Post Modernism Partly Dylan related
The Learners Realm
Many have stated about Post modernism on this newsgroup. My friend speaks
about it all the time, but it seems to kinda go over my head, although I
appreciate it to a degree where by I want to study it further.
Dylan's "License to Kill" off Infidels - is that post modernism or is it
counter - culture?
For example, " man walked on the moon" line is counter something or perhaps
post modernist.
My point is - I would like a layman's description and examples (http links)
about "post modernism". Further to this would RMDers call Dylan a Post
Modernist? I look forward to your feedback. By the way, see my review of L&T
below.
Regards,
Mat K
at The Learners Realm
look at my Goddamm, goodman, goddamitt web site
http://www.learnersrealm.com.au
Summary
I'm impressed with the album. It is much better than what i envisaged and I
look forward to the CD version. You wonder how he finds time to develop this
stuff....I mean its so different and timeless and as someone said on an
earlier RMD message. its like its own music. I know its early days, but I
don't see the hits or great songs I do with Blood, TOOM and BLONDE, but I do
see the same man, whose extending the realm of what music's all about. He
seems to be going back to his roots musically, but lyrically he's
effervescent as ever.
Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum
Sets the tone for the album really Quick / bluesy memphis jamming guitar
feel / is bit of a jibe/reference to old aspects/brings back the times
Mississipi
This takes you on a trip/ like a biography - uncharacteristic-things have
changed sober sequel/ has springsteen bits-born to run feel, but much deeper
and bolder/ inspiring and endless/the good of TOOM/ Mississippi doesn't fit
the album, but is excellent
Summer Days
this is like something from the 50s early experimental blues/ the recording
even sounds like its taped from the venue/where young white kids sneak to
get a peep of black muso's/ another sample of rock roots like "tweedle"
summer day lyrics melt the music, like its overwhelming the simplicity of
earlier times
Bye and Bye
Back to return to me. great organ adds, sounds like a comedy musical
feature. A Dean Martin replica, but a reckless rip-off, but for good
reasons....once again read lyrics....
Lonesome Day Blues
Keep coming back to roots/blues/repeating lines/Riske lyrics/ updated rock
beat from "bye and tweedle" he's rough and ready on this. The music and
lyrics show what a bad boy bob is? A lot of war and death references. hard
core and aggressive feel
Floater
this is like watching some 40s movie, violin intermissions which reminds you
of early cinema, for me wizard of oz - dont ask! its another track which
takes you back, like Bob's reliving his favourite "bringing up music" This
is like a fable or citizen kane soundtrack outtake. very differen't,
ingenius and touching, but "you wonder if he's taking the piss?" As they
say....you don't here songs like these anymore.
Highwater
Like a western compilation. like john brown tune - a bit. if this was
anymore western, dirt would come out of your computer. This is like another
track from Pat Garrett, but never was - but its lyrics are quite post modern
and surreal and a little unrelated to music but i think purposefully or
unpurposefullly so
Moonlight
this is like the equivalent status song as "To Make You Feel My Love" is on
TOOM. the simple lyrics don't at all encapsulate the rest of the
album....not that there's a need to ofcourse....but gee wiz...i remember
some guy on this site said he romanced his wife to it...Considering the
complexity of all othjer lyrics - how do times get as perfect as this....he
must have got some of that Italian love potion. Its even got that presley
hawaiian movie "hula, hula" type guitar music. Bob Must be an old romantic!
Honest with Me
Gritty and organ TOOM like blues music. But fast and hardhitting....a bit
towards highway 61 vintage. Great guitar chorus ends...a little rebellious
and cheeky like "lonesome blues" You go from moonlight to this and think -
what!
Po Boy
It took me a few listens and then I knew this is special..for want a better
term. "its very cute and devlish" the lyrics slice through Americana. But a
very catchy tune, keeps you wanting more. Very acoustic and jazz feel and
its edgy and the singing is beyong reproach. Once again a fantasy like
track, which hits you between the eyes, because it messes around.
Cry AWhile
What is the beat number on this...very unusual....this is bluesy, but so
polished. has many gospel like lyrics......very deep in the heartland...
Sugar Baby
This takes multiple listenings. I wont need to tell you that because you
will do it anyway. This is a saga and the Not Dark equivalent as was on
TOOM, not so much in the lyrics as in the music. once again this song is as
close as it gets to watching a movie...i know that sounds weird, but it has
a brownsville girl.....paris texas....intensity. also i think of highlands,
because of its relative longevity.
Mike Reid
> Hi all,
>
> Many have stated about Post modernism on this newsgroup. My friend speaks
> about it all the time, but it seems to kinda go over my head, although I
> appreciate it to a degree where by I want to study it further.
You can try this link: "Post Modernism 101"
http://members.home.net/hochened/pomo101.html
Postmodernism tends to refer to a variety of things, including the
philosophical stance that all forms of knowledge are equally valid (yuk!).
In art it tends to imply playing around with "known" things. The "nudge
nudge, wink wink" in-jokey sort of things, like picking up the Johnson
character at the crossroads in O Brother, Where Art Thou. (And all the
rest of the movie...). Much of LAT is postmodern in that sense. It winks
at the audience with the references to blues songs, Shakespeare, Tennesee
Williams, and so on.
Somone asked why this was different from "knowing your root" (my
paraphrasing). I'd put it this way. Pre-about-64 Dylan drew on folk and
blues roots to create fine songs derived (or stolen) from those styles
such as Song to Woody, or Hard Times in New York. Songs like Highway 61
Revisited or Teedle Dee & Tweedle Dum take those roots and mess with them.
We know that the songs are not quite what they seem.
I propose a key test for postmodernism in this sense. If we were not
familiar with the references we might just think they were just good songs
that draw on traditional roots. We might see O Brother Where Art Thou?
as just an entertaining yarn set in the 30's. But we don't. We see these
layers of meanings, in-jokes, and so on. [Actually, my wife greatly
enjoyed Oh Brother, but didn't have a clue about all the in jokes. That's
the nice thing about postmodern art. Even if you don't "understand" it,
you can still like it. This goes for visual art too, but I digress.]
It's easiest to see this form of postmodernism in the jokey-sounding bits,
Darwin trapped out on HW5, etc. The dark bits are perhaps more
interesting, but harder to explain.
The cuckoo is a pretty bird, she warbles as she flies
I'm preaching the word of God, I'm putting out your eyes
conflates the sadness that we know from the Cuckoo Bird song with
referencse to religious excesses. The point is that
postmodernism doesn't have to be just jokes. It can be any references that
enrich our experience of the performance.
--
Mike Reid, M.R...@phys.canterbury.ac.nz.pacific [Delete the ocean]
Greg Wallace
"The Learners Realm" <learne...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b90...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Groucho
Cannot everything be seen as pm? I mean is Monty Python a pm comedy troupe
that draws on The Goons? The Beatles with nudge nudge refs to Little Richard,
Perkins, Holly? Chaplin to English circuses? Mussolini to the Roman Empire?
Does pm just state that nothing is original, (in art, philos, thinking?)
Does it relate at all to modernism of the early 20 Century (which I think ties
in with the 19C Industrial Revolution?
If an artist is considered pm and he/she disagrees, is he/she pm?
Not a dig, man, just asking - it all seems so hokey. Every second person I
speak to says it so matter-of-factly, but they can never really tell me - and
they are studying it.
Groucho
p.s. I asked a friend studying sociology if a person could be BOTH post-modern
and not pm at the same time, and he said no - what do you think. ?
WesJ.Nixon
any kind of well understood thing for something that is new and
fragmented and made up of a variety of different things. Uhh..or
something like that.
I guess to use two Dylan songs to illustrate postmodernism, you could
compare "Masters of War" and "Subterranean Homesick Blues." Both are
critiques of society. Where "Masters" is pretty straight forward and
fits right into the genra of folk protest songs, "Subterrianian" is a
grab bag of broken images that traditionally would not fit together.
However, in the end the song works. The question may be why it works.
Probably because we identify better with a bunch of broken pieces than
we do stiff traditions. So, dont worry too much about postmodernism,
because we die, it goes with us.
Lloyd Fonvielle
> My point is - I would like a layman's description and examples (http links)
> about "post modernism".
Post-modernism is a pathetic word coined by academics & academic artists to
justify using traditional & conservative elements in art again without seeming
unhip. It is the last gasp of the "institutionalized avante garde" -- the
nuttiest development in the whole history of art.
William Parr
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/elab/hfl0242.html
Bill Parr
--
Bill Parr
Slow Train Coming Home Page
http://web.utk.edu/~wparr/SlowTrain.html
mailto: bi...@billparr.org
Lloyd Fonvielle <navi...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3B915CA2...@compuserve.com...
President_dudley
The Learners Realm wrote in message <3b90...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
>Hi all,
>
>Many have stated about Post modernism on this newsgroup.
perhaps
>post modernist.
>
I think it's conclusively proved that quote is related to Hopi legend, hence
more antedeluvian than "PostModern" horsehockey
>Further to this would RMDers call Dylan a Post
>Modernist?
"Call me any name you like
I will never deny it"
Farewell,
angelina
Mike Reid
> Mike:
>
> Cannot everything be seen as pm? I mean is Monty Python a pm comedy troupe
> that draws on The Goons? The Beatles with nudge nudge refs to Little Richard,
> Perkins, Holly? Chaplin to English circuses? Mussolini to the Roman Empire?
Well, as I said in my earlier post, I'm not a philosopher or art critic.
I'm a physics academic. I'm sure there are lots of people out there who
are more on top of the technical definitions. Perhaps Steven Scobie would
like to give us a good summary :-)
I had to work hard to resisit mentioning Monty Python in my original post,
since that's the first thing that pops into my head when I think about
these things. Perhaps Brian and his mates singing "Always sing on the
bright side of life" at their own crucifiction is a musical example that
has some relevence to the current discussion.
> Does pm just state that nothing is original, (in art, philos, thinking?)
Some parts of postmodernism say that all knowledge systems are equal and
they are all constructed by the viewer. As a scientist I have a real
problem with that, but this isn't the place for that discussion...
In my last post I was trying to say that it's not just jokey use of other
images. To take an example that most people know [technical art critics
may quarrel with exact definitions, but bear with me] think about Andy
Warhols multiple screen prints. You might say that soup cans and the
Marilyns are just poking fun. But take a look at his treatment of the
images of John Kennedy's funeral---multiple scratchy gray images of
Jackie, etc---you can't just laugh those off, those are compelling images.
To me it's like that with Dylan. It's not just jokes. The references
enrich the meanings. This is the real thing...
> Does it relate at all to modernism of the early 20 Century (which I think ties
> in with the 19C Industrial Revolution?
"Modern" art tends to be "challenging", "difficult", "hard to understand".
Discarding the old. PM art tends to look like it is recycling the old, and
so on the surface is much "easier" to understand.
> If an artist is considered pm and he/she disagrees, is he/she pm?
And if a tree falls in the forest and noone is listening, does it make a
sound?
> Not a dig, man, just asking - it all seems so hokey. Every second person I
> speak to says it so matter-of-factly, but they can never really tell me - and
> they are studying it.
>
> Groucho
>
> p.s. I asked a friend studying sociology if a person could be BOTH post-modern
> and not pm at the same time, and he said no - what do you think. ?
Well, I would argue that many Dylan songs are "just" straightforward
developments of certain traditions (Call Letter Blues, Blowing in the
wind, etc), and some have more of these PM aspects (Tangled up in blue,
HW61, Subterranean Homesick Blues, much of LAT).
In the end, however you define the terms, what Bob has done with folk and
blues (and "lounge" music!?) is much more interesting than just
recycling and perfecting a style.
--
Mike Reid, M.R...@phys.canterbury.ac.nz.pacific [Delete the ocean]
Physics and Astronomy, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand.
Maureen & Stephen Scobie
<Mike.Reid_ad...@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Well, as I said in my earlier post, I'm not a philosopher or art critic.
> I'm a physics academic. I'm sure there are lots of people out there who
> are more on top of the technical definitions. Perhaps Steven Scobie would
> like to give us a good summary :-)
Well, I can't pass up a challenge like that, can I?
First of all, only post-modernists spell my name "Steven." Good
old-fashioned modernists like me spell it "Stephen."
Secondly, the word "postmodernism" has been so overused, in so many
contexts, that definitions are practically impossible. Its most
precise use may be in architecture; by the time it gets to literature
or philosophy, it's beginning to dissolve.
But one way of looking at it is to say that the "post" prefix (as in
postmodernism, poststructuralism, postcolonialism, etc) is never a
*simple* indication of temporal sequence. Postmodernism doesn't simply
come "after" modernism. Rather, the "post" signifies a complex
relation of sequence, dependence, and revision. Postmodernism goes
back into modernism, picks up the same themes and concerns, and reworks
them in new ways.
For example, modernism is, famously, concerned with fragmentation: the
collapse of established ideologies, the failure of belief systems,
everything which Eliot (the archetypal modernist) sums up in "The Waste
Land." And modernism laments these collapses, whereas postmodernism
celebrates them. To put it crudely, modernism says "The modern world
is falling apart, belief systems no longer cohere, 'the centre cannot
hold' (Yeats) -- isn't this awful?" whereas postmodernism says "The
modern world is falling apart, belief systems no longer cohere, isn't
this liberating and wonderful?"
In that sense of the word, it seems to me that Dylan is clearly *not* a
postmodernist, but rather the last great modernist of the 20th century,
in a clear line from Eliot.
But it's not quite that simple. For another aspect of postmodernism is
its questioning of the whole concept of personal identity, its refusal
to accept the metaphysical notion of a non-contingent self. And in
this respect -- with his fascination with aliases, shadows, ghosts,
mirrors, signatures, etc -- Dylan is archetypally postmodernist.
So, here as elsewhere, we find Dylan poised between conflicting
worldviews. And as usual, the task of pinning him down to a single
definition is a fool's game -- which is itself, perhaps, a
postmodernist conclusion to a modernist question.
Stephen
Mike Reid
Apologies for the name confusion---I believe I'm probably just a
spelling-challenged modernist at heart :-)
Thank you for the analysis of Dylan as poised between modernism and
postmodernism. Perhaps this means that he doen't necessarily think that
science is merely a construct of a male world view. But, then again,
perhaps not :-] As I've been at pains to point out, there are some
positive, interesting, intriguing ideas lurking about in postmodernism,
beyond the jokes:
"What advances in philosophy have there been since WWII?"
"Foucault!"
We look forward to the new edition of your book...
Mike Reid
--
PHyatt1962
Interesting article.
PH
chiarot
Maureen & Stephen Scobie wrote in message
<010920012228264727%msc...@coastnet.com>...
> whereas postmodernism says "The
>modern world is falling apart, belief systems no longer cohere, isn't
>this liberating and wonderful?"
and in predicating such presupposes a coherent belief system........