doucaine
Ernic Kamerich
played directly (without a cap) with a cylidrical bore, probably with the
look of a shawm. I agree and I don't believe that it is something like the
16th century sordun or cornamuse or the so called Hirtenschalmei (without
proof). All reconstructions of a doucaine are rather hypothetical, so
practice must guide finding the best design.
Now I am interested in reconstructions according these ideas. I know already
that Eric Moulder makes such an instrument, well playing. My questions are:
Do you know of other reconstructions according tot the previous description?
And if you have experience with such a reconstruction, please, can you tell
me what are the dimensions of that instrument (i.e. inner bore width and
total length), what are the dimensions and model of the ree?
And how does it work in practice, for instance with which instruments can it
be combined well in good balance?
Thank you for all kind of information.
Ernic Kamerich
Aage
on the excavated Mary Rose.
Good luck!
Aage
Jack Campin - bogus address
> played directly (without a cap) with a cylidrical bore, probably with the
> look of a shawm. I agree and I don't believe that it is something like the
> 16th century sordun or cornamuse or the so called Hirtenschalmei (without
> proof). All reconstructions of a doucaine are rather hypothetical, so
> practice must guide finding the best design.
> Now I am interested in reconstructions according these ideas. I know already
> that Eric Moulder makes such an instrument, well playing. My questions are:
> Do you know of other reconstructions according tot the previous description?
> And if you have experience with such a reconstruction, please, can you tell
> me what are the dimensions of that instrument (i.e. inner bore width and
> total length), what are the dimensions and model of the ree?
> And how does it work in practice, for instance with which instruments can it
> be combined well in good balance?
Could there have been a Western European instrument along the lines of
the Turkish mey, Armenian duduk or Azeri balaban? - they have double
reeds, parallel bore, and the reed is so massive that the sound is more
like a clarinet than an oboe.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
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Gaita
The 'shawm-like instrument' with cylindrical bore and no reedcap that
was found on the Mary Rose is sometimes refered to still-shawm. I
believe the Moulder instrument is a reconstruction. It was written up
in an article in Early Music in 1983 (available on JSTOR if you have
access to it) and the Mary Rose Museum has a reconstruction (possibly
the Moulder one). I have been meaning to drop into the museum to see
it and try the reconstuction (and the reconstruction of the fiddles
found) but never quite found myself anywhere near Portsmouth.
Chris Elmes
raybro
> The 'shawm-like instrument' with cylindrical bore and no reedcap that
> was found on the Mary Rose is sometimes refered to still-shawm. I
> believe the Moulder instrument is a reconstruction. It was written up
> in an article in Early Music in 1983 (available on JSTOR if you have
I have access to Jstor because I am an ancient school-child. Forgive
me if I add a bit of discussion of the content of the articles for the
benefit of those who, like me for the last 30 years (between colleges)
have not had this kind of access (or like me, have failed to set aside
half my bookshelves for back-copies of all the journals and magazines
I've subscribed or bought off-the-shelf for the last 50 years. Believe
me, my wife appreciates that I didn't!)
The cite quoted above is:
Musical Instruments from the Mary Rose: A Report on Work in Progress
Frances Palmer
Early Music, Vol. 11, No. 1, Tenth Anniversary Issue. (Jan.,
1983), pp. 53-59.
It contains line drawings of instruments from the Mary Rose as well as
verbal descriptions, although the drawings do not show a scale. While
the author refers to the instrument as a shawm, he includes the latin
text of Tinctoris which describes the tibia and "dulcinam a
dulcidine". The former has seven holes (on the front) and the latter
has 8, seven "on the front" and an eighth behind, but further
description notes that the "seventh hole" (apparently the lowest one)
can be matched with another, offset on the other side, so the player
can play left-upper or right-upper handed. That makes it pretty clear
that Tinctoris considers the seventh hole to be the lowest hole
(flutes being a six-hole, shawms a seven-hole and this beasty an eight-
hole pipe "like the fistula [recorder]". The Mary Rose instrument has
a conical bore for most of its length, a thumb hole (to assist
overblowing) but no sign of keywork or holes to "fill" the space
between the octave and the 10th. It does have an additional (nineth)
hole placed for the little finger of the left hand in left-hand high
position (with no matching hole on the other side), "to improve the
tuning of a particular note (Palmer 57). Palmer also refers to
Praetorius' drawings, citing hole spacing and says the Mary Rose
instrument's spacing is different enough to cause him to differentiate
this instrument from shawms, although he continues to speak of it as a
shawm.
A later article,
The Mary Rose 'Shawm'
Herbert W. Myers
Early Music, Vol. 11, No. 3. (Jul., 1983), pp. 358-360.
under the "Observations" heading, notes that the instrument is not a
shawm, lacking a cylindrical bore, and is probably not any kind of
transitional form. He cites Boydell as having already provided the
answer, since Boydell had already established that the doucaine was
straight and uncapped. This is where the term "Still Shawm" comes from
(one which I faintly remembered seeing decades ago, but parsed as
"still a shawm" when I saw it in the post above, my bad!) Otherwise,
he notes that the extra fingerhole might serve a better purpose in
providing the semitone between the hands than just as a tuning
adjuster for some other note, and that an extra key below would do the
job of "filling the gap" as well as holes above do on the krummhorn.
The Mary Rose shawm has two keys on the bottom (covered by two
different fontenelles.) [When I first saw them, I wondered why most
shawms I've seen (iconography or museums or reconstructions) keep the
low key and the semitone key above that under one fontenelle. That the
lower key is a 'gap filler' does seem more logical.] He concludes
that, if the Mary Rose instrument had been a loud shawm, it would have
been unique for England, but as a still shawm, it is unique for
western Europe (Myers 360).
ray
Ernic Kamerich
>
>
> Could there have been a Western European instrument along the lines of
> the Turkish mey, Armenian duduk or Azeri balaban? - they have double
> reeds, parallel bore, and the reed is so massive that the sound is more
> like a clarinet than an oboe.
That's exactly what I think the doucaine has been. A duduk has a warm and
quiet character not unlike the lower register of a clarinet can be. It has a
combination of a massive long reed (about 2mm, 24 mm broad and with a blade
length of more than 4 cm) and a wide bore of about 11-12 mm (dimensions
taken from one duduk with bottom note a 220Hz), which would suggest about 15
mm for an instrument with bottom note c. That diameter is about the same as
taht of a modern clarinet. My tenor version of the Mary Rose instrument by
Moulder has a much narrower bore of 6 mm.
I think that I have read somewhere sometime that the Mary Rose double reed
bass has a (cylindrical) bore of about 8 mm, but I don't know if that is
correct. I can not find dimensions of the Mary Rose instrument in
JSTOR-Early Music. Does somebody know what is the diameter of the bore?
Obviously a narrow bore weakens the low overtones and promotes the high
ones, causing a more penetrating tone quality. So I expected that any
instrument based on the Mary Rose instrument would generate a rather
penetrating sound, although less so than a crumhorn while it is played with
the reed between the lips of the player instead of free in a cap. That is my
experience with the -otherwise fine- Moulder instrument. That instrument can
be used very well in several combinations, but it has not the modest
character that I would expect for a tenor part in a three part chanson of
Dufay, for instance.
The tenor made by Phil Neuman, owned and played by Aage Nielsen, who reacted
also in this discussion, can be heard on http://www.myspace.com/aagenielsen.
(Aage, my compliments for your fine playing and good control of your
instrument!) This instrument sounds rather warm, less penetrating than I
would expect for a diameter of 6mm (or is it wider???) and more in the
direction of the sound I have in mind, anyhow I can imagine that this
instrument blends rather well with other soft renaissance and medieval
instruments, as he tells on his webside. It is really an interesting
instrument.
Nevertheless, I still conjecture that the Mary Rose instrument is not simply
a bass version of the 14th-15th century tenor doucaine. With its strange
fingers + keys system that can yield a continuous range with the first
overblown notes -not a very interesting option for 14th and 15th century
use- it seems to me that the Mary Rose doublereed instrument has not been a
mainstream instrument, but a special, an invention.
A sound like that of the duduk would suit my musical intuitive idea of a
(tenor) doucaine much better than a sound like a lip controlled version of
the tenor crumhorn or even the muted sound of a tenor cornamuse. So I guess
that the real tenor doucaine had a bore diameter more like the duduk, say 14
mm, or a little less. Moreover I guess that the doucaine was rather long,
providing resonance and a not too harsh bottom note, and possibly that it
had a bell like the type of the medieval shawms of Hanchet, acting almost as
a d'amore bell. It may have had a mouth plate and possibbly a rather broad
and thik reed. I know that my conjecture is not a scientific one, it is just
based on practical needs and I hope to get some opinions and experiences
from musicians and experts on this forum. Thank you in advance!
Ernic