Re: Ancient Musical Instruments Play Again Through Astra Project
Whiskers
> I don't know of any ancient music newsgroups, if any one else does
> feel free to repost this.
I haven't posted there before, but I've added rec.music.early to the
crosspost, and set that as the Followup-To group, as this subject seems
most appropriate there.
> Ancient Musical Instruments Play Again Through Astra Project
>
> Ancient musical instruments can now be heard for the first time in
> hundreds of years, due to a new computer modelling project. ASTRA
> (Ancient instruments Sound/Timbre Reconstruction Application) has
> recreated the sounds of the harp-like Epigonion musical instrument
> from Ancient Greece and has performed one of the oldest known musical
> scores dating back to the Middle Ages. To achieve this it used the
> advanced GÉANT2 and EUMEDCONNECT research networks to link high
> capacity computers together, sharing information to enable the
> computer-intensive modelling of musical sounds.
[...]
> http://www.biosmagazine.co.uk/article.php?id=6421
Thanks for that; most interesting (particularly as I am a bad player of a
modern 'knee harp'!).
The Astra project offer a selection of audio downloads and other
information here <http://www.astraproject.org/download.html>.
There are images of ancient epigonions here
<http://homoecumenicus.com/ancient_instruments.htm> and this person has
built what looks like a modern zither or psaltery and calls it an
epigonion <http://terpandros.com/terpandros>.
The tuning of the ancient instruments is probably unknowable, but it is
unlikely to have been the modern 'equal temperament' of the samples
offered. Those seeking further information about that subject might lose
themselves here <http://www.midicode.com/tunings/index.shtml>.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
John Howell
>
>> Ancient Musical Instruments Play Again Through Astra Project
>>
>> Ancient musical instruments can now be heard for the first time in
>> hundreds of years, due to a new computer modelling project. ASTRA
>> (Ancient instruments Sound/Timbre Reconstruction Application) has
>> recreated the sounds of the harp-like Epigonion musical instrument
>> from Ancient Greece and has performed one of the oldest known musical
>> scores dating back to the Middle Ages. To achieve this it used the
>> advanced GÉANT2 and EUMEDCONNECT research networks to link high
>> capacity computers together, sharing information to enable the
>> computer-intensive modelling of musical sounds.
I hate to sound like a spoil-sport, but I don't
care whether the computer has the power of the
Cray used for the liquid metal scenes in the
Terminator movies; if there's no living example
of the instrument to model on, the modelers are
simply fooling themselves and drunk on technology
(Garbage In, Garbage Out!). As you point out
yourself, of course, in the matter of tuning,
even though we do know quite a lot about the
THEORY of Greek modes and tuning. And of course
"ancient" depends on your point of view. The
most "ancient" musical notation (and for the most
part too obscure to reconstruct) goes back not to
Hellenistic Greece but to Sumeria c. 2500 BCE.
Even the Hurrian hymn to Nikkal from Ugarit is
more modern, from c. 1400 BCE.
But foolish people do come up with foolish
hobbies. It's just that some of them are more
expensive than others.
John
--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:John....@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
"We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
John Briggs
>
> I hate to sound like a spoil-sport, but I don't
> care whether the computer has the power of the
> Cray used for the liquid metal scenes in the
> Terminator movies; if there's no living example
> of the instrument to model on, the modelers are
> simply fooling themselves and drunk on technology
> (Garbage In, Garbage Out!). As you point out
> yourself, of course, in the matter of tuning,
> even though we do know quite a lot about the
> THEORY of Greek modes and tuning. And of course
> "ancient" depends on your point of view. The
> most "ancient" musical notation (and for the most
> part too obscure to reconstruct) goes back not to
> Hellenistic Greece but to Sumeria c. 2500 BCE.
> Even the Hurrian hymn to Nikkal from Ugarit is
> more modern, from c. 1400 BCE.
>
> But foolish people do come up with foolish
> hobbies. It's just that some of them are more
> expensive than others.
There was the famous example of the French musicologist who reconstructed
some ancient music (Hittite?) employing what was described as "a lethal
combination of Gallic logic and feminine intuition"!
--
John Briggs
Whiskers
> At 1:16 PM +0100 9/4/08, Whiskers wrote:
>>
>>> Ancient Musical Instruments Play Again Through Astra Project
>>>
>>> Ancient musical instruments can now be heard for the first time in
>>> hundreds of years, due to a new computer modelling project. ASTRA
>>> (Ancient instruments Sound/Timbre Reconstruction Application) has
>>> recreated the sounds of the harp-like Epigonion musical instrument
>>> from Ancient Greece and has performed one of the oldest known musical
>>> scores dating back to the Middle Ages. To achieve this it used the
>>> advanced GÉANT2 and EUMEDCONNECT research networks to link high
>>> capacity computers together, sharing information to enable the
>>> computer-intensive modelling of musical sounds.
>
> I hate to sound like a spoil-sport, but I don't
> care whether the computer has the power of the
> Cray used for the liquid metal scenes in the
> Terminator movies; if there's no living example
> of the instrument to model on, the modelers are
> simply fooling themselves and drunk on technology
> (Garbage In, Garbage Out!). As you point out
> yourself, of course, in the matter of tuning,
> even though we do know quite a lot about the
> THEORY of Greek modes and tuning.
I quite agree. The experimenters may too, on the quiet, I suspect.
A more believable reconstruction of a 'lost' instrument would be physical,
based as closely as possible on known remnants and images and documents -
but even that could result in something no closer than say a cheap Chinese
mass-produced violin as a 'copy' of a Strad. Really, it's all 'educated
guesswork'. Even if a complete instrument is extant, it might not sound
the way it was meant to - even if the player happens to hit upon the
'right' playing method and tuning.
I'm also a little confused as to why medieval and baroque music was chosen
to demonstrate a 'virtual' Classical Greek instrument.
> And of course
> "ancient" depends on your point of view. The
> most "ancient" musical notation (and for the most
> part too obscure to reconstruct) goes back not to
> Hellenistic Greece but to Sumeria c. 2500 BCE.
> Even the Hurrian hymn to Nikkal from Ugarit is
> more modern, from c. 1400 BCE.
>
> But foolish people do come up with foolish
> hobbies. It's just that some of them are more
> expensive than others.
>
> John
Hey, they're trying to make music - that has to earn them a point or two
for effort, even if you don't like the style ;))
Whiskers
I can remember many years ago that the BBC interviewed a musician who had
been called upon to play a 'restored' ancient Egyptian trumpet-like
instrument whose sound was then recorded and described as 'the music of
the Pharoahs' or some such thing. The musician confessed that no-one
could tell him how to play the thing or what sound to expect, so he wedged
in a modern trumpet mouth-piece and messed around till he got some musical
noises. (I've seen the same trick done with a garden hose and a kitchen
sink, among other hollow tube-like things).
John Howell
>
>I can remember many years ago that the BBC interviewed a musician who had
>been called upon to play a 'restored' ancient Egyptian trumpet-like
>instrument whose sound was then recorded and described as 'the music of
>the Pharoahs' or some such thing. The musician confessed that no-one
>could tell him how to play the thing or what sound to expect, so he wedged
>in a modern trumpet mouth-piece and messed around till he got some musical
>noises. (I've seen the same trick done with a garden hose and a kitchen
>sink, among other hollow tube-like things).
The late and definitely unlamented Telemann Society did the same
thing. I knew a horn player who played one of their recording
sessions. As he arrived, they handed him a natural horn, an
instrument he had never played before. This is why their recordings
made the historical instruments sound awful!
But when Dennis Brain played Mozart on the garden hose (and it may
have been on one of the Hoffnung Interplanetary Music Festival
concerts), he made it sound like a musical instrument (Hose in D or
Eb, of course!).
Whiskers
> At 12:21 AM +0100 9/5/08, Whiskers wrote:
>>
>>I can remember many years ago that the BBC interviewed a musician who had
>>been called upon to play a 'restored' ancient Egyptian trumpet-like
>>instrument whose sound was then recorded and described as 'the music of
>>the Pharoahs' or some such thing. The musician confessed that no-one
>>could tell him how to play the thing or what sound to expect, so he wedged
>>in a modern trumpet mouth-piece and messed around till he got some musical
>>noises. (I've seen the same trick done with a garden hose and a kitchen
>>sink, among other hollow tube-like things).
>
> The late and definitely unlamented Telemann Society did the same
> thing. I knew a horn player who played one of their recording
> sessions. As he arrived, they handed him a natural horn, an
> instrument he had never played before. This is why their recordings
> made the historical instruments sound awful!
>
> But when Dennis Brain played Mozart on the garden hose (and it may
> have been on one of the Hoffnung Interplanetary Music Festival
> concerts), he made it sound like a musical instrument (Hose in D or
> Eb, of course!).
Ah, yes, but is that what the hose was originally /supposed/ to sound like?
:))
cactustiger
>
> "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
> of jazz musicians.
I seem to remember hearing from a lecturer, back when I was an
undergraduate, that the instrument in question was from Tutankhamen’s
tomb, and that when the unfortunate brass player rammed in a
conventional mouthpiece the instrument shattered - a very shame-faced
BBC apparently covered the whole thing up...but perhaps this is just
an apocryphal tale!
Best,
Chris
Whiskers
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:43:55 +1000, John Howell wrote
> (in article <mailman.151.122192...@wu-wien.ac.at>):
>
>> At 12:21 AM +0100 9/5/08, Whiskers wrote:
[...]
> I offer this quote from Arnold Dolmetsch, writing over 50 years ago:
>
> "Once a genial professor, lecturing on musical instruments, blew into a
> cornet to demonstrate its tone to the students; it sounded like the bleating
> of a calf; great laughter. The superiority of modern instruments was proved.
> It may, however, have occurred to some, that had he tried to demonstrate the
> tone of a violin he might have obtained an equal success; for the mewing a
> cat is as risible as the bleating of a calf. But this happened a generation
> ago, and the thick fog of ignorance surrounding these things has begun to
> disperse."
Reminds me of my one and only attempt to play a bugle. But I can get what
I think is a 'valid' sound from a didgeridoo.
> Perhaps the dispersal of the fog is taking its time in some parts of the
> world.
In some places it's more jelly than fog.
Whiskers
> On Sep 20, 5:43 pm, John Howell <John.How...@vt.edu> wrote:
>> At 12:21 AM +0100 9/5/08, Whiskers wrote:
>> >I can remember many years ago that the BBC interviewed a musician who had
>> >been called upon to play a 'restored' ancient Egyptian trumpet-like
>> >instrument whose sound was then recorded and described as 'the music of
>> >the Pharoahs' or some such thing. The musician confessed that no-one
>> >could tell him how to play the thing or what sound to expect, so he wedged
>> >in a modern trumpet mouth-piece and messed around till he got some musical
>> >noises. (I've seen the same trick done with a garden hose and a kitchen
>> >sink, among other hollow tube-like things).
[...]
> I seem to remember hearing from a lecturer, back when I was an
> undergraduate, that the instrument in question was from Tutankhamen’s
> tomb, and that when the unfortunate brass player rammed in a
> conventional mouthpiece the instrument shattered - a very shame-faced
> BBC apparently covered the whole thing up...but perhaps this is just
> an apocryphal tale!
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
If the first attempt broke the instrument, that could be why the version
of the tale I heard mentioned "restoration".
Gerry
The fact that it evokes ancient music is what matters.
Some scientific person can work out how close an approximation it is to the
real thing using digits and numbers.
The fact that powerful computers were used in the recreation is interesting
but just listen to the music. It is great and it does evoke what they set
out to evoke,