Confused

[likeachill...@gmail.com]

I haven't been here in a while, and I'm a little confused.

Are we discussing Bob Dylan or Shabtai Zisel?

Has Dylan ever embraced the Shabtai Zisel publicly? Privately?

Personally, if I had to choose a name I wouldn't choose Shabtai Zisel and I expect that Bob Dylan feels the same way.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Temporary

[Rachel]

oh, hey temp! welcome back!

i thought (reading google groups) that your name was like a chill....something. couldn't figure it out!

rach.

[likeachill...@gmail.com]

Like a chill 'cos I so coool.

[Willie]

Didn't Bob write a song called "Temporary Like A Chillum"?

If someone posed a quiz to match the following songs to their well-known lyrics, I'd fail badly:

Temporary Like Achilles
From a Buick 6
It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry
On the Road Again
Outlaw Blues
Obviously Five Believers

[Will Dockery]

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5, Rachel wrote:

It looked like "like a child" to me at first, which I connected to:

You make love just like a woman... but you break... just like a child..."

:)

[gj]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 11:42:44 -0800 (PST),
likeachill...@gmail.com wrote:

>I haven't been here in a while, and I'm a little confused.
>
>Are we discussing Bob Dylan or Shabtai Zisel?

Bartles and Jaymes, Senior Temp, good to see you. And we're just as
confused, and without a good excuse.

>Has Dylan ever embraced the Shabtai Zisel publicly? Privately?
>
>Personally, if I had to choose a name I wouldn't choose Shabtai Zisel and I expect that Bob Dylan feels the same way.

So does Mr Zimmerman. How many names must a man have?



-GJ 2.0

[Stephan Pickering]

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 11:42:46 AM UTC-8, likeachill...@gmail.com wrote:

Shalom & Erev tov...I read this with sanguine realisation you do NOT know what you are talking about, resorting to Yehu'di baiting. Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva, as he has known his entire life, IS his actual Hebrew name. To me, he has said 'Bob Dylan is a mask'. His grandmother Anna affectionately called him 'Zushi' or 'Zusha', Yiddish variants of 'Zusa'/Zisel. When called to the bimah, to read the Torah/קריאת התורה, he often prefers being called 'Zushi benAvraham'. He reads and speaks fluent Hebrew, speaks some Yiddish still (he was surrounded as a boy with relatives who spoke mostly Yiddish). I have a colour photograph, taken by a friend, of him reading the Torah at a CHaBaD bimah, with תפילין/tefillin, kipah, טָלֵית/ talit. The photograph is the title page of my monograph-in-progress, and, in my chapters, I never call him 'Bob Dylan'. This he does quite regularly. Perhaps you enjoy celebrating in public your ignorance of Yehu'dim with ill-disguised contempt. If you had a creative thought, it would perish from loneliness, i.e. you have never displayed any knowledge of Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan'.
A final request (and, no, an apology from you is hardly solicited): silence yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג

THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva: davening in the musematic dark

[likeachill...@gmail.com]

Glen? Is that you, Glen?

[M. Rick]

> Are we discussing Bob Dylan or Shabtai Zisel?

Shabtai-Zisel is the wine Dylan grows up in Sonora.

[Just Kidding]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 16:06:45 -0800 (PST), Stephan Pickering
<stephanpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 11:42:46 AM UTC-8, likeachill...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I haven't been here in a while, and I'm a little confused.
>>
>> Are we discussing Bob Dylan or Shabtai Zisel?
>>
>> Has Dylan ever embraced the Shabtai Zisel publicly? Privately?
>>
>> Personally, if I had to choose a name I wouldn't choose Shabtai Zisel and I expect that Bob Dylan feels the same way.
>>
>> Of course, I could be wrong.
>>
>> Temporary
>

>Shalom & Erev tov...I read this with sanguine realisation you do NOT know what you are talking about, resorting to Yehu'di baiting. Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva, as he has known his entire life, IS his actual Hebrew name. To me, he has said 'Bob Dylan is a mask'. His grandmother Anna affectionately called him 'Zushi' or 'Zusha', Yiddish variants of 'Zusa'/Zisel. When called to the bimah, to read the Torah/????? ?????, he often prefers being called 'Zushi benAvraham'. He reads and speaks fluent Hebrew, speaks some Yiddish still (he was surrounded as a boy with relatives who spoke mostly Yiddish). I have a colour photograph, taken by a friend, of him reading the Torah at a CHaBaD bimah, with ??????/tefillin, kipah, ??????/ talit. The photograph is the title page of my monograph-in-progress, and, in my chapters, I never call him 'Bob Dylan'. This he does quite regularly. Perhaps you enjoy celebrating in public your ignorance of Yehu'dim with ill-disguised contempt. If you had

>a creative thought, it would perish from loneliness, i.e. you have never displayed any knowledge of Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan'.
>A final request (and, no, an apology from you is hardly solicited): silence yourself.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>STEPHAN PICKERING / ??? ?"? ?? ?????
>Torah ????? Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
> ????? ??? ?? ??????

>
>THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
>
>IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva: davening in the musematic dark

Okay Will....need any more proof that this guy is a nut job??

[M. Rick]

> Shabtai-Zisel is the wine Dylan grows up in Sonora.

I guess that should be Sonoma. Well at least I still remember my freeway exit, otherwise I'd end up in Sonora Mexico.

[Stephan Pickering]

A note for 'Just Kidding', the nationalsozialist in our midst. I am not kidding.

Jan Tomasz Gross, 2001. Neighbors: the destruction of the Jewish community in Jedwabne, Poland (Princeton University Press), 1-261

Jan Tomasz Gross, 2006. Fear: anti-semitism in Poland after Auschwitz (Random House), 1-303

Jan Tomasz Gross & Irene Grudzinska-Gross, 2012. Golden harvest: events at the periphery of the Holocaust (Oxford University Press), 1-135

Reb Gross and his wife are indefatigable researchers into the killing fields of the Kingdom of Night, when your kind gleefully slaughtered us, making a fortune from the 12+ million Yehu'dim murdered. In my monograph's second chapter, I provide a synopsis of their work, linking it to the genocide in Odessa (1905, 1941, 1945, 2014). Shabtai Zisel's grandparents witnessed the slaughters of 1905, causing them to flee, and he grew up learning the full history of 1905, and what transpired to his extended families during the Sho'ah. If you have difficulty reading English with polysyllabic words, perhaps someone can tutor you.

Of course, having been partially raised by a Dachau survivor 246744 (your kind, 'Just Kidding', did not succeed; many of us survived) makes me, in your eyes, a 'nut job'. I know what it makes you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם

Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג

[Just Kidding]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 18:37:41 -0800 (PST), Stephan Pickering
<stephanpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>A note for 'Just Kidding', the nationalsozialist in our midst. I am not kidding.
>
>Jan Tomasz Gross, 2001. Neighbors: the destruction of the Jewish community in Jedwabne, Poland (Princeton University Press), 1-261
>
>Jan Tomasz Gross, 2006. Fear: anti-semitism in Poland after Auschwitz (Random House), 1-303
>
>Jan Tomasz Gross & Irene Grudzinska-Gross, 2012. Golden harvest: events at the periphery of the Holocaust (Oxford University Press), 1-135
>
>Reb Gross and his wife are indefatigable researchers into the killing fields of the Kingdom of Night, when your kind gleefully slaughtered us, making a fortune from the 12+ million Yehu'dim murdered. In my monograph's second chapter, I provide a synopsis of their work, linking it to the genocide in Odessa (1905, 1941, 1945, 2014). Shabtai Zisel's grandparents witnessed the slaughters of 1905, causing them to flee, and he grew up learning the full history of 1905, and what transpired to his extended families during the Sho'ah. If you have difficulty reading English with polysyllabic words, perhaps someone can tutor you.
>
>Of course, having been partially raised by a Dachau survivor 246744 (your kind, 'Just Kidding', did not succeed; many of us survived) makes me, in your eyes, a 'nut job'. I know what it makes you.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>STEPHAN PICKERING / ??? ?"? ?? ?????

>Torah ????? Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
> ????? ??? ?? ??????

>
>THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
>
>IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva: davening in the musematic dark

I've only been a nationalsozialist for a short time so I have no
knowledge of these events of which you speak.

[RichL]

"Just Kidding" <JustK...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1gi2bb5sgunr18q3l...@4ax.com...

I had him killfiled on the first day I saw his posts here.

[Just Kidding]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 23:55:58 -0500, "RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Pickering's or Will's?

[Will Dockery]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 12:35:07 AM UTC-5, Just Kidding wrote:
>
> >I had him killfiled on the first day I saw his posts here.
>
> Pickering's or Will's?

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

:D

[DianeE]

I just want to clarify that the central unifying event in Jewish history is
the exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai. Not the Holocaust.
The Hasidim see it differently but they are not the majority of Jews, in
America or in the world.
DianeE
------------------------
"Stephan Pickering" <stephanpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a67eba68-aeaf-46fa...@googlegroups.com...

A note for 'Just Kidding', the nationalsozialist in our midst. I am not
kidding.

Jan Tomasz Gross, 2001. Neighbors: the destruction of the Jewish community
in Jedwabne, Poland (Princeton University Press), 1-261

Jan Tomasz Gross, 2006. Fear: anti-semitism in Poland after Auschwitz
(Random House), 1-303

Jan Tomasz Gross & Irene Grudzinska-Gross, 2012. Golden harvest: events at
the periphery of the Holocaust (Oxford University Press), 1-135

Reb Gross and his wife are indefatigable researchers into the killing fields
of the Kingdom of Night, when your kind gleefully slaughtered us, making a
fortune from the 12+ million Yehu'dim murdered. In my monograph's second
chapter, I provide a synopsis of their work, linking it to the genocide in
Odessa (1905, 1941, 1945, 2014). Shabtai Zisel's grandparents witnessed the
slaughters of 1905, causing them to flee, and he grew up learning the full
history of 1905, and what transpired to his extended families during the
Sho'ah. If you have difficulty reading English with polysyllabic words,
perhaps someone can tutor you.

Of course, having been partially raised by a Dachau survivor 246744 (your
kind, 'Just Kidding', did not succeed; many of us survived) makes me, in
your eyes, a 'nut job'. I know what it makes you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

STEPHAN PICKERING / ??? ?"? ?? ?????

Torah ????? Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa
Researcher
????? ??? ?? ??????

[Will Dockery]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
> I just want to clarify that the central unifying event in Jewish history is
> the exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai. Not the Holocaust.
> The Hasidim see it differently but they are not the majority of Jews, in
> America or in the world.
> DianeE

But as we know, the majority, or the popular opinion, is not always the correct or legitimate one, sometimes it is simply a case of mob rule, correct, Diane?

"Never Forget."

:)

[likeachill...@gmail.com]

>
> Okay Will....need any more proof that this guy is a nut job??

Four things:

1) It's easy to see why this guy has apparently been kicked out of multiple user groups.

2) It's easy to see that this guy believes anyone who disagrees with him or has the temerity even to question him will be labelled an anti-semite.

3) Strange that he insists on referring to Bob Dylan as Shabbtai Zisel when he renders his own name as Stephan Pickering. Not so strange that he constantly acts (accidentally, of course) like a martyr given his first name.

4) It is pretty obvious from the way he writes that English is not his first language -- so it would be nice to believe that a) he simply doesn't quite understand what is being written or asked of him, and b) he doesn't understand how hyperbolic his reactions are. It would be nice to believe this, but I doubt that it's true. It is much more likely that he is just a pretentious ***hole.

Temporary

[gj]

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 06:36:36 -0500, "DianeE"
<Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:

>I just want to clarify that the central unifying event in Jewish history is
>the exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai. Not the Holocaust.

As a kid, the Exodus was my favorite part of the story.

It seems to be almost accepted now (among the infidels) that Moses was
tripping balls when he saw the bush and chiseled out those tablets.
And didn't he have to do it twice? Breaking the first draft when he
saw the golden bull? Seems I read he was up there for months.

-GJ 2.0

[chris]

sigh.....yep, even being a Christian is apparently anti-Semitic. I've back of from commenting here because I don't like the constant labeling mr. pickering seems to have a taste for. You can't put Bob in a pretty little box and keep him there. I like my Bob multifaceted, confusing, and hard to pin down. I haven't found any references in Chronicles that say "I like ripping off people to make money, I like using others religious beliefs to make money, I like lies and treachery to get my rocks off".
course I'm crazy and delusional....:-)
chris

[RichL]

"Just Kidding" <JustK...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:vb43bb51t32t95rob...@4ax.com...

Pickering's.

[DianeE]

"Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4baf6392-a7c0-4f08...@googlegroups.com...

> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
>> I just want to clarify that the central unifying event in Jewish history
>> is
>> the exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai. Not the Holocaust.
>> The Hasidim see it differently but they are not the majority of Jews, in
>> America or in the world.
>> DianeE
>
> But as we know, the majority, or the popular opinion, is not always the
> correct or legitimate one, sometimes it is simply a case of mob rule,
> correct, Diane?
--------------------

I'm not talking about a "popular opinion" here. I'm talking about 3,000
years of Jewish tradition, history, and canon.

I'm making the point that Hasidim are not mainstream Judaism.

I'm making the point that Stephan does not speak for all Jews any more than
Luis speaks for all Christians.

DianeE

[Stephan Pickering]

Shalom & Boker tov...I read this with a combination of bemusement and surprise. 'Temporary' makes a fetish out of lying and distortion.

#s 1-2 are fabrications. I have been studying Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan''s work seriously since January 1964. # 3 is nonsense. One can, if one wishes, address mme as Chafetz Chayim (many individuals have, and do), and, since 'Temporary' is nnot literate in Hebrew (Mikra or 'modern'), he fails to notice that my signature uses both of my names. The last part of your first sentence, 'Temporary' is a distortion.

The problem with 'Temporary''s # 2 is that he does not know what he is talking about. The phenomenon is that in much of 'Dylan fandom' is the refusal of often illiterate 'fans' to see that they are enmeshed in historiographical phantasies which are easily inferred and predictable.

I chose, some years ago during rabbinic studies, to pursue scholarship rather than becoming a 'pulpit rabbi', primarily due to the fact that I was partially raised by a Dachau survivor 246744, and she passed along to me the use multilinguistic paradigms (I have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th 'language', so Temporary self-annointing deductions are nonsense). To study Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan' requires: 1) a familiarity with Mikra/Talmud/Hekhalot macroforms/Kabbalah/CHaBaD Chassidus; 2) fluency in Hebrew/Aramaic; 3) and how to adjust the extensive Bayesian literature to analyse historiography vs actuasl evidence from Shabtai/'Bob''s mythopoesis. (One person who is quite capable of this has chosen tnot to do so is Jonathan Cott. The Greil Marcuses and Clinton Heylins are useless.)

What I have been doing in my research -- especially in my in-progress 'Bob Dylan' monograph -- is to use Bayesian reconstructions of post-Auschwitz structuralism and mimesis, applying it to textual criticism of his post-1964 compositions.

At one group (based in Europe), I was called in a private message an 'oven dodger' because of my signature, and the 'moderator' banned me for refusing to stop using it. Another 'moderator' at the Steve Hoffman forum in the U.S. did the same, saying my signature 'violated' their 'policies'. The pursuit of legal remedies in both cases is cost prohibitive. My experiences at 'Expecting Rain' are detailed elsewhere, and have been experienced by others. All of these have been documented, and vetted by an attorney; a legal action against a fraudulent forger will be transpiring eventually.

And so, 'Temporary', you are, like some Cyberians I have encountered here, suffering from syphilitic-like dementia. Thus, your # 2 remains excrement. Scholarly dialogue/debate about 'Bob Dylan''s symbols are necessary, and disagreements about meaning/thematics NEVER results in my accusing anyone of being an antisemite. I have encountered antisemitism here, and elsewhere, but do not allow it to interfere with my research.

As a chassidish Yehu'di, it is anatomically impossible for me to be an 'ass' orifice. However, in your case, I ask if, in your case, analretentive should be hyphenated.

*****************************************************
1971A [June] ed., Dylan. A commemoration (Nowels Publications), 63pp Sold for $1.00, 1st printing, quarter-fold format, 11.5" x 14.5"

1971B [July] ed., Dylan. A commemoration (Nowels Publications), 64pp Sold for $2.00, 2nd printing, distributed by Book People. Inside front cover has lengthy statement not in 1st printing. 2nd printing deletes 12 May 1971 Peanuts cartoon about Bob turning 30. Upper part of page 64 lists address for Book People in Berkeley for retail, wholesale, and library distribution, and bottom of page reads: 'coming: Dylan; Existence, Men and Realities'

1971C The Two Tarantulas: a textual comparison (privately published), 45pp SEE BELOW 2015C

1971D [December]. ed., PRAXIS: ONE. Existence, Men and Realities (A No Limit Publication / Nowels Publications), 152pp [inside back cover unnumbered 153] Sold for $2.50, press run of 4000 copies.
Contributing Editors: Scott Sullivan, David Meltzer, Fair View, D.J. Carlile, Ryan Brady, William Biurita

1996. ed., PRAXIS: ONE. Existence, Men and Realities (Desolation Row Promotions), A4 size reproduction. Unauthorised / unseen


************************************
1972 [January]. ed., Dylan. A commemoration (A No Limit Publication / Nowels Publications), 64pp Sold for $2.00, third printing, distributed by Book People.
Top of page 64 reads:
[LINE ONE] 'DYLAN: A COMMEMORATION - A No Limit Publication edited by Stephen Pickering'
[LINE TWO] 'Printed in U.S. by - Nowels Publications, Roble Ave. Menlo Park, Calif.'
[LINE THREE] 'Wholesale Distribution - Book People, 2010 Seventh Avenue, Berkeley, Calif.'
[LINE FOUR] 'Editorial Correspondence 214 Lincoln Street, Santa Cruz, California, 95960'
Bottom of page 64 reads: 'ALSO AVAILABLE FROM NO LIMIT PUBLICATIONS - PRAXIS I; Existence, Men & Realities'

1995 ed., Dylan. A commemoration (Desolation Row Promotions), A4 size reproduction. Unauthorised / unseen

**************************************

1973 [December]. Bob Dylan Tour 1974 (Echo, Echo Limited), 56pp [pp. 57-58 unnumbered]

1975. Bob Dylan Approximately. A Midrash. A Portrait of the Jewish Poet in Search of God (David McKay Company), 208pp [pp. 205-208 unnumbered] Cloth / paper

***************************************

1972-1974 UNPUBLISHED: ed., Aggadah: studies in Bob Dylan & Torah Judaism;

ed., Kavvanah: mystic steps & Dylaneutics;

"Knockin' on heaven's door" & "Billy": a Jewish speculation;

****************************************

1977-1979 UNPUBLISHED: RENALDO & CLARA: a bibliography...

Divrei Torah haBob Dylan v'Shabtai Zisel

ABANDONED: An annotated Bob Dylan concordance I have been, when necessary for my monograph-in-progress, preparing a concordance of major symbols he has utilised, primarily because Steve Michel's effort, while laudable, is quite incomplete

****************************************

2008-2015 UNPUBLISHED, ca. 500pp
Dialects of a synaesthetic heart: poetics for Faline Pickering (23 January 1949-24 August 2008)

2013A [28 May] The singular history of Michael Chabon's The Final Solution. Sherlock Holmes, plus.google.com

2013B [December] Dovid Krafchow: a case of ontological mis/giving + bibliography. JewishViews.com

***************************************

2014A [January] In Platonia, even the pawn must hold a grudge -- necessary sequelae to Dovid Krafchow's Idelatry. Parts I-V + Bibliography. JewishViews.com

2014B [February] Bart Ehrman's haunted, frightened & the twisted reach of sorrow's madness. Parts I-X + Bibliography. JewishViews.com

2014C [March] The rainbow swastika: Elliot Wolfson's effort to deify the compleat nationalsozialist Heidegger (NSDAP 312589, Gau Baden). Parts I-X + Bibliography. JewishViews.com

2014D [June] Infinite internal needles: tangled up in the sectual explicitness of Hekhalot's chotamot. Parts I-VI + Bibliography. JewishViews.com

***************************************

2014-2016 IN PROGRESS

Yosef George Weiss, 10 August 1918-25 August 1969: an annotated bibliography STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם & Joel Rosenberg

**************************************

2014-2016 IN PROGRESS

Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva: davening in the musematic dark

STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם

cover: Efrayim Moshe Lilien (1904), Weiheblatt zum geplanten "Sbornik"
inside frontcover: Shabtai Zisel/Bob Dylan (Reb Allen Ginsberg photograph, 21 May 1990, Tompkins Square Park, East Village, Manhattan)
inside backcover: Shabtai Zisel/Bob Dylan (April/May 1974), The table (oil on canvas, gift to Reb Norman Raeben)
backcover: Shabtai Zisel/Bob Dylan & Chafetz Chayim/Stephan Pickering (Barry Feinstein photograph, 3 January 1974)
title page: Efrayim Moshe Lilien (1903), Der juedische Mai

FOREWORDING

CHAPTER 1. 12 June 1954 -- the reliquary of Bob Dylan/Shabtai Zisel's bar mitzvah
CHAPTER 2. The Sho'ah: re/membering the future(s)
CHAPTER 3. Freeze-Out: new life form for Kabbalahs
CHAPTER 4. Tarantula: Shul Daze in a post-Auschwitz "Judenstil"
CHAPTER 5. Eat The Document: Kabbalah after Dylan, or, the empire writes back
CHAPTER 6. The seferotics of Renaldo & Clara
CHAPTER 7. Masked & Anonymous: the collage of naked shtetls in the soul
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
BIBLIOGRAPHY

2015A Uncorrected page proofs sans illustrations and photographs (with selected bibliographical pages & acknowledgements) of Chapter 1 are on file at The Jacob Rader Marcus Center of the American Jewish Archives, Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati. On 4-5 May 2015, copies were published in Cyberia. In it, one will find detailed information on the Romanian chassidic kabbalist Rav Reuven Maier, Bob/Shabtai's first Kabbalah mentor;

2015B [29 June] an excerpt from Chapter 2 has been published at JewishViews.com and at FaceBook...thoroughly refuting the idea that Shabtai Zisel/Bob Dylan is a natz'ri, based on documented evidence of his deliberate, conscious public teshuvah/repentance (and repudiation of Natz'rut) 20 September 1983, on the plaza before haKotel haMa'aravi in Yerusalaim, under the guidance of his CHaBaD-Lubavitcher mentors...this wonderful event was colour photographed by Sara Dylan, and by Yisra'eli photographer Tzavi Kohen (I am publishing two of his finest colour close-ups);

2015C First privately printed in 1971, The Two TARANTULAs: a textual comparison (45pp), was shared, much to my later regret, at ExpectingRain.com (May 10-12, 15-18, 20, 22-23, 25, 28-29; June 4-5, 8-9, 25, 28; July 4-6), and forms Chapter 4 of my monograph-in-progress (which is derived from 400+ pages of writings and research since 1971).

[DianeE]

"DianeE" <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote in message
news:0pKdnalkOtOX5S_L...@giganews.com...

>
> "Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4baf6392-a7c0-4f08...@googlegroups.com...
>> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
>>> I just want to clarify that the central unifying event in Jewish history
>>> is
>>> the exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai. Not the Holocaust.
>>> The Hasidim see it differently but they are not the majority of Jews, in
>>> America or in the world.
>>> DianeE
>>
>> But as we know, the majority, or the popular opinion, is not always the
>> correct or legitimate one, sometimes it is simply a case of mob rule,
>> correct, Diane?
> --------------------
> I'm not talking about a "popular opinion" here. I'm talking about 3,000
> years of Jewish tradition, history, and canon.
>
> I'm making the point that Hasidim are not mainstream Judaism.

-------------
Bad syntax, sorry. I'm making the point that *Hasidism* *is* not mainstream
Judaism.
--------------

[Stephan Pickering]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 1:58:37 PM UTC-8, DianeE wrote:

> I'm not talking about a "popular opinion" here. I'm talking about 3,000
> years of Jewish tradition, history, and canon.
>
> I'm making the point that Hasidim are not mainstream Judaism.
>
> I'm making the point that Stephan does not speak for all Jews any more than
> Luis speaks for all Christians.
>
> DianeE

Shalom & Erev tov...the problem is not your syntax, but your seemingly deliberate ignorance of Chassidus. There were Chassidim, in the strict sense of the concept, at Sinai 1312 BCE. However, what I have problem with is your babbling about 'mainstream Judaism'. We can set aside the meaningless Greek categorisation of 'Judaism' (nicely analysed in a paper by Daniel Boyarin in 2001, Justin Martyr invents Judaism, Church History 70(3):427-467), and easily recognise that you want to celebrate your eagerness to dismiss currents in post-Sho'ah Yaha'dat. There are two major streams of these currents: CHaBaD-Lubavitch, and the rise of Kohanot among Yehu'dit womanists, i.e. 'priestess'/'goddess' Yehu'dim. The brilliant writer Ka-Tzetnik, in his 1989 Shivitti, writes: 'I shoot up from the launch-pile of skeletons in the tempest of my own cry of Passion'. Noone can speak for 'all Jews', and you can never speak for me. Perhaps you could explore the work of Rav David Weiss Halivni in Breaking the Tablets, where he speaks of the two major events in Yehu'dit histories: 1312 BCE, and 1933-1945, the revelation at Sinai and the revelation at Auschwitz (I am quoting him). Rav Halivni is not a Chassid, but he is a chassid. There is little about your ignorant babbling I do not find incredibly offensive, but I would remind you that 'never again!' is not synonymous with your incessant attitude of 'never mind!'.

[DianeE]

"Stephan Pickering" <stephanpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:b9c9e106-16b0-4ac5...@googlegroups.com...

-------------
I don't *want* to speak for you. I'm just reminding everyone here that
*you* don't speak for the majority of Jews.

My rabbi constantly uses the word "Judaism" in his sermons and d'varim and
he's Ashkenaz, not Greek.

We can work to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, but that
involves supporting the State of Israel, which most of your Hasidic brethren
(notably the Satmars) refuse to do.

DianeE

[Stephan Pickering]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 8:49:22 PM UTC-8, DianeE wrote:
>
> I don't *want* to speak for you. I'm just reminding everyone here that
> *you* don't speak for the majority of Jews.
>
> My rabbi constantly uses the word "Judaism" in his sermons and d'varim and
> he's Ashkenaz, not Greek.
>
> We can work to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, but that
> involves supporting the State of Israel, which most of your Hasidic brethren
> (notably the Satmars) refuse to do.
>
> DianeE

Shalom & Erev tov. We disagree. I totally support Eretz Yisra'el. I am a chassidish Yehu'di who has nothing but contempt for the Satmar chassidism who distort Torah, betrayed Yehu'dim during and after the Sho'ah. They have maintained what one rebbe terms a 'child-rape assembly line'. 'Rabbi' Yo'el Teitelbaum's disgraceful actions during the Sho'ah have been fully described by Menachem Keren Kratz.

[JD Chase]

Certainly agree about supporting Israel, but that doesn't mean that we should unquestioningly and unreservedly support the Israeli government... Many Jews seem to become personally angry and offended when anyone criticizes the harsh policies of the Israeli government, and that is wrong, Imo...

[nate]

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 12:08:06 AM UTC-5, Stephan Pickering wrote:
>
> THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT


You and Poisoned Rose should hook up some time. Then maybe you can advance to Leo K....



- nate

[Will Dockery]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 11:49:22 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
>

> We can work to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, but that
> involves supporting the State of Israel

Yeah, right on, and cue "Neighborhood Bully"... and play it loud, play it f*cking loud.

:)

[Dr_dudley]

copyright extension blues

Bob Dylan - Mixed Up Confusion 76982-5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLffsKKPrU

Larry King introduces Sammy Davis Jr. & Bob Dylan on Chabad Telethon 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpPrvNO8WhE

Talkin' Hava Negeilah Blues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSOZPINSsM4

[likeachill...@gmail.com]

Shalom & Erev tov...the problem is not your syntax, but your seemingly deliberate ignorance of Chassidus.

what I have problem with is your babbling about 'mainstream Judaism'.

There is little about your ignorant babbling I do not find incredibly offensive, but I would remind you that 'never again!' is not synonymous with your incessant attitude of 'never mind!'.

---

Wow! Just wow! This guy isn't a piece of sh*t, mind, he's a hemorrhoid.

QED

Temporary

[Stephan Pickering]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 8:49:22 PM UTC-8, DianeE wrote:

> My rabbi constantly uses the word "Judaism" in his sermons and d'varim and
> he's Ashkenaz, not Greek.
>
> We can work to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, but that
> involves supporting the State of Israel, which most of your Hasidic brethren
> (notably the Satmars) refuse to do.
>
> DianeE

Shalom & Boker tov...we can set aside the anti-Yehu'di screeds of 'nate' and 'temporary', who have a difficult time following words with their fingers, even when moving their lips and sounding the words aloud. Their anti-intellectualism and stupidity cause us, in Cyberia, to wear protective rubber boots. They know nothing of Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan', and, thus, are to be ignored.

I would like to offer the comment that it is irrelevant your rabbi is Ashkenaz and not Greek. You are not familiar with the formation of rabbinic Yaha'dat, and how Greeks defined who we are supposed to be with their semantic pirouettes. The literature is extensive (you might want to seek out the still useful work of R. Saul Lieberman, and, more recently, the overviews of Peter Schaefer). Simply put for you: 'Jews', 'Jew', 'Judaism' are Greek schemata, and not really definable. As Gershom Scholem said to me: 'There are Judaisms, not a Judaism'.

The Satmar blasphemous participation in allowing the deaths of thousands of Hungarian Yehu'dim, and 'Rabbi' Yo'el Teitelbaum's role in this during the Sho'ah has been discussed by my colleague Menachem Keren-Kratz:

2013A Rabbi Yo'el Teitelbaum, the Satmar Rebbe (1887-1979): biography. Ph.D. disertation, Tel-Aviv University, 1-455 [Hebrew] , 1-10 [English abstract]

2014A Has thou escaped and also taken possession? The responses of the Satmar Rebbe -- Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum -- and his followers to criticism of his conduct during and after the Holocaust. Dapim: Studies on the Holocaust 28(2):97-120

2014B The Satmar Rebbe and the destruction of Hungarian Jewry: Part 1. Tablet Magazine 16 July

2014C The Satmar Rebbe and the destruction of Hungarian Jewry: Part 2. Tablet Magazine 17 July

In the 2nd chapter of my monograph-in-progress, I touch upon the Satmar Rebbe, and his vociferous manipulations and distortions of Torah.

I would note for J.D. Chase that I understand what he is saying. However: there is not a natz'ri alive who has the moral/ethical right to offer any critiques of post-Sho'ah Yisra'eli governments or their policies. Virtually all of it falls under the category of what R. Solomon Schechter in March 1903, with uncanny prescience, termed 'higher criticism -- higher antisemitism'. I say this becaue natz'rut formulated, financed, and carried out the Sho'ah.

[Will Dockery]

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 10:35:04 AM UTC-5, likeachill...@gmail.com wrote:
> Shalom & Erev tov...the problem is not your syntax, but your seemingly deliberate ignorance of Chassidus.
>
>
> what I have problem with is your babbling about 'mainstream Judaism'.
>
> There is little about your ignorant babbling I do not find incredibly offensive, but I would remind you that 'never again!' is not synonymous with your incessant attitude of 'never mind!'.
>
> ---
>
> Wow! Just wow! This guy isn't

<snip>

Gadzooks!

You seem really angry, my friend...

:)

[DianeE]

<likeachill...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9ae7ed8-f3bd-4984...@googlegroups.com...

---------------
I guess you missed what poisoned rose had to say about me. Check it out,
it's probably funnier.

DianeE

[DianeE]

"JD Chase" <jdcha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:82a16b09-3cbf-4f83...@googlegroups.com...

Certainly agree about supporting Israel, but that doesn't mean that we
should unquestioningly and unreservedly support the Israeli government...
Many Jews seem to become personally angry and offended when anyone
criticizes the harsh policies of the Israeli government, and that is wrong,
Imo...

---------------
Well, the thing is, Israel is a democracy, and this is the government they
elected. I know, I know, we did get rid of the democratically elected
leader of Egypt, but do we really want to pull off a military coup in
Israel?

DianeE

[DianeE]

"Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:d9e434ea-0ea3-432b...@googlegroups.com...

-------------
Don't get sarcastic. The fact that the Jews of Europe did not have a
homeland to flee to made them easy prey for the Nazis. Israel's continued
existence is what prevents the Holocaust from ever happening on that scale
again.

DianeE

[Just Walkin']

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 4:46:18 PM UTC-6, DianeE wrote:
> -------------
> Don't get sarcastic. The fact that the Jews of Europe did not have a
> homeland to flee to made them easy prey for the Nazis. Israel's continued
> existence is what prevents the Holocaust from ever happening on that scale
> again.
>
> DianeE

Baloney. This wrong-headed idea turns the "light unto nations" into another petty nationalism, easy prey for another Holocaust, on a much larger scale. The only thing standing between the State and its enemies now is not the strength of its faith, the power of its God or the love of the world around us; it is its nuclear arsenal. Hence are you saying that this light unto nations may involve a mushroom cloud?

[Willie]

Thank you Stephan, for those references. I just read the Tablet article (Part 1)

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/178913/satmar-rebbe-1

I did not know this history. Do you think the article is accurate?

(Haven't found Part 2. Do you have a link? Or Khematite?)

[Willie]

Sorry, there's a link to Part 2 right at the beginning of Part 1.

[Will Dockery]

It didn't help much that Roosevelt turned refugees away by the boatload, either.

[Just Walkin']

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 8:35:29 AM UTC-6, chris wrote:
> I haven't found any references in Chronicles that say "I like ripping off people to make money, I like using others religious beliefs to make money, I like lies and treachery to get my rocks off".
> course I'm crazy and delusional....:-)
> chris

Do you think he or anyone else would make that admission?

Even Trump plays those cards close to his chest...

[Stephan Pickering]

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 3:30:59 PM UTC-8, Willie wrote:
> I did not know this history. Do you think the article is accurate?

Yes. I have studied his dissertation quite closely, which elaborates in even greater detail (with all of the relevant Hebrew/Yiddish sources). His family is from the same region as that of Elie Wiesel and his boyfriend friend Rav David Weiss Halivni.

Kol tuv / be well...Stephan

[DianeE]

"Just Walkin'" <kens...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5d938906-47f4-482f...@googlegroups.com...

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 4:46:18 PM UTC-6, DianeE wrote:
> -------------
> Don't get sarcastic. The fact that the Jews of Europe did not have a
> homeland to flee to made them easy prey for the Nazis. Israel's continued
> existence is what prevents the Holocaust from ever happening on that scale
> again.
>

Baloney. This wrong-headed idea turns the "light unto nations" into another
petty nationalism, easy prey for another Holocaust, on a much larger scale.
The only thing standing between the State and its enemies now is not the
strength of its faith, the power of its God or the love of the world around
us; it is its nuclear arsenal. Hence are you saying that this light unto
nations may involve a mushroom cloud?

---------------
Why are you bringing religion into it?

DianeE

[DianeE]

"Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:0b7a8180-98a4-402c...@googlegroups.com...

> On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 5:46:18 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
>> "Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:d9e434ea-0ea3-432b...@googlegroups.com...
>> > On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 11:49:22 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
>> >>
>> >> We can work to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, but that
>> >> involves supporting the State of Israel
>> >
>> > Yeah, right on, and cue "Neighborhood Bully"... and play it loud, play
>> > it
>> > f*cking loud.
>> >
>> > :)
>> -------------
>> Don't get sarcastic. The fact that the Jews of Europe did not have a
>> homeland to flee to made them easy prey for the Nazis. Israel's
>> continued
>> existence is what prevents the Holocaust from ever happening on that
>> scale
>> again.
>>
>

> It didn't help much that Roosevelt turned refugees away by the boatload,
> either.

------------
Exactly. Nowhere to run.

DianeE

[M. Rick]

>Hence are you saying that this light unto nations may involve a mushroom cloud?

Two parts here: Israel as safe haven for Jewish people, and the nuclear arsenal (or deterrent) that protects Israel. Without the second the first might not exist. Are you saying Israel should dispense with their nuclear weapons? I don't think anyone is arguing for a mushroom cloud in the event of another full-scale war on Israel. Attempting to diffuse Iran seems like a step back from nuclear confrontation.

[Willie]

From Part 2, these statements, which seem like they came from a member of the Gestapo, are attributed to Rabbi Yoel himself. Incredible:

"The Holocaust is God’s punishment of the Jewish people for its sins, and primarily for the sin of Zionism. The Zionist concept implied a denial of God’s ability to deliver his people and disrupted the natural place of the people of Israel, destined to remain exiled until the true deliverance.

• Zionism’s ultimate, undeclared goal was the spiritual annihilation of the people of Israel. Therefore, collaboration with those trying to cause the people of Israel to sin, that is, Zionist institutions, is strictly forbidden, even under threat of death.

• Zionists are the descendants of the Erev Rav (mixed multitude) and the Amalekites, so it is no wonder that they have caused the people of Israel such trouble.

• Any collaborators with Zionism, even the religious members of Ha-Mizrahi and Agudath Israel are also guilty of its sins. Therefore, the Zionist and the Haredi rabbis also bear part of the blame for the Holocaust.

• The Zionists bear the blame for the Holocaust not only because of their ideological concept, but also because of their actions, which included:

provoking Hitler and causing him to take revenge upon the people of Israel, obstructing emigration to other countries so as to force Jews to settle in Palestine, and the closure of their borders to immigrants following the demand to establish a Jewish state. Particular blame falls on the Zionists for deliberately preventing the Haredim from immigrating and thus saving themselves.

• The sin of Zionism was so grave that even its bitter opponents, Rabbi Yoel’s anti-Zionist followers were punished for it.

• The Holocaust was part of the redemption process. The Messiah’s advent, destined to occur during its course, was impeded by the Zionists’ actions and the intervention of Satan."

This article is one of the most horrifying I've ever read. How his zealotry led to such a view of Zionism completely escapes me. I guess I understand it, but then again I don't.

- Willie

[Just Walkin']

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 7:46:56 PM UTC-6, DianeE wrote:
> "Will Dockery"

> >>
> >
> > It didn't help much that Roosevelt turned refugees away by the boatload,
> > either.
> ------------
> Exactly. Nowhere to run.
>
> DianeE

Frank Herbert reveals the Jews as the first colonists of space, driven off the planet by the forces you fear, in the last 2 books in his DUNE series in which they literally help save the universe. The final denouement, for someone who cares, is worth the 6 book read.

[luisb...@aol.com]

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 8:46:56 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
> "Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0b7a8180-98a4-402c...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 5:46:18 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
> >> "Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:d9e434ea-0ea3-432b...@googlegroups.com...
> >> > On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 11:49:22 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> We can work to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, but that
> >> >> involves supporting the State of Israel
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, right on, and cue "Neighborhood Bully"... and play it loud, play
> >> > it
> >> > f*cking loud.
> >> >
> >> > :)
> >> -------------
> >> Don't get sarcastic. The fact that the Jews of Europe did not have a
> >> homeland to flee to made them easy prey for the Nazis. Israel's
> >> continued
> >> existence is what prevents the Holocaust from ever happening on that
> >> scale
> >> again.
> >>
> >
> > It didn't help much that Roosevelt turned refugees away by the boatload,
> > either.
> ------------
> Exactly. Nowhere to run.
>

It's far more than nowhere to run nowadays. It's becoming the only game on earth. Judaism in Europe is fast diminishing. Among non-Orthodox French and British Jews, intermarriage rates are around 45%. That's nowhere near as bad as the 71% among non-Orthodox U.S. Jews. Among Russian and Ukrainian Jews it's 80%. Outside of a minority of non-Zionist ultra-Orthodox Jews, the strongly engaged Jews whose children and grandchildren will be Jewish identify strongly with the state of Israel.

[Will Dockery]

The "melting pot"... Gary Snyder wrote a poem on this future, I haven't seen or read the poem in about 40 years but it hit home for me, as another race almost wiped out by genocide are found floating in the DNA of many of us "American Mutts, the Native Americans, where in some tribes there the only traces survive, in the blood.

[Will Dockery]

I'm fairly familiar with the Dune story, though mostly with the first, via the novel, discussions of the novel (I had a friend, Greg Carter, who actually wrote his own film adaptation of Dune and tried to sell it in Hollywood, obviously with no success) and, later, the David Lynch film version, all good stuff, but I haven't followed up with the sequels, yet. In time, perhaps.

The Vulcans of Star Trek had many Jewish elements in their culture, as well, if my memory serves me well.

[Will Dockery]

All this is pretty complicated, and I didn't help when I digressed:
>
> The "melting pot"... Gary Snyder wrote a poem on this future, I haven't seen or read the poem in about 40 years but it hit home for me, as another race almost wiped out by genocide are found floating in the DNA of many of us "American Mutts", the Native Americans, where in some tribes there the only traces survive, in the blood.

I wanted to refer to the Gary Snyder poem specifically, so kindly hold this thought until I get a look around the web and see if this Snyder poem has actually made it this far, misquoting it from memory will not serve the purpose so well.

:)

[Will Dockery]

I'm almost certainly thinking of Gary Snyder's "Turtle Island" book, here:

> > The "melting pot"... Gary Snyder wrote a poem on this future, I haven't seen or read the poem in about 40 years but it hit home for me, as another race almost wiped out by genocide are found floating in the DNA of many of us "American Mutts", the Native Americans, where in some tribes there the only traces survive, in the blood.
>
> I wanted to refer to the Gary Snyder poem specifically, so kindly hold this thought until I get a look around the web and see if this Snyder poem has actually made it this far, misquoting it from memory will not serve the purpose so well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_Island_(book)

"Turtle Island is a book of poems and essays written by Gary Snyder in 1974. Within it, Snyder expresses his vision for humans to live in harmony with the earth and all its creatures. The book was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Poetry in 1975. The work is titled after an English translation of many Native American tribes' terms for Turtle Island..."

Specific quotes to follow, if available online, since I long ago probably either lost, gave away, or otherwise misplaced my copy, like 30-40 years ago.

:)

[gj]

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:23:52 -0800 (PST), "Just Walkin'"
<kens...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 4:46:18 PM UTC-6, DianeE wrote:
>> -------------
>> Don't get sarcastic. The fact that the Jews of Europe did not have a
>> homeland to flee to made them easy prey for the Nazis. Israel's continued
>> existence is what prevents the Holocaust from ever happening on that scale
>> again.
>>
>> DianeE

Wasn't global ignorance also a big reason? From what I gather, many
german citizens 'sorta, might've, maybe' knew what was going on, but
not quite on the scale it was happening. And that the rest of the
world basically was in the dark until the end. Maybe we have more to
thank for facebook and twitter than the brick and mortar state of
Israel for keeping things out of the dark ages. Until the grid goes
down of course.

>Baloney. This wrong-headed idea turns the "light unto nations" into another petty nationalism, easy prey for another Holocaust, on a much larger scale. The only thing standing between the State and its enemies now is not the strength of its faith, the power of its God or the love of the world around us; it is its nuclear arsenal. Hence are you saying that this light unto nations may involve a mushroom cloud?

While I've always been horrified like everyone else at the atrocities
of the nazis inflicted on the jews, I've never quite been able to see
how it was justified that they essentially were allowed to seize an
occupied, quite civilized, nation and pretend it's their homeland just
because their people (along with many others) occupied back in old
testament days. Seems like a very nazi-like thing to do.

-GJ 2.0

[DianeE]

"gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rpa9bb5gm0qg0in2q...@4ax.com...

>
> While I've always been horrified like everyone else at the atrocities
> of the nazis inflicted on the jews, I've never quite been able to see
> how it was justified that they essentially were allowed to seize an
> occupied, quite civilized, nation and pretend it's their homeland just
> because their people (along with many others) occupied back in old
> testament days. Seems like a very nazi-like thing to do.
>

---------------
I don't know about anyone else, but it makes me very uncomfortable to see
someone spell "Jews" with a small "j." I don't think you are a neo-Nazi,
but the neo-Nazis I have encountered in cyberspace make a point of spelling
it with a small "j" to de-legitimize Jews as an ethnic group. Like that guy
who shows up here promulgating the "Khazar" story.

Secondly, the Jews did not "seize" Israel from the Arabs. It was ruled by
*Britain* at the time (1948). Do you think the Jewish homeland should have
been established in Alaska?

DianeE

[Will Dockery]

To be fair to "gj", Diane, he usually spells everything in small type, like e.e. cummings.

Note that "gj" also wrote "germans" and "Nazis" the same way as he did "jews".

[Just Walkin']

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 4:12:11 AM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Frank Herbert reveals the Jews as the first colonists of space, driven off the planet by the forces you fear, in the last 2 books in his DUNE series in which they literally help save the universe. The final denouement, for someone who cares, is worth the 6 book read.
>
> I'm fairly familiar with the Dune story, though mostly with the first, via the novel, discussions of the novel (I had a friend, Greg Carter, who actually wrote his own film adaptation of Dune and tried to sell it in Hollywood, obviously with no success) and, later, the David Lynch film version, all good stuff, but I haven't followed up with the sequels, yet. In time, perhaps.
>

All irrelevant. The movies miss the point of the books and the people I speak of don't even appear until the second trilogy. They are the only ones who can evade the reach of the telepaths. How? Through ritual.

[gj]

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 09:58:03 -0500, "DianeE"
<Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:

>
>"gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:rpa9bb5gm0qg0in2q...@4ax.com...
>>
>> While I've always been horrified like everyone else at the atrocities
>> of the nazis inflicted on the jews, I've never quite been able to see
>> how it was justified that they essentially were allowed to seize an
>> occupied, quite civilized, nation and pretend it's their homeland just
>> because their people (along with many others) occupied back in old
>> testament days. Seems like a very nazi-like thing to do.
>>
>---------------
>I don't know about anyone else, but it makes me very uncomfortable to see
>someone spell "Jews" with a small "j." I don't think you are a neo-Nazi,
>but the neo-Nazis I have encountered in cyberspace make a point of spelling
>it with a small "j" to de-legitimize Jews as an ethnic group. Like that guy
>who shows up here promulgating the "Khazar" story.

You capitalized nazi above, does that mean you legitimize them and
give them respect? Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the
sweaty things.

>Secondly, the Jews did not "seize" Israel from the Arabs. It was ruled by
>*Britain* at the time (1948). Do you think the Jewish homeland should have
>been established in Alaska?

Actually by then the mandate allowing britain to govern it was being
terminated as the UN came in with resolution 181. Doesn't matter
though, occupied land was indeed taken and handed to another party.
How is that right? Would you still justify that if you weren't
jewish? What if you were a palestinian? Perhaps it would have been
more fair to give them a portion of germany. I wonder why we didn't
do that. Because it wasn't the 'homeland'?




-GJ 2.0

[James Zadok]

Contrary to the notion that Jews were sudden interlopers in the Palestinian Mandate territory, Winston Churchill (then the British Secretary of State for the Colonies) noted in June 1922--twenty years before the Holocaust began--that:

"When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance."

Obviously more Jews lived in the territory of the Palestinian Mandate after the Holocaust than before it, but Jews had already been living there in their own well-established communities for many centuries.

[Will Dockery]

Okay, I understand that when I see one or more of those many Dune sequels, I need to buy them up and start reading... no time like the present.

Thanks, J.W.

:)

[M. Rick]

> Wasn't global ignorance also a big reason? From what I gather, many german citizens 'sorta, might've, maybe' knew what was going on, but not quite on the scale it was happening.

"German citizens" vs. "The Jews." That's why many Jewish people started leaving Europe well before Hitler. And during the war, the majority of Europeans took a lot of pride in ridding themselves of the Jews. The more dead Jews, the merrier. Not much different today in certain parts of the world. Any Jews (or jews) in your part?

[M. Rick]

>Doesn't matter though, occupied land was indeed taken and handed to another party. How is that right? Would you still justify that if you weren't jewish? What if you were a palestinian?

Fortunately Americans didn't seize any American land from Palestinians, otherwise they might have a problem.

[Willie]

We've discussed this before, but for a very readable account of Israel in the late-19th and 20th centuries, I highly recommend Ari Shavit's "My Promised Land." There are many more detailed accounts, but those I've tried are so dense (it's very complicated) that I found them too hardgoing to get through. "My Promised Land" reads like a story. While Churchill and James are certainly correct, there's also Lydda:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/10/21/lydda-1948

[gj]

Not so much. Not many europeans either.

-GJ 2.0

[James Zadok]

Yes, I read this when it came out. The most memorable passage for me was this exchange, which strongly suggests what the Jews of Mandatory Palestine were up against in 1948:

DIGNITARIES: What will become of the prisoners detained in the mosque?
GUTMAN: We shall do to the prisoners what you would do had you imprisoned us.
DIGNITARIES: No, no, please don't do that.
GUTMAN: Why, what did I say? All I said is that we will do to you what you would do to us.
DIGNITARIES: Please no, sir. We beg you not to do such a thing.
GUTMAN: No, we shall not do that. Ten minutes from now the prisoners will be free to leave the mosque and leave their homes and leave Lydda along with all of you and the entire population of Lydda.
DIGNITARIES: Thank you, sir. May Allah bless you.

Funny thing, though. At right around the same time, the Hindus and the Muslims of India engaged in furious exchanges of communal violence, including mass murder and mass rape. Perhaps up to two million people were killed and fourteen million displaced from their homes. The decision was made to create two separate nations by partitioning India. India expelled many of its Muslims; what would became Pakistan expelled pretty much all of its Hindus.

Yet, for some strange reason, no one seems to get too upset about the injustices that were inflicted in the creation of a Hindu-free Pakistan and a significantly less Muslim India. All the finger-pointing seems to go in an entirely different direction that has nothing to do with either of those nations. I wonder why.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/29/the-great-divide-books-dalrymple

[Willie]

Good point about Pakistan. I work with lots of both Indians and Pakistanis (none over 40) and they seem to get along fine, and when the attack happened a couple of years ago in Mumbai, the Pakistanis were embarrassed and sorry.

When you write, "what the Jews of Mandatory Palestine were up against in 1948," you mean that the Arabs wouldn't hesitate to kill them, right? That was a brilliant tactic Gutman used. Stunningly effective.

[James Zadok]

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 3:58:22 PM UTC-5, Willie wrote:
>
> When you write, "what the Jews of Mandatory Palestine were up against in 1948," you mean that the Arabs wouldn't hesitate to kill them, right? That was a brilliant tactic Gutman used. Stunningly effective.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

[Rachel]

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 4:30:54 PM UTC-8, Just Kidding wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 16:06:45 -0800 (PST), Stephan Pickering
> <stephanpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 11:42:46 AM UTC-8, likeachill...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> I haven't been here in a while, and I'm a little confused.
> >>
> >> Are we discussing Bob Dylan or Shabtai Zisel?
> >>
> >> Has Dylan ever embraced the Shabtai Zisel publicly? Privately?
> >>
> >> Personally, if I had to choose a name I wouldn't choose Shabtai Zisel and I expect that Bob Dylan feels the same way.
> >>
> >> Of course, I could be wrong.
> >>
> >> Temporary
> >
> >Shalom & Erev tov...I read this with sanguine realisation you do NOT know what you are talking about, resorting to Yehu'di baiting. Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva, as he has known his entire life, IS his actual Hebrew name. To me, he has said 'Bob Dylan is a mask'. His grandmother Anna affectionately called him 'Zushi' or 'Zusha', Yiddish variants of 'Zusa'/Zisel. When called to the bimah, to read the Torah/????? ?????, he often prefers being called 'Zushi benAvraham'. He reads and speaks fluent Hebrew, speaks some Yiddish still (he was surrounded as a boy with relatives who spoke mostly Yiddish). I have a colour photograph, taken by a friend, of him reading the Torah at a CHaBaD bimah, with ??????/tefillin, kipah, ??????/ talit. The photograph is the title page of my monograph-in-progress, and, in my chapters, I never call him 'Bob Dylan'. This he does quite regularly. Perhaps you enjoy celebrating in public your ignorance of Yehu'dim with ill-disguised contempt. If you had
> >a creative thought, it would perish from loneliness, i.e. you have never displayed any knowledge of Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan'.
> >A final request (and, no, an apology from you is hardly solicited): silence yourself.
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >STEPHAN PICKERING / ??? ?"? ?? ?????
> >Torah ????? Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
> > ????? ??? ?? ??????
> >
> >THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
> >
> >IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva: davening in the musematic dark
>
> Okay Will....need any more proof that this guy is a nut job??

I would prefer to call him Tushi. Is that acceptable? :)

[Rachel]

MISTER Tushi!

[Stephan Pickering]

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 3:17:15 PM UTC-8, Rachel wrote:

> I would prefer to call him Tushi. Is that acceptable? :)

The Hebrew equivalent of this affectionate Yiddish term is 'toochis'...go for it...S

[Rachel]

no, i'll stick with the soft sh, thanks. it's cuter. like baby buns. :)

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 6:20:23 PM UTC-5, Stephan Pickering wrote:
> On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 3:17:15 PM UTC-8, Rachel wrote:
>
> > I would prefer to call him Tushi. Is that acceptable? :)
>
> The Hebrew equivalent of this affectionate Yiddish term is 'toochis'...go for it...S

Group Hug...

:D

[M. Rick]

> Not so much. Not many europeans either.

Just Americans, I guess.

[DianeE]

"gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:4mg9bbl0u29oqcjvk...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 09:58:03 -0500, "DianeE"
> <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:rpa9bb5gm0qg0in2q...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> While I've always been horrified like everyone else at the atrocities
>>> of the nazis inflicted on the jews, I've never quite been able to see
>>> how it was justified that they essentially were allowed to seize an
>>> occupied, quite civilized, nation and pretend it's their homeland just
>>> because their people (along with many others) occupied back in old
>>> testament days. Seems like a very nazi-like thing to do.
>>>
>>---------------
>>I don't know about anyone else, but it makes me very uncomfortable to see
>>someone spell "Jews" with a small "j." I don't think you are a neo-Nazi,
>>but the neo-Nazis I have encountered in cyberspace make a point of
>>spelling
>>it with a small "j" to de-legitimize Jews as an ethnic group. Like that
>>guy
>>who shows up here promulgating the "Khazar" story.
>
> You capitalized nazi above, does that mean you legitimize them and
> give them respect?

-------------
No, it means I adhere to conventional spelling. But when neo-Nazis spell
"Jews" with a small "j" they do it for that reason.
--------------

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the
> sweaty things.

--------------
Please don't be condescending. Obviously I don't think it's petty. I told
you it's something that makes me very uncomfortable, and I told you why.
----------------

>
>>Secondly, the Jews did not "seize" Israel from the Arabs. It was ruled by
>>*Britain* at the time (1948). Do you think the Jewish homeland should
>>have
>>been established in Alaska?
>
> Actually by then the mandate allowing britain to govern it was being
> terminated as the UN came in with resolution 181. Doesn't matter
> though, occupied land was indeed taken and handed to another party.
> How is that right?

----------------
You make it sound like there weren't any Jews living there in 1948, which is
not the case.
-----------------

Would you still justify that if you weren't
> jewish? What if you were a palestinian?

-----------------
I'm the same age as the State of Israel, born in 1948. I like to think that
if I were a Palestinian I would have accepted reality and done something
better with my life than nursing a grudge.
---------------------

Perhaps it would have been
> more fair to give them a portion of germany. I wonder why we didn't
> do that. Because it wasn't the 'homeland'?

---------------
(Who's "we?")
More likely because the USSR wouldn't have stood for it.

DianeE

[Earl Browder]

On Friday, 5 February 2016 21:34:27 UTC-5, DianeE wrote:
> "gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> ---------------------
> Perhaps it would have been
> > more fair to give them a portion of germany. I wonder why we didn't
> > do that. Because it wasn't the 'homeland'?
> ---------------
> (Who's "we?")
> More likely because the USSR wouldn't have stood for it.
>
> DianeE

After all, Stalin had already created a Jewish homeland (the Jewish Autonomous Region) within the USSR in 1934.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1977568.stm

[Stephan Pickering]

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 6:34:27 PM UTC-8, DianeE wrote:
> ----------------
> You make it sound like there weren't any Jews living there in 1948, which is
> not the case.

> DianeE

Shalom & Erev tov...you bring up an important historical fact. Yisra'el has NEVER been empty of Yehu'dim, even during the Diaspora instigated, in the main, by Babylonians from 597-538 BCE. There has been a constant Yehu'dit population in Yisra'el since 1272 BCE. A useful overview is Ephraim Stern, 2000. The Babylonian gap. Biblical Archaeology 26(6). Even the 1911 Encyclopaedia Judaica holds up well.

[luisb...@aol.com]

While I support a Jewish homeland in Israel, I'm also a big enough boy to recognize that Israelis can be arrogant, bullying, marauding fucks who have massacred Palestinian Arabs and denied them rights on their own ancestral hunting grounds. One could say the same thing for Arabs. I'm also a big enough boy to recognize the historical role of big power politics, both colonial and Cold War, as well as the role of oil, much of which came on the heels of WW2 and the Shoah. As for what is "right," don't be absurd. Right by whose measure? In the modern world what's right pretty much boils down to consensus, do it not? The final triumph of secularism in the west is almost 150 years old, but it was a long time coming.

[DianeE]

<luisb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:266a0002-8475-41c7...@googlegroups.com...

>

While I support a Jewish homeland in Israel, I'm also a big enough boy to
recognize that Israelis can be arrogant, bullying, marauding fucks who have
massacred Palestinian Arabs and denied them rights on their own ancestral
hunting grounds. One could say the same thing for Arabs. I'm also a big
enough boy to recognize the historical role of big power politics, both
colonial and Cold War, as well as the role of oil, much of which came on the
heels of WW2 and the Shoah. As for what is "right," don't be absurd. Right
by whose measure? In the modern world what's right pretty much boils down to
consensus, do it not? The final triumph of secularism in the west is almost
150 years old, but it was a long time coming.

------------
Oil? In Israel? Where?

DianeE

[luisb...@aol.com]

Okay...I very seriously hope that's a joke post.

[gj]

Si.

-GJ 2.0

[Stephan Pickering]

Shalom & Boker tov...some of the comments here are what R. Solomon Schechter in 1903 terms 'higher antisemitism'. A non-Yehu'di has NO moral or ethical right to offer ANY comments about how post-Sho'ah Yehu'dim live or govern themselves. These antisemites say, 'I support a Jewish homeland in Israel but...' The first part of the sentence is nonsense: one cannot parse words.

Yisra'el has since 1272 BCE been Yehu'dit. 'Palestine'/'Palestinians' are a colonialist definition, never mentioned in any Islamic 'scripture'. 'Palestine' is never mentioned in Torah, although the word 'Peleshet' appears. 'Palaistinê' as a word first appears without precise delineation in a 5 century BCE Greek text (which I have carefully studied). In 1948, there WAS a 'MandatPalestine': what was called 'TransJordan' was to become 'Palestine'. The Arabs rejected the idea of a 'Palestine', and 'TransJordan' became Jordan. And, since 1948, not one Arab government (there are no Arab democracies, and Arab women have no rights) has ever offered to finance road repair, water districts, education institutions, health care in a 'Palestine'. These Arab tribes HAVE a state, now known as Jordan = Mandate Palestine. I reject without hesitation the idea that the part of Eretz Yisra'el called Judaea and Samaria (Ezor Yehu'da v'Shomron) is to be given to tribes living there calling themselves 'Palestinians'. These genocidal tribes have never been able to establish and maintain any democratic social systems beyond wanting to exterminate Yehu'dim. They are the tribal equivalent of the KKK and nationalsozialismus.

What galls me is that the antisemites here want to claim they can discuss the poetries of the Yehu'dit poet Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan'...having no literate knowledge of the Hebrew/Aramaic paradigms underlying and buttressing his ontological authenticity.

Some good sources worthy of study:

David S. Wyman, 1985. The abandonment of the Jews: America & the Holocaust, 1941-1945 (Pantheon Books), 1-444

David S. Wyman, ed., 1989-1991. America & the Holoaust (Garland Publishing), 13 volumes

Laurel Leff, 2005. Buried by the Times: the Holocaust & America's most important newspaper (Cambridge University Press), 1-426

The literature is extensive, and these are good introductions.

[luisb...@aol.com]

On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 6:50:52 PM UTC-5, Stephan Pickering wrote:
> Shalom & Boker tov...some of the comments here are what R. Solomon Schechter in 1903 terms 'higher antisemitism'. A non-Yehu'di has NO moral or ethical right to offer ANY comments about how post-Sho'ah Yehu'dim live or govern themselves. These antisemites say, 'I support a Jewish homeland in Israel but...' The first part of the sentence is nonsense: one cannot parse words.
>
> Yisra'el has since 1272 BCE been Yehu'dit. 'Palestine'/'Palestinians' are a colonialist definition, never mentioned in any Islamic 'scripture'. 'Palestine' is never mentioned in Torah, although the word 'Peleshet' appears. 'Palaistinê' as a word first appears without precise delineation in a 5 century BCE Greek text (which I have carefully studied). In 1948, there WAS a 'MandatPalestine': what was called 'TransJordan' was to become 'Palestine'. The Arabs rejected the idea of a 'Palestine', and 'TransJordan' became Jordan. And, since 1948, not one Arab government (there are no Arab democracies, and Arab women have no rights) has ever offered to finance road repair, water districts, education institutions, health care in a 'Palestine'. These Arab tribes HAVE a state, now known as Jordan = Mandate Palestine. I reject without hesitation the idea that the part of Eretz Yisra'el called Judaea and Samaria (Ezor Yehu'da v'Shomron) is to be given to tribes living there calling themselves 'Palestinians'. These genocidal tribes have never been able to establish and maintain any democratic social systems beyond wanting to exterminate Yehu'dim. They are the tribal equivalent of the KKK and nationalsozialismus.

I didn't realize I was an anti-Semite. My folks will definitely want to have a sit down about this. Anyhoo, a derivative of the name "Palestine" first appears in Herodotus (5th Century BC, long before 1272) who calls the area "Palaistinē" (Greek - Παλαιστίνη). Herodotus is not some obscure Greek. See also: Philistines. Steve, Goliath. Goliath, Steve. See also: Roman use of that name.

> What galls me is that the antisemites here want to claim they can discuss the poetries of the Yehu'dit poet Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan'...having no literate knowledge of the Hebrew/Aramaic paradigms underlying and buttressing his ontological authenticity.

I'm sure that Zushy is fine with this--if he cares about his record sales.

What's all the talk about democracy? No democracy is exercised by Israel in the (J+S) occupied zones. We're all sinners, my fellow Bernie Bro. Get humble before G-d, yo. G-dless striving is nothing more than atheism and materialism.

[likeachill...@gmail.com]

A non-Yehu'di has NO moral or ethical right to offer ANY comments about how post-Sho'ah Yehu'dim live or govern themselves.

I reject without hesitation the idea that the part of Eretz Yisra'el called Judaea and Samaria (Ezor Yehu'da v'Shomron) is to be given to tribes living there calling themselves 'Palestinians'. These genocidal tribes have never been able to establish and maintain any democratic social systems beyond wanting to exterminate Yehu'dim. They are the tribal equivalent of the KKK and nationalsozialismus.

What galls me is that the antisemites here want to claim they can discuss the poetries of the Yehu'dit poet Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan'...having no literate knowledge of the Hebrew/Aramaic paradigms underlying and buttressing his ontological authenticity.

I wish there were words to describe this kind of screed. Anyone? Anyone?

[Just Walkin']

The truth is so dirty, you can't tell it from dog crap.

[Will Dockery]

"The truth was obscure too profound and too pure... to live it you had to explode." -Bob Dylan

[RichL]

<likeachill...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3914e350-ec42-497e...@googlegroups.com...

> I wish there were words to describe this kind of screed. Anyone? Anyone?

Call it what it is. Bigoted.
There are all sorts of supremacists on this earth. This is one sort,
deserving of as little attention as the other sorts.

[Stephan Pickering]

Shalom & Boker tov...more babbling from the trolls...

[DianeE]

<luisb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cb6a355d-53e7-44cf...@googlegroups.com...

> Okay...I very seriously hope that's a joke post.

----------------
It wasn't, but after googling "Israel oil wells," I see that oil actually
was discovered in the Golan Heights a few months ago. Up until that point
there wasn't any known source of oil in Israel, although I believe there was
natural gas.

Either way, in 1948 there was no known source of oil in the area that became
Israel.

DianeE

[Will Dockery]

All the more reason for Iran and those others to scream for the destruction of Israel, I reckon.

God never said it was gonna be easy being his Chosen People, after all.

[luisb...@aol.com]

Especially when European Christians want to take that title for themselves and therefore start treating you as "different" as "other," 'cause we can't have two chosen people, can we?

[gj]

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:32:26 -0500, "DianeE"

You can relax, I'm not a neo-nazi.

>>
>>>Secondly, the Jews did not "seize" Israel from the Arabs. It was ruled by
>>>*Britain* at the time (1948). Do you think the Jewish homeland should
>>>have
>>>been established in Alaska?
>>
>> Actually by then the mandate allowing britain to govern it was being
>> terminated as the UN came in with resolution 181. Doesn't matter
>> though, occupied land was indeed taken and handed to another party.
>> How is that right?
>----------------
>You make it sound like there weren't any Jews living there in 1948, which is
>not the case.

Of course I'm aware of that. And why the need to take it all if they
were there anyway? And in some areas it seems they lived in harmony.
The original plan was about 55% of Palestine to be the new Israel
wasn't it? Seems to be human nature, get your foot in the door, draw
up some treaty to later break, then claim god wanted you to have it
all anyway.

>-----------------
>Would you still justify that if you weren't
>> jewish? What if you were a palestinian?
>-----------------
>I'm the same age as the State of Israel, born in 1948. I like to think that
>if I were a Palestinian I would have accepted reality and done something
>better with my life than nursing a grudge.

One could say the same thing about the jews couldn't they? 'Just get
over it'. As a non-jewish, non palestine observer looking in, they
seem to have much more in common than not. Shame that whole religion
thing has to make things difficult.

>---------------------
>Perhaps it would have been
>> more fair to give them a portion of germany. I wonder why we didn't
>> do that. Because it wasn't the 'homeland'?
>---------------
>(Who's "we?")
>More likely because the USSR wouldn't have stood for it.

Maybe something on the W side?


-GJ 2.0

[Will Dockery]

Thanks for stating that, GJ... with some nut posting here with his murderous fantasies the last couple of days, some of us are posting here with an edge in our voices, as Harlan Ellison put it, some years back.

As I mentioned to Diane, your lower case type is in the "e.e. cummings" line, and means no disrespect.

Royal We.

:)

[DianeE]

"Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f3585883-525e-46ba...@googlegroups.com...

---------------
I believe you that he "means no disrespect," but since he does capitalize
"I" and the first word of every sentence, the cummings analogy does not
really apply.

DianeE

[DianeE]

"gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:rv2hbbd9k4migka8l...@4ax.com...

--------------
I didn't think you were, and said so, above. But when you do what the
neo-Nazis do, you give the *appearance* that you are one of them. For
example, other ethnic groups have used the swastika symbol in the past, but
they can't use it now. I'm not going to say anything else about this,
because clearly you don't see this my way and never will.

You're right from your side and I'm right from mine.

Or: The princess and the prince discuss what's real and what is not. It
doesn't matter inside the gates of Eden.
-------------

<snip>

>>I'm the same age as the State of Israel, born in 1948. I like to think
>>that
>>if I were a Palestinian I would have accepted reality and done something
>>better with my life than nursing a grudge.
>
> One could say the same thing about the jews couldn't they? 'Just get
> over it'. As a non-jewish, non palestine observer looking in, they
> seem to have much more in common than not. Shame that whole religion
> thing has to make things difficult.
-----------------

I'm wrestling with that last sentence, because I'm not sure how much of the
conflict really has to do with religion, as opposed to (a) 2500-year
*history* of conflict, and (b) money money money money.

DianeE

[gj]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 11:35:01 -0500, "DianeE"

I am pretty damn stubborn.

>You're right from your side and I'm right from mine.
>
>Or: The princess and the prince discuss what's real and what is not. It
>doesn't matter inside the gates of Eden.
>-------------
>
><snip>
>
>>>I'm the same age as the State of Israel, born in 1948. I like to think
>>>that
>>>if I were a Palestinian I would have accepted reality and done something
>>>better with my life than nursing a grudge.
>>
>> One could say the same thing about the jews couldn't they? 'Just get
>> over it'. As a non-jewish, non palestine observer looking in, they
>> seem to have much more in common than not. Shame that whole religion
>> thing has to make things difficult.
>-----------------
>I'm wrestling with that last sentence, because I'm not sure how much of the
>conflict really has to do with religion, as opposed to (a) 2500-year
>*history* of conflict, and (b) money money money money.

I like your answer better.

-GJ 2.0

[gj]

I must have that poster kf'd, but yes something seems to be going on,
I can just feel it in the air. Always worse during election season.

>>
>> As I mentioned to Diane, your lower case type is in the "e.e. cummings"
>> line, and means no disrespect.
>---------------
>I believe you that he "means no disrespect," but since he does capitalize
>"I" and the first word of every sentence, the cummings analogy does not
>really apply.
>
>DianeE
>

There's no method to the madness, nor a plan in motion. It could be
laziness, it could be a fear of leaving the caps on and having to
retype everything. I believe in capitalization of the first word and
proper punctuation at the end, but it's in the middle on usenet I
allow my proper-noun capitalization freak flag to fly.

-GJ 2.0

[luisb...@aol.com]

Sorry..."some" plural? I'm not. Who besides you? And if it isn't anyone besides you, would you kindly refrain from speaking for others? Like, just write, "I am posting here with an edge in my voice?" But if it is others, please say who those others are?

[luisb...@aol.com]

If you didn't think he was, then why would you hassle him about it to the point that he feels it necessary to write, "I'm not a neo-Nazi?"