Lyric in Visions of Johanna
Daniel Ezra Johnson
Regarding Veneer, Vermeer, The Near, etc.
Isn't the lyric obviously "the mirror"??
1) that is the published lyric
2) Dylan is well known for pronouncing "mirror" exactly like that
3) Dylan would not (subjective opinion, all right) use the high-toned words
veneer or Vermeer in this song -- it is not Blood on the Tracks where
he uses many proper names in allusions.
Can we end the discussion and agree: THE MIRROR.
Dan
John Howells
AGREED! I've never understood the controversy on this subject.
--
John Howells
how...@sgi.com
http://reality.sgi.com/howells
Daisey
Daniel Ezra Johnson wrote:
>
> Regarding Veneer, Vermeer, The Near, etc.
>
> Isn't the lyric obviously "the mirror"??
>
> 1) that is the published lyric
> 2) Dylan is well known for pronouncing "mirror" exactly like that
> 3) Dylan would not (subjective opinion, all right) use the high-toned words
> veneer or Vermeer in this song -- it is not Blood on the Tracks where
> he uses many proper names in allusions.
>
> Can we end the discussion and agree: THE MIRROR.
>
> Dan
No we can't end the discussion just because you think we should. Dylan is notorious for
changing lyrics. He may have sang all of the variation -- veneer, Vermeer, the near
and maybe even "the mirror". And besides, people just like to talk about what they
think. Unless Dylan himself tell us precisely he said on BoB, we'll just never know,
despite what the lyrics say.
Daniel Ezra Johnson
Daisey wrote:
>
>No we can't end the discussion just because you think we should. Dylan is
notorious for
>changing lyrics. He may have sang all of the variation -- veneer, Vermeer,
the near
>and maybe even "the mirror". And besides, people just like to talk about
what they
>think. Unless Dylan himself tell us precisely he said on BoB, we'll just
never know,
>despite what the lyrics say.
>
>
I don't follow the logic of this. First of all, we're not only talking
about changes to the lyrics over time. Originally, people were wondering
about the original lyrics on BoB. So we must agree that it is not obvious
from the start what he is saying. This is for two reasons: people are not
used to hearing mirror pronounced that way, and secondly because those
other words happen to sound similar. Just because other words sound
possible doesn't mean that Dylan is intentionally investigating the
ambiguity of the words, or that there are 'variations' at all!
On Tangled up in Blue, there is the line "We split up on a dark sad
night, both agreein' it was best". It is just a fact of the English
language that it sounds very much like "We split up on the docks that
night" -- which makes a lot more sense than certain other 'variations'
that have been suggested. But this doesn't have to be seen as ambiguity!
We don't have to say he may have sang both on different occasions! It is
just a coincidence...
The Mirror,
Daniel Ezra
Daisey
I believe my point was that we all hear something different, and that's fine. I was
responding to your post because it had a "I say it, therefore it's so" quality. If
you're tired of the thread, don't read it. But if others wish to continue discussing
what they hear in the song, let them.
Ben Taylor
Daisey <tjf...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> writes:
>Unless Dylan himself tell us precisely he said on BoB, we'll just never
>know, despite what the lyrics say.
I've always worked on the assumption that every word of "Lyrics 1962-
1985" was personally reviewed and approved by Bob Dylan, including
"Visions of Johanna". In addition to the documented fact that it was so,
I cite as evidence the fact that Dylan chose to alter some lyrics quite
significantly, and others slightly. While clearly this is not the same
as Dylan providing his definitive transcript of the Blonde on Blonde
recording, it is, I believe, Bob Dylan explicitly stating that he wants
the official transcript to say "mirror". (And, no, I don't think this
closes the discussion :-)
Ben Taylor
--
Leeds, England
bpta...@laguna.demon.co.uk
William C. Parr
Ben Taylor has posted:
I think this is an excellent comment, Ben. Lyrics, for all its faults (no,
let's not bother with a list . . .) obviously got some serious work in its
preparation for publication. Enough lyrics were seriously altered to make
it obvious that Dylan had his hand in it. I agree that we must regard
Lyrics 1962 - 1985 as Dylan's best existing statement of what he wanted the
body of work to read, as of the date when Lyrics was published.
Now, maybe a bit of an exaggeration about every word being personally
reviewed and approved --- though I'd argue that was what was done by
implication when it was released for publication. Just wouldn't want to
argue or to imply that great care was used on each and every lyric, which I
think is what the "every word of 'Lyrics 1962-1985' was personally reviewed
and approved by Bob Dylan" might suggest to some.
And, like Ben, I think that only opens the discussion. He's sung too many
of them several different ways. The verses in TUIB. The omitted verses from
Masters of War. And so on . . .
Bill Parr
==================================================================
William C. Parr Phone: 423-974-1631, Fax: 423-531-0574
Email: wp...@utk.edu
World Wide Web: http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~wparr/
"And the sun will respect every face on the deck
The hour that the ship comes in." Bob Dylan
==================================================================
Ben Taylor
"William C. Parr" <wp...@utk.edu> writes:
>Now, maybe a bit of an exaggeration about every word being personally
>reviewed and approved --- though I'd argue that was what was done by
>implication when it was released for publication. Just wouldn't want to
>argue or to imply that great care was used on each and every lyric, which I
>think is what the "every word of 'Lyrics 1962-1985' was personally reviewed
>and approved by Bob Dylan" might suggest to some.
Fair enough, agreed. While I did indeed mean that every word (not
literally) was personally reviewed by Bob Dylan (no, I have no first
hand proof) this is not to say he necessarily took any care over it ;-)
Of course, I am merely speculating.
Ben Taylor
Tobocman
I think the essence of this controversy is that the line "she's delicate
and seems like the mirror" is nowhere near as imagistic and caustic as
"she's delicate and seems like veneer," a credible image and a mild snipe,
as well.
Considering the tone of Visions of Johanna, I've always thought "veneer"
was the lyric. Just because Bob himself annotated the Lyrics book doesn't
mean that it's what we'd all call accurate. Remember, he has a tendancy
to reinvent.
What does "she's delicate and seems like the mirror" mean, anyway?
David
Los Angeles
e-mail response, please
Tobo...@aol.com
catherine yronwode
Tobocman wrote:
>
> I think the essence of this controversy is that the line "she's delicate
> and seems like the mirror" is nowhere near as imagistic and caustic as
> "she's delicate and seems like veneer," a credible image and a mild snipe,
> as well.
>
> Considering the tone of Visions of Johanna, I've always thought "veneer"
> was the lyric. Just because Bob himself annotated the Lyrics book doesn't
> mean that it's what we'd all call accurate. Remember, he has a tendancy
> to reinvent.
I agree. But this thread made me change my mind. It is mirror, lesser
though that is in poetic terms.
> What does "she's delicate and seems like the mirror" mean, anyway?
I swear to Buddha it means that Louise is Mimi Farina on account of she
looks just like Johanna, who's not here.
catherine yronwode ---------------------- mailto:yron...@sonic.net
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Stephen Scobie/Maureen Scobie
In article <50u5js$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tobo...@aol.com (Tobocman)
wrote:
> I think the essence of this controversy is that the line "she's delicate
> and seems like the mirror" is nowhere near as imagistic and caustic as
> "she's delicate and seems like veneer," a credible image and a mild snipe,
> as well.
>
> Considering the tone of Visions of Johanna, I've always thought "veneer"
> was the lyric. Just because Bob himself annotated the Lyrics book doesn't
> mean that it's what we'd all call accurate. Remember, he has a tendancy
> to reinvent.
>
> What does "she's delicate and seems like the mirror" mean, anyway?
>
Not only have I always thought it was "mirror," I also think "mirror" is
much more "imagistic" and suggestive than "veneer" (or "Vermeer"). But the
really interesting word in this line is "seems." How do you "seem" like a
mirror?
I try to explain all this in some detail in my pamphlet on "Visions of
Johanna," a detailed line-by-line reading of the song, which is still
available from Rolling Tomes. At regular six-month intervals, Craig
Jamieson (whom I dearly love) asks why I don't post this text on the net.
Two reasons: (1) it's far too long for an rmd post, not to mention the
fact that it includes fiddly things like footnotes; (2) as long as
Rolling Tomes keeps it in print and available, I would be undercutting my
own publisher to publish it anywhere else.
In fact, the most recent edition of "Series of Dreams" offers this
pamphlet as a "September Book Special." Item #18299. Rolling Tomes, PO
Box 1943, Grand Junction, Colorado, 81502.
Stephen
--
Stephen Scobie Maureen Scobie
George Rothe
Stephen Scobie/Maureen Scobie wrote:
> Not only have I always thought it was "mirror," I also think "mirror" is
> much more "imagistic" and suggestive than "veneer" (or "Vermeer"). But the
> really interesting word in this line is "seems." How do you "seem" like a
> mirror?
>
seem = as if. as if she is a perfect reflection of him. and isn't she
just another choir boy of reality?
Paul Loeber
Dylan may have sung "mere" instead of "mirror" and thus it could be:
"She's delicate and seems like a mere Butt
She just makes it all too concise and too clear That
Johanna's not here."
This fits in with the idea that the woman in question is little more
than a piece of ass, whereas Johanna is a total woman.
Craig Jamieson
Stephen Scobie/Maureen Scobie (ssco...@sol.uvic.ca) wrote:
: In article <50u5js$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tobo...@aol.com (Tobocman)
: wrote:
: > I think the essence of this controversy is that the line "she's delicate
: > and seems like the mirror" is nowhere near as imagistic and caustic as
: > "she's delicate and seems like veneer," a credible image and a mild snipe,
: I try to explain all this in some detail in my pamphlet on "Visions of
: Johanna," a detailed line-by-line reading of the song, which is still
: available from Rolling Tomes. At regular six-month intervals, Craig
: Jamieson (whom I dearly love) asks why I don't post this text on the net.
Aaaaaaaah, that's sweet. :-)
It's not really me, just another EDLIS bot, hence the precision of the
timing of the repetition of the request.
The bot never suggests you post the whole thing, just a touch, a taster,
to tempt buyers to buy the whole tome and clinch the argument a little.
: Two reasons: (1) it's far too long for an rmd post, not to mention the
nate
>Not only have I always thought it was "mirror," I also think "mirror" is
>much more "imagistic" and suggestive than "veneer" (or "Vermeer"). But the
>really interesting word in this line is "seems." How do you "seem" like a
>I try to explain all this in some detail in my pamphlet on "Visions of
>Johanna," a detailed line-by-line reading of the song, which is still
>Stephen Scobie
ok. NONE of the people who have said one thing is better than the other
are right. so say i boldly forth.
i promise-promise-promise to BUY with genuine cash etc etc etc
stephen is quite correct that mirror is NO ACCIDENTAL WORD here. those
who may dismiss it may wish to consider:
john howells is correct when he says that "mirror" is something
that dylan would write, rather than veneer or Vermeer.
mirrors have been a frequent guest in his work. there is much
to think about here.
early on we have what would appear to be a simple ordinary reference
to a glass mirror in "Mama You've Benn On My Mind":
When you wake up in the mornin', baby, look inside your mirror.
You know I won't be next to you, you know I won't be near.
I'd just be curious to know if you can see yourself as clear
As someone who has had you on his mind.
now we might not realize what could actually be going on until
we have had some time time to consider an early drive to find a
mirror image, so-to-speak, in the woman/person he loves. we get
a glimpse of the matter at stake in his extremely personal Plain
D:
Myself, for what I did, I cannot be excused,
The changes I was going through can't even be used,
For the lies that I told her in hopes not to lose
The could-be dream-lover of my lifetime.
indeed, just what is the nature of this "dream-lover"? from
"Love Is Just A Four-Letter Word, we have:
Searching for my double, looking for
Complete evaporation to the core
double, as in mirror image? remember Dylan berating the Science
Student in "DONT LOOK BACK"? why was he so focused on trying to
get the guy to admit that a friend was someone who thinks "exactly
like you" - made clearly an odious kind of goal by dylan's tone.
i would say here that there is possibly a PROJECTION going on there,
in that dylan is aware that this is something he used to believe in.
the 4-letter song eventually reaches:
It's like looking in the teacher's face complete
i am not able to go into huge ramblings, so everyone should breath a
sigh of relief. but...let's go to Blonde On Blonde where we find
a few snippets of relevant material:
And your streetcar visions which you place on the grass,
And your flesh like silk, and your face like glass,
Who among them do they think could carry you?
Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands,
ok - a reach to say glass == mirror...
Well, anybody can be just like me, obviously
But then, not again, not too many can be like you, fortunately. *
perhaps our boy is still thinking that you can find yourself in other
people if you merely catch the light right (almost handsome).
You see, you're just like me,
I hope you're satisfied.
(with of course Mr. D's incredible self-awareness...)
let's take a look at what he writes about Sarah again (4-Letter Word &
Sad-Eyed Lady being cited above already) in 1974:
Oh, can't you see that you were born to stand by my side
And I was born to be with you, you were born to be my bride,
You're the other half of what I am, you're the missing piece
And I love you more than ever with that love that doesn't cease.
the other half of what he is....
he doesnt always do this:
Well, Phaedra with her looking glass,
Stretchin' out upon the grass.
She gets all messed up and she faints -
That's 'cause she's so obvious and you ain't.
I wanna be your lover, baby, I wanna be your man.
I wanna be your lover, baby,
I don't wanna be hers, I wanna be yours.
but sometimes you could begin to conclude:
In your teardrops, I can see my own reflection.
Luck was with me when I crossed the borderline.
I don't want to be a fool that's starving for affection.
I don't want to drown in someone else's wine.
by the time we get to 1983 this notion of the mirror-self
has reached huge importance:
I and I
One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives.
i have other snippets that dont say much by themselves when
taken into consideration, but collectively they build up a
strong image of reckoning in the overall work:
lonely? ah yes
but it is the flowers an' the mirrors
of flowers that now meet my
loneliness
yonder at your funeral, you will see this pauper -- dressed like your
face, he will have a wedding present for you -- it will be a mirror & in
it,
you will see the world as it sees you ... behind this mirror there will
be a common worker[.....DELETIA]...
In the cold mirror of a glass
I see my reflection pass
I see the dark shades of what I used to be
I see the purple of her eyes
The scarlet of my lies
Love rescue me
We live in a political world.
Where mercy walks the plank
Life is in mirrors, death disappears
Up the steps to the nearest bank.
NOW lets restore the quote in question to this line of thought...
SHE'S DELICATE AND SEEMS LIKE THE MIRROR
i have no problem with integrating this into all of the above....
"seems", but not "IS" - she aint Johanna, she aint the missing
piece, the double at the core of being. nope.
but she just makes it all too concise and too clear
that Johanna isnt here.
the ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face
where these visions of Johanna have now taken my place.
GIMME a break here - this is very thick (VOJ is the definitive
thick song)...when you look in a mirror, usually you see YOU-
but he sees visions (not the real thing) of someone ELSE....
but Louise is Very Close to Johanna. at the same time she is
obviously NOT Johanna (too concise and too clear). someone
ELSE here is perhaps the realization that searching for your
double is not the idea, Johanna can never be the double (let
alone Louise or the "you" of the line "when bringing your name
up, he speaks of a farewell kiss to me"). i would have more if
i can think longer.
HOLD IT HOLD IT HOLD IT WAIT A MINUTE!!!!
veneer aint bad!
shedding off one more layer of skin, reality behind a mask,
veneer is delicate whereas mirrors are just ordinary fragile,
beauty is skin-deep (but ugly goes to the bone), you know....
or the new one for me: Vermeer, which ties in with the Wallflower
Frieze and Mona Lisa and museums...maybe, but i tend to think NOT.
so John: isnt it possible that our boy KNEW all of this in advance?
or, if not before, AS HE WAS SINGING IT? i have some 1966 recordings
that i am sure you have and i hear it distinct in one one way and
distinct in another the other way...and i think that is the way he
was doing it on purpose....surely you havent underestimated him?
the only way to settle this is obvious: we must all listen to every
possible recording 1235-or-so times each under the most extreme
conditions that we can displace our brains into and record on separate
tape whatever we can babble into the mike during this and then send
everything we get to A.J.Weberman.
then we can talk to Neuwirth........
- nate, who still wants to know what a "scrapegoat" is. (Clue: they
can be constant)
* EDLIS has this line as "now again" - which ruins it, this is a
spoof on the common phraselet "but then again" used too much over here
on this side of the pond. dylan says "NOT again" pointedly here.
i dont know what "Lyrics" has and i dont care....
BREA...@ukcc.uky.edu
In article <514lii$3...@llnews.ll.mit.edu>
na...@ll.mit.edu (nate) writes:
<major snip, snip>
>
>stephen is quite correct that mirror is NO ACCIDENTAL WORD here. those
>who may dismiss it may wish to consider:
>john howells is correct when he says that "mirror" is something
>that dylan would write, rather than veneer or Vermeer.
>mirrors have been a frequent guest in his work. there is much
>to think about here.
>
>NOW lets restore the quote in question to this line of thought...
>
> SHE'S DELICATE AND SEEMS LIKE THE MIRROR
>
>i have no problem with integrating this into all of the above....
>"seems", but not "IS" - she aint Johanna, she aint the missing
>piece, the double at the core of being. nope.
>
As I was digesting Nate's treatise, the following words came out of my tape
deck, from Bob's introduction to "Man Gave Name to All the Animals," The
Meadowlands Arena, October 27, 1981 [an astonishing show, by the way]:
"I might be acting a little strange right now, that's because this is a mighty
strange place. [unintelligible] Ain't seen nowhere like this. Back in the dr
essing room there I got a black mirror in my room. I was looking into it
just about a half hour ago and I seen two eyes looking back at me. Hmmm."
For the record,
DanB
David G. Rees
Paul Loeber wrote:
Uh, excuse me for being blunt Paul, but your conjecture here is just plain
silly, (besides being grammatically awkward and poetically stupid). Dylan
sang mirror. Sometimes an image isn't "logical", but your "logic" here
makes less sense than the Dylan's lovely simile...
William C. Parr
David G. Rees wrote:
>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:10:12 -0500 (EST)
>From: "David G. Rees" <DR...@ubmail.ubalt.edu>
>Subject: Lyric in Visions of Johanna
>To: HWY...@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Sender: owner-...@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Excuse me for being blunt also, but itn't it rather likely that Paul was
being a bit, say, silly here? Poking fun, perhaps?
catherine yronwode
> >those who may dismiss it may wish to consider:
> >john howells is correct when he says that "mirror" is something
> >that dylan would write, rather than veneer or Vermeer.
> >mirrors have been a frequent guest in his work. there is much
> >to think about here.
> >
> >NOW lets restore the quote in question to this line of thought...
> >
> > SHE'S DELICATE AND SEEMS LIKE THE MIRROR
> >
> >i have no problem with integrating this into all of the above....
> >piece, the double at the core of being. nope.
>
>
> from Bob's introduction to "Man Gave Name to All the Animals," The
> Meadowlands Arena, October 27, 1981 [an astonishing show, by the way]:
>
> "I might be acting a little strange right now, that's because this is
> a mighty strange place. [unintelligible] Ain't seen nowhere like
> eyes looking back at me. Hmmm."
"Would ya please not stare at me like that?" he said,
"It's just my foolish pride,
But sometimes a man must be alone
And this is no place to hide."
But, like Louise always says, "Ya can't look at much, can ya, man?"
Seriously, this is great stuff, Nate and Dan -- to which i would like to
add that Dylan is a Gemini, the sign of the twins. I believe that he is
aware of this, and whether or not he "believes" in astrology, he uses
many images of doubling, and twinning, not confining himself to mere
"mirror" imagery.
For instance, when he gets the "Memphis blues again," he is "waiting to
find out what price you have to pay to get out of going through all
these things twice."
And in Brownsville Girl, "there was a movie I seen one time, I think I
sat through it twice," while, in the same song, i hear an eerie echo of
the mirror-like Louise -- who made it "all too concise and too clear
that Johanna's not here" -- when the narrator declares, "I know she
ain't you but she's here."
There are many, many more of these instances of doubling...
catherine yronwode ---------------------- mailto:yron...@sonic.net
John Howells
catherine yronwode wrote:
>
> Seriously, this is great stuff, Nate and Dan -- to which i would like to
> add that Dylan is a Gemini, the sign of the twins. I believe that he is
> aware of this, and whether or not he "believes" in astrology, he uses
> many images of doubling, and twinning, not confining himself to mere
> "mirror" imagery.
>
> For instance, when he gets the "Memphis blues again," he is "waiting to
> find out what price you have to pay to get out of going through all
> these things twice."
>
> And in Brownsville Girl, "there was a movie I seen one time, I think I
> sat through it twice," while, in the same song, i hear an eerie echo of
> the mirror-like Louise -- who made it "all too concise and too clear
> that Johanna's not here" -- when the narrator declares, "I know she
> ain't you but she's here."
>
> There are many, many more of these instances of doubling...
>
"I fought with my twin, that enemy within" - Where are You Tonight
"I still believe she was my twin" - Simple Twist of Fate
"You're the other half of what I am, you're the missing piece" -
The Wedding Song
"You see, you're just like me, I hope you're satisfied" -
Memphis Blues Again
I've always felt that "Memphis Blues Again", in particular, used
this twin imagery to its finest. I think the entire song is a
dialogue between "twin Dylans". In other words, ALL the characters
in the song are meant to represent the other half of the narrator.
Sorabh Saxena; Masters
The most obvious and yet the best of them all:
I & I
Sorabh
In article <323714...@sgi.com> John Howells <how...@sgi.com> writes:
>catherine yronwode wrote:
>> There are many, many more of these instances of doubling...
>>
>
>"I fought with my twin, that enemy within" - Where are You Tonight
>
>"I still believe she was my twin" - Simple Twist of Fate
>
>"You're the other half of what I am, you're the missing piece" -
> The Wedding Song
>
>"You see, you're just like me, I hope you're satisfied" -
> Memphis Blues Again
>
>I've always felt that "Memphis Blues Again", in particular, used
>this twin imagery to its finest. I think the entire song is a
>dialogue between "twin Dylans". In other words, ALL the characters
>in the song are meant to represent the other half of the narrator.
>
>--
>
> John Howells
> how...@sgi.com
> http://reality.sgi.com/howells
--
*******************************************************************************
"Now we heard the Sermon on the Mount,
and knew it was too complex
It didn't amount to anything more
gail marie wiese
>> I think the essence of this controversy is that the line "she's delicate
>> and seems like the mirror" is nowhere near as imagistic and caustic as
>> "she's delicate and seems like veneer," a credible image and a mild snipe,
I think the "essence" of this "controversy" is that the line "she's
delicate and seems like the mirror" is what is being sung. On Blonde On
Blonde and on every live version extant. "Mirror" not "veneer". Both fine
words in their own right but the word "veneer" doesn't appear in any
version of "Visions Of Johanna".
Wait, I think "Guyana" would make the song even more imagistically caustic:
"Visions of Guyana" that's it! hey everybody put on your ear-goggles and
listen up, I think I finally cracked the nigtengales whaddyacallit, "code."
>> Considering the tone of Visions of Johanna, I've always thought "veneer"
>> was the lyric. Just because Bob himself annotated the Lyrics book doesn't
>> mean that it's what we'd all call accurate. Remember, he has a tendancy
>> to reinvent.
>
>I agree. But this thread made me change my mind. It is mirror, lesser
>though that is in poetic terms.
>
>> What does "she's delicate and seems like the mirror" mean, anyway?
>
>I swear to Buddha it means that Louise is Mimi Farina on account of she
>looks just like Johanna, who's not here.
"Lesser" in poetic terms? You mean "veneer" is a more "poetic term" than
"mirror?" Why?
Both are essentially a thin layer of surface property that conceal more
than they reveal.
-Max I'm Not There/Here
Jim Kitzmiller
Paul Loeber continues the controversy:
>"She's delicate and seems like a mere Butt....
>This fits in with the idea that the woman in question is little more than a
piece.....
Or, in Bob's talent for many meanings in one word:
She's delicate and seems like a mare Butt...
Which is concisely and clearly a horse's ass.
I hope school has started in the old folks' home, so all the high brows can
take advantage of our explications.
Jim
Patricia Jungwirth
>Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:15:52 -0800
>catherine yronwode <yron...@SONIC.NET>
>Tobocman wrote:
>>
>> I think the essence of this controversy is that the line "she's delicate
>> and seems like the mirror" is nowhere near as imagistic and caustic as
>> "she's delicate and seems like veneer," a credible image and a mild snipe,
>> as well.
>I agree. But this thread made me change my mind. It is mirror, lesser
>though that is in poetic terms.
Care to explain, Cat, why it is "lesser in poetic terms", or, Tobocman, why
"she seems like the mirror" is "nowhere near as imagistic" (let's forget
'caustic' shall we?) - let's not forget that variant "like silk, she seems
like the mirror" which seems no lesser a poetic image to me - tactile as
well as visual. "veneer" seems a little too, well, 'workshop-oriented' to
me, out of whack with the rest of the song - unless she was a carpenter's
wife? "Vermeer" is too obscure - "like *a* Vermeer" might work, but it's
still a bit pernickety to provide an immediate image. Louise is like
Vermeer? In what way? Like a Dutch male painter of genre pictures with
symbolic overtones? Or like the 'woman weighing pearls' (which has a mirror
in it)? Of course, the song itself is a little like a Vermeer - a quiet,
self-contained scene of people involved in seemingly everyday pursuits, but
laden with symbolism... about mirrors, or vermeers, or veneers...
>> What does "she's delicate and seems like the mirror" mean, anyway?
>
>I swear to Buddha it means that Louise is Mimi Farina on account of she
>looks just like Johanna, who's not here.
Which may work okay if Joan was Johanna, but... oh, forget it. If it works
for you, fine. Joan may have liked to think the song was about her, but if
she thought Louise was really Mimi, woh boy...
Tricia (wondering why she didn't keep out of this one?)
Patricia Jungwirth
>Wed, 11 Sep 1996 04:18:32 -0800
>catherine yronwode <yron...@SONIC.NET>
>BREA...@ukcc.uky.edu wrote:
>>
>> na...@ll.mit.edu (nate) writes:
>> <major snip, snip>
>> >
>> >stephen is quite correct that mirror is NO ACCIDENTAL WORD here.
>> >those who may dismiss it may wish to consider:
>> <snip, snip, snip>
>> >john howells is correct when he says that "mirror" is something
>> >that dylan would write, rather than veneer or Vermeer.
>> >mirrors have been a frequent guest in his work. there is much
>> >to think about here.
>> <snip, snip, snip>
>> >
>> >NOW lets restore the quote in question to this line of thought...
>> >
>> > SHE'S DELICATE AND SEEMS LIKE THE MIRROR
>> >
>> >i have no problem with integrating this into all of the above....
>> >"seems", but not "IS" - she ain't Johanna, she ain't the missing
>> >piece, the double at the core of being. nope.
>>
>> <snip, snip, snip>
>>
>> from Bob's introduction to "Man Gave Name to All the Animals," The
>> Meadowlands Arena, October 27, 1981 [an astonishing show, by the way]:
>>
>> "I might be acting a little strange right now, that's because this is
>> a mighty strange place. [unintelligible] Ain't seen nowhere like
>> this. Back in the dressing room there I got a black mirror in my
>> room. I was looking into it just about a half hour ago and I seen two
>> eyes looking back at me. Hmmm."
>
>Seriously, this is great stuff, Nate and Dan -- to which i would like to
>add that Dylan is a Gemini, the sign of the twins. I believe that he is
>aware of this, and whether or not he "believes" in astrology, he uses
>many images of doubling, and twinning, not confining himself to mere
>"mirror" imagery.
Honorable mention to Cat for that "mere "mirror"" phrase, but I want to read
the "great stuff" from Nate and Dan in full. Two posts quoting their posts
have appeared on the digest but not the originals.
What gives?
Tricia (from The Other Side)
John Howells
Jim Kitzmiller wrote:
>
> Paul Loeber continues the controversy:
>
> >"She's delicate and seems like a mere Butt....
>
> >This fits in with the idea that the woman in question is little more than a
> piece.....
>
> Or, in Bob's talent for many meanings in one word:
> She's delicate and seems like a mare Butt...
>
> Which is concisely and clearly a horse's ass.
>
Which also contrasts nicely with the later line about jewels
and binoculars hanging from the head of the mule.
Bill Hester
Said someone (or two), including someone named Bob....
-> She's delicate and seems like the mirror.
The word which seems the most important to understanding the image
in this, if that is possible, is the word "the".
I can understand a mirror
your mirror
her mirror
but I cannot understand _the_ mirror. Can someone help me?
George Rothe
John Howells wrote:
>
> Jim Kitzmiller wrote:
> >
> > Paul Loeber continues the controversy:
> >
> >
>
> Which also contrasts nicely with the later line about jewels
> and binoculars hanging from the head of the mule.
>
> --
>
> John Howells
> how...@sgi.com
> http://reality.sgi.com/howells
so, you're saying this ties into Street Legal...and we should dub that
Blonde on Blonde take 2 ? (how much longer?)
John Howells
Perhaps because he isn't really talking about a mirror. "A mirror"
is prosaic. One mirror is like another, right? "Your mirror" or
"her mirror" would be okay if he really meant mirror. Instead, by
saying THE mirror, he clearly intends something else. What that is
is up to us to figure out.
Mark Carter
In article <8427...@welcom.gen.nz>, bill....@welcom.gen.nz (Bill
Hester) wrote:
> Said someone (or two), including someone named Bob....
>
> -> She's delicate and seems like the mirror.
>
> The word which seems the most important to understanding the image
> in this, if that is possible, is the word "the".
>
> I can understand a mirror
> your mirror
> her mirror
>
> but I cannot understand _the_ mirror. Can someone help me?
The song's partially about interiors--about the relationship between
rooms/ architecture and inner states, I'd say. In the lyrical facet "the
mirror" (there being other facets, such as "veneer"), I'd say it refers to
an actual mirror in the room. That is, assuming some of this verse takes
place indoors: much of it seems to occur outdoors ("In the empty lot..."),
unless the scene is being viewed from a window (like in The Kinks'
magnificent "Waterloo Sunset"). Roaming camera? Shifting perspective? At
least part of verse 1, verse 2, and verse 3 seems to take place indoors,
I'd say--which establishes a certain continuity of setting (or am I
constructing this continuity myself?). Hope this sheds some light!
Mark O:-)
Fred Rosenblatt
In article <323D72...@sgi.com>, John Howells <how...@sgi.com> wrote:
> Bill Hester wrote:
> >
> > Said someone (or two), including someone named Bob....
> >
> > -> She's delicate and seems like the mirror.
> >
> > The word which seems the most important to understanding the image
> > in this, if that is possible, is the word "the".
> >
> > I can understand a mirror
> > your mirror
> > her mirror
> >
> > but I cannot understand _the_ mirror. Can someone help me?
> >
>
> Perhaps because he isn't really talking about a mirror. "A mirror"
> is prosaic. One mirror is like another, right? "Your mirror" or
> "her mirror" would be okay if he really meant mirror. Instead, by
> saying THE mirror, he clearly intends something else. What that is
> is up to us to figure out.
>
"The Mir" is a large and prominent Yeshiva with branches in New York and
Jerusalem. I wouldn't exactly call it delicate, though.
There's also a Russian space station called the Mir, but it probably isn't
that old.
--
The opinions expressed | Ki sham sh'aylunu shovenu divrei shir,
above are mine, and do not | Vetolalenu simcha,
reflect those of the | "Shiru lanu meshir tzion",
Jet Propulsion Laboratory | Ech nashir et shir H' al adamat necher?
Craig Jamieson
Fred Rosenblatt (Frederic.H...@jpl.nasa.gov) wrote:
: In article <323D72...@sgi.com>, John Howells <how...@sgi.com> wrote:
: > Bill Hester wrote:
: > > Said someone (or two), including someone named Bob....
: > > -> She's delicate and seems like the mirror.
: > : Vermeer
: : veneer
: > Perhaps because he isn't really talking about a mirror. "A mirror"
: > is prosaic. One mirror is like another, right? "Your mirror" or
: > "her mirror" would be okay if he really meant mirror. Instead, by
: > saying THE mirror, he clearly intends something else. What that is
: > is up to us to figure out.
: "The Mir" is a large and prominent Yeshiva with branches in New York and
: Jerusalem. I wouldn't exactly call it delicate, though.
: There's also a Russian space station called the Mir, but it probably isn't
: that old.
Yes he did mean the space station. Our hero can predict the future and
has a keen interest in space travel... ;-)