Re; Postmodernism Query
Martin Grossman
and
that I defy Bob Dylan to suggest otherwise ;-).
This isn't a definition of post-modern, a term I don't much like. (What
comes next "post-post-modern," post-post-post modern" and the like?)
But it seems to me that if one of the hallmarks of so-called
"post-modern"
writing is pastiche, then Dylan is one of its leading practitioners.
This
has been especially true of his recent work, although he has used the
technique from the beginning. I could litter this posting with example,
but,
hey, this is rmd not an academic paper.
Someone mentioned his appropriation of the the chorus of "Mississippi"
from an anonymous black prisoner. Here is a more "literary" example I
just happened upon in last Wednesday's New York Times. In her
column, Maureen Dowd writes: Why did Proust's Swann swoon over the
sharp-featured Odette, when he knew he was wasting years of
his life longing for
a woman "who didn't even appeal to me"?
It seems too much of a coincidence to suggest that Dylan never read
Proust and encountered the line, which he later used in "Things Have
Changed." It seems likely he once read the line, liked it, jotted it
down
and tossed in "the box" he once mentioned he keeps for times when he
needs inspiration while writing (or putting together) a song. Maybe this
is
"modern' (think Joyce), but it's a technique "post-modern" writers like
Tom Pynchon use often, too. So Dylan writes "composed" songs in the
folk idiom, rock songs that have literary sources, reads more that he
lets
on, is an untrustworthy interview subject, and easily fits into a
definition
of of "post-modern" as well as his own singular, elusive category of
"Bob
Dylan," who after all is character created by Robert Zimmerman, just as
"Borges" is a character created by Borges. And in the LaT songs, "Bob
Dylan" is not the "voice" in the songs and if you look at it in a
certain too
academic way, he isn't the "voice" in any of the songs he's written.
Marty
Linn Carpenter wrote:
Don, maybe you were on vacation the week of 9/2/01, but this subject
was
covered pretty well at that time, so rather than rehashing the same
posts again, you might want to look back at the thread titled "Post
Modernism Partly Dylan Related" from that week. Hope this helps.
Linn
"Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin'" - Bob Dylan
don freeman wrote:
>
> Can anyone give me a good definition of postmodernism?
> I mean, something that can be said in a few sentences.
>
> Thanks in advance.....................
don freeman
> if one of the hallmarks of so-called "post-modern"
> writing is pastiche, then Dylan is one of its leading practitioners.
Thanks, Marty
I can understand how Tom Pynchon is more modern than James Joyce, and thus
"post-modern" would apply to him, and how sneaking a Proust quote into "Things
Have Changed" about a woman "who didn't even appeal to me" is post modern
when Dylan reads more than he lets on, and is an untrustworthy interview
subject.
When you describe the way Dylan created " his own singular, elusive category
of
"Bob Dylan," it makes me wonder if Little Richard is post modern.What about
Cab Calloway?
And as usual, I must protest that the belief " if you look at it in a
certain too academic way, he isn't the "voice" in any of the songs he's
written."
This kind of belief doesn't leave room for the self-referential side of Bob
Dylan.
Tricia J
>
>And as usual, I must protest that the belief " if you look at it in a
>certain too academic way, he isn't the "voice" in any of the songs he's
>written."
>This kind of belief doesn't leave room for the self-referential side of Bob
>Dylan.
>
The "self-referential" bit is very post-modern, because it is all
about self-consciousness and irony.
Rib O'flavin
Richard came out with a new album, then he might be classified as...Old
fashioned, washed-up, and badly in need of money. You gotta be cool,
and in the right crowd, to be "post-modern." If this new album sales,
it will probably be because it's post-modern, and if you wanna be cool,
you have to understand, and enjoy things post-modern. I'm post-modern,
or something.
kelly huckeby
news:3B9C1ADB...@mindspring.com...
> column, Maureen Dowd writes: Why did Proust's Swann swoon over the
> sharp-featured Odette, when he knew he was wasting years of
> his life longing for
> a woman "who didn't even appeal to me"?
> It seems too much of a coincidence to suggest that Dylan never read
> Proust and encountered the line, which he later used in "Things Have
> Changed." It seems likely he once read the line, liked it, jotted it
> down and tossed in "the box" he once mentioned he keeps for times when he
> needs inspiration while writing (or putting together) a song.
Robert Johnson Also has a song , cant remember the title, but he says, "have
a girl that dont appeal to me". I will have to pull out the album and get
he title. But the source for the line may have several different sources.
Kely
Rib O'flavin
Rib O'flavin wrote:
> If this new album sales,
This bugged me when I wrote it, but I couldn't tell why, then five
minutes later it pops in my head: "sells!" I'm completely sober, yet
wasted in another type of way.
robertandrews
>And in the LaT songs, "Bob Dylan" is not the "voice" in the songs and if
you look at it in a certain too academic way, he isn't the "voice" in any of
the songs he's written.
Seems like the same Dylan to me, in song, interview & live performance: a
very talented, deeply troubled soul.
raven
Rib O'flavin wrote:
> Rib O'flavin wrote:
>
> > If this new album sales,
>
> This bugged me when I wrote it, but I couldn't tell why, then five
> minutes later it pops in my head: "sells!" I'm completely sober, yet
> wasted in another type of way.
>
A post-modern way, I assume ;-)
martin blank
>
> I can understand how Tom Pynchon is more modern than James Joyce, and thus
> "post-modern" would apply to him, and how sneaking a Proust quote into "Things
> Have Changed" about a woman "who didn't even appeal to me" is post modern
> when Dylan reads more than he lets on, and is an untrustworthy interview
> subject.
actually, all we need to remember are the words of popeye the sailor man, who
said: "I am what I am and that's all what I am. I'm popeye the sailor man."
Making up categories is the work of the academic.
vic
Kenneth Wilson
> But it seems to me that if one of the hallmarks of so-called
> "post-modern" writing is pastiche, then Dylan is one of its
> leading practitioners.
> This has been especially true of his recent work, although
> he has used the technique from the beginning.
So true, except that another hallmark of post-modernism, and the source of
its pastiche style, is the supposedly decentered nature of reality and the
impossibility of finding any overarching, coherent narrative. Dylan, on the
other hand, has always seemed to have a strong point of view and a strong
worldview.
ken
Martin Grossman
it buried in obscurity and elusiveness in a most post-modern way. In the new "Rome
Interview" I think he sounds as "post-modern" as he did in his mid-60s Bob Dylan
the hipster pose. He has adopted so many poses and denied them that its clear he
sees his performing life as a kind of literary project of which the songs are
merely the most important part.
Little Richard and Cab Calloway are camp, especially Richard. Both are grist for
the ol' post-modernist mill.
SDW
>
> This isn't a definition of post-modern, a term I don't much like. (What
> comes next "post-post-modern," post-post-post modern" and the like?)
> But it seems to me that if one of the hallmarks of so-called "post-modern"
> writing is pastiche, then Dylan is one of its leading practitioners. [...]
Very well-said; however, I do not believe that pastiche can be a
criterion for Post-Modernism in and of itself. What often gets lost
in many formulations of Post-Modernism is its foundational, vexed
relationship with literary Modernism. Tricia Jungwirth just posted a
brilliant assessment of "Highwater" as a Post-Modern work, but it
strikes me that the three criteria she uses, i.e.:
> a) it is in large part pastiche - both musically and lyrically it
> borrows from previous sources, synthesising elements from disparate
> styles
> b) the synthesis of the borrowed source material with original
> material creates a self-conscious ironic thoughtscape
> c) the work itself is a conscious work of art which draws on the
> absurdity (or just plain weirdness) of a modern synthesis of old and
> new [...]
would all be--as with "Desolation Row"--equally applicable, say, to
The Waste Land as to any Post-Modern work of art. (In this respect
Post-Modernism is to be viewed not as innovative or even belatedly
original but rather as parasitical and comparatively weak). What
needs to be discerned is the project animating these literary-artistic
methods. With Modernism, as often as not, you had an urge toward
mythic recovery that (though most Modernists besides Yeats would never
admit it) drew heavily on Modernism's great artistic forebear,
Romanticism, while injecting it into a fractured, frequently absurd
"ironic thoughtscape" (great phrase, by the way). Post-Modernism, on
the other hand--as others here have shown--has self-consciously (or
should I say melodramatically) abandoned all hope of such an
all-encompassing goal and revels in the shards left over.
I myself would place Dylan firmly in the Romantic-Modernist camp, at
the risk of discovering him for what he truly is (and claims to be):
Old-Fashioned.
Kenneth Wilson
> Tricia Jungwirth just posted a
> brilliant assessment of "Highwater" as a Post-Modern work, but it
> ... would all be--as with "Desolation Row"--equally applicable, say,
> to The Waste Land as to any Post-Modern work of art.
Yes, yes, yes. Thanks to both you and Tricia for great analyses.
> With Modernism, as often as not, you had an urge toward
> mythic recovery ..............
> I myself would place Dylan firmly in the Romantic-Modernist camp, at
> the risk of discovering him for what he truly is (and claims to be):
> Old-Fashioned.
More "yes"es. It's *love* and theft.
Ken
Zim
Grossman - and I'm getting a little tired of deleting your bloody .vcf
files from my download folder.
Give it a rest, eh?
Martin Grossman
(At least I think I have.) Does anyone know how I can keep it for email but
drop it for newsgroup postings?
Marty
Martin Grossman
postings?
Marty