Postmodern Bob
don freeman
that it is being used so often and so broadly. I actually went out and
bought the Idiot's Guide to Postmodernism so I could figureout just waht
the word actually means.
What I learned was that before we had postmodernism, we had modernism. I
thought that self-referentiality was an aspect of postmodernism, so I
figured Dylan was postmodern right from his first album where he said
"hey hey Woody Guthrie, I wrote you a song," and where he complainsabout
working for a dollar a day and being called a hillbilly. Now, I realize
that this is not at all postmodernism, and probably isn't even
modernism. As people have pointed out, talking blues and folk music have
always had a self-referential element. Even in "Jackaroo" it turns out
that the singer is only singing the song so he can talk the girl who is
listening into marrying him.
So what about "Desolation Row" and all of Dylan's surrealism? Well, it's
been pointed out to me that this is modernism, not postmodernism.
Picasso was a modernist, as was T.S. Eliot. "Desolation Row" is a
brilliant step in creating poetry in pop music, but it's still modern
poetry, not posmodern poetry.
So where does Bob start getting postmodern? How about Nashville Skyline,
with his goofy grin, his goofy hat, his goofy voice, teh goofy JOhnny
Cash liner notes, and those goofy songs. Nashville Skyline is not really
a country album so much as it's an un-pop album.
"Love and Theft" seems to be truly postmodern with the way it jumps
around in styles, milking aspects of old songs, creating a form of
surrealism much different than "Desolation Row." Or am I wrong about
this?
As you can probably tell, I still don't know dick about postmodernism.
Maureen & Stephen Scobie
wrote:
> I've finally tried to come to grips with the word " postmodernism" now
> that it is being used so often and so broadly.
Whaddya mean "now"? The word "postmodernism" has been used "often and
broadly" for at least the past 25 years, if not longer. It is a silly
term, if only because it is tied to chronological sequence. What can
possibly come "after" postmodernism? Personally, I've always liked the
term "post-contemporary."
> I thought that self-referentiality was an aspect of postmodernism
Right. So the first really great postmodernist novel is Cervantes'
"Don Quixote," and the greatest of them all is Sterne's "Tristram
Shandy."
> Even in "Jackaroo" it turns out
> that the singer is only singing the song so he can talk the girl who is
> listening into marrying him.
Yup, that's a "postmodern" gesture. I love it.
>
> So what about "Desolation Row" and all of Dylan's surrealism? Well, it's
> been pointed out to me that this is modernism, not postmodernism.
> Picasso was a modernist, as was T.S. Eliot. "Desolation Row" is a
> brilliant step in creating poetry in pop music, but it's still modern
> poetry, not postmodern poetry.
Absolutely. So, if there is any meaningful distinction at all between
modernist and post-modernist (which, most of the time, I doubt) then it
lies not in self-referentiality, nor in the mere presence of quotation
and allusion to previous intertextual sources, but rather in the
attitude towards such quotations. "Desolation Row," I agree, is
modernist, in much the same way as "The Waste Land" is, because all the
allusions and fragmented quotations point, not just to a fragmented,
citational contemporary culture, but also to a deep-seated nostalgia
for the (lost) possibility of an authentic, unfragmented culture. That
is, the essential element that modernism and postmodernism share is
their response to cultural fragmentation. Modernism registers this
loss, and laments it; postmodernism accepts, and even celebrates it.
> "Love and Theft" seems to be truly postmodern with the way it jumps
> around in styles, milking aspects of old songs, creating a form of
> surrealism much different than "Desolation Row." Or am I wrong about
> this?
I suspect you are, though it's an interesting question. There is no
more modernist phrase than "World Gone Wrong." "Time Out Of Mind" is
definitely a modernist album. The fascinating thing about "Love and
Theft" is that it marks Dylan's first definite flirtation with
postmodernism.
>
> As you can probably tell, I still don't know dick about postmodernism.
Don't worry, Don. Nobody does. Including (despite everything I've
said in this post) me. But if you want as close as you are ever likely
to get to a definitive statement on these questions, try to track down
a copy of bpNichol's "The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid."
Stephen
Don't Tread On Me
Blatantly, all of Dylan's work falls under the category of pre-modernism.
--
laissez-faire, laissez-passer, le monde va de lui-même
--
Hamp Nettles
Ziggy1972
"post-postmodernism." She said that for over an hour and I hung up. That was
three years ago.
-Jeremy
don freeman
postmodernism. Naturally, I have some more questions.
> The word "postmodernism" has been used "often and
> broadly" for at least the past 25 years, if not longer.
But isn't it just recently that the word has filtered down to common
conversation? I've been noticing that people are calling any old thing
"postmodern" these days.
> It is a silly term, if only because it is tied to chronological sequence.
> What can
> possibly come "after" postmodernism?
Surely, words will find a way, won't they?
> the essential element that modernism and postmodernism share is
> their response to cultural fragmentation. Modernism registers this
> loss, and laments it; postmodernism accepts, and even celebrates it.
Finally, a definition I can sink my teeth into, but is it really this simple?
You say that:
> "'Desolation Row," is modernist, in much the same way as "The Waste Land"
> is, because all the allusions and fragmented quotations point, not just to a
> fragmented,
> citational contemporary culture, but also to a deep-seated nostalgia
> for the (lost) possibility of an authentic, unfragmented culture."
But does "Desolation Row" not celebrate the fragmentation as well? I detect a
certain smugness from the narrator in Desolation Row. I suspect he enjoys not
having to think too much and is not really worried that he can't "read too
good." He sure feels superior to Casanaova, who only visits there, and he
seems to have fond memories of Einstein's electric violin playing there.
> "Time Out Of Mind" is definitely a modernist album. The fascinating thing
> about "Love and Theft" is that it marks Dylan's first definite flirtation
> with postmodernism.
But can we draw such a definite line between "Time Out Of Mind" and "Love and
Theft?" There seems to be an evolutionary development between the two albums,
with "Things Have Changed" right in the middle.
Maureen & Stephen Scobie
wrote:
> But isn't it just recently that the word has filtered down to common
> conversation? I've been noticing that people are calling any old thing
> "postmodern" these days.
I really don't think it's recent, Don, but maybe our "common
conversations" are with different people! Seriously, I think the word
"postmodern" has been in widespread use, even in advertising, for at
least 20 years.
> > the essential element that modernism and postmodernism share is
> > their response to cultural fragmentation. Modernism registers this
> > loss, and laments it; postmodernism accepts, and even celebrates it.
>
> Finally, a definition I can sink my teeth into, but is it really this simple?
Well, no, of course not, you can't reduce a whole cultural debate to
three lines! But I do think that there is, in principle, an essential
distinction here. In practice, and especially in the reading of any
specific text, things are much more complex. The distinction between
"laments" and "celebrates: is one of *tone*, and thus is susceptible to
very subjective readings and interpretations. What sounds like
celebration to one listener may sound like lamentation to another -- or
indeed to the same listener 3 days later -- not to mention the
possibilities of listening to different versions of the same song.
"Desolation Row" sounded modernist in 1965, but by the 90s NET
performances it may well sound postmodernist.
> But can we draw such a definite line between "Time Out Of Mind" and "Love and
> Theft?" There seems to be an evolutionary development between the two albums,
> with "Things Have Changed" right in the middle.
Agreed. There *does* seem to be a definite change, but ther certainly
isn't a "definite line." THC sounds to me much more like L&T.
Stephen