transitional recorders, recorder temperament
Don Cameron
upon a collection for soprano recorder and keyboard, "Easy Music from
Monteverdi's Time" (Dolce, Bernhard Thomas, ed.), I began gently encouraging
my wife, a relatively inexperienced alto recorderist, to consider getting an
a'=415 soprano. Some interesting questions soon came to light:
1. What is an appropriate recorder for this period? The music requires
a 2-octave instrument, which I understand is a larger compass than
Renaissance recorders have.
I understand there is such a thing as a "transitional" type of recorder
(known perhaps by another name to residents of 1620 Venice ... 8-), but
I could find nothing about it in Ken Wollitz' book, the New Grove recorder
article, nor in the one(!) recent book on recorder history in the Stanford
Library.
2. Would a transitional recorder be more difficult to play than an "equivalent"
later Baroque instrument? Would the fingerings to get a full two octaves
be mind- (and finger-) numbing to a person accustomed to a familiar
Baroque alto? And who are some of the reputable makers of such instruments
at a'=415? (My harpsichord is a=415, doesn't transpose, and can't be
'cranked up' to 440).
3. Currently the harpsichord is tuned in 1/4 comma meantone. Of course, I
can (with great reluctance) tune it in a well-temperament instead, but
are there any other options for playing with recorders? What do we
know about historical unequal temperaments for recorders?
4. Would an inexperienced recorderist be helped or hindered in learning to
play in tune by a radically unequally-tempered recorder? (Assume
she won't soon be encouraged to play chromatic scales on it ... 8-).
Grateful for any info,
Don
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Don Cameron | Huh?? "Meantone" isn't a legal word?!?
d...@cup.hp.com | &@#$%! spell checker ...
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Tom Permutt
Don Cameron <d...@HPCLL24.CUP.HP.COM> wrote:
>
>3. Currently the harpsichord is tuned in 1/4 comma meantone. Of course, I
> can (with great reluctance) tune it in a well-temperament instead, but
> are there any other options for playing with recorders? What do we
> know about historical unequal temperaments for recorders?
>
>4. Would an inexperienced recorderist be helped or hindered in learning to
> play in tune by a radically unequally-tempered recorder? (Assume
> she won't soon be encouraged to play chromatic scales on it ... 8-).
>
>Grateful for any info,
>Don
I don't think recorders are really tempered at all. They are basically
diatonic instruments. For most of the accidentals we use whatever
combination of fingering, thumbing, and shading happens to work. This
varies from instrument to instrument as well as with the dynamic. The
pitch you will get from any fingering varies a lot more than the
differences between various keyboard temperaments, and you have to listen
and adjust to play in tune. If you have the ear, I don't think it would
be any harder to play in tune with a mean-tone harpsichord than with an
equal-tempered piano.
--
Tom Permutt
perm...@clark.net
Per Sabelstrom
A ganassi type should work.That would play 2 octaves.
2 More difficult ?
Different fingerings, most so in the high register - BUT
firmer bottom (the blowing pressure more uniform) makes it easyer
in that respect than your typical baroque soprano.
3 Temperament ?
Shouldn't be a problem.
4 Helped or hindered ?
I would say neither, based on my experience that people are more
apt to mess upp octaves rather then smaller intervalls
.
I like to add that the typical pitch from that period is ~ a=460,but I
wouldnt draw any conclusion on "fittness of playing the music in 415 with
recorder" from that, because none (probably) of that music was intended
for recoreder anyway.
The inly possible exeption from that, that I know of, is a trio by
Castello, and that would (if its intended for recorders) be for G altos.
Myself, I find it very nice to play (and listen to) Cima Castello Fontana ..
on the recorder + Continue combo in 415.
Per Sabelstrom (Recorder maker)
Richard M. Wilson
Tom Permutt <perm...@clark.net> wrote:
>In article <940805031...@hpcll24.cup.hp.com>,
>Don Cameron <d...@HPCLL24.CUP.HP.COM> wrote:
>>
>>3. Currently the harpsichord is tuned in 1/4 comma meantone. Of course, I
>> can (with great reluctance) tune it in a well-temperament instead, but
>> are there any other options for playing with recorders? What do we
>> know about historical unequal temperaments for recorders?
>>
>>4. Would an inexperienced recorderist be helped or hindered in learning to
>> play in tune by a radically unequally-tempered recorder? (Assume
>> she won't soon be encouraged to play chromatic scales on it ... 8-).
>>
>>Grateful for any info,
>>Don
>
>I don't think recorders are really tempered at all. They are basically
Sure they are tempered, or tuned. I have a Ganassi style instrument by JL
Boudreau (sp?) tuned in real meantone with an extra body tuned in 1/6 comma
meantone. On the real meantone (i.e. 1/4 comma), the b and the e above
it are much flatter than on the other more well tempered instrumnet--
to keep the thirds g-b and c-e pure. The b-c semitone is very large in
meantone.
Unless the harpsichord is also tuned in meantone, don't try a meantone
instrument with it, is my advice, from experience.
Neither playing Ganassi style instruments (certainly the best for circa 1600
violin music) nor playing in meantone is easy. An inexperienced player
may need help (and perseverence).
Lake County Public Library
referring to the sort of late-renaissance recorder that would be used to play
Van Eyck, et al. The Kobliczek Praetorius and Mollenhauer Kynsecker are two
reasonably priced transitional instruments, but (alas) I don't think that
they are available in renaissance or baroque pitch. Higher on the scale are
Levin/Silverstein and David Ohanessian; I have played renaissance meantone
recorders by both of these makers, and they are quite nice. Also, I have
seen adverts for used instruments by these makers which were A=460.
Presumably, if they are willing to make A=460, they would be willing to
make A=415 recorders. (unfortunately, custom instruments are even more
costly....) If you persevere, I should think that you could find a recorder
to suit your pitch and temperament requirements.
As to the level of difficulty involved in playing a mean-tone recorder: yes,
there are differences in the fingerings, but the few times I've played one,
I was able to adapt (after hitting a few bizarre f-naturals). More important
(IMHO) is will the player be using the recorder for anything else? If she'll
only be playing with the A=415 virginal aforementioned, that's cool, but if
she plays with other recorder players who don't have meantone instruments
(let alone "baroque" pitch), she might have a hard time fitting in. (Unless
she can borrow instrumentjs from the other players, or already has consort
instruments....)
That's enough babbling. Good luck and happy (instrument) hunting. D.Peters.
Charles Stroom
> In article <31tgli$r...@explorer.clark.net>,
> Tom Permutt <perm...@clark.net> wrote:
> >
> >I don't think recorders are really tempered at all. They are basically
> >diatonic instruments. [deletions]
>
I always thought that this music was best performed on violins :-)
Charles Stroom, Estec/YCV
cha...@yc.estec.esa.nl or CST...@ESTEC.BITNET
European Space Technology Centre, Noordwijk, the Netherlands
Phone: +31 1719 84014, Fax: +31 1719 12142, Telex: 39098
tlsterry
Don Cameron <d...@HPCLL24.CUP.HP.COM> writes:
An appropriate recorder would be the so-called "Ganassi" recorder which
is offered by several makers, including von Huene (USA), Frederick
Morgan (Australia), Michael Grinter (Australia), Peter Kobliczek
(Germany). There is a variety of prices and waiting times. As I
understand it, this type of recorder has been developed fairly
recently, esentially from the fingering charts of Sylvestro Ganassi,
without real access to a reliably-identifiable historical specimen. (A
reader may be able to confirm or correct this.) Having a basically
cylindrical bore with an expansion in diameter at the bell, it is
capable of being made with a single headpiece and multiple lower joints
to usually allow playing at A440 and a semitone higher and lower.
(There appears to be evidence that Italian music of this period was at
about to-day's pitch or higher.)
These recorders, usually made as a c-soprano and a g-alto, are
marvellous to play, and certainly sound good in this repertoire, with
their exciting attack and strong low notes. I would agree that this
repertoire was probably the province of violinists and cornettists, but
playing it on a Ganassi recorder has a ring of truth, I think.
Fingerings are closely related (ie need very little modification) to
the usual baroque fingerings for almost two octaves. The notes that are
quite different (and I'll use the soprano nomenclature) are the second
octave notes from b natural upwards. However, you can get used to them,
after some initial awkwardness. The full range of these instruments is
close to three octaves, as specified in Ganassi's book.
Recorder fingering can be modified to fit in with any reasonable system
of tuning adopted by harpsichord tuners, in my experience, so it's just
about always possible to play in tune.
Dr. Stephen Block
>The full range of these instruments is
>close to three octaves, as specified in Ganassi's book.
REALLY? I've never heard of a recorder with that much range. I recall
Wollitz's book giving fingerings for 2 1/2 octaves, and I've never
gotten more than 2 and a major third.
--
Stephen Bloch
sbl...@adx.adelphi.edu
Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University
Don Cameron
[ interesting and informative material regarding Ganassi recorders deleted ]
> Recorder fingering can be modified to fit in with any reasonable system
> of tuning adopted by harpsichord tuners, in my experience, so it's just
> about always possible to play in tune.
of getting two lower joints (as suggested by an earlier response to my
note), one for meantone and the other for a well- temperament, but rather
tune by using alternative fingerings. But I wonder whether this is a
reasonable course of action for the less-experienced player. Would
alternate fingerings be needed for almost every note?
Comparing 1/4 comma meantone vs. 1/6 comma well-temperament, for the
natural ("white") keys I think only the "A"'s have the same frequencies
in both systems. I imagine the accidentals vary the most, though.
I think alternate fingerings for the naturals is probably asking too much;
if these can't be tuned with the breath (or maybe "fudging" the amount of
hole(s) covered), then the less experienced should consider getting an
alternately-tuned lower joint. Comments?
Don
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Don Cameron d...@cup.hp.com | "meantone" is not in my spelling
Hewlett-Packard, Cupertino CA | checker.
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Rafe Ronkin
>>close to three octaves, as specified in Ganassi's book.
> REALLY? I've never heard of a recorder with that much range. I
> recall
> Wollitz's book giving fingerings for 2 1/2 octaves, and I've never
> gotten more than 2 and a major third.
> --
> Stephen Bloch
>
> sbl...@adx.adelphi.edu
I just returned from Amherst Early Music and a week in Aldo Abreu's course in
technique. His _Warm-ups & Technical Exercises for the Recorder_, (c) Aldo
Abreu 1993, [obtainable from the author] shows fingering tables that take the
baroque alto recorder up to f#, just past the third octave. Most of the range
provides different fingerings for all harmonic pairs; e.g., c# and db. No
fingering is given for the e just below the highest f. Abreu recommends that
daily practice include arpeggios through 3 octaves. His demo instrument is
plastic with the usual double holes at positions 6 and 7.
I don't know whether he has an e-mail address. The Am. Rec. Soc. directory
shows his address as 3209 East 10th Street, Bloomington, Indiana 47408; tel.
812-336-1785.
** Rafe ** [R. R. Ronkin, community volunteer]
Fido 1:109/151.18; <rafe....@p18.f151.n109.z1.fidonet.org>;
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---------
Fidonet: Rafe Ronkin 1:109/151.18
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tlsterry
sbl...@adx.adelphi.edu (Dr. Stephen Block) writes:
> The full range of these instruments is
> >close to three octaves, as specified in Ganassi's book.
>
> REALLY? I've never heard of a recorder with that much range. I recall
> Wollitz's book giving fingerings for 2 1/2 octaves, and I've never
> gotten more than 2 and a major third.
Ganassi's fingering charts go up to note VI in the third octave.
Whether you can get them or not depends, I guess, on the individual
recorder's voicing and bore/hole dimensions, amongst other things. I've
not found the notes past III to much used. (On the soprano, they might
be of interest to passing dogs!)