Marsyas or Fehr or Huber recorders

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Red Belly

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Feb 26, 2003, 1:22:36 PM2/26/03
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Has anyone tried these makers instruments?

If so, any thoughts re. quality, value for money etc compared to the more
widely used and available Moeck/Mollenhauer instruments?

I know it's all a matter of opinion but it's opinions I'm after!

rb

Sybrand Bakker

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Feb 26, 2003, 3:48:32 PM2/26/03
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I once owned a Fehr. It was very easy to overblow it and the overall
quality was. I'd better keep silent about that. Once I changed teacher
she forced me to get rid of it as quick as I could, and except for the
money I didn't regret that. I switched to a Moeck which I still have.

Regards

Sybrand Bakker

Bernard Hill

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Feb 26, 2003, 5:35:16 PM2/26/03
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In article <b3j3vb$1m9ofr$1...@ID-135841.news.dfncis.de>, Red Belly
<redb...@oceanfree.net> writes

Unless you're a real professional the best is Yamaha plastic, especially
the Tenor. I know some pros who use these by preference.


Bernard Hill
Selkirk, Scotland

Victor Eijkhout

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Feb 26, 2003, 7:17:52 PM2/26/03
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Bernard Hill <ber...@braeburn.co.uk> wrote:

> >Has anyone tried these makers instruments?

Yep. Good stuff. While you're trying out recorders, also take a look at
Kung. I bought a couple of those a while ago, and liked them better than
Fehr and Huber. Never seen Marsyas.

> >If so, any thoughts re. quality, value for money etc compared to the more
> >widely used and available Moeck/Mollenhauer instruments?

Those used to be pretty good, 20 years ago when there was nothing
better. Right now, go for Huber or Kung.

> Unless you're a real professional the best is Yamaha plastic, especially
> the Tenor. I know some pros who use these by preference.

Even for amateurs wood is a good choice. It doesn't clog up like plastic
does. And the sound has more character.

That said, you pay a factor of 10 more before you get that character.
Pros who specialise in ancient music will for instance have 415
instruments in wood, nd 440 ones in plastic.

V.

Peter T. Daniels

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Feb 26, 2003, 7:41:35 PM2/26/03
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That's a lot of instruments. How many for each size?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net

Rebecca Smith

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Feb 26, 2003, 7:54:32 PM2/26/03
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I bought a second hand mollenhauer rosewood denner from Mollenhauer's
website - it was a great buy and a very beautiful instrument. I think I
paid $150 Australian and they're about $600 new.

Rebecca


"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3E5D5E...@worldnet.att.net...

Dr.Matt

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Feb 26, 2003, 8:27:24 PM2/26/03
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In article <3E5D5E...@worldnet.att.net>,

1.


--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a trip to the bathroom."

Victor Eijkhout

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Feb 26, 2003, 8:40:39 PM2/26/03
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Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> > That said, you pay a factor of 10 more before you get that character.
> > Pros who specialise in ancient music will for instance have 415
> > instruments in wood, nd 440 ones in plastic.
>
> That's a lot of instruments. How many for each size?

It hertz to comtemplate that.

V.

Dr.Matt

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Feb 26, 2003, 9:41:14 PM2/26/03
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The Aulos F bass is pretty good, and fully chromatic--but the F# key
is kinda funky, based on clarinet fingering rather than recorder...

Malcolm Tattersall

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Feb 27, 2003, 2:55:32 AM2/27/03
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"Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
>
> Victor Eijkhout wrote:
> >
/snip/


> >
> > That said, you pay a factor of 10 more before you get that character.
> > Pros who specialise in ancient music will for instance have 415
> > instruments in wood, nd 440 ones in plastic.
>
> That's a lot of instruments. How many for each size?
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net

A few unconnected comments on these points:
1. That price difference is about right. IMO the best plasic recorders
are better (sound-wise, if not aesthetically) than any wooden recorders
below the Moeck Rotenburg level of good factory made instruments. Lots
of reasons for that, but the main one is that plastic is much easier to
shape to close tolerances.
2. AFAIK (and I'd love to be proven wrong) there is no such thing as a
415 plastic recorder.
3. A typical flautist will have no more than one or two instruments. A
typical recorder player will have at least half a dozen and often more
like twenty: one of each size from sopranino to bass at A440 and one or
two sizes at A415 (all in baroque style), maybe a couple of renaissance
(wide-bore) style instruments, and quite likely a 'spare' alto or two;
and many will also play related instruments such as baroque or modern
flute, tin whistle .... it can go on for ever. Expensive, but fun :)

Malcolm Tattersall

Laura Conrad

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Feb 27, 2003, 6:59:45 AM2/27/03
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>>>>> "Malcolm" == Malcolm Tattersall <malc...@bigpond.com> writes:

Malcolm> 3. A typical flautist will have no more than one or two
Malcolm> instruments. A
Malcolm> typical recorder player will have at least half a dozen
Malcolm> and often more like twenty: one of each size from
Malcolm> sopranino to bass at A440 and one or two sizes at A415
Malcolm> (all in baroque style), maybe a couple of renaissance
Malcolm> (wide-bore) style instruments, and quite likely a 'spare'
Malcolm> alto or two; and many will also play related instruments
Malcolm> such as baroque or modern flute, tin whistle .... it can
Malcolm> go on for ever. Expensive, but fun :)

Cheap compared with what violinists have to spend for one instrument.
Of the 20, several will be plastic and cost under $100 or for the
smaller sizes even under $10. Some of the others will be over $1000,
but very few will be over $2000.

--
Laura (mailto:lco...@laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139


Jeffrey Quick

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Feb 27, 2003, 10:12:04 AM2/27/03
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In article <1fr05ap.17y9bo819n7bx5N%vic...@eijkhout.net>,
vic...@eijkhout.net (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:

>
> Even for amateurs wood is a good choice. It doesn't clog up like plastic
> does. And the sound has more character.

Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
plastic, and you're good to go.

As for "character", I find that plastic has just as much character...but
I like the character of wood better. The color of individual notes is
less variable on plastic, which may be what you mean. But then, that's
what modern instrument making is about. 'Tain't authentic, but it's
arguably musical.

Victor Eijkhout

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Feb 27, 2003, 10:39:50 AM2/27/03
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Jeffrey Quick <j...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:

> > Even for amateurs wood is a good choice. It doesn't clog up like plastic
> > does. And the sound has more character.
>
> Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
> plastic, and you're good to go.

Good to go for another minute.

If you break in a wooden recorder carefully, it doesn't clog up for
quite a while. My favourite alto is ancient, and I can play it for hours
straight.

But it's all a matter of taste. Plastic instruments are reliable, in
tone and workmanship, but their sound is not very individual. In wood
you have zillions of makers each with different woods and styles, so you
can find something to your taste.

V.

Dr.Matt

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Feb 27, 2003, 10:52:29 AM2/27/03
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In article <jaq-3BB24E.1...@eeyore.ins.cwru.edu>,

Jeffrey Quick <j...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>In article <1fr05ap.17y9bo819n7bx5N%vic...@eijkhout.net>,
> vic...@eijkhout.net (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:
>
>>
>> Even for amateurs wood is a good choice. It doesn't clog up like plastic
>> does. And the sound has more character.
>
>Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
>plastic, and you're good to go.

I learned a little bit about this by asking around. From time to time
wood needs treatment--I think linseed oil is recommended. That helps
keep the humidity inside the wood more constant. Once you get that
oil-based barrier in place, wood doesn't expand as it clogs. But it
still clogs.

Ertugrul iNANC

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Feb 27, 2003, 3:58:08 PM2/27/03
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"Malcolm Tattersall" <malc...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3E5DC471...@bigpond.com...

> 3. A typical flautist will have no more than one or two instruments. A
> typical recorder player will have at least half a dozen and often more
> like twenty: one of each size from sopranino to bass at A440 and one or
> two sizes at A415 (all in baroque style), maybe a couple of renaissance
> (wide-bore) style instruments, and quite likely a 'spare' alto or two;
> and many will also play related instruments such as baroque or modern
> flute, tin whistle .... it can go on for ever. Expensive, but fun :)

LOL! A typical Ney player will purchase a new instrument in two or three
months even after completing the set of *at least* 5 sizes. :) I have only
one yet, and a crappiest plastic soprano recorder. :-|

Ertugrul


--
E-mail to ertugrulinancATixir.com
Replace "AT" with "@"
Messages sent to other addresses will be ignored.


Steve

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Feb 27, 2003, 10:07:08 PM2/27/03
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"Red Belly" <redb...@oceanfree.net> wrote in message news:<b3j3vb$1m9ofr$1...@ID-135841.news.dfncis.de>...

I've tried many, many recorders over the years, and maybe you might
find my advice interesting at the very least.

Wooden recorders fall into several categories:
1. Modern. Strong volume instruments like the Dolmetsch, but the bore
and voicing is dissimilar from a true baroque recorder, which produces
sound more easily.
2. Wooden assembly-line copies. Moeck falls into the category --
attractive instruments and good worksmanship, but they lack
undercutting of the keyholes (which makes it possible to produce more
volume without bending the tone). Sound and response is truly baroque,
unlike the Dolmetsch.
3. Wooden copies. Whether based on an original design or a composite
of baroque designs, these tend to produce sound easily and flexibly.
The holes are deeply undercut and carefully voiced. Can vary
considerably from instrument to instrument, depending on the maker.
4. Plastic baroque recorders. Voiced like the wooden assembly-line
copies, and play like true baroque instruments.

If I were to choose between a Moeck (at between $750 to $1100) and a
fine plastic alto like the Zen On ($50 to $60), I'd choose the latter.
(The Zen On plastic alto was made with the participation of the
esteemed maker Friedrich von Huene based on an original by Bressan --
the same kind of recorder Franz Breuggen played on most of his classic
recordings. And it looks great!) The sound and response of the Moeck
is not significantly better than an Zen On, at many, many times the
cost.

The only disadvantages to plastic are that they can be "blown out"
after several years -- which is unlikely to happen to a Moeck. On the
other hand, some friends have reported to me that the Moeck windway
gets a little clogged sometimes.

The Mollenhauer recorder after Denner, which retails between $250-$350
or so, is not unlike the Moeck in general design, though considerably
cheaper. I've never played one of these recorders. Fehr is said to
make very fine instruments.

If I were in the market for a wooden instrument, I'd save my money and
invest in the premium makers who base their instruments on specific
baroque originals. I own instruments by Rod Cameron and the Prescott
Workshop, and am very impressed by their quality. Many foreign makers
make equally fine instruments.

Yvonne & Norman Rowe

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Feb 27, 2003, 10:49:45 PM2/27/03
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FWIW, our collection includes a plastic Aulos garkleine, two pearwood
Mollenhauer sopraninos (one with single holes, one with double holes), one
pearwood and one palisander Mollenhauer soprano, one pearwood and one osso
Mollenhauer alto, two pearwood Mollenhauer tenors (one with C# key, one
without), a pearwood Mollenhauer bass, and a pearwood Mollenhauer great
bass. All are A=440, all Baroque style. Eventually we may add some
Renaissance instruments and things like krumhorns, rackets, shawms,
dulcians, cornetti, and/or sackbuts, but other things are higher up on the
priority list right now (like a new euphonium and a rebuilt engine for our
car).

Norm

"Malcolm Tattersall" <malc...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3E5DC471...@bigpond.com...

[snip]

Eric Lucas

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Feb 28, 2003, 12:28:37 AM2/28/03
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"Jeffrey Quick" <j...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:jaq-3BB24E.1...@eeyore.ins.cwru.edu...

> In article <1fr05ap.17y9bo819n7bx5N%vic...@eijkhout.net>,
> vic...@eijkhout.net (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:
>
> >
> > Even for amateurs wood is a good choice. It doesn't clog up like plastic
> > does. And the sound has more character.
>
> Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
> plastic, and you're good to go.

Strongly disagree. Plastic keeps clogging as you keep playing it, just as
much as wood does once its waterlogged. Difference is that wood is much
slower to waterlog and clog the first time, and even when it does, a short
break in playing allows the water to soak further into the block, meaning it
is once again fairly slow to clog. By the way, you do know you're supposed
to *suck* the moisture out of the windway, not blow, right...??? You do the
lip no favors by waterlogging it with moisture blown out of the windway--or
by impregnating it with your skin oils if you use your finger to prevent it
playing when you blast the moisture out.

> As for "character", I find that plastic has just as much character...but
> I like the character of wood better. The color of individual notes is
> less variable on plastic, which may be what you mean.

The wooden recorders I have, have a much richer series of overtones than the
plastic. The plastic instruments sound flat and characterless by
comparison. I'm by no means anything approaching a pro, but I've had others
comment that my wooden recorders sound better on the occasion when I happen
to play in public. That said, plastic is perfectly acceptable if it fits
your budget better. If you can afford wood, and you choose wisely, I think
you'll find the investment worthwhile. Of course, choosing wisely is the
key. With wood, this requires that you try the instrument out before you
buy. Mail order really just doesn't cut it for wood, unless you're very
lucky. With plastic, you can buy just about any old instrument and it will
be essentially the same as any other instrument made using the same mold.

Eric Lucas


Eric Lucas

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Feb 28, 2003, 12:32:57 AM2/28/03
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"Dr.Matt" <fie...@robotron.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:1vq7a.1533$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu...

> In article <jaq-3BB24E.1...@eeyore.ins.cwru.edu>,
> Jeffrey Quick <j...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
> >In article <1fr05ap.17y9bo819n7bx5N%vic...@eijkhout.net>,
> > vic...@eijkhout.net (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Even for amateurs wood is a good choice. It doesn't clog up like
plastic
> >> does. And the sound has more character.
> >
> >Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
> >plastic, and you're good to go.
>
> I learned a little bit about this by asking around. From time to time
> wood needs treatment--I think linseed oil is recommended. That helps
> keep the humidity inside the wood more constant. Once you get that
> oil-based barrier in place, wood doesn't expand as it clogs. But it
> still clogs.

You're talking about two *completely* unrelated phenomena--or at least you
should be. Clogging happens when droplets of liquid water condense in the
windway--and oil should never, never, never--ever--let me say it again,
EVER--contact the windway, especially the block, one of whose main purposes
is to absorb moisture. The bore should be oiled, and this, with proper
breaking in, will minimize the expansion/contraction of the bore due to
changes in humidity before, during and after playing, including cracks that
this expansion can cause. This has nothing to do with clogging.

Eric Lucas


Victor Eijkhout

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Feb 28, 2003, 1:24:24 AM2/28/03
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Eric Lucas <eal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> oil should never, never, never--ever--let me say it again,
> EVER--contact the windway

What's in "anti-condensation" products that recorder shops sell?

V.

Dr.Matt

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Feb 28, 2003, 1:59:10 AM2/28/03
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In article <9sC7a.4015$Uy4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Eric Lucas <eal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>

>>
>> Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
>> plastic, and you're good to go.
>
>Strongly disagree. Plastic keeps clogging as you keep playing it, just as
>much as wood does once its waterlogged.

Plastic doesn't waterlog.

Dr.Matt

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Feb 28, 2003, 2:09:55 AM2/28/03
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The purpose of the block is to provide optimal airflow for a
knife-effect (hey, don't look at me, that's what acousticians call it)
whistle to start the barrel resonating. This shape of tube is
notoriously difficult to cut from wood in one piece. Any
water-absorption properties of the block are secondary to
that. Clogging occurs when the airstream cannot be directed at the
knife-edge.
In plastic recorders, the excess moisture which causes clogging
can be expelled into the barrel or sucked back into the player's mouth
(the former is more sanitary). In wooden recorders with an untreated
block, the excess moisture is in the block and the instrument is clogged
by the expanded block itself, and takes several hours to unclog.
How long it takes before the initial clogging appears is a different
matter, and depends not only on the materials but on the engineering of
the airstream.

Ken Moore

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Feb 28, 2003, 3:38:46 AM2/28/03
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In article <7XD7a.1568$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu>, Dr.Matt <fields@ti
mepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> writes

> In plastic recorders, the excess moisture which causes clogging
>can be expelled into the barrel or sucked back into the player's mouth
>(the former is more sanitary).

My favourite Baroque alto (a wooden Adège) clogs and has to be cleared
by sucking. I have been doing this for about 15 years without noticing
any adverse effects, but I never lend this one. Also, wood has
antibiotic properties, which plastic does not.

--
Ken Moore
K.C....@reading.ac.uk
pg composition student, University of Reading

Ken Moore

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Feb 28, 2003, 3:44:05 AM2/28/03
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In article <9sC7a.4015$Uy4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Eric Lucas <eal...@worldnet.att.net> writes

>With wood, this requires that you try the instrument out before you
>buy. Mail order really just doesn't cut it for wood, unless you're very
>lucky.

I bought two second-hand Hopf recorders from the Early Music Shop on
their excellent "return if not satisfied" mail order terms (of about six
years ago: I don't know if they have changed). One had a key problem,
which they rectified with no argument, and I still play both regularly.

harrison

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Feb 28, 2003, 8:14:12 AM2/28/03
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"Victor Eijkhout" <vic...@eijkhout.net> wrote in message
news:1fr2h5g.b789qy1t6g3uoN%vic...@eijkhout.net...

The anti-condensation fluid is a mild detergent, used to break up water
drops. You can make your own by diluting dish detergent, maybe 100:1. It
does work. It is better to warm up the instrument first and keep it in good
paying order by playing it.

Dave


Dr.Matt

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Feb 28, 2003, 7:33:49 AM2/28/03
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In article <q1lPMLAW...@mooremusic.org.uk>,

Ken Moore <k...@mooremusic.org.uk> wrote:
>any adverse effects, but I never lend this one. Also, wood has
>antibiotic properties, which plastic does not.

Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?

Peter T. Daniels

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Feb 28, 2003, 9:36:07 AM2/28/03
to
Eric Lucas wrote:
>
> "Jeffrey Quick" <j...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
> news:jaq-3BB24E.1...@eeyore.ins.cwru.edu...
> > In article <1fr05ap.17y9bo819n7bx5N%vic...@eijkhout.net>,
> > vic...@eijkhout.net (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Even for amateurs wood is a good choice. It doesn't clog up like plastic
> > > does. And the sound has more character.
> >
> > Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
> > plastic, and you're good to go.
>
> Strongly disagree. Plastic keeps clogging as you keep playing it, just as
> much as wood does once its waterlogged. Difference is that wood is much
> slower to waterlog and clog the first time, and even when it does, a short
> break in playing allows the water to soak further into the block, meaning it
> is once again fairly slow to clog. By the way, you do know you're supposed
> to *suck* the moisture out of the windway, not blow, right...??? You do the
> lip no favors by waterlogging it with moisture blown out of the windway--or
> by impregnating it with your skin oils if you use your finger to prevent it
> playing when you blast the moisture out.

Add recorder-playing to Bismarck's list that included sausages and
legislation.

Peter T. Daniels

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Feb 28, 2003, 9:38:29 AM2/28/03
to
Dr.Matt wrote:
>
> In article <q1lPMLAW...@mooremusic.org.uk>,
> Ken Moore <k...@mooremusic.org.uk> wrote:
> >any adverse effects, but I never lend this one. Also, wood has
> >antibiotic properties, which plastic does not.
>
> Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
> musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?

Perhaps you could make an Art Nouveau sort of swaying recorder from
willow, which is the original source of aspirin ...

Dr.Matt

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Feb 28, 2003, 10:06:39 AM2/28/03
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In article <3E5F74...@worldnet.att.net>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Well, of salicytes... Bavarian Pharmaceuticals (Bayer) is the
original source of aspirin...

>--
>Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net

Peter T. Daniels

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Feb 28, 2003, 10:27:38 AM2/28/03
to
Dr.Matt wrote:
>
> In article <3E5F74...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Dr.Matt wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <q1lPMLAW...@mooremusic.org.uk>,
> >> Ken Moore <k...@mooremusic.org.uk> wrote:
> >> >any adverse effects, but I never lend this one. Also, wood has
> >> >antibiotic properties, which plastic does not.
> >>
> >> Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
> >> musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?
> >
> >Perhaps you could make an Art Nouveau sort of swaying recorder from
> >willow, which is the original source of aspirin ...
>
> Well, of salicytes... Bavarian Pharmaceuticals (Bayer) is the
> original source of aspirin...

We only have to worry about that in Canada.

bogus address

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Feb 28, 2003, 5:45:46 AM2/28/03
to

>> oil should never, never, never--ever--let me say it again,
>> EVER--contact the windway
> What's in "anti-condensation" products that recorder shops sell?

Detergent. Sodium laureth sulfate. Same stuff as photographic
wetting agent and contact lens cleaning solution, more or less.

After seeing what happens to wooden kitchenware that's been washed
a lot this isn't an idea I'm very keen on.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".

MWindi4108

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Feb 28, 2003, 4:13:05 PM2/28/03
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I believe its a mild detergent
Mark Windisch
.

Ken Moore

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Feb 28, 2003, 2:10:42 PM2/28/03
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In article <NGI7a.1572$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu>, Dr.Matt <fields@ms
pacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> writes

>Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
>musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?

Only to say that I read it on a usenet ng, that it was in connection
wind bread boards, IIRC, and that it sounds plausible to me, since trees
need to resist infection (after all if they could copy juvenile hormone,
a mere antibiotic ought to be easy(:-). Varnish would prevent any such
effect, I suspect.

Yvonne & Norman Rowe

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Feb 28, 2003, 10:54:06 PM2/28/03
to
You're not likely to get anything "unsanitary" by sucking in the air, at
least nothing more than what you get while breathing. In fact, by sucking
to clear the windway you accomplish two things: (1) you draw relatively dry
air across the block which helps ever so slightly in correcting the problem
(blowing more moist air from your mouth tends to add more moisture to the
area) whether you're talking a wooden or plastic recorder, and (2) prevents
any accidental "noises" (which players often try to prevent by putting their
fingers onto the fipple which isn't a particularly good idea either).

Norm


"Dr.Matt" <fie...@timepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:7XD7a.1568$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu...

Eric Lucas

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Feb 28, 2003, 11:21:40 PM2/28/03
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"Victor Eijkhout" <vic...@eijkhout.net> wrote in message
news:1fr2h5g.b789qy1t6g3uoN%vic...@eijkhout.net...

As several have astutely pointed out, it is a surfactant, and behaves in
exactly the opposite way that oil does--the detergent is hydrophilic and
makes the water wet the wood so no or few air-disrupting droplets form. The
oil is hydrophobic and makes water bead up into droplets that play heck with
the flow of air through the narrow channel. That's why it's such a
supremely bad idea to oil the windway--and why you shouldn't touch the block
or lip with your finger (which is coated with natural oils) when you try to
remove condensation from the windway.

As to Jack Campin's concerns, the damage to washed wooden knife handles is
more from immersion and heat, and the fact that the detergent tends to wash
away any protective coating that is on the surface of the wood. All of
these mean that the wood becomes *thorougly* soaked with water, and the heat
tends to lead to breakdown of the wood fibers through hydrolysis. Also,
rinsing the detergent-soaked wood then rinses away all of the natural oils
that have been dissolved by the detergent. Mild surfactant, under mild
conditions where the wood isn't immersed or rinsed, is a much different
story. In any case, I never really found Duponol necessary with wood
recorders, precisely because the block is so naturally absorptive. I save
the Duponol for my plastic recorders.

Eric Lucas


Dr.Matt

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Feb 28, 2003, 11:19:11 PM2/28/03
to
In article <68sbeJAy...@mooremusic.org.uk>,

Ken Moore <k...@mooremusic.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <NGI7a.1572$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu>, Dr.Matt <fields@ms
>pacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> writes
>>Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
>>musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?
>
>Only to say that I read it on a usenet ng, that it was in connection
>wind bread boards, IIRC, and that it sounds plausible to me, since trees
>need to resist infection (after all if they could copy juvenile hormone,
>a mere antibiotic ought to be easy(:-). Varnish would prevent any such
>effect, I suspect.

hmmmm... I was aware that certain plants have antibiotic properties
while they're alive, or under specific circumstances... for instance,
at the moment that fresh garlic is cut, an enzymatic reaction releases
alicin is a highly reactive sulphur compound responsible for a considerable
component of garlic's smell and also with some antibiotic properties.
But I hadn't heard of this sort of thing attributed to dry wood.
Cinnamon bark, perhaps...

--
>Ken Moore
>K.C....@reading.ac.uk
>pg composition student, University of Reading

Eric Lucas

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Feb 28, 2003, 11:28:18 PM2/28/03
to

"Dr.Matt" <fie...@timepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:7XD7a.1568$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> The purpose of the block is to provide optimal airflow for a
> knife-effect (hey, don't look at me, that's what acousticians call it)
> whistle to start the barrel resonating. This shape of tube is
> notoriously difficult to cut from wood in one piece. Any
> water-absorption properties of the block are secondary to
> that.

Of course, but there's a very good reason blocks are made from soft, porous
woods like cedar, when the rest of the instrument is made from anything from
maple to african blackwood.

> Clogging occurs when the airstream cannot be directed at the
> knife-edge.
> In plastic recorders, the excess moisture which causes clogging
> can be expelled into the barrel or sucked back into the player's mouth
> (the former is more sanitary). In wooden recorders with an untreated
> block, the excess moisture is in the block and the instrument is clogged
> by the expanded block itself, and takes several hours to unclog.

Not true. I don't get clogging until I've been playing a long time, and it
is invariably associated with actual visible droplets of water. Sucking
these out clears it and it plays fine until more droplets form--which
happens more quickly because the wood has already absorbed all the moisture
it can. I've never had irreversible clogging, even after many hours of
playing, that would inevitably result if swelling of the block were the sole
culprit.

Eric Lucas


Eric Lucas

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Feb 28, 2003, 11:34:24 PM2/28/03
to

"Dr.Matt" <fie...@timepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:2ND7a.1567$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu...

> In article <9sC7a.4015$Uy4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Eric Lucas <eal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
>
> >>
> >> Huh? My experience is that when wood clogs, it stays clogged. Blow out
> >> plastic, and you're good to go.
> >
> >Strongly disagree. Plastic keeps clogging as you keep playing it, just
as
> >much as wood does once its waterlogged.
>
> Plastic doesn't waterlog.

That's my point--plastic doesn't have to waterlog, because it's already
impermeable to water, so it forms wind-disrupting droplets of water almost
from the first moment you start playing it. Wood absorbs lots of water
before it starts forming droplets that cause clogging. Look at it another
way. If water absorption into the block were the problem with clogging,
then detergents like Duponol would only hasten clogging in wooden
instruments, because it makes the wood absorb water faster. However,
Duponol *does* help to slow the onset of clogging in wooden instruments,
because it causes water to wet the wood, forming a uniform sheet rather than
droplets which disrupt airflow. It's just that Duponol isn't as necessary
in wood instruments because the block can absorb lots of water before it
begins forming droplets.

Eric Lucas


Eric Lucas

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Feb 28, 2003, 11:58:05 PM2/28/03
to

"Dr.Matt" <fie...@asteroids.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:3xW7a.5$ET1...@news.itd.umich.edu...

> In article <68sbeJAy...@mooremusic.org.uk>,
> Ken Moore <k...@mooremusic.org.uk> wrote:
> >In article <NGI7a.1572$XR3....@news.itd.umich.edu>, Dr.Matt <fields@ms
> >pacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> writes
> >>Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
> >>musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?
> >
> >Only to say that I read it on a usenet ng, that it was in connection
> >wind bread boards, IIRC, and that it sounds plausible to me, since trees
> >need to resist infection (after all if they could copy juvenile hormone,
> >a mere antibiotic ought to be easy(:-). Varnish would prevent any such
> >effect, I suspect.
>
> hmmmm... I was aware that certain plants have antibiotic properties
> while they're alive, or under specific circumstances... for instance,
> at the moment that fresh garlic is cut, an enzymatic reaction releases
> alicin is a highly reactive sulphur compound responsible for a
considerable
> component of garlic's smell and also with some antibiotic properties.
> But I hadn't heard of this sort of thing attributed to dry wood.
> Cinnamon bark, perhaps...

In fact, I think it must be an urban legend. Wood is very able to absorb
bacteria, and harbor them unharmed for quite a while because it helps
prevent the bacterial cells from drying out and dying. This is why, for
example, it's an absolute must to wash a wooden cutting board used with raw
poultry *very* thoroughly in very hot water...and why it's even better to
use a non-absorptive plastic cutting board for raw poultry...and why I
refuse to reuse chopsticks unless I wash them in my dishwasher, in which the
water gets scaldingly hot.

Eric Lucas


Nicholas S. Lander

unread,
Mar 1, 2003, 4:53:04 AM3/1/03
to
Marsyas recorders are designed by Swiss maker Heinz Amman. They are
manufactured on the computer-driven lathes at Kung but voiced by Christoph
Trescher. They are exceptionally high-quality neo-baroque instruments. Amman
used to work for Fehr but set up independently in 1996. The Marsyas website
(in English, German, Italian) is at

http://www.marsyas-blockfloeten.ch/start.html

The H.C. Fehr recorder-making business has passed out of the family hands in
1958. H.C. Fehr have a sort of website at

http://blockfloeten.theyellowpages.ch/

Huber recorders are of excellent neo-baroque design and made to a high
standard. They are are competitively priced. Their website (in German) is at

http://www.huber-music.ch/

If you are looking for a top quality all-purpose neo-baroque instrument for
general use Marsyas would be a good choice.

Also of excellent value would be Mollenhauer whose Denner range is
excellent. If your focus is the baroque solo and chamber repertoire then
their higher-end Denner TD range is outstanding value both musically and
cost-wise. Their website is at

http://www.mollenhauer.com/

For all but the most enthusiastic of players, Zen-On plastic recorders -
soprano US $60, alto US $98 -- customised by Lee Collins with a wooden shim
on the windway floor represent the best possible value for money. They will
perform as well or better than any of the above. Lee Collins website is at

http://www.leecollins.com

When you feel ready for a craftsman-made instrument you should not neglect
the secondhand market, where there great bargains are to be found. If you
buy through von Huene (Boston, USA), the Early Music Shop (Bradford, UK), or
from Mollenhauer (Fulda, Germany) you won't go far wrong, especially if you
ask them to revoice and service as necessary before sending them to you.

Another path would be to contact craftsman makers who often know of
secondhand instruments from their workshop which are for sale. You will find
comprehensive online databases of recorder makers, retailers (new and
secondhand) via the following URL:

http://www.iinet.net.au/~nickl/makers.html

I hope this is of assistance.

Red Belly

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Mar 1, 2003, 4:20:32 AM3/1/03
to

"Nicholas S. Lander" <ni...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:3e6083b7$0

> I hope this is of assistance.

Thanks a million. That is extremely helpful. I don't live near any dealers
so I'll have to travel some distance or have "on approval" instruments sent,
but your opinions will be most helpful in deciding how to proceed.

rb


bogus address

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Mar 1, 2003, 7:16:31 PM3/1/03
to

> For all but the most enthusiastic of players, Zen-On plastic recorders -
> soprano US $60, alto US $98 -- customised by Lee Collins with a wooden
> shim on the windway floor represent the best possible value for money.

I've got one of those things. I use it quite a lot. It does the
business, in that I can play high and fast on it without gratuitous
clicks and squeaks. But I can't say it inspires any affection; it
has about as much personality as a Mormon missionary.

The unmodified Zen-On has a more individual tone, or at least mine
does. (These are the least consistent mass-produced instruments
of any kind I've ever tried - always try every one in the shop).

bogus address

unread,
Mar 1, 2003, 8:36:08 PM3/1/03
to

>>> Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
>>> musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?
>> Only to say that I read it on a usenet ng, that it was in connection
>> wind bread boards, IIRC, and that it sounds plausible to me, since
>> trees need to resist infection
> In fact, I think it must be an urban legend. Wood is very able to
> absorb bacteria, and harbor them unharmed for quite a while because
> it helps prevent the bacterial cells from drying out and dying.

Wrong. Try a Google search for "bactericidal wooden chopping boards"
and see what you get.


> This is why, for example, it's an absolute must to wash a wooden cutting
> board used with raw poultry *very* thoroughly in very hot water...

Look some way down the list of hits you get for how harsh cleaning
can decrease the bactericidal effect of the wood in fishing boats.


> and why it's even better to use a non-absorptive plastic cutting board
> for raw poultry...

After a few cuts they're not non-absorptive any more. Nice deep crevices
for germs to hide in, unlike wood a chemically inert environment, self-
sealing to stop bleach or air getting at them, ready to open up again the
next time a knife cuts deep enough. Holiday homes for salmonella.

Contrary to what you write above, wood dries out much more effectively
than plastic; the open pores in timber will even out moisture levels to
that of the external environment, given time to equilibrate (that's what
a recorder does). A healed-over cut in a plastic board could retain
water for decades.

And some pathogens form spores, in which case water content is irrelevant.
Germicidal substances like the terpenes in wood are there in part to kill
such beasties off.


> and why I refuse to reuse chopsticks unless I wash them in my dishwasher,
> in which the water gets scaldingly hot.

Use-once wooden chopsticks are a catastrophically non-renewable use of
timber anyway, particularly the way the Japanese abuse them. Look it
up. They may be safer than re-used plastic, but bacteriological safety
is not the only consideration.

Dr.Matt

unread,
Mar 2, 2003, 8:04:33 AM3/2/03
to
In article <10...@purr.demon.co.uk>,

bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> Hm, I've never heard of these antibiotic properties of seasoned
>>>> musical-instrument wood. Can you expand on this?
>>> Only to say that I read it on a usenet ng, that it was in connection
>>> wind bread boards, IIRC, and that it sounds plausible to me, since
>>> trees need to resist infection
>> In fact, I think it must be an urban legend. Wood is very able to
>> absorb bacteria, and harbor them unharmed for quite a while because
>> it helps prevent the bacterial cells from drying out and dying.
>
>Wrong. Try a Google search for "bactericidal wooden chopping boards"
>and see what you get.

I'd rather hear from a public health specialist than from Google, thanks.

Nicholas S. Lander

unread,
Mar 2, 2003, 9:57:10 AM3/2/03
to
As Red Belly, the initiator of this thread wrote, it was opinions he was
after. Jack Campin's comments tempt me to state my opinion more forcefully.

My opinion, backed by some experience as a teacher, performer and perpetual
student of the recorder, is that Lee Collins' "fantastic plastics" perform
very well indeed. At $60 and $98 apiece I am of the view that they really do
represent the best possible value for money. The examples that I have seen,
heard and played have been nicely voiced with a pleasing, vibrant timbre,
good intonation and excellent response. Surely the rest is up to the player.

Nicholas Lander

"bogus address" <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:10...@purr.demon.co.uk...

Red Belly

unread,
Mar 2, 2003, 5:27:08 PM3/2/03
to
I use one of his (Lee Collins) plastic sopranos in my day to day teaching
and I think it's a great instrument. I do marginally prefer my Kobliczeck
Ren soprano and my Dolmetsch rosewood (before the unfortunate "car on a
sunny day incident" about which I will be forever embarrassed! it's that
instrument I'll be replacing) for performance, the question is, is such a
difference worth the extra money? For me, it is if you can afford it and I'm
in the fortunate position of affording it for the first time in my career
thus far! Three times the money won't improve the sound by three times but
it will improve it imho.

rb

"bogus address" <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:10...@purr.demon.co.uk...
>
>

bogus address

unread,
Mar 2, 2003, 5:55:54 PM3/2/03
to

>> Wrong. Try a Google search for "bactericidal wooden chopping boards"
>> and see what you get.
> I'd rather hear from a public health specialist than from Google, thanks.

And where do you think that Google search will take you?

Dr.Matt

unread,
Mar 2, 2003, 11:39:06 PM3/2/03
to
In article <10...@purr.demon.co.uk>,
bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Wrong. Try a Google search for "bactericidal wooden chopping boards"
>>> and see what you get.
>> I'd rather hear from a public health specialist than from Google, thanks.
>
>And where do you think that Google search will take you?

To the unpredictable information on the internet.

mariehelen...@gmail.com

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Aug 2, 2020, 12:35:49 AM8/2/20
to
On Wednesday, 26 February 2003 14:22:36 UTC-4, Red Belly wrote:
> Has anyone tried these makers instruments?
>
> If so, any thoughts re. quality, value for money etc compared to the more
> widely used and available Moeck/Mollenhauer instruments?
>
> I know it's all a matter of opinion but it's opinions I'm after!
>
> rb

Hi everyone!
I know this is a very old conversation, but I wanted to add some information, as I have newly purchased both Moeck Rottenburg and Huber recorders.
I ordered from Thomann, which is a great store, but difficult to deal with if you live in Canada or the US (return shipping is at your cost). a soprano and an alto in Tulipwood, as well as a Tenor in Maracaibo boxwood. The soprano was both beautiful in sound as in appearance; the alto did not sound quite as rich and it looked honestly awful ( their were knots in the wood that made it look as if it were stained, and, when you know you're going to play and look at it every day, it's best to exchange); the tenor sounded very reedy, so I only kept the soprano and returned the two other instruments (at my cost).
I then read and read and read, and finally decided to order two recorders from Huber. More expansive but hand made. I wrote directly to Markus Huber, talked to him on the phone, discussed wood with him (I live mainly in two cities where the humidity is high, and changes a lot, so I decided not to buy European boxwood: too sensitive). I went for Palisander. Though I prefer lighter woods, the sound is astonishing : round, both high and low notes came right away. Astonishing instruments. I can only recommend Huber recorders for those who can afford them; and if you go with Moeck or Mollenhauer, make sure you can try the instrument and return it, if you need too, because they are factory made and some will be great, and others real lemons, unfortunately.
AGAIN : if you can afford it : HUBER : great instruments, all the way!
Enjoy your recorders!
Helene

Ken in Dallas

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Oct 26, 2020, 9:00:52 PM10/26/20
to
Hi Helene, I am currently researching before purchasing a keyless pearwood tenor. Does your Huber have a curved windway? Is your Huber by any chance a bent neck? ...and, as long as I'm pressing you for all you know and think... Do you have any observations from investigating other Tenors. It's so hard not being able to go to the shops and try instruments out. I am though becoming a far better player by much more practice during this Pandemic. What a way to learn. Thanks in advance, Ken
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