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No one doubted that he pulled the trigger

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Will Dockery

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Sep 1, 2015, 9:30:13 AM9/1/15
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This being the Bob Dylan newsgroup, his use of the "N Word" is probably where my focus and context here should be or should have been.

When he used "N Word" (as well as the term "black folks", which may now also be unacceptable?) to rhyme with "trigger" way back in 1975, was he using the word in a more acceptable way than, say, Patti Smith, John Lennon, Richard Pryor or Obama?

Not drawing any conclusions on a wall here, just getting to... the bottom of this.

Just Walkin'

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Sep 1, 2015, 10:52:41 AM9/1/15
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We're not talking PC here Will, we're talking about destroying racism. This is largely the responsibility of people who call themselves white. Suffice it to say, just because our favorite singer says something, doesn't mean it is wise, just or right. Bob should've known better; so should we.

luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 1, 2015, 10:58:12 AM9/1/15
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My personal view is that these kinds of discussions are part of the problem in American racism. By getting twisted up in what word is allowable when by whom, where and in what context, the inequality and unfair treatment persists. What about Fuck Tha Police? Is that acceptable? Should the song be banned? Americans have a hard time facing certain indigenous problems squarely, and so they turn elsewhere...to words, to the trees not the forest, to other people's problems rather than their own. In the late 80s or 90s, there was a big "divest in S. Africa" movement here that began on college campuses and spread. The idea was that S. Africa was a racist, apartheid state, and we propped up that evil regime by doing business with them, business that was considerable. People started boycotting companies that did business with S. Africa in the hope of starving the white supremacist power elite out of existence and there was pressure for people to sell their stock in any company that did business in that country. Ultimately, it was a very successful campaign and certainly played a very important role in bringing down that regime. But what about the inequality and racism in the US while all eyes were turned toward South Africa? There's an interview with NWA on Aresenio Hall from that era. This divestment movement comes up. One of them answers pretty simply that if it's between paying your neighbor's electric bill or the electric bill of a stranger, you need to take care of your neighbor first. You see the murder rate spiking now, heroin use spiking, and people debating uses of a racial epithet. Seems like we've got our priorities backwards once again. Richard Pryor had a joke in one of his stand-up movies. He talked about his first visit to Africa and how beautiful it was to see so many black people in one place and nobody calling each other by the word "nigger," which is commonplace in certain black communities here. In Nigeria, they didn't belittle each other that way because it would make no sense in that context. It would be like people in Norway calling each other white motherfuckers. He said this really made an impact on him. It made him start thinking about the fact that the first humans actually came from the African continent. So he began to wonder what were the very first words uttered by the first man. Then it came to him. What the first man said was: "Who am I? Where do I come from? And how the hell to I get to Detroit?" There's a lot in that joke. Or, to quote Chris Rock talking about Rev. Wright--"Have you ever met a 75-year-old black man in this country that wasn't angry? I mean, they have a few reasons."

Just Walkin'

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Sep 1, 2015, 11:29:58 AM9/1/15
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The Myth of Race, the Reality of Racism, by Prof. El-Kati. Best book ever written on the subject. Explains why the problem persistsh

marcus

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Sep 1, 2015, 12:15:29 PM9/1/15
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On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 9:30:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Of the folks you mentioned, Lennon wasn't using it as an epithet. Although, I admit it is jarring to hear it being sung.

Just Walkin'

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Sep 1, 2015, 12:27:37 PM9/1/15
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Worse, he used its power to apply it to women's lib. This both legitimizes the word and equates the fight against racism with gender bias.

Will Dockery

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Sep 1, 2015, 12:29:07 PM9/1/15
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Seems to me Patti Smith's use was at least similar to Lennon's...

"Outside of society..."

But I agree, the "N Word" could and should be easily avoided in songs and poetry.

Will Dockery

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Sep 1, 2015, 12:32:09 PM9/1/15
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While Patti Smith uses it to say people such as Jackson Pollock and herself, and Jesus are like "N Word" people.

JD Chase

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Sep 1, 2015, 12:59:28 PM9/1/15
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No doubt that Patti meant well, she was trying to redefine the "N" word, to make the word palatable, somewhat similar to black people using the word, but it was a failed project... Completely agree with JW... There is just no way to erase the extremely hateful and hurtful connotations and feelings that the word evokes, at least not at this point in time...

chris

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Sep 1, 2015, 2:07:05 PM9/1/15
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On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 12:29:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

>
> But I agree, the "N Word" could and should be easily avoided in songs and poetry.

i hear this song played by my neighbors (makes me shutter inside):

This Is Gangsta Rap

Yeah, mother fucker
Sup nigga
Gangsta Rap nigga
Nigga

[Verse 1]
Nigga (x7), I'm 100% nigga
Nigga (x7), I'm 200% nigga
Nigga (x7), why do police hate niggas?
Nigga (x7), they hate us cause our dicks is bigga
Nigga (x7), why you call yourself a nigga?
Nigga (x7), cause im a mother fucking nigga!
Nigga (x7), why you drink so much beer?
Nigga (x7), I dont drink beer, I drink malt liquor

[Refrain]
Cause I'm a nigga!
Im a motherfuckin nigga man, I ain't all that african american shit
Fuck that im a nigga, I ain't mixed, I'm a nigga
N-I-G-G-A, nigga, you already know

[Verse 2]
Nigga (x7), why you eat so much chicken?
Nigga (x7), why won't you make it in my kitchen?
Nigga (x7), why you call them hoes bitches?
Nigga (x7), cause them hoes is bitches!
Nigga (x7), why you stay in the hood?
Nigga (x7), cause I dont like livin by peckerwoods
Nigga (x7), why you ain't got no job?
Nigga (x7), seven dollars an hour won't feed me dog
Nigga (x7), why yo pants gotta sag?
Nigga (x7), cause hand-me-downs downs is all a nigga has!
Nigga (x7), why you scared to go to court?
Shit, cause the judge look just like that put our ass on the boat and made me a nigga

[Refrain]
Mama Rag is a nigga
Durag is a nigga
Ballstics is a nigga
And I'm Uretha's nigga
Nigga!

nate

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Sep 1, 2015, 2:18:18 PM9/1/15
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What about Randy Newman's "The Yellow Man"???


Very far away in a foreign land
Live the yellow woman and the yellow man
He's been around for many a year
They say they were there before we were here

Eatin' rice all day
While the children play
You see he believes in the family
Just like you and me

Oh, yellow man, oh, yellow man
We understand, you know we understand
He keeps his money tight in his hand

With his yellow woman he's a yellow man
Got to have a yellow woman
When you're a yellow man



- nate

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 2:21:38 PM9/1/15
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I never understood why Asians were referred to as yellow. They don't look yellow to me. :-/

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 2:22:32 PM9/1/15
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And even if they were, so what?

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 2:33:39 PM9/1/15
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peopel can be whatever color they wanna be!

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 2:37:23 PM9/1/15
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i heard that the real jesus wore polka dots!

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 3:03:44 PM9/1/15
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Who or what is a Uretha?!?!?!?!

nate

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Sep 1, 2015, 3:29:55 PM9/1/15
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a terrible amalgam of Aretha Franklin and urethra, the tube in the penis that pees and inseminates. TerrrrRRRRIBLE.


- nate

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 3:35:06 PM9/1/15
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i guess i.t was just an Unfortunate Accident, then?

Just Kidding

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Sep 1, 2015, 3:49:13 PM9/1/15
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It's a word. Pretending it doesn't exist won't erase it from history.

Just Walkin'

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Sep 1, 2015, 5:25:06 PM9/1/15
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Patti's usage was more pompous. Lennon at least compared people who were bought and sold as commodities with women who have also been objectified through history, albeit in a different way. Patti used it to include rock and rollers and the like, culturecrats. Talk about self-glorification; I guess she feels her oppression as an artist is right up there with 400 years of slavery...

Did Arista have her in leg irons until her records sold?

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 5:28:27 PM9/1/15
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Sometimes people can suffer so much internally, and it's impossible to see or know or understand.

Speaking as one who's been there, not looking for pity.

gj

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Sep 1, 2015, 5:39:16 PM9/1/15
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On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 11:18:16 -0700 (PDT), nate <grey...@net1plus.com>
wrote:

>What about Randy Newman's "The Yellow Man"???

Short people and now this. Think he's paranoid?

-GJ 2.0

gj

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Sep 1, 2015, 5:41:24 PM9/1/15
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On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:29:04 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
<will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

>But I agree, the "N Word" could and should be easily avoided in songs and poetry.

Unless you need to rhyme something with 'trigger'.

Funny thing, even growing up in the south, I have no memory of ever
hearing that word until a few years into school. I guess that's a
testament to my folks.

-GJ 2.0

Just Walkin'

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Sep 1, 2015, 5:51:49 PM9/1/15
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Singin' I feel your pain. All of us have tales to tell. We all have the blues at one time or another.

But the power to universalize the pain one feels from chosen rather than assigned lifestyles is a privilege that people who call themselves white have that most others do not.

Moreover, here, in this country, this tale is paid to be told; if it ain't making someone money, you'll probably never hear it.

That is why most people know nothing about the indigenous people of our continent.

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 6:06:10 PM9/1/15
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i don't think he pulled the trigger...*If* you know what i mean...?

sometimes peeple make mistakes! :-O! :)

Just Walkin'

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Sep 1, 2015, 6:21:29 PM9/1/15
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Reminds me of the Joan (since you brought her up) Baez parody on the National Lampoon Radio Dinner album:

"Pull the triggers, n*****s
We're with you all the way
Just across the bay"

Do I have that right Professor Dudley?

marcus

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Sep 1, 2015, 8:50:10 PM9/1/15
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I always interpreted the lyrics as stating that even among a people oppressed, women are oppressed by the oppressed males.

Lennon explained it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYjEz441I4M

And sings it at MSQ in August 1972

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW5vsmZCR1o

DianeE

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Sep 1, 2015, 9:39:25 PM9/1/15
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"gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:in6cua5fga9kuid3o...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:29:04 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
> <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>But I agree, the "N Word" could and should be easily avoided in songs and
>>poetry.
>
> Unless you need to rhyme something with 'trigger'.
-----------------
Bigger rhymes with trigger and isn't offensive.

No one doubted that he fired the fatal shot.
No one doubted that he was the slayer.
There are plenty of other ways to say it.

DianeE


Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 9:42:41 PM9/1/15
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Wow, Diane.

That's the one I thought of, too.

I thought, bigger rhymes with trigger.

M. Rick

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Sep 1, 2015, 10:04:52 PM9/1/15
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> I always interpreted the lyrics as stating that even among a people oppressed, women are oppressed by the oppressed males.

Women are oppressed by just about all men. Men are in the oppression business. Some of these oppressive men call it "gender bias." But they don't say "white bias" or "black bias."

Just Walkin'

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Sep 1, 2015, 10:05:09 PM9/1/15
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Tell it Cleopatra, Catherine the Great and Queen Victoria.

M. Rick

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Sep 1, 2015, 10:15:17 PM9/1/15
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The most common "N" word in music isn't nigger. It's nigga. As far as I can tell the meaning is "black person" and "black brother/sister." It is not an insult unless used in an insulting context. But it draws a clear racial line, and an attractive one to non-black listeners who can sing along with the black rappers but aren't permitted to write "nigga" songs. Spike Lee said this is analogous to blackface. But the modern twist is that banning whites from full participation leads to greater interest in those black musicians.

Will Dockery

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Sep 1, 2015, 10:46:37 PM9/1/15
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It just dawned on me that Jaques Levy might have, probably, or is said to have, written the lyrics, or most of them, to "Hurricane"?

http://www.cinchreview.com/jacques-levy-bob-dylan-desire/9825/

If so, Dylan is more guilty of a lapse in judgement, or laziness, or something rather than being the man who actually WROTE the "N Word" in that song.

Sounds better that way to me.

:D

Will Dockery

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Sep 1, 2015, 11:08:01 PM9/1/15
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Yeah, maybe Jaques Levy threw in the whole "trigger" couplet.

Interesting stuff in the Lvy interview, such as:

"...The whole mood of the collaboration seems to have emanated from "One More Cup of Coffee," which Dylan had already written and played to Levy early on. (2) In writing the songs, Dylan and Levy didn't stop and analyze everything and try to nail down what things meant to one or the other; they were rather two wordsmiths coming up with lines that either sounded good or not so good and they were content to let the mystery of meaning recline in its special place. Levy also has some nice observations about musical details, including Emmylou Harris's harmony vocals on the album. Her singing on Desire is so otherworldly, so ethereal and so heartbreaking ... and, as Levy describes, all the more amazing because it was utterly spontaneous."

And so it went.

Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 11:49:46 PM9/1/15
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You OBviouSLY don't know what i mean!

How can you be so obtuse?

i'm trying to implement a little discretion here.

this isn't exactly coffee tawk, ya know! now i'm all ferklempt.

you must be a stupid idiot? :-( (like me :-( )

luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 1, 2015, 11:53:32 PM9/1/15
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On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
The Hurricane line is so effective because it accurately depicts the mindset of some of the black community when Carter was on trial, showing how they too had convicted them in their minds. It is...dare I say it?--art. It isn't gratuitous or exploitative. Very good.

There have always been plenty of priests out there--some from Christian churches, some from PC churches--who want to control people for the "good" of society, and language is great for that. When they're done preaching, they go diddle some teenage boys. Then they come back and remind us that we're sinners. We all know the score. O that we were so lucky that that word was the big racial problem we had to deal with in this country. lol. But hey--if the n-word offendeth a person, they shouldn't use it. Also avoid Tarantino films and lots of rap. Just don't commit the error of thinking that that's improved the racial scandal in this country by even a jot. Now--punch out a white guy who just called a total stranger "you nigger?" I will shake your hand because you actually have improved the racial injustice problem. Use a color blind application policy in the HR of your company? I'm buying you a very expensive dinner. Stop putting black kids in the "dumb kids" class in your elementary school because they tend to be louder than white kids? Honey, you have made a REAL difference and deserve a season opera ticket. And so it goes. The rest is noise--literally.


Rachel

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Sep 1, 2015, 11:57:21 PM9/1/15
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i'm trying to find this quote, but something about walk the road where there is no If or when.

what quote is that? i'm trying to make a point here.

singin' in the rain...nobody feels any pain....? why can't i find that quote about no if or when or something?

well, now y'all know what i mean, jelly beans!

blah blah blah i wish i could remember that song.

too bad about the book of bob. that was great. :-(((

Rachel

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Sep 2, 2015, 12:04:15 AM9/2/15
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Hey, I found it!

Trust yourself to find the Path where there is no If and when. hee hee hee?

Trust yourself! trust *me*? :)

Sometimes I'm really retarded! :-D

Will Dockery

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Sep 2, 2015, 12:14:12 AM9/2/15
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We are idiots, babe, it's a wonder we can even feed ourselves.

:D

Will Dockery

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Sep 2, 2015, 12:28:30 AM9/2/15
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On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 11:53:32 PM UTC-4, luisb...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> > "gj" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:in6cua5fga9kuid3o...@4ax.com...
> > > On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:29:04 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
> > > <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>But I agree, the "N Word" could and should be easily avoided in songs and
> > >>poetry.
> > >
> > > Unless you need to rhyme something with 'trigger'.
> > -----------------
> > Bigger rhymes with trigger and isn't offensive.
> >
> > No one doubted that he fired the fatal shot.
> > No one doubted that he was the slayer.
> > There are plenty of other ways to say it.
>
> The Hurricane line is so effective because it accurately depicts the mindset of some of the black community when Carter was on trial, showing how they too had convicted them in their minds. It is...dare I say it?--art. It > isn't gratuitous or exploitative. Very good.

It can be argued that no other word that rhymes with "trigger" would have had the power that the N Word had here, you have a point.

"All the folks, black and white, did was snigger
No one doubted that he pulled the trigger.
And though they could not produce the gun...
the DA said he was the one
who
did the deed...
And the all-white jury agreed!"

Cue mournful but urgent "All Along The Watchtower" violin, bass, drums... I have to admit Desire, and the Hurricane single some time before it, blew me away, made me a fevered Dylan follower until... well, in some ways I still am one.

:D

M. Rick

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Sep 2, 2015, 4:43:12 AM9/2/15
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> The Hurricane line is so effective because it accurately depicts the mindset of some of the black community when Carter was on trial, showing how they too had convicted them in their minds.

It's a potent line but I'm not sure it's an accurate depiction.

Will Dockery

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Sep 2, 2015, 8:02:07 AM9/2/15
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On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 4:43:12 AM UTC-4, M. Rick wrote:
> > The Hurricane line is so effective because it accurately depicts the mindset of some of the black community when Carter was on trial, showing how they too had convicted them in their minds.
>
> It's a potent line but I'm not sure it's an accurate depiction.

Maybe the same can be said that probably not all the white folks who watched saw him as a "revolutionary bum", either, though.

luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 2, 2015, 4:09:25 PM9/2/15
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On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 4:43:12 AM UTC-4, M. Rick wrote:
> > The Hurricane line is so effective because it accurately depicts the mindset of some of the black community when Carter was on trial, showing how they too had convicted them in their minds.
>
> It's a potent line but I'm not sure it's an accurate depiction.

If the people referred to in the line did NOT perceive Carter as whacked out, crazy, loose canon, whatever, and if their opinion wasn't against him during that trial, then yeah, it's inaccurate. I take the song at face value and have not read accounts of the city's reaction Carter's trial. I read an article way back about Carter being a ruffian who people feared and disliked in NY magazine or something similar. But if the people didn't see him that way, why depict them that way? If they were on his side, to say that would have made the song stronger, what?

M. Rick

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Sep 2, 2015, 10:43:07 PM9/2/15
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>I take the song at face value and have not read accounts of the city's reaction Carter's trial.

So if I take a song like Joey at face value, or Jesse James, I'm entitled to call these songs accurate depictions.

luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 3, 2015, 3:08:33 AM9/3/15
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On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 10:43:07 PM UTC-4, M. Rick wrote:
-
> >I take the song at face value and have not read accounts of the city's reaction Carter's trial.
>
> So if I take a song like Joey at face value, or Jesse James, I'm entitled to call these songs accurate depictions.

No. Joey Gallo was a pig. That was widely known. Dylan was an idiot to lionize him like that. Or are you okay with that but not okay with the word "nigger?" I think you're missing the point, however. The point about the line isn't that taking the song at face value entitles you to anything. The point is that his phrasing is a very accurate depiction of an anti-Carter mindset--if that's how people actually felt. Obviously, if he's misreporting how they saw him, the song is as ridiculous as Joey and it's a stupid gratuitous line. Duh? Saying I take the song at face value is neither here nor there. There's a whole website dedicated to dismantling the lyrics of Hurricane line by line. The author thinks there's zero accuracy in the song. For all I know he's right. Hey man, sorry I don't tow whatever party line you demand anyone who posts here tow. I'm sure there are many monolithic echo chambers on this vast internet where you will find the choir happily singing to itself.

Will Dockery

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Sep 3, 2015, 11:03:53 AM9/3/15
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Again, I wonder if Dylan would have ever written a song about Joey Gallo if Jacques Levy had not been involved.

Hurricane Carter, maybe, but Joey seemed then and now a bit of a stretch.

Either way, he did sing those lyrics, so he took responsibility for them.

As for language, Hurricane was also the second (and only?) time Dylan used the word "shit" in a song... that always seemed curious to me, for some reason.

M. Rick

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Sep 3, 2015, 3:14:14 PM9/3/15
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>Or are you okay with that but not okay with the word "nigger?"

I'm OK with the line in Hurricane. I'm not sure it's an accurate depiction, though. I don't take songs about famous people at "face value."

Will Dockery

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Sep 3, 2015, 3:35:40 PM9/3/15
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On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 3:14:14 PM UTC-4, M. Rick wrote:
> >Or are you okay with that but not okay with the word "nigger?"
>
> I'm OK with the line in Hurricane. I'm not sure it's an accurate depiction, though. I don't take songs about famous people at "face value."

It would probably look better if he was quoting someone, put "crazy n-----" in quotes.

luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 3, 2015, 4:30:17 PM9/3/15
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On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 3:14:14 PM UTC-4, M. Rick wrote:
> >Or are you okay with that but not okay with the word "nigger?"
-
> I'm OK with the line in Hurricane. I'm not sure it's an accurate depiction, though. I don't take songs about famous people at "face value."

I'm not either.

Will Dockery

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Sep 4, 2015, 12:03:32 PM9/4/15
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I probably need to watch that movie about the Hurricane again, I'm pretty sure that's how folks see Carter nowadays.

JD Chase

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Sep 4, 2015, 1:11:42 PM9/4/15
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On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 3:08:33 AM UTC-4, luisb...@aol.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 10:43:07 PM UTC-4, M. Rick wrote:
> -
> > >I take the song at face value and have not read accounts of the city's reaction Carter's trial.
> >
> > So if I take a song like Joey at face value, or Jesse James, I'm entitled to call these songs accurate depictions.
>
> No. Joey Gallo was a pig. That was widely known. Dylan was an idiot to lionize him like that

Lester Bangs certainly shared your opinion about that!





luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 4, 2015, 8:42:20 PM9/4/15
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On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 1:11:42 PM UTC-4, JD Chase wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 3:08:33 AM UTC-4, luisb...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 10:43:07 PM UTC-4, M. Rick wrote:
> > -
> > > >I take the song at face value and have not read accounts of the city's reaction Carter's trial.
> > >
> > > So if I take a song like Joey at face value, or Jesse James, I'm entitled to call these songs accurate depictions.
--
> > No. Joey Gallo was a pig. That was widely known. Dylan was an idiot to lionize him like that
>
> Lester Bangs certainly shared your opinion about that!

You're not kidding. That's a brutal article. Wow.

Will Dockery

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Sep 5, 2015, 11:48:31 AM9/5/15
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On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 1:11:42 PM UTC-4, JD Chase wrote:
Oh yeah, that long essay by Lester Bangs where he raked Bob Dylan over the coals (I read it in Creem Magazine, must have been in 1976) is a classic... but I still enjoy "Joey" as a song, since I also love Martin Scorcese movies and other examples of that genre Dylan and Levy were working in.

Will Dockery

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Sep 5, 2015, 11:52:03 AM9/5/15
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It was just the Lester Bangs style, he was full of bluster but he did it out of love, I think... he got really twisted in agony when his heroes failed to live up to whatever standards he had set for them.

The Lou Reed interviews and reviews by Lester Bangs are even more incredible, infamous, and legendary... as Lou Reed came kicking Lester back through two, maybe three epic sized Creem Magazine articles.

Will Dockery

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Sep 13, 2015, 1:23:25 AM9/13/15
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Keith Richards on Race relations in America:

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/magazine-feature/6692390/billboard-cover-keith-richards-mick-jagger-the-rolling-stones-donald-trump-drugs-grateful-dead

"I don't think you can heal racism with the stroke of a pen. Or even with a generation or two. It has to come organically, really. All I know is that I've had more fun with black people than with white people..."

luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 13, 2015, 1:49:50 AM9/13/15
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Cultural appropriation's a lot of fun, eh Keith?

Will Dockery

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Sep 13, 2015, 1:53:18 AM9/13/15
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Rock-N-Roll is fun, I won't lie about it.

:D

Just Walkin'

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Sep 13, 2015, 1:19:46 PM9/13/15
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The problem is that the legislation passed in the sixties to remediate the effects of racism only served to reinforce the false concepts of race as a necessary coefficient of its execution. As such, the legislative agenda was designed to fail over time as it didn't take into account the economic generator of the problem to begin with.

marcus

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Sep 13, 2015, 1:54:45 PM9/13/15
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And the assassination of King when he, publicly, connected the dots.

Just Walkin'

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Sep 13, 2015, 2:22:03 PM9/13/15
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ANYONE who connects the dots.

That's why we talk in dots!

RichL

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Sep 13, 2015, 6:20:09 PM9/13/15
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"Just Walkin'" <kens...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2adeb397-eb86-49b4...@googlegroups.com...
Gotta disagree on that one. If that were the premise, the conclusion would
be that if economic inequality disappeared, so would racism.

No doubt that economic status correlates strongly with race. Improving
economic inequality is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for
eliminating racism.

Just Walkin'

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Sep 13, 2015, 8:34:15 PM9/13/15
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On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 5:20:09 PM UTC-5, RichL wrote:
>
> > The problem is that the legislation passed in the sixties to remediate the
> > effects of racism only served to reinforce the false concepts of race as a
> > necessary coefficient of its execution. As such, the legislative agenda
> > was designed to fail over time as it didn't take into account the economic
> > generator of the problem to begin with.
>
> Gotta disagree on that one. If that were the premise, the conclusion would
> be that if economic inequality disappeared, so would racism.
>
> No doubt that economic status correlates strongly with race. Improving
> economic inequality is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for
> eliminating racism.

I didn't say anything about economic inequality.

I said that our economic system is the generator of racism and that without changing that, legislative attempts to remediate its effects were doomed to fail. I also said that racism was built on the myth of race and that to remediate its effects without getting to the cause is also doomed to fail as it will only, necessarily, reinforce notions of race for the alleged remediative relief to be made available in the first place.

Check out the way we fund schools to get a whiff of what I am talking about.

luisb...@aol.com

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Sep 13, 2015, 11:51:14 PM9/13/15
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Do you believe that King, for example in his I have a dream speech, was saying that blacks deserved an equal share of the pie first and foremost? Or do you believe like some misguided souls then and now, that first we have to solve the white racism problem before we can address economic inequality? Of course they go hand in hand...that's a given. But where do you start? What do you believe King's "promissory note" referred to?

Rachel

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Sep 14, 2015, 1:34:41 AM9/14/15
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IT MEANS THAT NOBODY GIVES A DAMN ABOUT THE BLACK WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

M. Rick

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Sep 14, 2015, 4:54:03 AM9/14/15
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The race is to get all you can before you cross the finish line.

RichL

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Sep 14, 2015, 4:00:40 PM9/14/15
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<luisb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:dc1cb507-c183-4290...@googlegroups.com...
I believe that we're not stuck doing just one thing at a time.

I also believe that there is no government policy consistent with our
Constitution that "solves" white racism, or any other kind of racism. There
are, however, government policies that would address outright discrimination
of an official nature (e.g., reversing efforts in certain states to restrict
access to the polls which have discriminatory effects).

I believe that Dr. King would be astounded at the Supreme Court declaring
certain sections of the Voting Rights Act unconstitutional. I also believe
that blacks deserve an equal share of the pie. I don't see these things as
being contradictory.

Just Walkin'

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Sep 14, 2015, 6:35:55 PM9/14/15
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I believe that to fight racism, we must provide the conditions for economic equality, not just provide economic equality itself. But that will require a change in our economic system because it has been based and grown on a series of inequalities, the myth of race being central to the construct.

Again, I highly recommend the book The Myth of Race, The Reality of Racism by Prof. M. El-Kati as a primer on the issue of race. I also refer your attention to any one of a number of W. E. B. DuBois' works on what he called "abolition democracy" to better understand why political or social freedom without leveling the economic playing field doesn't result in either freedom or democracy at all.

Will Dockery

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Dec 6, 2015, 4:55:42 PM12/6/15
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Patti Smith discusses he use of the "N word" in a Penthouse Magazine interview with Nick Tosches, Penthouse, April '76

http://www.oceanstar.com/patti/intervus/760400ph.htm

"Every time I say the word pussy at a poetry reading, some idiot broad rises and has a fit. "What's your definition of pussy, sister?" I dunno, it's a slang term. If I wanna say pussy, I'll say pussy. If I wanna say n*****, I'll say n*****. If somebody wants to call me a cracker bitch, that's cool. It's all part of being American. But all these tight-assed movements are fucking up our slang, and that eats it..." -Patti Smith

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