4795...@sa-tech.com>:

>The only explanation that fits is a deliberate reversible medical
>procedure. But on every Klingon that is going into space? And
>infiltration isn't "Honorable". So, while you could convince the
>occasional Klingon to the procedure, I doubt that it would be popular
>with the troops.

Trying to rationalise (for fun) the deliberate reversible medical
procedure.

Wasn't it Niven who wrote about an alien race (was it the Kzinti,
perhaps?), who had a cult whose members made facemasks of human flesh,
because they thought the human god(s) was giving humans the edge in the
war? (I probably have the details screwed - it was a long time ago that I
read it)

This could be the answer for the Klingons. Seeing the human-centric
Federation thrive, while the Klingon Empire was in decline, caused a
trend of humanification, to fool the gods/fates/whatever.

Thus, when we first met the Klingons (in Enterprise) they are bumpy
headed. In the era of TOS, the humanification cult is at it's height,
only to fall out of fashion in a backlash by the time of the TOS films.
In the era of NextGen/DS9/Worf, these past activities are seen as
extremely shameful, so "it is not something we talk about".

--
Chris
Minstrel's Hall of Filk - http://www.filklore.com
Filklore Music Store - http://www.filklore.co.uk

Gerry Tyra

unread,
Oct 3, 2001, 9:19:44 PM10/3/01
to
Chris,

Chris Malme wrote:
>
> ge...@sa-tech.com (Gerry Tyra) wrote in
> <3BBB4795...@sa-tech.com>:
>
> >The only explanation that fits is a deliberate reversible medical
> >procedure. But on every Klingon that is going into space? And
> >infiltration isn't "Honorable". So, while you could convince the
> >occasional Klingon to the procedure, I doubt that it would be popular
> >with the troops.
>
> Trying to rationalise (for fun) the deliberate reversible medical
> procedure.
>
> Wasn't it Niven who wrote about an alien race (was it the Kzinti,
> perhaps?), who had a cult whose members made facemasks of human flesh,
> because they thought the human god(s) was giving humans the edge in the
> war? (I probably have the details screwed - it was a long time ago that I
> read it)
>
> This could be the answer for the Klingons. Seeing the human-centric
> Federation thrive, while the Klingon Empire was in decline, caused a
> trend of humanification, to fool the gods/fates/whatever.

A cult, yes, but the entire race?

And then to have that it happened forgotten?

Gerry

Harold Groot

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Oct 3, 2001, 9:24:01 PM10/3/01
to
On Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:16:32 GMT, Gerry Tyra <ge...@sa-tech.com>
wrote:

>Hey, they had Earth less than 4 days from the Klingon Empire. We should
>have been conquered before we had warp drive.

Although called an Empire, that may not have been a good description.
I can't recall the exact source, it might have been a panel with
Roddenberry on it or something similar (i.e. something I can't look
up), but as I recall the Klingons in the TOS timeframe were described
as not having a strong central government. Instead they were "like a
loose alliance of Pirate Captains" with the ships being very
independent. The implications seemed to be that it consisted of many
rival tribes - but that every now and then a strong leader could unite
them into a serious force, like Ghengis Khan uniting the Mongol
tribes. So if they had been bickering among themselves, Earth might
have escaped their notice.


Joseph Kesselman

unread,
Oct 4, 2001, 12:18:39 AM10/4/01
to
Chris Malme wrote:
> Wasn't it Niven who wrote about an alien race (was it the Kzinti,

It was (Ringworld), they were, the Kdaptist heresy. "You kept
_winning_!"

Might not have been in imitation of humans, though. Vulcans are also
smooth-foreheaded, after all... but if you do the ears, you go through
life having to put up with elf jokes.

(What do you call an elf nailed to the wall? "Art.")

j...@mich.com

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Oct 4, 2001, 8:37:47 AM10/4/01
to

On 2001-10-02 ge...@sa-tech.com said:

>> except for the fact that Rodenberry & Company said the books are
>>not cannon and refused to accept their "Facts" as part of the show.

>Don't wash. The opening of Star Trek 6 was the power plant blowing.

The bottom line is "They were inconsistent". Far as I'm concerned it's a
blunder on their part.

Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)

unread,
Oct 4, 2001, 10:25:51 AM10/4/01
to
Gerry Tyra wrote:
> A cult, yes, but the entire race?

We never saw the entire race. We saw the navy, and maybe a
few merchant marine or traders. Tattoos were popular amongst
our own navy at a time when they were considered extremely
weird by the rest of our population...

(Quick, SOMEONE write a song...)

j...@mich.com

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Oct 4, 2001, 11:10:47 AM10/4/01
to

On 2001-10-03 fil...@mindspring.com(JoeEllis) said:


>Look how many different races there are in the Federation. Why
>can't there be more than one in the Empire?

>....particularly if one looks close enough to Human to be useful in
>infiltration.

Possible, But I don't like it. There were other differences That we have not
elaborated on, Far too many to explain away.

Mark A. Mandel

unread,
Oct 5, 2001, 6:00:15 PM10/5/01
to
Chris Malme <mins...@filklore.com> wrote:
: ge...@sa-tech.com (Gerry Tyra) wrote in
: <3BBB4795...@sa-tech.com>:

:>The only explanation that fits is a deliberate reversible medical
:>procedure. But on every Klingon that is going into space? And
:>infiltration isn't "Honorable". So, while you could convince the
:>occasional Klingon to the procedure, I doubt that it would be popular
:>with the troops.

I mentioned this thread to my son, and he told me of a Watsonian
explanation that's showed up in fanfic in, I think he said
rec.arts.startrek.creative. The smooth Klingons were a subspecies
deliberately created expressly for espionage, to be able to pass as human.
Later on (in between the Generations), there was a revulsion against this
concept as dishonorable and the subspecies was exterminated, an action
which itself was then seen as dishonorable. These combined to make
sufficient reason for the topic's being entirely taboo, especially to
discuss with non-Klingons.

lizard

unread,
Oct 5, 2001, 7:06:27 PM10/5/01
to
Unfortunately, we've seen TOS-era Klingons on DS9, as old drinking
buddies of Dax. They were lumpy-headed.

Filksinger

unread,
Oct 5, 2001, 7:57:26 PM10/5/01
to

<j...@mich.com> wrote in message news:tre4iad...@corp.supernews.com...
>
<snip>

> So why are we using a "Picard Era" klingon back BEFORE Kirk? (Opps)

OK, here we go. I've looked over this thread, and when it comes to
explanations, you guys are pikers.:)

Klingons, as shown during ST:C, were a tightly knit empire with constant
secret police surveillance, who behaved in an embarrasingly dishonorable
manner, and were much like humans. Klingons before and after were a
tradition bound empire, with petty bickering and lords trying to take over,
who behaved according to a strict code of honor, and who looked very
different from Klingons.

So, here's what seems obvious or very likely, and speculation to follow.

The Klingons had a powerful group rise to dominance in the Empire. I will
call them the "Klinazis".:) (Godwin, spare me!) This group was totalitarian,
Big-Brother-like, and distained "honor" in favor of "service to the Empire".
They had control of the Empire, probably, and a very large fleet that was
the primary contact point between the Federation and the Empire. Eventually,
Klingons with more honor overthrew the totalitarian Klingons and restored
the traditional Empire.

Additionally, some percentage of Klingons had their appearance altered.
Either it was a large percentage (we never saw more than about 10 Klingons
in the original series, so it is possible that some Klingons in the Klingon
navy didn't look like this, but most did), or it was particularly common
among Klingon Navy officers. This appearance change is tightly related to
something highly "dishonorable", to the point that it was quietly supressed.

Possibilities:

1. The Klingon's appearance change may have only lasted for three years or
so. Since it is an utterly insignificant fact, it might have been mostly
forgotten. Possibly Klingons reading about it in Federation libraries and
going berserk caused it to be buried even in Federation archives. If you
really want to know, you can look it up, but who cares about a change in
appearance that happened for three years eight decades ago to a
non-Federation race?

2. The appearance change was very popular among the Klinazis. As a result,
any Klingon who wanted to be in the armed forces and actually go to war
would tend to alter his appearance appropriately. When the honorable
Klingons overthrew the Klinazis (including Dax's friends), the Klingons who
wanted to disassociate themselves from the Klinazis then reverted their
appearance.
Sub-idea A. It was popular due to a K'daptist-style belief system.
Sub-idea B. The Klinazis were an oppressed sub-race of Klingons who
took over temporarily. Klingons whose appearance changed were either
bumpy-heads who wanted (needed) to look like the new dominant leaders, or
smooth-heads who wanted to "pass" when the bumpys took over.

3. A retro-virus plague was released upon the Klingons by some other race,
altering their appearance until a cure was developed. This was triggered by
a dishonorable Klinazi act, thus Klingons "don't talk about it". For
example, a race of pacifists refuses to fight the Klinazis, so the Klinazis
perform genocide upon them because they won't be slaves. In retalliation,
they release the virus, which produces only cosmetic changes, making the
killers look like the victims (who were apparently pacifistic Mongols:).
When it was discovered by the more honorable Klingons what the actual source
of the plague was, and how the Klinazi leaders gave the order to attack
non-combatants, they overthrew the Klinazis. When the cure came, they
reverted either automatically or by surgery, and surpressed it in shame.

I can come up with more, if you like.:) I've been told that I'm a top
contender for "explainer of other people's mistakes in continuity". I even
explained time-travel in Star Trek.:)

Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.


Filksinger

unread,
Oct 5, 2001, 6:34:30 PM10/5/01
to

"Harold Groot" <que...@sjm.infi.net> wrote in message
news:3bb44e4b...@news.sjm.infi.net...
> On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:43:43 GMT, ras...@cinci.really.sucks.rr.com
> (SantaRon) wrote:
>
> >TTTO "When Johnny Comes Marching Home"
> >When the Vulcans came to us,
> >Hurrah, hurrah,
> >When the Vulcans came to us,
> >Hurrah, hurrah,
> >Their technology they did keep;
> >They forced us to take a quantum leap.
> >But they almost had feelings when Enterprise flew away.

>
> The Vulcans are NOT transporteers....
> Actually, after watching the thing I was thinking that the title of
> the episode should be "Vulcans With Attitudes".

The thing that got me was how the Vulcans made it quite clear that it was
utterly necessary to accept that others were different from you, and had
different lives, values, and societies. They imposed this upon the humans
with every chance they got, and they were willing to allow the Klingon to
die because his people would accept that better than bringing him to them on
life support.

So the Vulcans insisted on accepting every society on its own terms _except
that of Earth_. They, instead of being accepted, were criticized at every
turn.

Filksinger


keith lim

unread,
Oct 6, 2001, 12:05:43 AM10/6/01
to
lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote:

> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote:
> >
> > The smooth Klingons were a subspecies
> > deliberately created expressly for espionage, to be able to pass as human.
> > Later on (in between the Generations), there was a revulsion against this
> > concept as dishonorable and the subspecies was exterminated, an action
> > which itself was then seen as dishonorable. These combined to make
> > sufficient reason for the topic's being entirely taboo, especially to
> > discuss with non-Klingons.
> >
> Unfortunately, we've seen TOS-era Klingons on DS9, as old drinking
> buddies of Dax. They were lumpy-headed.

And it also doesn't explain why *Federation* histories and information
databases would not include this part of Klingon history.

(ST:DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations"--officers going on a time-travel
mission specifically to that time in history didn't know about
smooth-headed Klingons, even though the reason for the mission itself
was to find a bomb planted by a Klingon altered to look human.)

--
keith lim keit...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~keithlim/
To err is human; to moo moo, bovine.

Rob Wynne

unread,
Oct 6, 2001, 12:40:27 AM10/6/01
to
keith lim <keit...@pobox.com> wrote:
>(ST:DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations"--officers going on a time-travel
>mission specifically to that time in history didn't know about
>smooth-headed Klingons, even though the reason for the mission itself
>was to find a bomb planted by a Klingon altered to look human.)

Of course, in the Trials and Tribbe-ations" episode, their tongue was
planted so firmly in its cheek that had they accidently bitten down,
they'd have had to call for Dr. Bashir, stat.

I think this is an excellent place to invoke Bellasaro's Rule: "Don't
take this all too seriously."

Rob

--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
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Steve Brinich

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Oct 6, 2001, 1:25:37 AM10/6/01
to
Filksinger wrote:

> The thing that got me was how the Vulcans made it quite clear that it was
> utterly necessary to accept that others were different from you, and had
> different lives, values, and societies. They imposed this upon the humans
> with every chance they got, and they were willing to allow the Klingon to
> die because his people would accept that better than bringing him to them on
> life support.
>
> So the Vulcans insisted on accepting every society on its own terms _except
> that of Earth_. They, instead of being accepted, were criticized at every
> turn.

I know that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate
people like that!
-- Tom Lehrer

j...@mich.com

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Oct 6, 2001, 12:58:24 PM10/6/01
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On 2001-10-05 VRULWI...@spammotel.com said:

>you like.:) I've been told that I'm a top contender for "explainer
>of other people's mistakes in continuity". I even explained
>time-travel in Star Trek.:)

I'd like to see your explanation of time travel in ST.

But I don't buy the explanation of the klingon appearance change

I think the reason is "Bigger Budget and new make up artist"

I also liked the Kirk Era klingons better.

Mark A. Mandel

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Oct 6, 2001, 3:25:13 PM10/6/01
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lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote:
: "Mark A. Mandel" wrote:
:>
:> I mentioned this thread to my son, and he told me of a Watsonian

:> explanation that's showed up in fanfic in, I think he said
:> rec.arts.startrek.creative. The smooth Klingons were a subspecies
:> deliberately created expressly for espionage, to be able to pass as human.
:> Later on (in between the Generations), there was a revulsion against this
:> concept as dishonorable and the subspecies was exterminated, an action
:> which itself was then seen as dishonorable. These combined to make
:> sufficient reason for the topic's being entirely taboo, especially to
:> discuss with non-Klingons.
:>
: Unfortunately, we've seen TOS-era Klingons on DS9, as old drinking
: buddies of Dax. They were lumpy-headed.

Obviously they were not of the spy subspecies. No problem.

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html

Harold Groot

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Oct 6, 2001, 5:59:43 PM10/6/01
to
On Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:25:13 GMT, "Mark A. Mandel"
<m...@world.std.Take.This.Out.com> wrote:

>: Unfortunately, we've seen TOS-era Klingons on DS9, as old drinking
>: buddies of Dax. They were lumpy-headed.

>Obviously they were not of the spy subspecies. No problem.

You seem to have missed the point. The very same individuals (Kang,
Kor, Kolath) that had been in TOS as smooth-forehead Klingons showed
up in DS9 as lumpy-head Klingons.

So were the really smooth-forehead types who had had surgury to make
them look like lumpy-heads in DS9, or had they been
lumpy-heads-surgically-altered-to-be-smooth in TOS who then regained
their natural appearance in DS9?


Lizard

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Oct 6, 2001, 6:39:08 PM10/6/01
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On Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:25:13 GMT, "Mark A. Mandel"
<m...@world.std.Take.This.Out.com> wrote:

>lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote:
>: "Mark A. Mandel" wrote:
>:>
>:> I mentioned this thread to my son, and he told me of a Watsonian
>:> explanation that's showed up in fanfic in, I think he said
>:> rec.arts.startrek.creative. The smooth Klingons were a subspecies
>:> deliberately created expressly for espionage, to be able to pass as human.
>:> Later on (in between the Generations), there was a revulsion against this
>:> concept as dishonorable and the subspecies was exterminated, an action
>:> which itself was then seen as dishonorable. These combined to make
>:> sufficient reason for the topic's being entirely taboo, especially to
>:> discuss with non-Klingons.
>:>
>: Unfortunately, we've seen TOS-era Klingons on DS9, as old drinking
>: buddies of Dax. They were lumpy-headed.
>
>Obviously they were not of the spy subspecies. No problem.
>

But these were the same Klingons (the same characters, played by the
same actors) that we met in Tos. Kohloss and others.
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
"I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never
once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit
http://www.mrlizard.com

John C. Bunnell

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Oct 6, 2001, 9:34:31 PM10/6/01
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> The very same individuals (Kang, Kor, Koloth) that had been

> in TOS as smooth-forehead Klingons showed up in DS9 as
> lumpy-head Klingons.
>
> So were they really smooth-forehead types who had had
> surgery to make them look like lumpy-heads in DS9, or had

> they been lumpy-heads-surgically-altered-to-be-smooth in
> TOS who then regained their natural appearance in DS9?

The latter explanation seems entirely possible. We've seen that the
Federation and the Klingons have rough technological parity, and that
tech is well within Federation capacity. Captain Kirk is surgically
disguised as a Romulan in "The Enterprise Incident", and by the time of
TNG, cosmetic surgery to allow humans to pass as various flavors of
alien is almost routine (see Riker in "First Contact", as one of a
number of examples).

Hmmm. There's *got* to be a lyric in here somewhere....

--
= John C. Bunnell
= JCBu...@sff.net
= http://www.sff.net/people/jcbunnell/

"Hand is quicker than the eye -- but should
have been watching the foot!"
-- "Uncle"


Steve Whee