in defense of Self Portrait...
Creme121
opinion, it's great. Great to drive to, listen to at home, hear a song in
concert, sing in my head...it's one of my most played CD's by Dylan. Please
explain it to me what is so bad.
KReilly
Mine too.
Bockflock
and (on this album) he does things with his voice you won't get anywhere else.
(other than maybe JWH)
------------------------------
"done layed around,
done stayed around
this old town too long..."
Mr. Bob Dylan
Adam Hindman
"Creme121" <crem...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010205083153...@ng-bj1.news.cs.com...
Ok, good to know some other people like this album. I owned it for years
without ever even "knowing" it was bad; it took the internet to tell me
that. :)
Little Sadie, Days of '49, Early Morning Rain.. Very good songs. What is
the problem here?
Adam Hindman
http://students.washington.edu/adamh
Peter Stone Brown
"Adam Hindman" <ad...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:95mmrq$prk$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
The problem, with a couple of exceptions is mostly substandard, uninvolved
and unemotional, often sloppy performances. Compare it with almost any
other performance of Dylan doing cover songs like "Moonshiner" for instance
and the difference is obvious.
--
"Where the angels' voices whisper to the souls of previous times." --Bob
Dylan
Peter Stone Brown
e-mail: ps...@earthlink.net
http://store.yahoo.com/tangible-music/petstonbrowi.html
Ze 39steps
Check out my goddamn website:
www.mp3.com/montgomerycleft
willi...@my-deja.com
of SP is in inverse proportion to how much critical commentary one read
before or while listening to it the first time. I bought it the day it
came out at a little store in Northfield, Minn. It was, oddly enough,
my first bought-at-release Dylan album. I was accompanied by a Dylan
veteran who, oddly, also thought it was great, and conveyed the
requisite excitement about cutting the cellophane on a new Dylan
release. It's probably more subjective than we all admit when we
evaluate these things, but I still love it. Great for late at night,
and driving, as you noted. What you said about the internet is funny,
but I have also been influenced to pay more careful attention to some
recordings people give impassioned defenses to around here. I never
paid much attention to Hard Rain, for example, then someone here raved
about it, and now I enjoy it more. (The Budokan defenders haven't
convinced me, yet, though.) I digress. Best wishes.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Creme121
colorful piece of work.
pears...@my-deja.com
would be considered in the same "mystique" mode of every other
unreleased studio work. Another "lost Dylan classic".
Days of 49, Early Morning Rain, Copper Kettle are terrific.
I do question the inclusion of some dreadful Isle Of Wight renditions,
The Boxer, and some other limp attempts---but such is life.
I'd really like to know if All The Tired Horses was really a "complete"
song at one time with actual working verses??
Paul Pearson
Wolfds
>I've always felt that if this album was recorded but never released, it
>would be considered in the same "mystique" mode of every other
>unreleased studio work. Another "lost Dylan classic".
>
I remember Bob saying something quite similar in an interview (don't remember
which one).
Dave
jmsh...@hotmail.com
>>>The Budokan defenders haven't convinced me, yet, though.
Gosh damn it, Budokan rules. Everything is really catchy and, uh, fun
(Shelter From The Storm, Love Minus Zero/No Limit, One More Cup Of
Coffee, Is Your Love In Vain?, All I Really Want To Do), with a few bad
exceptions (I Want You). The reworked Don't Think Twice, It's Alright
rules so long as you keep in mind that you can listen to the original
version whenever you want.
Richard
own work?
"Wolfds" <wol...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010205161426...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Robert D
Backstreet Boys, but I don't understand how anyone who is familiar with Dylan's
greatest work could stand listening to Self Portrait with getting nauseated.
The production values are horrible, Dylan didn't write any of the material, and
he sings like someone pointed a gun to his head to make him do it.
Robert D.
"Your two dollar shoes hurt my feet"--Woody Guthrie
Linn Carpenter
notable being "The Boxer", "All the Tired Horses" (which I'm not crazy about
myself, but it's growing on me), and the amount of cover songs. A lot of
people here like SP and just as many don't, but it's 24 tracks of Dylan, and
very good Dylan. In my opinion, there ain't nothin' wrong with that. I don't
love every song on the album, but I wouldn't want to be without it.
Linn
Linn Carpenter
Linn
Linn Carpenter
still can't see why it's so poorly regarded. Because it's contains a lot of covers
and traditionals? So what? He sings some covers and traditionals at his
concerts. People get all excited over "Not Fade Away", "Searchin' for a Soldier's
Grave", etc., so I don't see the big deal about doing covers on one of his albums.
And he certainly did write some of the material on this album even if it did appear
on a previous album - "She Belongs To Me", "LARS", and a couple of others. I think
he sounds great on a lot the songs, especially Early Morning Rain and Let It Be
Me. It's cool to hear that "different" voice he used on some of the songs. Oh
well, my opinion only. To each his own.
Linn
Zuke
Creme121 <crem...@cs.com> wrote:
>I am not looking to be right, explanation is all, from those who dog this
>colorful piece of work.
I'd be interested to know what other types of music or groups
you like. I have given this album many chances over the years and
it has never grown on me. It's hard to believe how Dylan misses
on some of the covers, something he rarely does.
But the main thing is whether you like it or not. I've often
campaigned for "New Morning" as an underrated album so I can see
where you are coming from but I agree with the majority consensus
in this case.
Later,
Zuke
--
You are in control until you are out of control.
Creme121
Linn Carpenter
> to me, apart from maybe the Everly Brothers.
Can't blame you for that, Tricia. They're incredible.
Linn
Patricia Jungwirth
Firstly, I think the argument is specious because, of course, we can't
seperate one album from the body of work and see it objectively and in
isolation, but also because I don't think anyone _is_ saying it's
"remarkable" - we're saying it's pleasant, enjoyable, and contains some
music of worth and a great deal to reflect on in the choices made.
We watched a documentary about Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis tonight, and the
reasons she gave for marrying Onassis seemed to me to have some parallels
with Dylan's reasons for making Self Portrait - an attempt to escape from a
public perception of the individual which they wished to escape from, an
identification with the past which was stifling and which they felt had
nothing to do with them as a person... if anyone can understand what I'm
saying!
>>>>
I would be amazed if Shania Twain had released something of the calibre
of Time Out of Mind. I believe the album does stand up as a standalone
work. If it were the only album by Dylan it would still be remarkable. I
don't think very many people could say the same for Self Portrait.
--
John Howells
how...@bigfoot.com
http://www.punkhart.com
<<<<
Tricia
"I wish I was on some Australian mountain range
I got no reason to be there but
I imagine it would be some kinda change... "
-Bob Dylan, 'Outlaw Blues'
-January 1965
***tric...@aardvark.net.au
Blonde On Blonde: Bob Dylan in Melbourne, 1966:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5581/
http://www.allexperts.com/displayExpert.asp?Expert=1806
--
Posted from aardie.aardvark.net.au [203.36.12.10]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Creme121
Self-portrait, love it. Thirdly, my other interests are James, Sarah
Mcglochlan, David Gray, Petty, Clapton, simon, Madonna, Pearl Jam, Beatles,
Iggy Pop, Mexican Native Music, Sting, Alison Kraus, Neil Young, Native Italian
Music, Sugar Ray, Rusted Root,Talking Heads, Springsteen, fatboy slim, George
Clinton, Geggy Tah, Al Green, Pink Floyd, Natalie Merchant, U2, Jeff Buckley,
Corby Yates...get the picture?
What do you mean by >It's hard to believe how Dylan misses
>on some of the covers, something he rarely does.
Misses what?
Verses? Cues? That, Dylan is notorious for. On his OWN songs.
Self-portrait is special to me because I got a great look at who Bob can be on
a regular old day. Humorous, relaxed, enjoying a good old time. Sarcastic,
spiteful, appeasing his public.
Regardless of what most people think, Self-portrait is a great look at him. The
title is more than the album cover and the title. He is still being elusive by
singing songs by other artists and putting them on his album called
Self-portrait. By doing the Boxer and singing both vocals, he was really saying
something about how he felt towards "that song" or "those guys". There are so
many different dylan voices on this album that I sometimes feel like its a
different album from song to song. He's not preaching, caring about anything,
protesting...We ask for answers from him, we ask to know more about him, this
is what we get and we tell him that it is his worst album ever. It is a gift in
the Dylan collection, a ruby in the satchel of diamonds. I never tire of it. So
we treat this gift from Dylan as a ball of crap in the hands of a monkey in a
zoo! Get with it kids...listen again!
Who's gonna throw that Minstrel Boy a coin?
Zuke
Patricia Jungwirth <tric...@aardvark.net.au> wrote:
>>Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:32:17 -0500
>>From: Lloyd Fonvielle <navi...@compuserve.com>
>>John Howells wrote:
>>
>>> I have never liked this album, and it was the very
>>> first "new" Dylan album I ever bought, having just discovered him
>
>Not sure if that's true, Lloyd.
>I first heard it in 1970 - probably not immediately upon its release, but I
>loved it and just thought it was a lot of fun. I liked it better than John
>Wesley Harding, which I didn't get at all at the age of 17. Maybe it had to
>do with the guy who played it for me loved it. We used to bellow along with
>'Days of 49' and laugh at 'The Boxer' and generally have a great time
>listening to it. We still thought Dylan was cool to have put out such a
>weird album. I have to say that at that age none of the people he was
>covering meant a thing to me, apart from maybe the Everly Brothers. There
>was no "significance" to it. So maybe it's all association.
>
>
>Tricia
>
I was quite taken with the song about sending a letter from jail. I'm
pretty sure that song is on SP, not DYLAN. However, up to that point
every Dylan album I had bought took up a permanent residence on my
turntable for months. This was the first Dylan album where this did not happen.
Since then other albums, some quite respected by critics such as Planet
Waves, have also failed to go through a burst of repeated listenings.
So that is the acid test for me, whether I really like a Dylan album, and
SP has not passed it yet but if I can find a friend who wants to get
drunk and listen to SP and beat on the kettle drum to it maybe things would
change. I agree that experiencing something like that with others adds
to the memories of an album. I mean, who doesn't love "Dancing Queen"?
Later,
Zuke
> "I wish I was on some Australian mountain range
> I got no reason to be there but
> I imagine it would be some kinda change... "
> -Bob Dylan, 'Outlaw Blues'
> -January 1965
>
>
>***tric...@aardvark.net.au
>Blonde On Blonde: Bob Dylan in Melbourne, 1966:
>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5581/
>http://www.allexperts.com/displayExpert.asp?Expert=1806
>
>--
>Posted from aardie.aardvark.net.au [203.36.12.10]
>via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
John Howells
<"A1pump" <a1p...@aol.com> wrote in message
<news:20010206205113...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
<> I still think he released it to lose fans on purpose. It was the height of
<> people hounding Dylan and looking to him for answers and the meaning of
<life.
<I totally agree with that.
I too agree that it was his attempt to demystify himself and shake
off some of his wild-eyed followers. It was his way of saying "leave
me alone". The fact that many people here stuck with him through
Self Portrait is evidence that a large part of his fan base knew
he had it in him to come up with something great again. I can think
of very few other artists who could have survived such a fiasco.
Zuke
Creme121 <crem...@cs.com> wrote:
>Firstly, my dogs name is Zuke. Secondly, New Morning is up there with
First the good news, I will not be suing your dog for infringement on
my copyright. How'd he get that that name? Thanks for putting down
your musical interests, I didn't ask it in a negative sense, just out
of curiosity. Just because we are Dylan fans mean that our basic
music interests are 100% alike and maybe SP is more in another area
which you might like. For instance I like NEW MORNING and wish Dylan
has done more in the piano area. If SP was a pastiche of old jazz
piano tunes and throwaways in that vein maybe I would have absolutely
loved it. I personally like "Down in the Groove" whereas many dismiss
it. So we all have to be the final arbiter of our own tastes.
>Self-portrait, love it. Thirdly, my other interests are James, Sarah
>Mcglochlan, David Gray, Petty, Clapton, simon, Madonna, Pearl Jam, Beatles,
>Iggy Pop, Mexican Native Music, Sting, Alison Kraus, Neil Young, Native Italian
>Music, Sugar Ray, Rusted Root,Talking Heads, Springsteen, fatboy slim, George
>Clinton, Geggy Tah, Al Green, Pink Floyd, Natalie Merchant, U2, Jeff Buckley,
>Corby Yates...get the picture?
>
>What do you mean by >It's hard to believe how Dylan misses
>>on some of the covers, something he rarely does.
>Misses what?
>
>Verses? Cues? That, Dylan is notorious for. On his OWN songs.
Listen to Dylan on Folksingers CHoice doing "Lonesome Whistle", he just
nails that song dead. I heard a version of this song on the radio this
weekend and whoever was doing it must not even know what the lyrics are.
They are giving it the white bread MOR sound with a bluegrass tinge.
Yikes, makes me want to jump out of a window. So not verses or cues
but the essence of the song.
Let's take another example, John Mellencamp doing Van Morrison's Wild
Night. Not a bad version but it's hard to top Van's verison.
If you aren't going to be able to own the song yourself you are just
wasting everybody's time. I'm not saying there can only be one definitive
version of a song, there's probably a hundred great versions of the
Gershwin's "Our Love is Here to Stay" and I've heard many great "A
Mockingbird sang in Barkley Square" and maybe somebody could do a
cover of "Wild Night" that could stand by Van's original but it's not an
easy task.
I've always maintained that my main problem is the tempo of the songs
on SP, even Copper Kettle, a song I love which you figure Dylan could
do in his sleep does not make it for me. It just drags. Now I know
a song such as Copper Kettle should drag, you got to get the ambience
of lying in the woods waiting for that corn mash to turn to liquor,
but it drags way past that for me.
John Howells
<> Peter Stone Brown said it already: sloppy, uninvolved performances,
<> but I'd also add horrible production and excess of pointless filler.
<John, no offense, but I've yet to figure out what the sloppiness thing is all
<about.
Well, take two examples from off the top of my head, and maybe I'm
being too picky because I'm a musician and tend to notice these
things. "Days of 49" starts out fine, very promising, but by the
second or third verse it becomes obvious that Bob is winging it
and suddenly changing the timing and chord progression, causing
some of the band members to stumble. Added to this mix the way in
which Bob mangles the chorus toward the end you wind up with a
sloppy performance that could have easily been improved by recording
another take. But I understand that the way the sessions turned
out just about everything on the album consisted of studio warmups
(I believe Bob stated that most of what ended up on the album were
warmups intended to test out the studio sound before recording the
"real" stuff). Another obvious example is "In Search of Little
Sadie" which has Bob meandering through a series of odd chord
changes apparently intended to foil the other musicians. This is
a game musicians sometimes play with each other, sort of a "guess
the next chord", the goal being to cause the other players to
deliberately play the wrong note at the wrong time. This is great
fun when you're loosening up, but not the sort of thing you release
on an album by a major recording artist.
Of course Dylan has sloppy moments on other albums, great ones like
Highway 61 Revisited ("Tombstone Blues", "Queen Jane Approximately"
with its detuned guitar) and Blonde on Blonde (lyric flubs in
"Memphis Blues Again", a missed beat in "Sad Eyed Lady of the
Lowlands"), but these are more than compensated for by the outstanding
quality of the material and the dynamic performances from everyone
involved. It is obvious to me that eveyone was doing their absolute
best to come up with the best performances possible, including Bob
of course. I don't get that impression from Self Portrait at all.
I always get the impression that if Bob had just tried a little
harder it would have all worked out. I still hate the overdubs,
though, which ironically only tend to emphasize the poor quality
of the performances, when the intention was most likely to mask
it.
There are other moments on Self Portrait that bother me, such as
the hilarious "The Boxer", the lackluster and amateurish "It Hurts
Me Too", and let's not forget the sloppy (but nevertheless
magnificient) Isle of Wight songs. Come on, you know that he
completely mangles the final verse? I admit not all the songs are
sloppy and ill-performed. Some are merely adequate, such as "Early
Morning Rain" and "Living the Blues". At least one is outstanding
("Copper Kettle"). But add it all up and you don't have much. There
is no "whole" there.
<>
<> and the first few verses of"Days of 49" before it completely falls apart.
<When does it fall apart? I think the whole song sounds great.
See above.
<>
<> I tried to like it, but for me it's a painful
<> and embarrassing listening experience.
<You guys are way too harsh on this album. It is not emabarrassing.
This is one of those albums I would never ever play in mixed company.
<> Ask yourself this: if this were the only album Dylan ever released,
<> would you still think it's as great as you believe?
<I don't think it's great. I think it's good. I don't think too many rmd
<supporters of this album called it great, but they said it wasn't terrible.
My mistake. I thought people here were saying "I love it. It's great!".
Being merely good is a different matter, although I don't think it even
rises to that challenge.
<> If anyone else
<> had come out with this album, would you even care? If the answer
<> is yes, then I submit that you have no rock & roll in your soul.
<> I don't mean this as an insult.
<If anyone I really admired and cared about as much as I do Dylan came out with
<this album, of course I would care. And I take exception to the implication
<that this would mean I have no "rock & roll" in my soul. It simply means I
<have no problem with a little diversity in the artist's work. Also, not
<everything Dylan has done is rock & roll. Most of it isn't. John, I am
<astounded that you of all people would make such a comment.
Okay, I regret that comment, although I indicated I didn't mean it
as an insult, but it still came off that way. Sorry. What I really
meant to say was that if Pat Boone or Wayne Newton had released
this album we would all be snorting with laughter instead of trying
to find ways to justify it. As for not everthing by Dylan is rock
& roll, that's true but his best work has always been in that genre.
pca...@zoo.uvm.edu
maybe there was a different audience in mind for some of the album.
Peter
In article <QAVf6.12580$1%2.61...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
how...@best.com (John Howells) wrote:
> pears...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> <Days of 49, Early Morning Rain, Copper Kettle are terrific.
>
> Terrific? They're okay, and the album MIGHT have made a nice single
> lp with those songs and a handful of others ("Alberta", "Little
Sadie",
> "Living the Blues", "I Forgot More", "Take a Message To Mary"). and if
> they had gone easy on the mostly inept overdubs. I actually prefer the
> album "Dylan" (aka "A Fool Such As I") to Self Portrait.
>
> <I do question the inclusion of some dreadful Isle Of Wight
renditions,
> <The Boxer, and some other limp attempts---but such is life.
>
> Exactly the problem! I forgot about the Isle of Wight tracks, but
those
> are actually the best part of the album for me. At least I get to hear
> Dylan backed by the Band.
>
> <I'd really like to know if All The Tired Horses was really a
"complete"
> <song at one time with actual working verses??
>
> The perfect opener for this album. It announced loud and clear "I
don't
> give a fuck".
>
> --
>
> John
Howells
>
how...@bigfoot.com
>
http://www.punkhart.com
>
Bob Stacy
> "A1pump" <a1p...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010206205113...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
> > I still think he released it to lose fans on purpose. It was the height of
> > people hounding Dylan and looking to him for answers and the meaning of
> life.
>
> I totally agree with that.
I agree Dylan has been pretty obtuse and confounding at times (and
intentionally so), but ... uh, let's see. Are you guys saying that the
intent of the spring 69 and spring 70 recording sessions was to
purposely create a product so inferior and out of favor that it might
cause the fan base to shrink -- and in the process cause loss of
critical acclaim and artistic respect? Or are you implying that the
mess just happened, and he decided to release it anyway (for your above
stated purpose)? In either case, he could have saved a lot of time,
trouble, and money by slapping together a crappy quickie to scare off
all the folks. Also could've saved himself a big trip over to the Isle
of Wight if he was trying to stay shy of the fans. It surely did take
'em a lot of practice to get things lousy enough for release :-o
And then why did he hustle his butt back into the studio during the
summer of 70? Do you reckon the quick release of New Morning was scare
tactic No. 2 or just the opposite - a rapid about-face since a few too
many fans had been "intentionally" lost? "Ooops, sorry folks, I just
foolin'; here's the "real" Bob Dylan album for 1970."
-Bob Stacy
Peter Stone Brown
"Bob Stacy" <bst...@usit.net> wrote in message
news:3A818B88...@usit.net...
> Peter Stone Brown wrote:
>
> > "A1pump" <a1p...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20010206205113...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
> > > I still think he released it to lose fans on purpose. It was the
height of
> > > people hounding Dylan and looking to him for answers and the meaning
of
> > life.
> >
> > I totally agree with that.
>
> I agree Dylan has been pretty obtuse and confounding at times (and
> intentionally so), but ... uh, let's see. Are you guys saying that the
> intent of the spring 69 and spring 70 recording sessions was to
> purposely create a product so inferior and out of favor that it might
> cause the fan base to shrink -- and in the process cause loss of
> critical acclaim and artistic respect? Or are you implying that the
> mess just happened, and he decided to release it anyway (for your above
> stated purpose)? In either case, he could have saved a lot of time,
> trouble, and money by slapping together a crappy quickie to scare off
> all the folks. Also could've saved himself a big trip over to the Isle
> of Wight if he was trying to stay shy of the fans. It surely did take
> 'em a lot of practice to get things lousy enough for release :-o
Well the Isle of Wight thing was incidental and according to reports fans
and critics alike weren't exactly pleased with that show at the time.
Dylan's own comments on Self Portrait have ranged from "It's not that bad,"
to (on why it was a double album), "I figure if you have a lot of crap, why
not load it up."
The Nashville sessions may have been a true attempt to make a country album.
It' anyone's guess what happened with the New York sessions.
>
> And then why did he hustle his butt back into the studio during the
> summer of 70? Do you reckon the quick release of New Morning was scare
> tactic No. 2 or just the opposite - a rapid about-face since a few too
> many fans had been "intentionally" lost? "Ooops, sorry folks, I just
> foolin'; here's the "real" Bob Dylan album for 1970."
>
New Morning was definite spin control. As much as alienating his fans may
have been part of it (remember Sara was saying stuff like every day a new
Jesus knocks on the door or comes through the woods), the viciousness of the
reviews ("What is this shit?" began Rolling Stone's) probably surprised even
Dylan.
And true to form when New Morning did come out, Ralph J. Gleasons's headline
was: "Weve got Dylan back again."
Bob Stacy
> Dylan's own comments on Self Portrait have ranged from "It's not that bad,"
> to (on why it was a double album), "I figure if you have a lot of crap, why
> not load it up."
You're quite right -- Dylan said a lot of words to that effect re: Self
Portrait -- but the key is the believability remains somewhat
questionable. No doubt, there is solid gold truth in parts of what he
was saying and/or thinking during those interviews, but I'm a tad
skeptical as to some of his stated intentions. The gist of it sounded
more like rationalization and after-the-fact damage control. You better
believe New Morning was spin control at its finest. Hell, I like the SP
album (within its frame of limits)... but I dug up a few interesting
quotes (see below). Enjoy!
-Bob Stacy
Quotes from "Bob Dylan: His Own Words" by Chris Williams (Omnibus Press,
1993):
全elf Portrait' was a bunch of tracks we'd done all the time I'd gone to
Nashville. We did that stuff to get a [studio] sound. To open up we'd do
two or three songs, just to get things right and then we'd go on and do
what we were going to do. And then there was a lot of other stuff that
was worse than appearing on bootleg records. So I just figured I'd put
all this stuff together and put it out, my own bootleg record, so to
speak. You know, if it actually had been a bootleg record, people
probably would have sneaked around to buy it and played it for each
other secretly. Also, I wasn't going to be anybody's puppet and I
figured this record would put an end to that... I was just so fed up
with all the people who thought I was nonsense. (New York, 1985)
That album was put out... [because] at that time... I didn't like the
attention I was getting. I [had) never been a person that wanted
attention. And at that time I was getting the wrong kind of attention,
for doing things I'd never done. So we released that album to get people
off my back. They would not like me any more. That's... the reason that
album was put out, so that people would just at that time stop buying my
records, and they did. (New York, 1981)
I feel I have an obligation to my record contract. This means recording
the best songs I can. That's why I look around for other people's songs.
(Woodstock, 1969)
I said, 'Well, fuck it. I wish these people would just forget about me.
I wanna do something they can't possibly like, they can't relate to'...
and I did this portrait for the cover. I mean... there was no title for
that album, and I said, 'Well, I'm gonna call this album 'Self Portrait"
and to me it was a joke. (1984)
Linn Carpenter
Linn
Linn Carpenter
> concept, do you?
Linn
Bob Gill
> Linn Carpenter <new...@home.com> writes:
>
> <John, no offense, but I've yet to figure out what the sloppiness thing is all
> <about.
>
> Well, take two examples from off the top of my head, and maybe I'm
> being too picky because I'm a musician and tend to notice these
> things. "Days of 49" starts out fine, very promising, but by the
> second or third verse it becomes obvious that Bob is winging it
> and suddenly changing the timing and chord progression, causing
> some of the band members to stumble. Added to this mix the way in
> which Bob mangles the chorus toward the end you wind up with a
> sloppy performance that could have easily been improved by recording
> another take.... Another obvious example is "In Search of Little
> Sadie" which has Bob meandering through a series of odd chord
> changes apparently intended to foil the other musicians. This is
> a game musicians sometimes play with each other, sort of a "guess
> the next chord", the goal being to cause the other players to
> deliberately play the wrong note at the wrong time. This is great
> fun when you're loosening up, but not the sort of thing you release
> on an album by a major recording artist.
That's not being picky. When I first heard this album I'd barely started playing
a guitar, and could hardly tune the thing, but I noticed all the tempo changes and
different chords on these two songs. It's particularly noticeable on Days of 49
because it starts out well, and the quick descent is quite a disappointment.
-- Bob G.
Bob Gill
> You're quite right -- Dylan said a lot of words to that effect re: Self
> Portrait -- but the key is the believability remains somewhat
> questionable. No doubt, there is solid gold truth in parts of what he
> was saying and/or thinking during those interviews, but I'm a tad
> skeptical as to some of his stated intentions. The gist of it sounded
> more like rationalization and after-the-fact damage control. You better
> believe New Morning was spin control at its finest. Hell, I like the SP
> album (within its frame of limits)... but I dug up a few interesting
> quotes (see below). Enjoy!
>
> Quotes from "Bob Dylan: His Own Words" by Chris Williams (Omnibus Press,
> 1993):
>
> That album was put out... [because] at that time... I didn't like the
> attention I was getting. I [had) never been a person that wanted
> attention. And at that time I was getting the wrong kind of attention,
> for doing things I'd never done. So we released that album to get people
> off my back. They would not like me any more. That's... the reason that
> album was put out, so that people would just at that time stop buying my
> records, and they did. (New York, 1981)
This quote is a good sample of Dylan's selective memories. They stopped buying
his records so well that Self Portrait reached No. 1 on the Cash Box charts _ his
first album to do so. (It was No. 4 on Billboard, which is not too bad either,
and higher than a couple of his earlier classics.) It's true that New Morning,
the follow-up, reached "only" No. 7 and No. 8, respectively, which was a bit of a
drop from the three previous post-accident albums, but then there was no hit
single like Lay Lady Lay, and no great buildup of anticipation as for John Wesley
Harding. It's also true that Dylan didn't have another top 10 album until 1974,
but then again he didn't release another good album of new songs until then
either. (Possibly he was continuing his attempts to subvert his own career :-).)
Planet Waves isn't exactly his finest, but it shot to No. 1 on both charts, thus
confirming the effectiveness of the "chase away the fans" strategy on Self
Portrait.
-- Bob G.
Linn Carpenter
> being too picky because I'm a musician and tend to notice these
> things. "Days of 49" starts out fine, very promising, but by the
> second or third verse it becomes obvious that Bob is winging it
> and suddenly changing the timing and chord progression, causing
> some of the band members to stumble. Added to this mix the way in
> which Bob mangles the chorus toward the end you wind up with a
> sloppy performance that could have easily been improved by recording
> another take. But I understand that the way the sessions turned
> out just about everything on the album consisted of studio warmups
> (I believe Bob stated that most of what ended up on the album were
> warmups intended to test out the studio sound before recording the
> "real" stuff). Another obvious example is "In Search of Little
> Sadie" which has Bob meandering through a series of odd chord
> changes apparently intended to foil the other musicians. This is
> a game musicians sometimes play with each other, sort of a "guess
> the next chord", the goal being to cause the other players to
> deliberately play the wrong note at the wrong time. This is great
> fun when you're loosening up, but not the sort of thing you release
> on an album by a major recording artist.
Okay, I'm willing to concede after listening to SP again tonight that some of what
you and others say is true. I listened more closely this time. There may be some
sloppiness and weird chord changes, but I still don't hear "a lot" of sloppy work.
Maybe some.
> Of course Dylan has sloppy moments on other albums, great ones like
> Highway 61 Revisited ("Tombstone Blues", "Queen Jane Approximately"
> with its detuned guitar) and Blonde on Blonde (lyric flubs in
> "Memphis Blues Again", a missed beat in "Sad Eyed Lady of the
> Lowlands"), but these are more than compensated for by the outstanding
> quality of the material and the dynamic performances from everyone
> involved. It is obvious to me that eveyone was doing their absolute
> best to come up with the best performances possible, including Bob
> of course.
Agreed.
> There are other moments on Self Portrait that bother me, such as
> the hilarious "The Boxer", the lackluster and amateurish "It Hurts
> Me Too", and let's not forget the sloppy (but nevertheless
> magnificient) Isle of Wight songs. Come on, you know that he
> completely mangles the final verse? I admit not all the songs are
> sloppy and ill-performed. Some are merely adequate, such as "Early
> Morning Rain" and "Living the Blues". At least one is outstanding
> ("Copper Kettle"). But add it all up and you don't have much. There
> is no "whole" there.
I still think he does a great job on Early Morning Rain, Let It Be Me and Days of
'49, regardless of the band stumbles.
> This is one of those albums I would never ever play in mixed company.
I would because a lot of my friends are not Dylan fans, at least not to the extent
that I am and some don't like him at all, so this is an album that contains a lot
of well-known songs by other artists which might sway their opinions. If nothing
else, I could get them to listen to some Dylan. :-) Some of my friends are
Lightfoot, Everly Brothers and Paul Simon fans. SP could help convert them. :-)
And John, don't come back saying "not with the sloppy versions he does" (that was
what you were going to say, wasn't it?) :-) Believe me, they wouldn't know the
difference.
> My mistake. I thought people here were saying "I love it. It's great!".
> Being merely good is a different matter, although I don't think it even
> rises to that challenge.
True. I didn't mean to generalize. Some people did say those things. However, I
personally don't think it's great, but I do think it's good.
> Okay, I regret that comment, although I indicated I didn't mean it
> as an insult, but it still came off that way. Sorry. What I really
> meant to say was that if Pat Boone or Wayne Newton had released
> this album we would all be snorting with laughter instead of trying
> to find ways to justify it. As for not everthing by Dylan is rock
> & roll, that's true but his best work has always been in that genre.
I know you didn't mean it as an insult, and I'm sorry I took it that way. However,
I love rock & roll, and I don't think my admiration of SP affects that. As for
your last statement, though, I'm still in disagreement. I never really considered
Bob to be a rock & roll singer. He's more of a folk/americana/blues singer and I
believe therein lies his greatest work.
Linn
Eben Hensby
- Eben
Linn Carpenter wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I know you didn't mean it as an insult, and I'm sorry I took it that way. However,
> I love rock & roll, and I don't think my admiration of SP affects that. As for
> your last statement, though, I'm still in disagreement. I never really considered
> Bob to be a rock & roll singer. He's more of a folk/americana/blues singer and I
> believe therein lies his greatest work.
>
> Linn
--
"Don't fall apart on me tonight,
I just don't think that I could handle it.
Don't fall apart on me tonight,
yesterday's just a memory,
tomorrow is never what it's supposed to be
and I need you, yeah."
- Bob Dylan (Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight)
tom
it's clear that bob was insane when he recorded this lackluster album
has anyone recognized that possibility yet?
i think not
imagine, to just sit down and record some songs and put them out on an album. he was
crazy not to do it very carefully or care all that much about it. i mean, it's such
an important thing, a record. a pop music recording. it moves mountains. well, it
can. that's the only possible explanation for his actions, his carelessness, his
devil-may-care oh what the hell let's just go in and sing and throw caution to the
wind. thank goodness everyone else doesn't do that, all the other great artists of
the recording industry. like my good friend peter stone brown. why, if everyone did
that, their records would then also suck balls. bob was obviously insane. crazy,
man. crazy. it's better to burn out than it is to die, man. what? huh? you people
are so kooky. you really are. oh, and no more requests for freebies. i had to send
out five extra shows after yesterday's offer. no more. i swear. however, i could
use some shows from those of you haven't sent me any. are you really planning on
blowing me off? really? that kind of sucks, you know? i mean, you're just hurting
everyone else because when i stop receiving gifts of love i'll only be giving out
freebies now and then like everyone else does. come on, folks. stop worry about the
merits of some silly pop music album, a collection of ROCK songs, and start worrying
about me, your fellow dylan fan, who would like some shows from 1983, 1991, 1993,
1994, and 1996. thank you very much. getting back to self portrait -- i think bob
may have been taken over by aliens during the recording sessions for the album. i
mean, just look at that picture on the back, he's trying to communicate with the
mother ship or something. either that, or he was loopy on the acid, sitting around
doing fingerpaintings of some really ugly guy they put on the cover. copper kettle
rules!
Brandon Zwagerman
"Eben Hensby" <ehe...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A821235...@home.com...
> Uh...if americana means what I think it means, I highly disagree.
>
Well, I guess not in the current Wilco/Son Volt/Jayhawks sense of the word,
no...
--
-Brandon
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." -Bob Dylan, "My Back
Pages"
Eben Hensby
:-)
- Eben
--
tom
if i'm saying i do not plan to offer any further gifts of love. no. please, no. please
do not misunderstand me. i'm just saying this particular round of the gift of love
bonanza special is over (we were up to the 12th, but after yesterday and today, we're now
up to the 17th rider). please don't misunderstand. and please, come on, contact me and
let me know which show you'll be sending me. if, for whatever reason, you're unable to do
that for me, at least stop being so stingy and lazy and start doing it for other people,
especially if you're a frequent trader and this is the kind of thing you can do in your
sleep. how about it? instead of bitching and moaning about some thirty year old pop
music album of cover songs, why not do something constructive, something that might
benefit your fellow dylan fan. come on, guys. come on, ladies. i mean, come on, there
was new york jake, the butcher's boy, he was always getting tight. think about it. it
hurts me too. you know? how about it? wigwam.
Linn Carpenter
According to the dictionary:
A·mer·i·ca·na (-mr-kän, -kn, -kn) n.
1.(used with a pl. verb)Materials relating to American history, folklore, or
geography or considered to be typical of American culture:
Americana are featured in the exhibit.
2.(used with a sing. verb)The culture of America: Americana reflects the
influence of many immigrations.
Seems to me this definition can relate to much of Dylan's material.
Linn
Peter Stone Brown
> Planet Waves isn't exactly his finest, but it shot to No. 1 on both
charts, thus
> confirming the effectiveness of the "chase away the fans" strategy on Self
> Portrait.
>
But you have to remember that Planet Waves had the publicity of Tour '74
going for it, and also it was a reunion with The Band. However, the
Billboard charts in those days were based on advanced orders and not actual
sales like they are now.
I worked in a major record store when Planet Waves came out and there were a
ton of returns on that album. Part of this was that hundreds of pressings
were defective. I brought back quite a few copies myself because "Tough
Mama" would constantly jump. So ultimately the album did not sell as much
as everyone thought it did, and Dylan went back to Columbia as soon as he
could.
Peter Stone Brown
> I don't know what THAT means either...
>
> :-)
>
> - Eben
>
Eben,
Americana was a term coined early in the previous decade or late in the last
century if you prefer, to define a certain kind of music that wasn't getting
played on the radio so it could get on the radio or something like that. It
was coined by an organization called the Gavin group which was largely
responsible for ruining radio to begin with. So anyway they created a
chart, which they dispensed with last year so people like Emmylou Harris,
Steve Earle, Wilco, John Prine, Johnny Cash and even me could get on a
chart.
Basically it refers to American music that has some kind of tradition behind
it, but they wanted to distinguish it from say international music which
some trendy people call roots music. So they came up with that term. It
was probably easier than calling it the Influenced by Bob, Hank Williams,
Woody Guthrie, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, Bob Wills, Ray Charles Bobby Blue
Bland, Otis Redding, Lefty Frizzell, Patsy Cline chart. So anyway now
there's all these Americana radio stations which usually are connected to
some college so no one gets radio royalties anyway, and now there's all
these Americana artists (in England they actually have Americana sections in
some record stores I went to) but they're ain't no chart. So the whole
thing is ridiculous.
Howard Mirowitz
teenager and a huge Dylan fan already. The first time I listened to the
record I actually liked it. The more I listened, the worse it seemed by
comparison to all Dylan's other albums which I already had worn out and in
some cases bought second copies of. It wasn't "cosmic" enough, it didn't
have Dylan's trademark lyrics, it mostly didn't sound like Dylan (it didn't
even sound like Nashville Skyline because his vocals weren't as polished!)
... you get the picture. Then I read the _Rolling Stone_ review and it was
like a light went on -- I DIDN"T HAVE TO LIKE IT! It was OK not to like
something by Dylan! When New Morning came out I ran right out and bought
that and I was happy as a clam. I've literally never played SP since then
... If I hadn't read that review, I probably would never have bought another
Dylan album. Thank you, Greil Marcus!
H.
"John Howells" <how...@best.com> wrote in message
news:Fgdg6.12877$1%2.62...@sjc-read.news.verio.net...
devor...@my-deja.com
I mean i like it too, but I have to agree, par for par, does need some
more emotion and tightening up, but that is what I am enjoying these
days..There is a japanese term I just found out about called, "WABI"
meaning the divine imperfection, meaning this is a good thing...so...we
are chopping garlic and onions today are we? he he...
devor...@yahoo.com
In article <iABf6.2058$iM6.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Peter Stone Brown" <ps...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> "Adam Hindman" <ad...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
> news:95mmrq$prk$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
> >
> > "Creme121" <crem...@cs.com> wrote in message
> > news:20010205083153...@ng-bj1.news.cs.com...
> > > I want people to explain just what they see or hear as BAD on this
> album?
> > In my
> > > opinion, it's great. Great to drive to, listen to at home, hear a
song
> in
> > > concert, sing in my head...it's one of my most played CD's by
Dylan.
> > Please
> > > explain it to me what is so bad.
> >
> > Ok, good to know some other people like this album. I owned it for
years
> > without ever even "knowing" it was bad; it took the internet to
tell me
> > that. :)
> >
> > Little Sadie, Days of '49, Early Morning Rain.. Very good songs.
What is
> > the problem here?
> >
>
> The problem, with a couple of exceptions is mostly substandard,
uninvolved
> and unemotional, often sloppy performances. Compare it with almost
any
> other performance of Dylan doing cover songs like "Moonshiner" for
instance
> and the difference is obvious.
>
> --
> "Where the angels' voices whisper to the souls of previous times." --
Bob
> Dylan
> Peter Stone Brown
> e-mail: ps...@earthlink.net
> http://store.yahoo.com/tangible-music/petstonbrowi.html
>
>
Howard Mirowitz
<devor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:95us07$8ke$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> I mean i like it too, but I have to agree, par for par, does need some
> more emotion and tightening up, but that is what I am enjoying these
> days..There is a japanese term I just found out about called, "WABI"
> meaning the divine imperfection, meaning this is a good thing...so...we
> are chopping garlic and onions today are we? he he...
> devor...@yahoo.com
>
Yes.
In Japan, certain people are officially designated "national treasures" for
their artistic excellence in fields such as pottery, weaving, kimono design,
flower arranging, origami and other arts and crafts of cultural significance
to Japanese. It is a tradition centuries old that artists of this caliber
intentionally make one mistake in each of their works so as not to insult
the gods who blessed them with their skill. That mistake is the "wabi".
H.
Richard
were bass filtered and mono bass to avoid tracking problems with typical
record players. Likely the case with Planet Waves. Now that we have CD's do
we duplicate the original "sound" or take advantage of the new technology?
There is no answer, but unless the remastering artist understands why the
original master and vinyl was "fixed" they can't tell if they should fix the
fix or duplicate it.
"Peter Stone Brown" <ps...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Pwqg6.136$za7....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
zavla
with a solid bass mixed hard left? I insist upon the bass being front and
center.
roland z
"Richard" <feir...@rmdtc.com> wrote in message
news:960rbu$gbp$1...@newsfeed.logical.net...
Richard
mixing mistake of putting high level low frequency sounds in one track made
headphone listening difficult and caused many phono players to spit the
record cartridge out of the track.
"zavla" <rolandzp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:960uid$j2tou$1...@ID-69727.news.dfncis.de...
raven
perfect.
robertandrews
>I insist upon the bass being front and center.
What do you mean by front?
zavla
military-speak.
"robertandrews" <robert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Zd0h6.6162$WV5.2...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
robertandrews
>Not panned either left or right in a stereo mix. "Front and center" is
military-speak.
In mixing, you'd just say center. Front could mean "up front," or louder in
the mix. It was unusual to hear a request for "up front" bass on a Dylan
group, that's why I asked what you meant.
Thanks, General!