Dylan on Heroin
don freeman
it was all a fantasy of Weberman's. I thought it was pretty obvious from
Dylan's lyrics that he had been taking heroin in the 60s.
In "Absolutely Sweet Marie," just what else but heroin were those:
"six white horses that you did promise
Were finally delivered down to the penitentiary
But to live outside the law, you must be honest"
Wasn't it "horse" that Bob was shooting into his railroad gate, the one
he couldn't jump?
What else was Bob mainlining:
"When he built a fire on Main Street
And shot it full of holes"
True, there is also a lot of amphetamine imagery in "Blonde on Blonde,"
but when he was writing "Sad Eyed Lady," doesn't it sound like a heroin
addiction he was trying to cure?
"I'd taken the cure and had just gotten through,"
"Stayin' up for days in the Chelsea Hotel,"
I had always assumed that Bob was vomiting on heroin in the back of that
limousine with John Lennon.
And I always thought that "Shooting Star" referred to a needle habit,
but that just might be the weberman in me.
Bloomeenee
>And I always thought that "Shooting Star" referred to a needle habit,
>but that just might be the weberman in me.
I should certainly hope so.
Wolfds
>I've been reading here that people think Dylan never took heroin, that
>it was all a fantasy of Weberman's. I thought it was pretty obvious from
>Dylan's lyrics that he had been taking heroin in the 60s.
>
>
>In "Absolutely Sweet Marie," just what else but heroin were those:
>
> "six white horses that you did promise
> Were finally delivered down to the penitentiary
> But to live outside the law, you must be honest"
>
>Wasn't it "horse" that Bob was shooting into his railroad gate, the one
>he couldn't jump?
>
>What else was Bob mainlining:
>
> "When he built a fire on Main Street
> And shot it full of holes"
>
>
>True, there is also a lot of amphetamine imagery in "Blonde on Blonde,"
>but when he was writing "Sad Eyed Lady," doesn't it sound like a heroin
>addiction he was trying to cure?
>
>
> "I'd taken the cure and had just gotten through,"
> "Stayin' up for days in the Chelsea Hotel,"
>
>
>I had always assumed that Bob was vomiting on heroin in the back of that
>limousine with John Lennon.
>
>And I always thought that "Shooting Star" referred to a needle habit,
>but that just might be the weberman in me.
>
While I'd agree that there's plenty of heroin references in Dylan's work (e.g.,
I think that's the "rain" people are expecting when not making love, etc.), I
don't know if it necessarily follows that Bob was being "self-referential" (not
in the singer-songwriter sense you suggested a week ago, but just in general).
Even in the song Sara, which we can reasonably interpret to be
autobiographical, Dylan is apparently mixing fact with fiction, as nobody seems
to believe he stayed up for days in the Chelsea Hotel writing SELotL, but more
likely wrote it in the studio while his recording band played cards.
The main point is, I think, that Dylan has never admitted using heroin, and
singing about it (if indeed he is) does not amount to proof of use.
Dave
KReilly
>
> "six white horses that you did promise
> Were finally delivered down to the penitentiary
> But to live outside the law, you must be honest"
>
>Wasn't it "horse" that Bob was shooting into his railroad gate, the one
>he couldn't jump?
>
>What else was Bob mainlining:
>
> "When he built a fire on Main Street
> And shot it full of holes"
>
I hope you realize that these are not straightforward interpretations you're
making.
Neil W. McKinlay
On 24 Sep 1999, Wolfds wrote:
> Even in the song Sara, which we can reasonably interpret to be
> autobiographical, Dylan is apparently mixing fact with fiction, as nobody seems
> to believe he stayed up for days in the Chelsea Hotel writing SELotL, but more
> likely wrote it in the studio while his recording band played cards.
You know, this has always been a bit of bother to me, this claim that
'Sara' cannot be completely autobiographical because we all know he wrote
'Sad' in a Nashville studio. I don't hear him contradicting this at all in
the song. If you dig out your copy of 'Lyrics' and look at verse three
(Sleepin in the woods...), you'll notice it features four distinct memory
images separated by commas. That is, the singer recalls:
1) Sleepin in the woods
2) Drinkin white rum
3) Them playin leapfrog
4) You in the marketplace.
That these memories are distinct from one another seems obvious to me -
they are separated by time (ie: sleepin vs drinkin) and place (ie:
Portugal vs Savanna-la-Mar), joined only by Sara. The writer has simply
chosen (for whatever reason) to link/divide them with commas.
The same sort writing is evident in verse four, where the autobiographical
confusions always seem to arise. Once again, we are offered four distinct
memory images separated by commas:
1) ...those Methodist bells
2) I'd taken the cure
3) Stayin up for days
4) Writin Sad.
Given the structure and content of verse three, I find it highly unlikley
that 'Stayin up for days in the Chelsea Hotel' and 'Writin 'SELotL" for
you' are being presented as a single image. Rather they are, to repeat
myself, distinct memories separated by time and place, distinct memories
joined only by Sara, distinct memories that the author has chosen to
divide/link with a comma. Thus, any arguement regarding this song's
fictional nature that bases its claim upon Dylan's writing 'Sad' in
Nashville and not the Chelsea is, in my opinion, mute as he never suggests
otherwise, never once contradicts what seems an accurate historical
record!
Whew! Glad to get that off my chest!
Now, what any of this has to do with Bob and horses, I don't know!
Cheers,
Neil
Bloomeenee
>You know, this has always been a bit of bother to me, this claim that
>'Sara' cannot be completely autobiographical because we all know he wrote
>'Sad' in a Nashville studio.
It's always possible that he worked on it for days in the Chelsea Hotel, but
never quite got it right. He never got a decent version written until that day
in the recording studio.
Or was the Denver hotel tape made before the day in Nashville?
Alan Fraser
The song was recorded in Nashville on 16 Feb. The Denver hotel tape
was recorded during the night of 12-13 March.
Alan
Wolfds
>You know, this has always been a bit of bother to me, this claim that
>'Sara' cannot be completely autobiographical because we all know he wrote
An interesting bit of analysis, but one which, in the end, I must reject.
While the argument can be made that verse 3 contains four discrete thoughts
(it's debatable, IMO), to ipso facto impute this to the next verse ignores
verses 1, 2, and 5 which are not discrete:
Verse 1:
1) Laying on a dune, looking at the sky;
2) >>When<< the children were babies, playing on the beach;
3) Sara came up behind him, he watches her go by;
4) She was so close & still within reach.
Verse 2 is even more obviously one memory:
1) Seeing the children playing in the sand w/ their pails(a link to the first
verse);
2) running to the water, filling those same pails;
3) Shells from the beach falling out of their hands;
4) Following each other back up the hill.
Verse 5 is a discrete memory/thought, too.
Is there more of a reason to believe verse 4 follows a pattern arguably used in
one of the song's verses, or a pattern used in its three other verses? I'd
have to go with the latter--in other words, Dylan is most certainly saying he
stayed up for days in the Chelsea hotel writing SELotL (IMO).
Dave
Neil W. McKinlay
> An interesting bit of analysis, but one which, in the end, I must reject.
> While the argument can be made that verse 3 contains four discrete thoughts
> (it's debatable, IMO), to ipso facto impute this to the next verse ignores
> verses 1, 2, and 5 which are not discrete:
Whew! Seems we got a bit of a chat going here:
First, about verse 3 offering four discrete thoughts, it seems to me
highly unlikely one would 'sleep in the woods' at anytime even
remotely like the same time one was 'drinkin..in a..bar,' 'playin'
leapfrog,' or being 'in the marketplace.' Add to this the fact
Savanna-la-Mar is nowhere near Portugal and I have to
stick with four - not three, not two, not one - separate memory images.
Second, in imputing (had to look that one up) this 'four thought'
hypothesis to verse four, I am not ignoring verses one, two and five, but
noticing that three and four share a punctuation style these others do
not and suggesting this distinction has some meaning. More
precisely, I'm suggesting the distinction exists because the different
verses offer qualitatively different content - one and two offer, as you
point out, one or two memories, while three and four each offer four
distinct recollections (five seems less memory and more internal dialogue
to me, so I'm going to drop it from consideration here).
> Is there more of a reason to believe verse 4 follows a pattern arguably used in
> one of the song's verses, or a pattern used in its three other verses? I'd
> have to go with the latter--in other words, Dylan is most certainly saying he
> stayed up for days in the Chelsea hotel writing SELotL (IMO).
This, however, ignores the facts that one and two share a punctuation
scheme, that three and four share a punctuation scheme, and that these two
schemes are significantly different! And it seems to me that while my
interpretation accounts for these differences (and, at least to a
certain extent, for geographical truth and our known historical record),
yours does not. So me,after some thought and head-scratchin', I gotta
stick with my assertion that the author
most certainly is not suggesting he composed 'Sad' in the Chelsea
and, thus, does not shatter the possibility 'Sara' is a rare instance of
unmasked biography in the recorded work of Bob Dylan.
Besides, the song seems so touchingly sincere...haven't you always in
your heart of hearts just wanted it to be 'true?'
Til We Meet Again,
Neil
Greg Wallace
mid-sixties but 'six white horses' and 'the cure' are pretty thin evidence
for smack. Ole crazy Weberman wanted some political stuff outta Bob and
that's why spread that rumor around. And I believe the rumor was Dylan on
smack in 1971, with no corroboration from anyone else.
'TomThumb' might be more evidence for smack, might not. I always believed
'Sad-Eyed Lady' was referring to a drug transaction but I can't prove it. I
never knew what 'warehouse eyes' and 'arabian drums' were but they sound
like slang for chemicals in pill form.
don freeman wrote in message <37EB8CE3...@home.com>...
>I've been reading here that people think Dylan never took heroin, that
>it was all a fantasy of Weberman's. I thought it was pretty obvious from
>Dylan's lyrics that he had been taking heroin in the 60s.
>
>
>In "Absolutely Sweet Marie," just what else but heroin were those:
>
> "six white horses that you did promise
> Were finally delivered down to the penitentiary
> But to live outside the law, you must be honest"
>
>Wasn't it "horse" that Bob was shooting into his railroad gate, the one
>he couldn't jump?
>
>What else was Bob mainlining:
>
> "When he built a fire on Main Street
> And shot it full of holes"
>
>
ALIAS
don freeman <dfr...@home.com> wrote:
> I've been reading here that people think Dylan never took heroin, that
> it was all a fantasy of Weberman's. I thought it was pretty obvious
> from Dylan's lyrics that he had been taking heroin in the 60s.
> In "Absolutely Sweet Marie," just what else but heroin were those:
> "six white horses that you did promise
> Were finally delivered down to the penitentiary
> But to live outside the law, you must be honest"
> Wasn't it "horse" that Bob was shooting into his railroad gate, the
one
> he couldn't jump?
Well it has to be true if it's coming from a reliable garbologist like
Weberman. Who else has Dylan and Beavis and Butthead on the same web
page? The man is a genius. I was shocked to see in his interpretation
of Highlands that the line "I'm listening to Neil Young, I gotta turn
up the sound" actually meant he was listening to Neil Young. I
expected Weberman to say it meant, "Dylan was shooting up with Neil
because every musician is an addict." He has a lot of fantasies
especially the one where he claims he was friends with Dylan.
--
"What's your name?"
"Well that's a good question."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Black Swann
> The main point is, I think, that Dylan has never admitted using heroin, and
> singing about it (if indeed he is) does not amount to proof of use.
>
> Dave
My point is, I think is that dylan has never admitted to anything,ever. It seems
that he has never given a straight interview to anyone about anything and that is
the key to dylan.
Did bob go looking for woody or did woody summon bob?
Tom
"Well, my heart's in the Highlands at the break of day
Over the hills and far away
There's a way to get there, and I'll figure it out somehow
But I'm already there in my mind
And that's good enough for now- dylan
KReilly
>record!
We have no compelling reason to assume the details are or are not historically
acurate.
KReilly
>unmasked biography in the recorded work of Bob Dylan.
>
>Besides, the song seems so touchingly sincere...haven't you always in
>your heart of hearts just wanted it to be 'true?'
>
I agree here, it's a possibility. However, wanting something to be true
shouldn't be a significant factor in one's interpretation. I'd love Santa Claus
to be true.
KReilly
>mid-sixties
Amphetamines, I believe. Listen to 5/27/66, it's even called amphetamine-soaked
music.
C. S.
knowledge) I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't need something like
smack to bring him back down out of the stratosphere.Just look at how
amazingly skinny he was during that time plus all those irritable moods
he was in during interviews w/ the press.A lot of rock stars from that
period will tell ya,one of the main reasons they got into heroin was
because they got so sick of being on the trot for 3,4,5 days at a time
due to coke and speed and the like,they needed rest..(esp. Keith
Richards,Eric Clapton).And man,I guess they got it.I wouldn't be
surprised if he dabbled a bit.
John Lettiere
(Phenobarb) or hash
to mellow out. Usually the former. It's quicker.
red devils
goof balls
yellow jackets
block busters
pinks
reds and blues
Christmas trees
I guess you people never used drugs huh?
"Just look at how amazingly skinny he was during that time plus all those
irritable moods"
Classic speed symptoms. Benzedrine/Dexedrine makes you so hyper your body
feels
like you were shot full of electricity. You never shut up. speech is
accelerated. You
don't ever think about food. And it make you overly aggressive.
Amphetamines- speed, uppers, black beauties, pep pills, copilots, hearts,
benzedrine,
dexedrine, footballs and biphetamine.
Stimulants can cause
Increased heart and respiratory rates
Elevated blood pressure
Dilated pupils
Decreased appetite
Sweating
Headaches
Blurred vision
Dizziness
Sleeplessness
Anxiety
Restlessness
Anxiousness
Moodiness
Where do you think the phase "he's wired" comes from? It ain't because he a
electrician!
--
John Lettiere, GM
Preferred Computing Inc.
"You Don't Need A Weatherman To Know Which Way The Wind Blows"... Bob Dylan
http://www.imagineradio.com/mymusiclisten.asp?name=Jlet
C. S. <Chris...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28843-37...@newsd-621.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
KReilly
>Increased heart and respiratory rates
>Elevated blood pressure
>Dilated pupils
>Decreased appetite
>Sweating
>Headaches
>Blurred vision
>Dizziness
>Sleeplessness
>Anxiety
>Restlessness
>Anxiousness
>Moodiness
>
Oddly enough, they can help you focus as well.
Diana
sleeping pills or tranquilizers can bring you DOWN :)
John Lettiere wrote:
> You don't shoot heroin to come down from using speed. You use Barbiturates
> (Phenobarb) or hash
> to mellow out. Usually the former. It's quicker.
>
> red devils
> goof balls
> yellow jackets
> block busters
> pinks
> reds and blues
> Christmas trees
>
> I guess you people never used drugs huh?
>
> "Just look at how amazingly skinny he was during that time plus all those
> irritable moods"
>
> Classic speed symptoms. Benzedrine/Dexedrine makes you so hyper your body
> feels
> like you were shot full of electricity. You never shut up. speech is
> accelerated. You
> don't ever think about food. And it make you overly aggressive.
>
> Amphetamines- speed, uppers, black beauties, pep pills, copilots, hearts,
> benzedrine,
> dexedrine, footballs and biphetamine.
>
> Stimulants can cause
> Increased heart and respiratory rates
> Elevated blood pressure
> Dilated pupils
> Decreased appetite
> Sweating
> Headaches
> Blurred vision
> Dizziness
> Sleeplessness
> Anxiety
> Restlessness
> Anxiousness
> Moodiness
>
Baby Lee
>>I thought it was pretty obvious
>> from Dylan's lyrics that he had been taking heroin in the 60s.
Actually the songs that are obviously about heroin are "In the
Garden," "Precious Angel," and "Property of Jesus."
Craig Pinkerton
Baby Lee wrote
Actually the songs that are obviously about heroin are "In the
Garden," "Precious Angel," and "Property of Jesus."
And, of course, with this logic....You can't forget SAVED (by the blood of
the Lamb). You know, needles...blood
"I was going down for the last time".....Horse/Lamb. O, yea....gotta be
smack. What else could he possibly have ment?
Craig Pinkerton
dyla...@zoomnet.net
http://www.tsev.com/tmn/index.html
Neil W. McKinlay
Perhaps I was not as clear as I might have been here. The statement is
directed to the record regarding Bob's composition of 'Sad.' Most, if not
all, reliable sources claim he wrote this song in a Nashville studio
during work on 'BoB.' My suggestion is that 'Sara' never once contradicts
such claims.
Neil
John Lettiere
--
John Lettiere, GM
Preferred Computing Inc.
"You Don't Need A Weatherman To Know Which Way The Wind Blows"... Bob Dylan
http://www.imagineradio.com/mymusiclisten.asp?name=Jlet
Diana <mui...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:37ED446D...@pacbell.net...
C. S.
C. S.
"shooting".......huh?....Mr. Burroughs????........
C. S.
man....use yer fuckin brain.....we're talkn about the age that taught US
how to use and mis-use drugs.....what the good Christ are we talkin
about......we are seriously talkin about one of the biggest "trial and
error" periods of drugs that we have seen in this
century........THINK!!!!!!