Monteverdi L'Orfeo- recommndations
Buridan
of this work?
Jim
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
> Could anyone recommend a recording(s)
> of this work?
Dear Jim,
I have always loved my first version of the opera, the one
edited by L'Oiseaux Lyre, with Ainsley as Orfeo, directed
by Pickett. Lovely rendering!
It's been accused of being too much of a "Brit" version,
but I love it.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Flavio Ferri Benedetti *** Countertenor-Sopranist
Translation Studies (Universitat Jaume I)
http://www.orfeo-translations.com --> Translation Services
http://www.caffarelli.net --> Baroque Singing - My Voice
"Nunc scio quid sit amor" (Virgilio, Bucoliche, VIII, 43)
Owk28
>It's been accused of being too much of a "Brit" version,
>but I love it.
>
I don't know this recording but am intrigued as to the (negative?)
characteristics of a "Brit" recording. Can you elaborate? Is this a general
perception in the States?
Curiously,
Oliver Webber
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
> characteristics of a "Brit" recording. Can you elaborate? Is this a
general
> perception in the States?
Dear Oliver,
I cannot answer to your former question, as I do not live in the States but
in Southern Europe. Here, specialized magazines of "classical" music,
mostly when reviewing baroque vocal recordings, usually tread a line
between "North European" and "South European" recordings.
The cliché has it, that "Northern European" (mostly "Brit") recordings
are, usually "colder", "less passionate", while "Mediterranean" recordings
are usually "warmer".
I absolutely do not share this view, as I have often found English, Dutch
(or wherever) performances of Monteverdi (talking about Orfeo) much more
satisfying than others from Southern Europe. Must be a matter of taste.
Anyway, "de gustibus non disputandum est" :-) I hate clichés!
Best regards,
Sebastian Millies
playing (I particularly like the regal accompanying Charon).
Another good recording - from Southern Europe ;-) - is
Garrido's with Ensemble Elyma.
-- Sebastian
"Flavio "Senesino" FBG" <flavio...@ffbg.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:becptt$3kngv$1...@ID-118982.news.dfncis.de...
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
> Yes, that's one of my favourites, too. Very lively continuo
> playing (I particularly like the regal accompanying Charon).
Yes, the continuo is definitely lovely. I also liked the wind
instruments. But of course Pickett is a specialist there :-)
> Another good recording - from Southern Europe ;-) - is
> Garrido's with Ensemble Elyma.
I have bought both Garrido's Poppea and Ulisse (they are excellent,
with an all-falsetto cast for Poppea, a very nice choice), but I haven't
got hold of his Orfeo yet. They say it is wonderful.
Best regards,
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Flavio Ferri Benedetti *** Countertenor-Sopranist
Translation Studies (Universitat Jaume I)
http://www.orfeo-translations.com --> Freelance Translation Services
Laura Conrad
Oliver> I don't know this recording but am intrigued as to the (negative?)
Oliver> characteristics of a "Brit" recording.
There's nothing negative about being a "Brit" recording if it's Brit
music, but if it's Italian music, it should sound Italian.
--
Laura (mailto:lco...@laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
Roman
myself have 2 versions.
One on K617 with the great italian director Gabriel Garrido and his
ensemble Elyma real fineness great detail and my favorit
The 2nd with Rene Jacobs alsoo a great perfomance especially the
musicall intro.
Good luck.
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
> ensemble Elyma real fineness great detail and my favorit
Mr Garrido is definitely *not* Italian.
Riccardo
> One on K617 with the great italian director Gabriel Garrido
Garrido is from Argentina!
BTW my 2 euro-cents go to him.
Greetings,
Riccardo
Roman
Remains it is a fine recording
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:52:22 +0200, "Riccardo" <nos...@please.org>
wrote:
Terry Simmons
<j...@nospamma.humph65.fsworld.co.uk> wrote:
I seem to be a sucker for this work. I discovered, to my alarm, that I
have five recordings. Anyway, in my opinion these excel:
EMI, "Chiaroscuro" and London Baroque, directed by Nigel Rogers and
Charles Medlam.
Harmonia Mundi, Concerto Vocale, dir. Rene Jacobs.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Douglas Clark
bought it after seening Roger Norrington's live production in the Assembly
Room in 1988.
--
Douglas Clark, Bath, Somerset, England ....
Lynx: Poetry from Bath ......
... http://www.dgdclynx.plus.com/lynx.html
Buridan
"Roman" <alpha...@mail.yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes there severall very beautifull ones I (a big Monteverdi fan)
> myself have 2 versions.
> One on K617 with the great italian director Gabriel Garrido and his
> ensemble Elyma real fineness great detail and my favorit
> The 2nd with Rene Jacobs alsoo a great perfomance especially the
> musicall intro.
> Good luck.
>
I tried to get Garrido at HMV, but they didn't have it. Instead
I got Gardiner with the English Baroque Soloists, Montague, Von Otter
Johnson. I have to say that I am a bit disappointed by it: it has too
much of "Northern pallor" about it as someone said. The only all-
Italian version was on Naxos, but I by-passed this in favour of Gardiner:
I'm beginning to regret this now. Gardiner's L'Incoronazione was excellent
however. I'll order the Garrido!
Jim H
Owk28
>There's nothing negative about being a "Brit" recording if it's Brit
>music, but if it's Italian music, it should sound Italian.
That makes sense up to a point, but of course the logical conclusion of that
line of thought is that we should only record or perform the music of our own
countries! Do you think this is true?
(I'm not on the defensive, just interested in where this might lead!)
Oliver
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
that
> line of thought is that we should only record or perform the music of our
own
> countries! Do you think this is true?
Dear Oliver,
the interesting thing is, English performers are welcome to perform Italian
baroque
repertoire (including opera), but try to sell them an Italian singing
Dowland or Purcell,
and see what happens. "The singer probably understands the lyrics". Oh
really.
I will not go further, alas.
David Hitchin
DVD with La Capella Reial De Catalunya, et al, directed by Jordi Savall.
David Hitchin
Sybrand Bakker
>That makes sense up to a point, but of course the logical conclusion of that
>line of thought is that we should only record or perform the music of our own
>countries! Do you think this is true?
>(I'm not on the defensive, just interested in where this might lead!)
>Oliver
Yes this is true. The English are in fact a case in point. I have a CD
called 'Faire is the Heaven' with English church music from some 10
centuries. The group directed by John Rutter manages to sing them all
the same.
Also there is the example of Mr. John Eliot Gardiner, who will never
understand German sacred baroque music, simply because the Anglican
Church has a completely different character from the German Lutheran
Church. Any sacred piece conducted by Mr. Gardiner sounds technically
brilliant but he quite often misses the spirit.
If you have ever compared recordings of the Consort of Musicke of
Monteverdi madrigals with those by Concerto Italiano you get about the
same issue. You can easily understand why Emma Kirkby is called 'the
singing fridge'. The Consort of Musicke recordings are technically
brilliant, but emotionally they are stone cold. How different are the
recordings of the Concerto Italiano. The singers have much darker
voices and they are all emotions.
A recent example is the recording of Carmen by Anne-Sofie van Otter
singing Carmen. She shouldn't have done that: She doesn't understand
the Spanish temperament, and she isn't a very charismatic person, both
virtues which are required to successfully sing Carmen.
I must admit though the Italian way of playing Italian music, as we
can hear from Il Giardino Armonico can end up as a gimmick, giving
rise to feelings of boredom.
Regards
Sybrand Bakker
Sybrand Bakker
I completely second that one. For once one doesn't resort to a
'modern' staging. even the musicians are dressed with 17th century
robes. And of course the entrance of Jordi Savall is very impressive.
John Howell
>I have bought both Garrido's Poppea and Ulisse (they are excellent,
>with an all-falsetto cast for Poppea, a very nice choice), but I haven't
>got hold of his Orfeo yet. They say it is wonderful.
Actually (and you probably know this), according to the original
clefs, Monteverdi intended Nerone to be sung by a male soprano. We
did a concert version at Indiana many years ago, conducted by Fiora
Contino, and we did have a male soprano for the role even though his
voice was not what you would call beautiful. It made the love duets
come to life in a very special way, unlike the warmed-over Verdi
effect that's inevitable when Nerone is sung by a tenor. And it made
the contrast between the youngsters' naive love and the calculating
demeanor of Poppea and Nerone even more stark. However, I can't
imagine Senecca being sung by a countertenor!
John
--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:John....@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
Sebastian Millies
recordings, the reasons may not necessarily have to do with the
musicians' place of birth.
For one thing, the Consort of Musicke madrigal recordings which
I know are all rather old. Performance style has changed much since
these early times ...
Have you ever heard Kirkby sing Buxtehude's solo cantatas? That is
simply masterful, very appropriate to the music, and in no way
unemotional. Have you heard Monica Huggett's recording with Esbl.
Galatea of Marini violin sonatas? I could go on forever.
On the other hand, Il Giardino Armonico are not the only case in point.
The insufferable Fabio Biondi is another (quite as awful as Manze, only
different). And I Musici di Roma shouldn't be mentioned in this forum
at all. :-)
And one has got to bear in my mind that much Italian-styled baroque
music wasn't in fact written by Italian-born composers. Wouldn't it
be strange if today's musicians were somehow more constrained by
their ancestry? But what about music schools?
This is getting off-topic, isn't it?
-- Sebastian
"Sybrand Bakker" <sybr...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:qqkrgv8sh2cjhh29o...@4ax.com...
Todd Michel McComb
No, I don't think this sort of thing is off-topic at all, at least
for the newsgroup in general. I think there is definitely a
stereotypical "English" style of singing, which was especially
prominent in the 1980s and into the 1990s. Most English singers
sang that way, while some didn't. And some singers from other
countries imitated it too. Part of the reason it was so popular,
of course, is that it did involve quality. Then it got to the point
where many people -- especially record reviewers -- thought that
all Early Music should be sung that way. What you're reading here
is more the backlash to that catholic (if you will) sentiment. Many
popular recordings do have what I take to be a rather strong English
accent. It always leaves me scratching my head when singers will
discuss in great detail about the particular historical phonemes
they're singing for some particular country, and then indeed they
are singing "phonemes" but it's still with a heavy English accent.
But what is the standard quip? "The English cannot pronounce
anything." I hope you know I'm being whimsical at this point.
I do *not*, however, perceive a standard "English" style in
instrumental music.
Oh, and the oft-cited _Early Music Voice_ by John Potter, addresses
many of these issues.
Todd McComb
mcc...@medieval.org
MegaMole
<mcc...@medieval.org> writes
>
>Oh, and the oft-cited _Early Music Voice_ by John Potter, addresses
>many of these issues.
As long as you remember Potter's many agendas.
--
MM
Buridan
"Sybrand Bakker" wrote in message
news:qqkrgv8sh2cjhh29o...@4ax.com...
> Also there is the example of Mr. John Eliot Gardiner, who will never
> understand German sacred baroque music, simply because the Anglican
> Church has a completely different character from the German Lutheran
> Church.
>
I don't follow the argument here. Assuming that one accepts that
the Anglican Church has a different 'character' ( its not really clear
what this means btw), why should it follow that Gardiner
does not understand German Baroque music (what does it mean
to 'understand' a piece of music?) Supposing Gardiner made
very bad recordings of German music , how would that mean
that he failed to 'understand' it?
>Any sacred piece conducted by Mr. Gardiner sounds technically
> brilliant but he quite often misses the spirit.
>
I'm not a great fan of Gardiner, but how could one say that
'misses the spirit.' What does that mean?
If you have ever compared recordings of the Consort of Musicke of
> Monteverdi madrigals with those by Concerto Italiano you get about the
> same issue. You can easily understand why Emma Kirkby is called 'the
> singing fridge'. The Consort of Musicke recordings are technically
> brilliant, but emotionally they are stone cold.
>
Does music express emotion:? Thats a controversial issue
in aesthetics.
.
> A recent example is the recording of Carmen by Anne-Sofie van Otter
> singing Carmen. She shouldn't have done that: She doesn't understand
> the Spanish temperament, and she isn't a very charismatic person, both
> virtues which are required to successfully sing Carmen.
>
Her Carmen was very well reviewed. I haven't heard it so
I cannot comment. How would her failure to understand the
Spanish temperament ( is there such a thing? What is it?)
impact on her performance? Bizet was French. Did he
understand the Spanish temprament? How could one
tell?
Jim H
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
> I cannot comment. How would her failure to understand the
> Spanish temperament ( is there such a thing? What is it?)
> impact on her performance? Bizet was French. Did he
> understand the Spanish temprament? How could one
> tell?
And let me add that Carmen has little to do with Spanish music...
Sybrand Bakker
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:40:18 +0100, "Buridan"
<j...@nospamma.humph65.fsworld.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Sybrand Bakker" wrote in message
>news:qqkrgv8sh2cjhh29o...@4ax.com...
>
>> Also there is the example of Mr. John Eliot Gardiner, who will never
>> understand German sacred baroque music, simply because the Anglican
>> Church has a completely different character from the German Lutheran
>> Church.
>>
>I don't follow the argument here. Assuming that one accepts that
>the Anglican Church has a different 'character' ( its not really clear
>what this means btw), why should it follow that Gardiner
>does not understand German Baroque music (what does it mean
>to 'understand' a piece of music?) Supposing Gardiner made
>very bad recordings of German music , how would that mean
>that he failed to 'understand' it?
It is a pity I don't recall the exact words of Mr. Gardiner, but I
have seen a documentary of Mr. Gardiner rehearsing a Bach cantata,
where he was making comments on the work in rehearsal that clearly
showed his lack of knowlegde of Lutheran Theology of the time.
You are now probably going to ask 'Do you need to underatand/have a
grasp what Lutheran Theology is about to perform Bach's music
correctly' to which I will answer: YES, OF COURSE. Bach didn't compose
'universal' music, he composed music for a specific location in a
specific era. His music became universal in the 19th century.
>
>>Any sacred piece conducted by Mr. Gardiner sounds technically
>> brilliant but he quite often misses the spirit.
>>
>I'm not a great fan of Gardiner, but how could one say that
>'misses the spirit.' What does that mean?
>
It means that with Mr. Gardiner pieces which are supposedly expressing
sad emotions (which can be told from the text) are almost invariably
performed too fast. His recording of the Actus Tragicus, BWV 106 is a
case in point: it sounds like the burial service is behind of schedule
and they really need to hurry to get the deceased to his grave on
time.
>
> If you have ever compared recordings of the Consort of Musicke of
>> Monteverdi madrigals with those by Concerto Italiano you get about the
>> same issue. You can easily understand why Emma Kirkby is called 'the
>> singing fridge'. The Consort of Musicke recordings are technically
>> brilliant, but emotionally they are stone cold.
>>
>Does music express emotion:? Thats a controversial issue
>in aesthetics.
>
>.
In the 17th and 18th century it wasn't a controversial issue. Music
oughts to express 'Affekte', and the purpose of the music was to bring
the hearer in the emotional state of the text.
>> A recent example is the recording of Carmen by Anne-Sofie van Otter
>> singing Carmen. She shouldn't have done that: She doesn't understand
>> the Spanish temperament, and she isn't a very charismatic person, both
>> virtues which are required to successfully sing Carmen.
>>
>Her Carmen was very well reviewed.
Maybe in England or the US, British recordings are invariably very
well reviewed in the UK. Strange thing isn't it. The review in the
Dutch magazin Luister wasn't very favorable.
I haven't heard it so
>I cannot comment. How would her failure to understand the
>Spanish temperament ( is there such a thing? What is it?)
>impact on her performance? Bizet was French. Did he
>understand the Spanish temprament? How could one
>tell?
>
She performed in the Habanera in the concert where she received the
Edison award for her livetime achievement (which is a strange thing
because I suspect she will sing some 20 more years)
It didn't move me at all, and I know the Habanera as a very exuberant
piece.
>Jim H
>
Sybrand Bakker
Owk28
>You are now probably going to ask 'Do you need to underatand/have a
>grasp what Lutheran Theology is about to perform Bach's music
>correctly' to which I will answer: YES, OF COURSE. Bach didn't compose
>'universal' music, he composed music for a specific location in a
>specific era. His music became universal in the 19th century.
>
Of course, this is absolutely right - though I think the use of the word
"correctly" implies a rather narrow range of possibilities. Is there just one
"correct" way, or is an understanding of Lutheran theology rather an invaluable
intellectual precursor to a performance which might have something in common
with Bach's own performances?
>
>> If you have ever compared recordings of the Consort of Musicke of
>>> Monteverdi madrigals with those by Concerto Italiano you get about the
>>> same issue. You can easily understand why Emma Kirkby is called 'the
>>> singing fridge'. The Consort of Musicke recordings are technically
>>> brilliant, but emotionally they are stone cold.
>>>
>>Does music express emotion:? Thats a controversial issue
>>in aesthetics.
>>
>>.
>In the 17th and 18th century it wasn't a controversial issue. Music
>oughts to express 'Affekte', and the purpose of the music was to bring
>the hearer in the emotional state of the text.
>
Yes. But there is a distinction between "arousing an emotional state in the
listener" and "expressing emotion", the latter being closer to a personal,
romantic approach. Not that this should ever justify "cold" performances - I
just mean that our evaluation of a performance as "emotional" may not be the
same as an 18th century evaluation.
>>> A recent example is the recording of Carmen by Anne-Sofie van Otter
>>> singing Carmen. She shouldn't have done that: She doesn't understand
>>> the Spanish temperament, and she isn't a very charismatic person, both
>>> virtues which are required to successfully sing Carmen.
>>>
>>Her Carmen was very well reviewed.
>Maybe in England or the US, British recordings are invariably very
>well reviewed in the UK. Strange thing isn't it. The review in the
>Dutch magazin Luister wasn't very favorable.
>
>
British recordings are not invariably very well reviewd in the UK. Sometimes
they are and sometimes not. There are differing opinions in different UK
journals, too, as you might expect.
regards,
Oliver Webber
Zephyrus
"English" interpretaion of Gardiner?
Z
Sybrand Bakker <sybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ocg3hv0r8o4oq0bg3...@4ax.com>...
Terry Simmons
zephy...@hotmail.com (Zephyrus) wrote:
> Whose interpretation do you consider a good alternitive to the
> "English" interpretaion of Gardiner?
>
Obviously Š the Nigel Rogers/Charles Medlam, on EMI!
--
Cheers!
Terry
Zephyrus
> In article <9b4dcfef.03071...@posting.google.com>,
> zephy...@hotmail.com (Zephyrus) wrote:
>
> > Whose interpretation do you consider a good alternitive to the
> > "English" interpretaion of Gardiner?
> >
>
Actually I was talking about the Bach...
But Monteverdi works.
Could anyone tell a young music student a better Bach than Gardiner's?
Z
Flavio "Senesino" FBG
I haven't heard Gardiner's Bach. Herreweghe is nice...
Flavio
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
>Could anyone tell a young music student a better Bach than Gardiner's?
>
>Z
You can't be serious about that.
I would prefer the old Leonhardt/Harnoncourt (and especially the
Leonhardt) recordings of the cantatas above any Gardiner recording.
I would prefer Herreweghe above Gardiner.
And, apart from the fact they didn't record yet that much Bach, any
recording of Cantus Coelln.
I'm not too fond of Suzuki on BIS, and I have very mixed feelings
about Koopman, but I would still prefer them above Gardiner
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
>Whose interpretation do you consider a good alternitive to the
>"English" interpretaion of Gardiner?
>
>Z
Leonhardt did record the Actus Tragicus
The Koopman is a big disappointment
The best recorded probably is the Cantus Coelln on Harmonia Mundi
France.
The best -not recorded- is the one I heard in an Utrecht church during
the Holland Festival for Early Music
Benko Pal
Parrott.
p
Buridan
"Sybrand Bakker" <sybr...@yahoo.com> wrote
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:40:18 +0100, "Buridan"
> >"Sybrand Bakker" wrote in message
> >news:qqkrgv8sh2cjhh29o...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> Also there is the example of Mr. John Eliot Gardiner, who will never
> >> understand German sacred baroque music, simply because the Anglican
> >> Church has a completely different character from the German Lutheran
> >> Church.
> >>
> >I don't follow the argument here. Assuming that one accepts that
> >the Anglican Church has a different 'character' ( its not really clear
> >what this means btw), why should it follow that Gardiner
> >does not understand German Baroque music (what does it mean
> >to 'understand' a piece of music?) Supposing Gardiner made
> >very bad recordings of German music , how would that mean
> >that he failed to 'understand' it?
>
> It is a pity I don't recall the exact words of Mr. Gardiner, but I
> have seen a documentary of Mr. Gardiner rehearsing a Bach cantata,
> where he was making comments on the work in rehearsal that clearly
> showed his lack of knowlegde of Lutheran Theology of the time.
> You are now probably going to ask 'Do you need to underatand/have a
> grasp what Lutheran Theology is about to perform Bach's music
> correctly' to which I will answer: YES, OF COURSE. Bach didn't compose
> 'universal' music, he composed music for a specific location in a
> specific era. His music became universal in the 19th century.
>
That Bach composed for a specific location may be true. However,
from that it does not follow that to perform his music successfully, one
must understand Lutheran theology.
> >>Any sacred piece conducted by Mr. Gardiner sounds technically
> >> brilliant but he quite often misses the spirit.
> >>
> >I'm not a great fan of Gardiner, but how could one say that
> >'misses the spirit.' What does that mean?
> >
>
> It means that with Mr. Gardiner pieces which are supposedly expressing
> sad emotions (which can be told from the text) are almost invariably
> performed too fast. His recording of the Actus Tragicus, BWV 106 is a
> case in point: it sounds like the burial service is behind of schedule
> and they really need to hurry to get the deceased to his grave on
> time.
>
The whole issue of whether music 'expresses' emotions is
problematic in musical aesthetics. If you and I listen to
a piece of music and you say it is sad, whereas I say it
is cheerful, who is right? How does one decide?
> > If you have ever compared recordings of the Consort of Musicke of
> >> Monteverdi madrigals with those by Concerto Italiano you get about the
> >> same issue. You can easily understand why Emma Kirkby is called 'the
> >> singing fridge'. The Consort of Musicke recordings are technically
> >> brilliant, but emotionally they are stone cold.
> >>
> >Does music express emotion:? Thats a controversial issue
> >in aesthetics.
> >
> >.
> In the 17th and 18th century it wasn't a controversial issue. Music
> oughts to express 'Affekte', and the purpose of the music was to bring
> the hearer in the emotional state of the text.
>
But that is not pertinent. If one allows that the aesthetic theories
then prevalent held that music expressed emotion, that does
not mean that it does.
>
> >> A recent example is the recording of Carmen by Anne-Sofie van Otter
> >> singing Carmen. She shouldn't have done that: She doesn't understand
> >> the Spanish temperament, and she isn't a very charismatic person, both
> >> virtues which are required to successfully sing Carmen.
> >>
> >Her Carmen was very well reviewed.
> Maybe in England or the US, British recordings are invariably very
> well reviewed in the UK. Strange thing isn't it. The review in the
> Dutch magazin Luister wasn't very favorable.
>
An ad hominem argument I think!
Jim H
cbhbklyn
Terry Simmons
> tlst...@tpgi.com.au (Terry Simmons) wrote in message
news:<tlsterry-180...@war-56k-087.tpgi.com.au>...
> > In article <9b4dcfef.03071...@posting.google.com>,
> > zephy...@hotmail.com (Zephyrus) wrote:
> >
> > > Whose interpretation do you consider a good alternitive to the
> > > "English" interpretaion of Gardiner?
> > >
> >
> > Obviously ? the Nigel Rogers/Charles Medlam, on EMI!
>
> Actually I was talking about the Bach...
>
Then why not change the topic in the header?
--
Cheers!
Terry