Dylan's first tape-fake?

[James Lor]

I would like to clear up some detials about Bob's first recording.
Supposedly,someone recorded a tape in May 1960 in St. Paul. When I asked
for a copy from a collector I was informed this tape was probably NOT
Dylan. Anyone else have an opinion on this tape which I have not yet
heard.Is it worth getting?

Thanks

JL

[mm...@inetdirect.net]

In article <60.3857.42...@canrem.com> jame...@canrem.com (James Lor) writes:
>Subject: Dylan's first tape-fake?
>From: jame...@canrem.com (James Lor)
>Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:04:00 -0500

>Thanks

>JL
The earliest tape I know of is the May 1961 Minn. Party Tape. There was
supposed to be some high school recordings on the CDROM, but they are not
there. What songs are on this May 1960 tape? It's possible that it is a
mislabeling of the 1961 recordings.

Mitch

[Craig Jamieson]

Subject: Re: Dylan's first tape-fake?

First of all this is not the first tape in circulation of Bob Dylan even
if it is authentic. The Bucklen tape is from 1958 and has been discussed
in many other threads...

And "fake" may not be the best word either. It may or may not be Bob Dylan,
but it probably is a tape of someone made by Karen Wallace in her
St Paul, Minnesota apartment in 1960.

The real question is, is it Dylan or did she decide a tape she has of
someone else is enough like Dylan that is has serious monetary value
if she pretends it is Dylan?

James Lor (jame...@canrem.com) wrote:
: I would like to clear up some detials about Bob's first recording.

Yes. Yes.

I think it is Dylan. Glen Dundas thinks it is. Michael Krogsgaard
thinks it is not. Opinions vary like that, people with considerable
listening experience of pre-Columbian Dylan in appalling recording
quality are not agreed. You must listen and decide.

Some think it is Paul Clayton. Listen to some Paul Clayton. Listen
to the tape. Listen to some seriously early Dylan. Mull it over.
Take your time. It is kinda fun to do.

If you are into 1995 DATs of concerts and care about audio quality
the tape may well be a substantial culture shock. If you want to know
if you can stomach your Dylan at this vintage take your favourite Dylan,
make fifteen generations of tape copies on the cheapest tape you can find
through the speakers with a microphone from a children's cheap toy, make
sure people talk over it from time to time, point the microphone in
the wrong direction, run a tap in the background, then listen to the
resulting tape at distorting volume six rooms away from a bad torn
speaker. You must be wearing earmuffs while doing this. If you still
think Dylan's genius shows through then you are ready for the type
of tape we are discussing.

This kind of tape is more like archaeology than music, it takes a certain
sort of person to get pleasure from it. Such people might seriously
scare you. Right, Ben? Clive? Geoffrey? Les? Stuart? :-)

EDLIS has been working on a major transcription project of this tape,
but that is not a reason not to discuss it now. We are more than interested
in what people think. And an edited highlights of previous threads on this
might be worth reposting if anyone has the old postings?

Karen Wallace's Apartment, St Paul, Minnesota, May 1960.
[now Karen Moynihan], St Paul tape 1960.]

The Armpit Tape was recorded by concealing the tape
recorder (literally) in an armpit. Karen Wallace originally tried
to sell this tape for $10,000. She used to play samples from it
to potential buyers. Brian Stibal [Zimmerman Blues etc.] brought
a tape recorder in his armpit and managed to capture the
excellent recording we all love so much... Is it Dylan or might
it be Paul Clayton?

Go Tell It On The Mountain (Traditional) [9], Fare Thee Well
(Traditional) [10], Delia's Gone [Delia] (Blind Blake) [19], Wop
Da Alano (Traditional) [20], Who's Gonna Shoe Your Horse
(Traditional) [21] and Who's Gonna Shoe Your Pretty Little Feet
(Traditional) [22] are omitted. Guitar and vocals, no harmonica.

[Harpreet Dhaliwal]

Craig Jamieson (rc...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:

: James Lor (jame...@canrem.com) wrote:
: : I would like to clear up some detials about Bob's first recording.
: : Supposedly,someone recorded a tape in May 1960 in St. Paul. When I asked
: : for a copy from a collector I was informed this tape was probably NOT
: : Dylan. Anyone else have an opinion on this tape which I have not yet
: : heard.Is it worth getting?

: Yes. Yes.

: I think it is Dylan. Glen Dundas thinks it is. Michael Krogsgaard
: thinks it is not. Opinions vary like that, people with considerable
: listening experience of pre-Columbian Dylan in appalling recording
: quality are not agreed. You must listen and decide.

If we're just voting I'd like to say that I also think it's
Dylan. Of course I'm assuming I haven't mixed it up with any other
recording but I don't have much from 1960... and this one does
sound like it might not be Dylan. I think it is... it DOES sound
like him. I'm not sure how we recognize voices but this one feels
like it's Bob's.

It's worth getting either way. IMO, the performances are a lot more
enjoyable than those on his first album.

[Mike Kahn]

anyone got a good copy of this tape to copy for me?

[Harpreet Dhaliwal]

Mike Kahn (kahn...@BLUE.UNIVNORTHCO.EDU) wrote:
: anyone got a good copy of this tape to copy for me?

the whole problem is that there are no good copies.
i'd like to be wrong about that but i haven't heard (of)
anything from 1960 sounding remotely decent.
it's listenable only because it's solo acoustic.

[Dorwin Clay Black]

In article <3jucde$i...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez03...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Harpreet Dhaliwal) writes:
> Path: taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!news.ucdavis.edu!bullwinkle!ez032016
> From: ez03...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Harpreet Dhaliwal)
> Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

> Subject: Re: Dylan's first tape-fake?

> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 95 03:46:38 EST
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>
This tape sounds interesting, and I would love to have a copy.
Anyone with this tape willing to trade? I have lots of Dylan stuff to offer as
well as some Springsteen, Van Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, and REM.

[MSKIMSHEPPARD]

Hello,
My mom was best friends with Keren (Wallace) Moynihan since High school. I remember Karen and her then husband "Dick Moynihan" coming to our home often. My mom (now 81) had told me in the past how Keren had recordings of Bob Dylan before his fame. I had no clue until today that Karen had tried to sell the tape and that it's authenticity was in question. I called my mom to let her know this and she "oh no, that is a real tape", she had been friends with Karen for 60 years and had always knew of it's existence. My mom and Karen lost track of each other 15 years ago. My mom is a no nonsense person and would not verify something or believe something without true knowledge it had occurred. My mother has even admitted she was ever that interested in it just for the fact she never cared for Dylan's music.

[MSKIMSHEPPARD]

My mother now 81 had told me about this tape years ago. Her best friend for 60 years was Karen (Wallace) Moynihan. I remember her well. She and her then husband were furniture upholsters and we still have the furniture. I told my mom today that some are questioning it's authenticity and she was surprised to hear that and said no, I know that was real. She had been told the story since the 60's by her best friend, Karen. My mother and Karen had lost contact 15 years ago. I am now 53 and can even tell you where in St. Paul this "apartment". I do know Karen and Dick never had children but did have a foster son. I am not sure if this son still has contact with Karen or Dick. That's my 2 cents of what I know about the authenticity. Kim

[Just Kidding]

Well, I guess that settles it then.

[Zod]

Interesting to mull over...

[David Johnson]

[David Johnson]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 8:06:59 PM UTC-6, Zod wrote:

[David Johnson]

[David Johnson]

[David Johnson]

[David Johnson]

[Ed Ricardo]

On Sunday, 9 January 2022 at 01:48:33 UTC, David Johnson wrote:
> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 7:46:59 PM UTC-6, David Johnson wrote:
> > On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 6:20:30 PM UTC-6, David Johnson wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 6:19:29 PM UTC-6, David Johnson wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 8:06:59 PM UTC-6, Zod wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 1, 1995 at 11:04:00 AM UTC-5, James Lor wrote:
> > > > > > I would like to clear up some detials about Bob's first recording.

What you sayin', David?

[David Johnson]

[David Johnson]

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:57:07 AM UTC-6, eduardomonte...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi - this is not David - this is Karen Moynihan, nee Karen Wallace. I am the person who did the Dylan recording in my apartment in May of 1960. Shortly after making it he left town to begin his long career. I offered the tape to him at the time, but he did not want it. He did ask me not to let anyone hear it because, although he was not satisfied with his "performance" in it, it did apparently encourage him to leave town to begin his long career. I probably still have the tape somewhere, but don't know where at this time, and frankly I don't care! I have moved several times in the past few years. It is unfortunate that for many years no one believed that the recording was actually Bob Dylan - all were wrong - I think they know that now.

[Zod]

Interesting......