Ladder
Mr Jinx
bottom".
This puts me in mind of the "white ladder all covered with water" from
Hard Rain.
If in Dylan's mind the ladder is a symbol for the legal justice system
how significant it seems that the ladder should be white rather than,
say, black.
And could it be that the water is tears?
Mr Jinx
Jumbo
I think the water is the hard rain. The ladder is underwater. It
didn't save the people who thought they could climb out by following
organized religion and saying they believed in God. It's white because
its climbers thought of themselves as "pure", because of their moral
code. Only by actually being a better person and acting selflessly--
i.e not laughing cynically at others and going along with the flow--
will anyone survive the flood.
Just Walkin'
Are you saying it's not what we believe but how what we believe
impacts the way we live our life that counts?
If so, we need more people who believe as you do over here on our side
of the pond.
Part of the problem in these here United States is that we have all
kinds of professed religious folks running around that mistreat their
fellow beings all day long and then seek absolution in their religion
and find salvation in declaring their savior, insisting that the path
to heaven is not by thine own works but by faith alone.
As for the ladder, it sounds as if Bob is expressing the same
constitutional idealism that inspires our current president. But first
we have to raise the ladder above the water level...
Mr Jinx
May the last rung be wrung.
Mr Jinx
Jumbo
>
>
>
> > On Nov 24, 12:47 pm, Mr Jinx <vernon__bris...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "The ladder of law," we are told in Hattie Carroll, "Has no top and no
> > > bottom".
>
> > > This puts me in mind of the "white ladder all covered with water" from
> > > Hard Rain.
>
> > > If in Dylan's mind the ladder is a symbol for the legal justice system
> > > how significant it seems that the ladder should be white rather than,
> > > say, black.
>
> > > And could it be that the water is tears?
>
> > I think the water is the hard rain. The ladder is underwater. It
> > didn't save the people who thought they could climb out by following
> > organized religion and saying they believed in God. It's white because
> > its climbers thought of themselves as "pure", because of their moral
> > code. Only by actually being a better person and acting selflessly--
> > i.e not laughing cynically at others and going along with the flow--
> > will anyone survive the flood.
>
> Are you saying it's not what we believe but how what we believe
> impacts the way we live our life that counts?
Yes. In fact, the way we act *is* what we believe. So people who
rudely abuse "Christians" and claim to be atheists are in fact
dogmatical crypto-theists unknown to themselves, worshipping at the
altar of "No-fool-Me", just as fundamentalist Christians, for example,
are really the greatest status-conscious worldlings.
> Part of the problem in these here United States is that we have all
> kinds of professed religious folks running around that mistreat their
> fellow beings all day long and then seek absolution in their religion
> and find salvation in declaring their savior, insisting that the path
> to heaven is not by thine own works but by faith alone.
That's the Calvinist heritage, I take it.
Gemini Jackson
How odd that I was listening to that song from 'unravelled tales' when
I read your post. Also odd is that I've always thought it was
'letter' of law, a more common phrase to me.
Janice
> Yes. In fact, the way we act *is* what we believe. So people who
> rudely abuse "Christians" and claim to be atheists are in fact
> dogmatical crypto-theists unknown to themselves, worshipping at the
> altar of "No-fool-Me", just as fundamentalist Christians, for example,
> are really the greatest status-conscious worldlings.
Yes yes yes.
> > Part of the problem in these here United States is that we have all
> > kinds of professed religious folks running around that mistreat their
> > fellow beings all day long and then seek absolution in their religion
> > and find salvation in declaring their savior, insisting that the path
> > to heaven is not by thine own works but by faith alone.
>
> That's the Calvinist heritage, I take it
I've wondered where that particular interpretation of Christianity
sourced from. I have very little knowledge or experience of
Calvinism, but I know that it was the religion that Emily Dickinson
was raised in. I never knew if her more soaring moments of revelation
were because of, or in spite of, her Calvinism. Here is one opinion:
"For Calvinists, the two sacraments, baptism and communion, symbolized
God's promises to his elect, fellowship of the community of believers,
and an initiation into a meaningful spiritual life. In Dickinson's
poetry, sacrament takes on new meaning outside the constraints of the
exclusionary and (in the poet's experience) contrived dogma of the
Calvinist church. When Dickinson finds the sacraments of the formal
church empty and distant from her own experience, she moves away from
these constraints in poetry. As Eberwein has rightly pointed out, the
poet begins with the "tools" of Calvinism, the raw materials of the
language, and is imaginatively challenged by the idea of "sacrament,"
but denies tradition by converting doctrine into her own vision."
so, Emily is another example of acting out what she believes.
~`~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donald Davison
news:b68a83dc-8c21-43fb...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
And then there's the quote from Kipling (of all people) which Bob used in an
interview when asked about 9/11:
We have done with Hope and Honour, we are lost to Love and Truth,
We are dropping down the ladder rung by rung,
And the measure of our torment is the measure of our youth.
God help us, for we knew the worst too young!
At the time this reminded me (in a contrary kind of way) of another of
Dylan's ladders:
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
And may you stay forever young.
You could almost sing the Kipling lines to the tune of Forever Young.
I have always thought that "climb on every rung" saves that ladder from
being a cliche, and is very Dylan: there's work involved.
Donald
Just Walkin'
>
> At the time this reminded me (in a contrary kind of way) of another of
> Dylan's ladders:
>
> May you build a ladder to the stars
> And climb on every rung
> And may you stay forever young.
>
> You could almost sing the Kipling lines to the tune of Forever Young.
>
> I have always thought that "climb on every rung" saves that ladder from
> being a cliche, and is very Dylan: there's work involved.
>
> Donald
>
way out from under water, tears or not.
nate
white ladder covered with water...
i dunno - i sort of get a feeling of a ladder on a ship that has been
sinking. most of those ladders are iron painted white. now there has
been much comment about the colors he uses in Hard Rain, what with the
black dog and all. but i think our guy was intentionally using words
that would raise these issues, while not actually raising the issues
himself. he was into being provocative, that sly young man.
the ladder in Hattie Carrol is different, symbolically, from Hard
Rain's usage. this ladder of law is more like a Ferris wheel or
something, in that it does have a top or bottom, so it loops back into
itself - BUT remember! in Hattie Carrol this ladder is the Cover Story
they give out to the people - not the Truth. the Lie that they want
us to believe is that in the United States, the law is applied
equally.
then we move on to the ladder to the stars - a completely different
usage. you always hope your children will succeed beyond their
wildest dreams. BTW - Garth Hudson plays a PERFECT little figure on
this phrase. this is father Bob ripping away the sky's fence facing
from tamborine man and saying the sky is NOT the limit.
IMHO
- nate
Just Walkin'
> I've actually wondered before why the Hard Rain ladder had to be white,
> but Jinx's racial theory sounds like an overreach.
>
> It may just be that the most pressing issue was Dylan needing to find an
> extra syllable to insert. "White" sings better than "black," "wood,"
> "red," "green," etc....
>
One of the first poetry lessons Bob received from his high school
English teacher, B. J. Rolfzen, is how to read poetry and glean what
words or phrases are important and which are not.
One of his favorite examples is the poem below:
The Red Wheelbarrow
by William Carlos Williams
so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow
glazed with rain
water
beside the white
chickens.
The operational phrase here is "so much depends upon;" its color, and
that of the chickens, are largely unimportant as they do not
contribute to the poem's central message.
Hence, I am inclined to believe that, indeed, the color of the ladder
is largely unimportant, or at least not as important as the song's
central message.
btw If you go to Hibbing for Dylan Days, it is likely that you can sit
in Bob's English classroom in Hibbing High and learn this very lesson
from Mr. Rolfzen himself.
Ya' dig?
Jumbo
That's really interesting, but my hunch is that Bob would not consider
WCW's poem much of a poem. If the whiteness of the ladder is
unimportant, it becomes a bad line in a song that declares: "I'll know
my song well before I *start* singing..."
Just Walkin'
nautical regulations and/or traditions require ladders to be white. If
that is the case,
then the line, "I saw a white ladder all covered with water," denotes
doom; that you cannot save yourself from a sinking ship using a
ladder, "white" only being the adjective that helps us to locate the
ladder.
In this case, the color of the ladder is important. But thus far, I
have yet to find any nautical, marine or naval citations as to the
color of ladders.
really real
>
>> The Red Wheelbarrow
>> by William Carlos Williams
>>
>> so much depends
>> upon
>> a red wheel
>> barrow
>>
>> glazed with rain
>> water
>>
>> beside the white
>> chickens.
Good point. We all learned that poem in school and Dylan must have had
it in his subconscious when he wrote about the white ladder.
>
> Heh. My sophomore-HS English teacher also used this to teach my class
> poetry. And we all had to write our own little poem beginning with the
> same phrase.
>
> Coincidentally (?), this same teacher also once spent a day leading a
> discussion of the lyrics of "Desolation Row," which was really the first
> time I gave Dylan any serious thought.
Just Walkin'
> >> The Red Wheelbarrow
> >> by William Carlos Williams
>
> >> so much depends
> >> upon
> >> a red wheel
> >> barrow
>
> >> glazed with rain
> >> water
>
> >> beside the white
> >> chickens.
>
> Good point. We all learned that poem in school and Dylan must have had
> it in his subconscious when he wrote about the white ladder.
>
> > Heh. My sophomore-HS English teacher also used this to teach my class
> > poetry. And we all had to write our own little poem beginning with the
> > same phrase.
>
in Hard Rain that even the ships whose mission it is to save lives are
underwater, unable to save even their own, not from tears but from the
hard rain that's a-gonna fall as Jumbo suggests. If this is the case,
then his use of white is, in fact, informed and it does indeed carry
special meaning.
Janice
> You know, there's always the possibility that Dylan literally DID see a
> white ladder covered with water. Maybe he saw a firetruck in action.
I think this is a very good possibility.
The previous two lines are:
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin'
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
The imagery immediately takes me to KuKluxKlan-ish activities, and the
white ladder conjures up a picture of a church set on fire... the
vision of the ladder is what's left after the burning, and he might
very well have seen this scene on TV, in a movie, or in a newspaper/
magazine, etc.
~`~
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