MARY-CHAPIN CARPENTER IS A LESBIAN

[MASONEAGLE]

Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
have you ever seen her with any men? no
all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[amy carraway]

TROLL OVERLOAD!!!!
Crawl back into your troll hole, nutball.
Didn't your mama ever teach you any manners?

[Jonas Ohman]

mason...@aol.com (MASONEAGLE) wrote:

As far as I know she is closely related to her long time producer John
Jennings, but as long as she writes songs and performs them the way
she does I don't care about her sexual preferences. It's not our
business!

Jonas

[PJ Pettigrew]

This has absolutely gone TOO far!

First of all, there is no excuse for such language! Seond of all,
opinions are like a**holes...everyone's got one and they all stink!

Please keep these bigoted and uncalled for remarks off this group!

[mgpjlp]

MASONEAGLE <mason...@aol.com> wrote in article
<55amam$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...

> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
> have you ever seen her with any men? no
> all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
> at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
> SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>

Worse. She's a fuckin' Clinton/Gore loving LIBERAL dyke! The worst kind
of all.

[Melanie Rae Abbott]

Is calling someone gay the big thing in country music now? WHO
CARES?!?!?! If they are, they are. If they're not, they're not.
Can't a person be single in today's world? It seems like everytime
some doesn't have a boy/girl friend they're automatically referred to
as being gay. Personally, I don't care if any singer is gay or isn't.
Their sexuality is not going to affect how the music affects me.
Does anyone else feel the way I do?

MA

[Linda F. Cauthen]

MASONEAGLE,mason...@aol.com,Internet:

>>>Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
have you ever seen her with any men? no
all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<

You're way too late. We debated this one months ago and we're tired of it
now.

Linda

================================================
Sent via The Vine - The Entertainment Industry Online
http://www.vine.org for information

[Untold]

You really can't cannot change ignorance in a person. So if it's
important to you that you believe Mary Chapin Carpenter or any other
female is gay....than you should go on believing it...!!! There is
always a few tasteless jerks hanging around these news groups getting
their rocks off.
untold

[Tech Search]

In article <55amam$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,

mason...@aol.com (MASONEAGLE) wrote:
>Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
>have you ever seen her with any men? no
>all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
>at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
>SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting logic.

It's spelled, "dyke",BTW.

Jeffrey

[peter sauve]

In article <55amam$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mason...@aol.com says...

>
>Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
>have you ever seen her with any men? no
>all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
>at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
>SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

By your reasoning because I saw her kiss a TV image of Leroy Parnell in one of
her video's (Shut Up And Kiss Me) that they must be one HOT !!!!! couple.

Get a life or crawl back in your dark rumor cellar until your ready to come
out in the light and face the world

[Kurt K. LaFrance]

MASONEAGLE (mason...@aol.com) wrote:
: Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it

: have you ever seen her with any men? no
: all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
: at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
: SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO????????????????????????????

--
Kurt LaFrance: kkla...@mtu.edu

"Say yah to da U.P. eh?"
...Remember to never split an infinitive
!edis gnorw eht morf siht ta gnikool era uoY
Either he's dead or my watch has stopped.

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

In article <55amam$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,

mason...@aol.com (MASONEAGLE) wrote:
>Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
>have you ever seen her with any men? no
>all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
>at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
>SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[x]

In <55b9uf$r...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> mab...@ix.netcom.com(Melanie

The issue is not homosexuality. It is how in touch an artist is with
his or her own feelings. Ray Price had an ability to dig deep inside
his own pain and interpret it in a way that plucked the heartstrings of
straights and gays alike. The same with Keith Whitley.

Mary Chapin has many talents, but she just can't seem to reach inside
herself and find truth. Maybe if she went on Prime Time Country and
started blabbing all her inner secrets, it would help to unbottle her
and make her a better artist. I feel these discussions are helpful. I
believe the person who said Bryan White is gay, and it makes me respect
Bryan more. In fact, I now want to go buy his music and listen to how
he is tapping his emotions.

Stella

[x]

In <55d0l9$7...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> mab...@ix.netcom.com(Melanie
Rae Abbott) writes:
>
>Oh get off it. The issue IS homosexuality...Didn't you read the
>orginial post? The person flat out said MCC is a lesbian. Yup,
sounds like an issue of homosexuality to me!

We are not disagreeing, Melanie. If Mary Chapin really is gay, then I
feel it would be good for her to have an affair in public...and I know
just the person for her.

She lives in the White House. And her name is NOT Chelsea.

Stella

[LORIKIRK]

Can y'all save all your bigoted, homophobic, right wing extremist views
for the political boards. I'm sure there you'd find people who agree with
your Jesse Helms-lovin' Clinton-bashin' viewpoints. In fact, check out
the cloak room chat area; lots of militia type psychos there who are just
dying for soulmates. LK

[Bob Marshall]

>Subj: Re: MARY-CHAPIN CARPENTER IS A LESBIAN

Geez, it seems like we go through this every six months! And we always reach
the same conclusion : there are *no* hyphens in MCC's name!

--
=============================================================================
Bob Marshall \\ Marshall's Theorem :
Lockheed Martin Corp. \\
Sunnyvale, CA \\ 2 + 2 approximately equals 5 for
mars...@lmsc.lockheed.com \\ large values of 2
"I tell the truth 'cept when I lie" \\
=============================================================================

[miko]

mason...@aol.com (MASONEAGLE) wrote:
>Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it

blah, blah, blah, blah

and, you are a troll!

miko

[Melanie Rae Abbott]

Oh get off it. The issue IS homosexuality...Didn't you read the
orginial post? The person flat out said MCC is a lesbian. Yup, sounds
like an issue of homosexuality to me!

In <55cvuc$o...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x)
writes:

[Linda F. Cauthen]

qhf...@usit.net,Internet:
>>>I've got another related question. If MCC's father's name is Harry
CHAPIN (Cat's in the Cradle) why is her last name Carpenter instead of
Chapin? I thought she had been married at one point.<<<

The late Harry Chapin was *not* MCC's father. Chapin is her middle name, and
I believe it was her mother's maiden name. (Thisis a common practice in the
East and South.) She prefers to be called "Chapin" rather than "Mary."

[John Dybala]

x (guyg...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: The issue is not homosexuality. It is how in touch an artist is with

: his or her own feelings. Ray Price had an ability to dig deep inside
: his own pain and interpret it in a way that plucked the heartstrings of
: straights and gays alike. The same with Keith Whitley.

Guy, I have news for you: there is no such thing as "gay feelings"
or "hetero feelings." There are only "feelings." Granted, the level
at which you experience certain feelings may be affected by your
sexual orientation, but there are no feelings unique to one group
or the other. So the "knowing the sexual orientation is important
to understanding the feelings expressed in the song" argument doesn't
hold.

: and make her a better artist. I feel these discussions are helpful. I

: believe the person who said Bryan White is gay

I'm sure you do. Because you said it first. Without anything to back
it up other than "he had a lady with him at the CMA's".

John

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Dybala, Dept. of Mathematics, Colorado State University
"Every day the same thing ... bring in the garbage and walk the fly."
Do not send unsolicited commercial e-mail to this address.

[Linda B. Gordon]

Didn't someone several months ago point out that every time MCC gets back in the spotlight, like releasing a new CD, this thread starts up again? Let's see, the woman lived with concert promoter Gary Jackson and bought a house with him and is still
writing songs about that relationship; and she's now involved with Irish musician Paul Brady, but she's over 30 and not been married, and therefore she's gay? Someone asked in a post if MCC had ever been seen with a man, is the poster hanging around
outside her home? How do we know? If being seen in public with a man makes a woman straight, what does that say about the men who to sports events with their male buddies and take off their shirts? Let's all meet back here in a couple of months if the
new CD gets MCC a Grammy nomination. This thread will probably be back in bloom.

[Kenzie McCurdy]

In article <55amam$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mason...@aol.com
(MASONEAGLE) wrote:

> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it

> have you ever seen her with any men? no
> all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
> at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
> SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't necessarily agree, but so what? Doesn't affect her voice, nor
anything else for that matter.

--
Carpe diem!

[Maria Louise Kozi]

Linda F. Cauthen (Linda_F....@vine.org) wrote:
: qhf...@usit.net,Internet:

: >>>I've got another related question. If MCC's father's name is Harry
: CHAPIN (Cat's in the Cradle) why is her last name Carpenter instead of
: Chapin? I thought she had been married at one point.<<<

: The late Harry Chapin was *not* MCC's father. Chapin is her middle name, and
: I believe it was her mother's maiden name. (Thisis a common practice in the
: East and South.) She prefers to be called "Chapin" rather than "Mary."

: Linda

Actually, Chapin is her father's first name-- and part of her first
name. She isn't in anyway related to Harry Chapin.

Maria

[MagnaDan]

>>I've got another related question. If MCC's father's name is Harry
>>CHAPIN (Cat's in the Cradle) why is her last name Carpenter instead of
>>Chapin?

Mary Chapin Carpenter is not related to the late Harry Chapin. In fact,
Chapin is not a last name at all, but part of her first name. Mary Chapin
is similar to being named Mary Beth.

There was a time when she used to hyphenate her name, Mary-Chapin
Carpenter.

[qhf...@usit.net]

I was woefully misinformed. That's what I get for believing the
DJ <G>. I have since found out that her father's name was Chapin
Carpenter.

But regardless of who her parents are, I still don't give a flip what
her sexual prefernce is. I like some of her music, some of it I
don't. But I can say the same thing about nearly everyone performing
both today and yesterday.

Linda_F....@vine.org (Linda F. Cauthen) wrote:

{qhf...@usit.net,Internet:
{>>>I've got another related question. If MCC's father's name is Harry

{CHAPIN (Cat's in the Cradle) why is her last name Carpenter instead of

{Chapin? I thought she had been married at one point.<<<

{The late Harry Chapin was *not* MCC's father. Chapin is her middle name, and
{I believe it was her mother's maiden name. (Thisis a common practice in the
{East and South.) She prefers to be called "Chapin" rather than "Mary."

{Linda

{================================================

[The Black Hat]

qhf...@usit.net wrote:

>
> I've got another related question. If MCC's father's name is Harry
> CHAPIN (Cat's in the Cradle) why is her last name Carpenter instead of
> Chapin? I thought she had been married at one point.

MCC's father's name is Chapin Carpenter, who is or was an editor for
Time-Life. they are not related to Harry or Tom Chapin.

BTW, I agree the whole game of "Spot the Lezzie" is getting totally out
of hand. I guess Ellen DeGeneris or MCC gets most of the monkey
spankers ranting about her love life, but I know a lot of hetero women
in their late 30's and early 40's who look and dress like Mary of Ellen,
with little makeup, and almost always in pants. The were teenagers in
the early '70s when so many of them were hippies and being a 'girl' or a
'sex object' was really uncool. It's just how their values were set
when they were younger.

[George A. Tregear]

On 31 Oct 1996, MASONEAGLE wrote:

> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
> have you ever seen her with any men? no
> all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
> at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
> SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>

And if she is....What's the big deal? Are you that homophobic? you sound
like a real asshole to me pal

[Joe Chew]

> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it

> {Further feats of Sherlock-by-way-of-Oliver-Wendell-Holmesian
> reasoning deleted}

Yeah, there *is* a lot of evidence, such as:

* She ain't pregnant. Woman her age shoulda had six-seven-
eight brats by now. Hell, we start lettin' em get away with
that and next thing you know they'll want to vote.
* Her act does not include butt-nekkid carryin' on with the bass
player on top of the piano, a nearly universal practice among
female musicians who know how important it is to prove to the
audience that they are heterosexual.
* She doubtless knows one or more lesbians, and for all you know
it's catchin', like cooties.

Having established that it's true, now all you have to do is explain
why it's any of the public's business, and what it has to do with her
music. Alternately, you could get a life.

--Joe

[Joe Chew]

[Steve Carter]

In article <55c8s7$9...@news.usit.net>, qhf...@usit.net wrote:

-Ya know, I thought my mother was the only one who thought there was
-something wrong with you if you were single past the age of 20.
-She'll be happy to know she's not alone in her opinions.
-
-I've got another related question. If MCC's father's name is Harry
-CHAPIN (Cat's in the Cradle) why is her last name Carpenter instead of
-Chapin? I thought she had been married at one point.

Uh, first of all Harry Chapin is not her father (Harry had 5 kids, their
names all start with the letter 'J'). Second of all her FIRST NAME is
MARY-CHAPIN.

Steve (aka daddypetfag), totally bypassing the lesbian part of this sorry
thread....

--
Steve Carter
scca...@scripps.edu

[Tim Ringwood]

MagnaDan (magn...@aol.com) wrote:

: >>I've got another related question. If MCC's father's name is Harry
: >>CHAPIN (Cat's in the Cradle) why is her last name Carpenter instead of
: >>Chapin?

: Mary Chapin Carpenter is not related to the late Harry Chapin. In fact,
: Chapin is not a last name at all, but part of her first name. Mary Chapin
: is similar to being named Mary Beth.

: There was a time when she used to hyphenate her name, Mary-Chapin
: Carpenter.

Well that was the record label so people wouldn't file her under "Chapin"
at the record stores. Once she was "know" to a degree they agreed to drop it.

Early concert bills normally didn't have the hyphen I noticed (and confused).

Of course I found her new album filed under Karen Carpenter in pop, but at
least it wasn't "Chapin"!

But that gets away from the is really important thread which has provided me
much entertainment (stupid people can be so enjoyble). Still I need to know!
If Mary is gay, then I need to get a sex change so I still have chance with her. :)

Life is too short to worry about other's people sex lives.
I hardly have enough time to worry about mine.

But let's keep on thing in mind: Mary's new album is wondeful. Don't listen
the she-devil Stella. There are some deep feelings in this record, you just
need to have heart to feel it.

tim

[Joe Chew]

I could be wrong, but what I've read is that she was named Mary;
added the "-Chapin" as a tribute to her father Chapin Carpenter;
and dropped the hyphen after a few years of confusing people.
And that with or without a hyphen, she is no close kin of any sort

to the late Harry Chapin.

Cheers,
Joe, who isn't a lesbian either

[Jamie Jarrell]

WHO GIVES A SHIT????????????????????

On 31 Oct 1996, Kurt K. LaFrance wrote:

> MASONEAGLE (mason...@aol.com) wrote:
> : Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
> : have you ever seen her with any men? no

> : all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
> : at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
> : SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

[mth...@rhrun.com]

JP>In article <55amam$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mason...@aol.com says...
JP>>
JP>>Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
JP>>have you ever seen her with any men? no
JP>>all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
JP>>at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
JP>>SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

JP>By your reasoning because I saw her kiss a TV image of Leroy Parnell in one
JP>her video's (Shut Up And Kiss Me) that they must be one HOT !!!!! couple.

JP>Get a life or crawl back in your dark rumor cellar until your ready to come
JP>out in the light and face the world

Does the sexual orientation of ANY artist matter anyway...they are in
the MUSIC business....their personal lives should be just that PERSONAL!

Mardi

WEBFORGE PRODUCTIONS / ROUNDHOUSE RUN BBS
http://www.rhrun.com / TELNET://rhrun.com
"PITTSBURGH'S HOMETOWN CONNECTION TO THE WORLD"

[Jack Kurtz]

So what is a real artist? Mind you, I can't stand Mariah Carey, and
wouldn't consider her an artist. But where is it written that artists have
to take a vow of poverty. If an artist is successful, they have every
right to enjoy the fruits of the labor. I don't begrudge Mariah Carey
living in a mansion, or the success that MCC, Suzy Boguss or any of a host
of performers enjoys.

(And boy has this thread gotten off track, tho I think it's better than
the tired MCC is a lesbian thing.)

Jack

In article <55sqqa$1...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:
>
> But don't you want more than that? Kurt Cobain's music was his life and
> his life was his music. Now, that's a great artist. The reggae artist
> Peter Tosh, a founding member of the Wailers, died in a hail of
> gunfire. Melissa Etheridge lives on the cutting edge and is having a
> baby with her lesbian lover. kd Lang changed her name to lower-case
> letters. And what about the "Artist Formerly Known as Prince" who went
> all the way and changed his name to a symbol? These are real artists.
>
> I was talking to a guy who delivers heating oil to Mariah Carey's
> house, 20,000 gallons a week. She keeps her mansion, indoor pool and
> indoor tennis court in Bedford at a constant 75 degrees year-round. How
> can someone who lives like that claim to be an artist?
>
> I think a lot of people have forgotten what a real artist is.
>
> Stella

--------------------------------------------
jku...@primenet.com
Jack's Joint - A Home for On-line Photojournalism
http://www.primenet.com/~jkurtz/
----------------------------------------------

[x]

In <jkurtz-0711...@ip205.elp.primenet.com> jku...@primenet.com

(Jack Kurtz) writes:
>
>So what is a real artist? Mind you, I can't stand Mariah Carey, and
>wouldn't consider her an artist. But where is it written that artists
have to take a vow of poverty.

A real artist is an explorer. The artist is pushing the envelope, on
the outside (society, culture) and on the inside ("Who am I?")

An artist is not driven by money. If it comes, fine.

The original human artists were demented neanderthal painters who lived
in caves because they were afraid to go outside and be persecuted. They
didn't paint for money, because who the hell would trade meat for art
back then? They released their angels and demons in the darkness.

Real artists are still releasing their angels and demons in the
darkness. There are no real artists in today's country music except
Suzy.

Stella

[Patrick Nelson]

On 31 Oct 1996, MASONEAGLE wrote:

> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it

> have you ever seen her with any men? no

> all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"

> at awards shows she NEVER has a date.

> SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is this crap. You've never seen her with a man so you assume she is
a lesbian. Well we have yet to see you with a woman, guess you're gay.

Speaking as a member of the gay community in her hometown and someone who
is active in the country gay community here and someone who has worked
with the Nashville people, as well, let me tell you she
is NOT a lesbian. There are several gentlemen here in DC that are former
lover of hers. Get over the dyke thing. Even if she were, what fuck
difference would it make. She would although be a great role model for
gay men and lesbian all across the country.

Get over this....

----------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick R. Nelson
http://www.clark.net/pub/pnelson
pne...@clark.net

T6 C7 L2 h(hl) d- a w v+ t(2,4,6) k+ s- q-
----------------------------------------------------------------

[ronald wayne weaver]

It's spelled DYKE, you moron! You are too stupid to even be an effective
bigot!

[fab4...@aol.com]

>A real artist is an explorer. The artist is pushing the envelope, on
>the outside (society, culture) and on the inside ("Who am I?")

Yes, but you often miss the point. You seem to judge artistry in music
solely on "what it says" rather than "what it sounds like". Both are
important. Sometimes you have listen extremely closely, because the
envelope pushing is in the MUSIC, not the WORDS.
And artistry is not solely about envelope pushing either. Some of the
best, truest artist are consolidators, reflecting the best of what is
around them.
The Beatles, true artists in every sense of the word, were not
astoundingly innovative in the grand sense. What they were was able to put
the pieces around them together in a startlingly original way. A
statement that could also apply to Mozart, not to mention Alan Jackson.

>An artist is not driven by money. If it comes, fine.

True. And whilst I don't consider Mariah Carey an artist, did she start
out in that mansion? No, she did not. Whether or not I particularly care
for her, she got people to buy her albums and is now reaping the rewards.
No, I do not write songs myself to make money either, but if it comes, you
better believe I'm gonna enjoy it!

>Real artists are still releasing their angels and demons in the
>darkness. There are no real artists in today's country music except
>Suzy.

Funny you should say that, since you don't seem to recognize at least half
of your statement--angels. You seem to think that great art "has" to be
about trials and tribulations and horrible life experience. This may come
as a big surprise to someone, like you, who loves to wallow in your own
misery, but some of us have NO demons! Some of us have no need for
therapy. Some of us can write songs, great songs even, without having to
write them about how awful our lives are!

If you think that great art is solely about exorcising demons, then you
are putting the "non-artist" tag on, among other people, Bach and Paul
McCartney. Neither of whom had many demons to speak of.

And there are PLENTY of other artists in country music besides Suzy, by
the way. Suzy's great, but there are plenty others. Too bad you don't have
the wherewithal to look past YOUR extremely narrow vision of what an
artist is.

Frank
Beautiful Downtown Beverly, MA Birthplace of the American Navy
Amateur Radio Operator KA1WZH
"I was a fine idea at the time, now I'm a Brilliant Mistake"--Elvis Costello
"No one I think is in my tree"-Lennon/McCartney
"Show a little inspiration, show a little spark"--Mary Chapin Carpenter

[x]

In <19961108042...@ladder01.news.aol.com> fab4...@aol.com
writes:

>Funny you should say that, since you don't seem to recognize at least
half of your statement--angels. You seem to think that great art "has"
to be about trials and tribulations and horrible life experience. This
may come as a big surprise to someone, like you, who loves to wallow in
your own misery, but some of us have NO demons! Some of us have no need
for therapy. Some of us can write songs, great songs even, without
having to write them about how awful our lives are!
>

There are demons all around. If you don't have them, then write songs
that help the people who do. If you don't see demons in the darkness,
you will never be a real artist, Frank. Look closer.

Stella

"He's just standing up for what he believes in
That's seems pretty damned American to me
Living in the wasteland of the free."

Lyrics by Iris DeMent

[BadBoy]

st...@odyssee.net (Kenzie McCurdy) wrote:

>In article <55amam$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mason...@aol.com

>(MASONEAGLE) wrote:

>> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
>> have you ever seen her with any men? no
>> all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
>> at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
>> SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, the land of opportunities, full of fuckin' intolerant rednecks.
Go and burn a black church, kill a fag, fuck a dike, beat up a
communist and be proud to be an american. Hey, aren't you one of those
guys that rent these videos that promise 'Girls- one on one'?
Or did she steal your girlfriend????

Wake up, buddy
Greetings from Germany
BADBOY

[Geff King]

How could Mary Chapin Carpenter be a Lesbian?

I don't think she's ever been anywhere NEAR Beirut.....:)
<duck n' run>

GBK/ubp

[fab4...@aol.com]

>How could Mary Chapin Carpenter be a Lesbian?

>I don't think she's ever been anywhere NEAR Beirut.....:)
><duck n' run>

My PC has no sound, but when I opened up this post, I distinctly heard a
rimshot.....:-)

[fab4...@aol.com]

>There are demons all around. If you don't have them, then write songs
>that help the people who do. If you don't see demons in the darkness,
>you will never be a real artist, Frank. Look closer.

>Stella

Wrong, wrong, and still wrong. The number one quality an artist needs to
have is being in touch with one's true self, and the ability to be true to
yourself, and with yourself. (Being in touch with your muse doesn't hurt
either).
But what that means is--if I have a wonderfully happy family, the world's
greatest daughter, great parents, a brother who is my best friend, a
decent job--well then my songs are going to reflect that!
And, yes, being an artist requires the ability to pick up "vibes" off of
other people, also, and reflect that. And, yes, I do have and have had
friends who were much more troubled than I, and, yes, being close to them
has often resulted in a song. And I do not have a perfect life (noone
does) and my songs have often resulted from various difficulties in my
life. And sometimes things are too painful to even write about--or, it
takes a long time. (My best friend died of leukemia at age 15--the song
about such did not reveal itself until 10 years later).
But what I just said is important, too--in a very real way, the songs
REVEAL THEMSELVES!. I do not sit down at a desk and say, "I'm gonna write
a tune today." Very few songwriters--and none of my writing friends--do
write that way. (Paul Simon does, but it's rare). Rather, the songs just
come. (For me, it's 95% of the time music first).
Most songwriters I know (and certainly me) work this way. You HOPE your
muse is working, you HOPE your inner self is on speaking terms with your
outer self, and then you just wait. And listen. When I start on a song, I
almost never know what it's going to be about. Sometimes halfway through,
IT tells ME what it's going to be about. On occasion, I have walked around
with a fully-written fully-recorded piece of music for months before the
lyrics reveal themselves to me.
Artists don't have an agenda, Stella. Artists have something inside them
that makes them do what they do. I do not write songs because I WANT to--I
write songs because God, or fate, or whatever you believe in, implanted in
me a deep-seeded need and ability to write them. I could not stop
composing any more than I could stop breathing. If I sat down in front of
the desk, or with the guitar, and thought "I've got SOMETHING to SAY!!!!!
And I think I'll write a song about it!" then I have ceased to be a
songwriter and have become a politician.
What you don't seem to understand about artistry, or songwriting, is the
extremely small amount of control I have over the genesis of my songs!
Yes, once the "seed" is planted, the analytical mind takes over, and the
song gets whipped into shape, consciously, the way I want it. But the seed
by then has been planted, and although the seed (if I am a true artist) is
a reflection of me, I don't have a lot of overt control over it. It comes,
and I deal with it.
My brother, who is a visual artist, tells me the same thing. He says he
never knows exactly what a drawing or painting is going to look like when
it's done until it's done! You got to go with the flow.

[Linda F. Cauthen]

>There are demons all around. If you don't have them, then write songs
>that help the people who do. If you don't see demons in the darkness,
>you will never be a real artist, Frank. Look closer.

>Stella

fab4...@aol.com,Internet:

Frank-
Thanks for letting us hear from a *real* artist, and not just a pretentious
wanna-be with delusions of talent! Hope to get to hear your stuff soon, and
wishing you luck!

[Sincere Slayer]

guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:

> Peter Tosh, a founding member of the Wailers, died in a hail of
> gunfire. Melissa Etheridge lives on the cutting edge and is having a
> baby with her lesbian lover. kd Lang changed her name to lower-case
> letters. And what about the "Artist Formerly Known as Prince" who went
> all the way and changed his name to a symbol? These are real artists.

I'm sorry--how does kd lang changing her initials to lowercase letters
classify her as a "real artist"? Or TAFKAP, now, actually, just "The
Artist," changing to the Unpronounceable Symbol?

> I was talking to a guy who delivers heating oil to Mariah Carey's
> house, 20,000 gallons a week. She keeps her mansion, indoor pool and
> indoor tennis court in Bedford at a constant 75 degrees year-round. How
> can someone who lives like that claim to be an artist?

Nobody here ever said she was. However, if you overlook the fact that
all her songs are basically the same with one word substituted for
another throughout the song, and that word is then The Title, just
because she's finicky about temperature doesn't mean she's not an
artist. It's all the other things that do.

> I think a lot of people have forgotten what a real artist is.

I think some people never knew what one was.

eb
-----
"Were you always this stupid or did you take lessons?"
-Charly (Geena Davis), The Long Kiss Goodnight

[x]

In <19961109054...@ladder01.news.aol.com> fab4...@aol.com
writes:
>

>My brother, who is a visual artist, tells me the same thing. He says
he never knows exactly what a drawing or painting is going to look like
when it's done until it's done! You got to go with the flow.
>
>Frank
>

What you are descibing, Frank, is art which originates in unconscious
mind, which is the greatest and most powerful kind.

We hear almost none of that in today's country music. Country artists
who are capable of such art aren't putting it out to be heard, because
they are intimidated.

Stella

[ejb...@erols.com]

Obviously, you haven't listened to all of her songs!!!

[fab4...@aol.com]

>What you are descibing, Frank, is art which originates in unconscious
>mind, which is the greatest and most powerful kind.

Hmmm....in a way, maybe. I always thought of it another way, myself--being
a devout Christian, the way I always described my songwriting process is
that God implanted in me an ability to hear the music he was transmitting!
Your way of describing it is also valid, I suppose. Less spiritual than I
like to think, but valid. My brother, the agnostic, would no doubt reject
my theory, anyhow!
It's not ALL subconscious, or spritual, though. My brother and I are both
TRAINED in our respective arts. (My brother, having graduated from a
first-rate art school, is truly trained. Except for lots of voice lessons
and some theory classes, I'm mostly self-taught.) There are plenty of
people who can "pick up" what I can, but can't make a decent song out of
it, because they have no training. (Exhibit A: Alanis Morisette). Of
course, there is the opposite extreme--highly trained people who never had
a good idea in their lives. (Exhibit B: Mariah Carey).

>We hear almost none of that in today's country music. Country artists
>who are capable of such art aren't putting it out to be heard, because
>they are intimidated.

Well, you've been quoting Iris DeMent, who's albums are readily available
in the country section of my local store. And there are plenty others.

[fab4...@aol.com]

>Does that sound like Mary Chapin? Of course not. That's Iris DeMent.
>Mary Chapin has never recorded a song half that gritty or defiant in
>her whole life, even though she was given the gift and opportunity. She
>doesn't have the guts to use the talent God gave her.

Bullcrap as usual. Hey, I LOVE Iris DeMent, and think she has a truckload
of talent. But just because she and Mary Chapin do different things, does
not invalidate either one of them.
I bought MCC's new album on my daughter's first birthday. I took it home
and Brigid and I listened to it together, since the little one loves
country almost as much as she loves the Beatles! :-) Anyhow, at the end of
a perfectly wonderful CD, the song "A Place in the World" came on. Since I
found my own personal "place in the world" the day my daughter was born,
and we were celebrating the first anniversary of that momentous occasion,
I found this song extremely moving. In fact I cried, and laughed at the
same time, as I listened to this wonderful, beautiful, song and watched my
precious little bundle of joy attempting to dance to it!
That is as valid as anything by Iris DeMent or anyone else you want to
name. Yes, sometimes good art is confrontational, and needs to be. (Elvis
Costello, one of the most brutal, confrontational artist EVER, is one of
my favorites). But great art can also be life-affirming!!!!
Talent does NOT mean the ability to be "gritty and defiant"!!!!!! You will
NEVER EVER understand this, will you?
John Lennon, a guy who at times could be as defiant as you wanna get, also
wrote these words: "Love is Real. Real is Love." Something else I would
lay odds that you don't understand!
One of the things that Mary Chapin did with her considerable talents is
take a lullaby she had written, and turn it into a lovely children's book.
She got a fine illustrator to work with her, and it's very nice. Since my
one-year-old needs to be read to every night before she goes to sleep,
that gesture by Mary Chapin means a HELL of a lot more to me than Iris
Dement telling me a whole bunch of things that I can just as well read on
the front page of the Boston Globe!

[x]

In <19961110053...@ladder01.news.aol.com> fab4...@aol.com
writes:

>
>>What you are descibing, Frank, is art which originates in unconscious
>>mind, which is the greatest and most powerful kind.

>Hmmm....in a way, maybe. I always thought of it another way,
myself--being a devout Christian, the way I always described my
songwriting process is that God implanted in me an ability to hear the
music he was transmitting! Your way of describing it is also valid, I
suppose. Less spiritual than I like to think, but valid.

God is the source of all unconscious thought...the God inside us. What
mind can conceive, man can achieve.

Stella

[Sarah H Lemaire]

: Every single one of them...over and over. Which of her songs do you
: think is defiant and gritty?

: Stella

Off the top of my head, I'd say "You Win Again" from her CD "Shooting
Straight in the Dark" qualifies as "defiant and gritty."

Sarah

[x]

In <563gsh$p...@boursy.news.erols.com> ejb...@erols.com writes:
>
>Obviously, you haven't listened to all of her songs!!!
>

Every single one of them...over and over. Which of her songs do you

[x]

In <E0o91...@world.std.com> s...@world.std.com (Sarah H Lemaire)
writes:

>Off the top of my head, I'd say "You Win Again" from her CD "Shooting
>Straight in the Dark" qualifies as "defiant and gritty."
>
>Sarah

"You Win Again" is a pretty good song. It captures a feeling of
vulnerability and irony because the realization that "you win again" is
an awakening and step toward self-respect. Her anger is polite and
poetic, which is the way many women have been taught to express it.

The voice is one of a person who has been used a lot. The person who is
using her is sexless...could be a man or a woman. It's a song of
frustration about not being able to connect with a string of people to
whom she feels deep affection. Shrinks would tell you that this person
is really frustrated at herself, at her inability to get people to like
her as much as she likes them.

She is trying to hard. She needs to read "The Rules."

"And I woke up trembling with my heart in my throat
'Cause there's never a look or a word or a note
At the bitter end
Baby you win again"

Lyrics by MCC

Thanks, Sarah, for making me listen again and appreciate more.

Stella

[Tgrrlily]

On 9 Nov 1996 15:41:23 GMT, guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:

>Patrick, I think by now we know where Mary Chapin fits in. She's
>another Loretta Lynn, a woman who once had great potential as a
>hell-raiser but sold out for corporate cash. With each album, MCC's
>music gets progressively more lightweight, and she goes out of her way
>to avoid stirring controversy.
>
I disagree. I think that Stones In The Road was one of the finest
that MCC ever made. And I'm not sure 1) that I agree that one can
only be an artist if you are defiant and tackle controversial issues
head-on, and 2) that MCC refrains from taking on hard issues.

Re 1) Some of MCC's best songs speak to the human condition without
making a political statement, like "Jubilee", "The Moon and St.
Christopher," and "This is Love," to name just the first three that
popped into my head. I know there are many more.

Re 2) Listen to these lyrics:

The starving children have been replaced by souls out on the street
We give a dollar when we pass and hope our eyes don't meet
We pencil in, we cancel out. we crave the corner suite
We kiss your ass, we make you hold, we doctor the receipt
And the stones in the road fly out from beneath our wheels
Another day, another deal before we get back home
And the stones in the road leave a mark whence they came
A thousand points of light or shame
Baby, I don't know.

Mary Chapin Carpenter, Stones in the Road, 1992

That sounds to me like somebody who's speaking out for something that
she believes in.

Maria

[x]

In <3286b96e....@news.esinet.net> tgrr...@esinet.net (Tgrrlily)
writes:

>The starving children have been replaced by souls out on the street
>We give a dollar when we pass and hope our eyes don't meet
>We pencil in, we cancel out. we crave the corner suite
>We kiss your ass, we make you hold, we doctor the receipt
>And the stones in the road fly out from beneath our wheels
>Another day, another deal before we get back home
>And the stones in the road leave a mark whence they came
>A thousand points of light or shame
>Baby, I don't know.
>
>Mary Chapin Carpenter, Stones in the Road, 1992
>
>That sounds to me like somebody who's speaking out for something that
>she believes in.
>
>Maria

What is she speaking out for? This song sounds contrived to me. It's a
Baby Boomer "feel-good" with just enough liberal-angst to be
politically correct. It's song-writing chicanery. There is no true
feeling at its soul.

MCC says she is "Newt Gingrich's worst nightmare" but she doesn't write
or sing to show it. No wonder the conservatives don't target her, as
they do Natalie Merchant, kd lang, Melissa Etheridge and Tracy Chapman.
MCC has artfully managed to cultivate an image as a somewhat tough and
socially-conscious artist without taking any commercial risk. She wants
to be Newt's worse nightmare while also selling records to the
Newt-ites." She has done NOTHING to advance the cause of women or
minorities in country music. It's time she put up or shut up.

Stella

[Sincere Slayer]

guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:

> What is she speaking out for? This song sounds contrived to me. It's a
> Baby Boomer "feel-good" with just enough liberal-angst to be
> politically correct. It's song-writing chicanery. There is no true
> feeling at its soul.

Perhaps not as you *personally* interpret it. It sure meant more
than that to me.

> MCC says she is "Newt Gingrich's worst nightmare" but she doesn't write
> or sing to show it. No wonder the conservatives don't target her, as

Are you perfectly incapable of telling when someone is not being
entirely serious? I can't remember the exact words she said at
the concert where I heard it (June 7, 1995, LA, Greek Theatre), but
it was something like "I'm for funding for the arts and the school
lunch program. Allow me to introduce myself..." Does that sound
like someone who's really going to be Newt's worst nightmare? MCC
is a charming, intelligent, creative woman--isn't that enough for
you?

> they do Natalie Merchant, kd lang, Melissa Etheridge and Tracy Chapman.

Quote one socially or politically relevant Natalie Merchant song.
Or a kd lang song. Or a Tracy Chapman song, or a Melissa Etheridge
song. If they're putting all their energy into being politically
relevant, not to mention *correct*, maybe they're not that creative
if that's all they can think of to write about. I'm not saying I
don't enjoy the work of those artists--Merchant is a fine singer,
though her lyrics often seem contrived, seems likable; kd lang has
one of the best voices in any genre and a nice attitude, and Etheridge
and Chapman are tolerable in small doses. But MCC is an artist young
girls can idolize, one who manages to speak articulately about any
subject, who is artistically successful *and* creative.

> Newt-ites." She has done NOTHING to advance the cause of women or
> minorities in country music.

Who says she has to?

> It's time she put up or shut up.

Maybe it's time you did.

eb
-----
"My mom always said, 'Why mow the lawn in somebody else's backyard
if they have a leafblower?'. . .actually, my dad said that."
-Bonnie (Bonnie Hunt), "The Bonnie Hunt Show"

[x]

In <32879...@mothra.westworld.com> Sincere Slayer <eir...@ptw.com>
writes:

>I can't remember the exact words she said at
>the concert where I heard it (June 7, 1995, LA, Greek Theatre), but
>it was something like "I'm for funding for the arts and the school
>lunch program. Allow me to introduce myself..."

>Quote one socially or politically relevant Natalie Merchant song.
>Or a kd lang song. Or a Tracy Chapman song, or a Melissa Etheridge
>song.

Oh, please. Who isn't for funding the arts and school lunches?

That's just my point...MCC plays softball. She won't tackle any hard
issue, for fear of losing her country music fan base.

Natalie Merchant has tackled every hardball issue out there...child
abuse ("What's the Matter Here"), capital punishment ("I'm Not the
Man"), alcoholism ("Don't Talk"), mental illness ("Like the Weather"),
feminist history ("Gold Rush Brides"), the environment ("Poison in the
Water") and on and on. I've read conservative op-ed columns declaring
her a major enemy of traditional American values, with calls to boycott
her music. Tracy Chapman showed the world in her first two albums that
folk music could be about the inner city, and she hit as hard as they
come. Both kd and Melissa have been outspoken voices for gays and
lesbians, with their lives and music.

MCC has done nothing like this, in music or out. She is terrified. She
only wants to play softball. I'm not doubting her ability. I'm doubting
her GUTS!

Stella

[Sincere Slayer]

guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:

> She is trying to hard. She needs to read "The Rules."

Tell me you're not serious.

eb
----
"Egad, man, what's the point?"
-The Tick

[Jon Weisberger]

Sincere Slayer <eir...@ptw.com> wrote in article
<32879...@mothra.westworld.com>...

> guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:
>
> > She is trying to hard. She needs to read "The Rules."
>
> Tell me you're not serious.

It isn't. It's just yanking your chain, declaring itself to be feminist
and then recommending "The Rules," declaring itself to be anti-racist and
then complaining about Shania Twain's using "n------" (except it didn't
put dashes) for vocal backup, etc., etc., etc. There's not a shred of
intellectual or moral integrity to its posts, and you are merely
encouraging it by continuing such discussions.

[x]

In <01bbd0a7$4396e920$2c2db7c7@jon-weisberger> "Jon Weisberger"
<jo...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>It isn't. It's just yanking your chain, declaring itself to be
feminist and then recommending "The Rules," declaring itself to be
anti-racist and then complaining about Shania Twain's using "n------"
(except it didn't put dashes) for vocal backup, etc., etc., etc.
There's not a shred of intellectual or moral integrity to its posts,
and you are merely encouraging it by continuing such discussions.

How dare you accuse me of chain-yanking. I said that the voice singing
in MCC's song "You Win Again" is tired of being used by her lovers. She
cares more about people than people care about her. The "You" in this
song is figurative and plural. This woman is trying too hard and
looking for love in all the wrong places. That's exactly what "The
Rules" was designed to do...sell books to these kind of vulnerable
women and turn them from doormats into fighting machines.

I think you need to read "The Rules," Jon.

Stella

[Tim Ringwood]

Tgrrlily (tgrr...@esinet.net) wrote:

: On 9 Nov 1996 15:41:23 GMT, guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:

: >Patrick, I think by now we know where Mary Chapin fits in. She's
: >another Loretta Lynn, a woman who once had great potential as a
: >hell-raiser but sold out for corporate cash. With each album, MCC's
: >music gets progressively more lightweight, and she goes out of her way
: >to avoid stirring controversy.
: >
: I disagree. I think that Stones In The Road was one of the finest
: that MCC ever made.

Many people disagree with guygrand (i.e Stella). Mary's lyrics and
music touch me and speak to me like very few others and I hear lots
of personal and real feelings in those lyrics. And how somebody
can't see that and calls "Stones In The Road" lighweight album
is beyond my conception.

Listen to her very first album, "Hometown Girl" and her last and
anybody with a bean of intelligence will grasp what "Stella" is
trying to pass a truth about Mary is just dellusions and an attempt
to feel important and rightous. It's a rather sad attempt.

tim

[Sincere Slayer]

"Jon Weisberger" <jo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> put dashes) for vocal backup, etc., etc., etc. There's not a shred of
> intellectual or moral integrity to its posts, and you are merely
> encouraging it by continuing such discussions.

Of course. I don't know why I keep it up--perhaps it is that entire
lack of intellectual or moral integrity to s/he/it's posts that keeps
me coming back, in the hopes that something even remotely coherent
will be said by s/he/it.

"Egad, man, what's the *point*?"
-The Tick

eb
-----
"As an actress, I have one rule for myself. Fuck the rules."
-Gina Gershon

[Sincere Slayer]

anon-...@anon.twwells.com (Jimbo) wrote:

> Hey Stella, lighten up. Nobody in this group wants to hear you
> views. They come here for fun and music. If you want to spew you
> inanities, go to alt.dyke.

I was all set to agree with you and go on to the next post until
that absolutely moronic, idiotic last statement. Lesbians
don't want Stella/Guy/RT/Warholian Thing polluting their ng anymore
than country music listeners do. Why add the little snipe, anon-boy?

Whatever.

eb
-----
"What did she do to you?"
"Everything you never could."

[Ken Milne]

fab4...@aol.com wrote:

...> :-) Anyhow, at the end of

> a perfectly wonderful CD, the song "A Place in the World" came on. Since I
> found my own personal "place in the world" the day my daughter was born,
> and we were celebrating the first anniversary of that momentous occasion,
> I found this song extremely moving. In fact I cried, and laughed at the
> same time, as I listened to this wonderful, beautiful, song and watched my
> precious little bundle of joy attempting to dance to it!

Given this I know you would be moved by Don White's song "I Know What Love Is". The
album is a mixed bag, but this is one of the greatest, literally, songs I have ever
heard. Very very moving. Primarily because, like Iris Dement, there is not a phony or
even self studied, thought, emotion or breath in the work. This is not avaliable in
stores, but you can call Don at his home in Sommerville to order it. I guarantee you
will not be sorry.

I like MCC too, but her work does not have the dead-honest character that a very few
artists do have. MCC sings songs; Iris takes you into her confidence and tells you the
intimate insights she has into her own life. Over 30 years ago Bob Dylan was describing
Iris Dement in the line: "...she tells me of her dreams, without shoveling each into the
ditch of what each one means."

[William Smith]

I think the latest MCC CD is a disappointment. And the new Iris Dement
CD is a real firecracker -- a real angry honest scream of a record.
But Stones in the Road is also a pretty good song. Maybe more resigned
than defiant.

On 11 Nov 1996 00:01:05 GMT, guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:

>In <E0o91...@world.std.com> s...@world.std.com (Sarah H Lemaire)
>writes:
>
>>Off the top of my head, I'd say "You Win Again" from her CD "Shooting
>>Straight in the Dark" qualifies as "defiant and gritty."
>>
>>Sarah
>
>
>"You Win Again" is a pretty good song. It captures a feeling of
>vulnerability and irony because the realization that "you win again" is
>an awakening and step toward self-respect. Her anger is polite and
>poetic, which is the way many women have been taught to express it.
>
>The voice is one of a person who has been used a lot. The person who is
>using her is sexless...could be a man or a woman. It's a song of
>frustration about not being able to connect with a string of people to
>whom she feels deep affection. Shrinks would tell you that this person
>is really frustrated at herself, at her inability to get people to like
>her as much as she likes them.
>

>She is trying to hard. She needs to read "The Rules."
>
>

[wil...@hg.uleth.ca]

Personally I like MCC best when she sticks to fairly straight up-beat
country music. I find her "meaningful introspective" stuff to be
kinda pompous, and dreary and depressing.

I think the role of the musician is to entertain. I don't need to hear
angst to be entertained.

Pete

[Joe Chew]

Well, artists who go for a Heavy Message all the time make me
think of a line from "The Angry Young Man" by Billy Joel:
"His honor is pure, and his courage as well/
And he's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell."

Most of Carpenter's material is more personal than political
(as is true of Melissa Etheridge, another artist deprecated by
some participants in this thread); why does that make her wrong,
or invalidate a social message when she gives one?

Now, whether MCC's band's too much in love with drums and bass and
not sufficiently imaginative with same, that's another question...

--Joe "Ahh, it isn't a rut, it's leitmotif" Chew

[Sincere Slayer]

In <32879...@mothra.westworld.com> Sincere Slayer <eir...@ptw.com>
writes:

>I can't remember the exact words she said at
>the concert where I heard it (June 7, 1995, LA, Greek Theatre), but
>it was something like "I'm for funding for the arts and the school
>lunch program. Allow me to introduce myself..."

>Quote one socially or politically relevant Natalie Merchant song.
>Or a kd lang song. Or a Tracy Chapman song, or a Melissa Etheridge
>song.

> Oh, please. Who isn't for funding the arts and school lunches?

Newt Gingrich, obviously.

>That's just my point...MCC plays softball. She won't tackle any hard
>issue, for fear of losing her country music fan base.

So what? Why does she *have* to in order to be a good artist?
The answer is, she doesn't. You're just some demented follower
of one of the most overrated artists and *people* of the last century.
Why take anything you say even remotely seriously? Can you explain why
anyone here should?

>Natalie Merchant has tackled every hardball issue out there...child
>abuse ("What's the Matter Here"), capital punishment ("I'm Not the
>Man"), alcoholism ("Don't Talk"), mental illness ("Like the Weather"),
>feminist history ("Gold Rush Brides"), the environment ("Poison in the
>Water") and on and on.

Does this somehow make her better *artistically* or creatively than
MCC? No!

>I've read conservative op-ed columns declaring
>her a major enemy of traditional American values, with calls to boycott
>her music.

Which newspapers?

>Tracy Chapman showed the world in her first two albums that
>folk music could be about the inner city, and she hit as hard as they
>come.

Ever heard of Ani DiFranco? She does it a lot better.

>Both kd and Melissa have been outspoken voices for gays and
>lesbians, with their lives and music.

What does that have to do with ARTISTRY? Chapman got a lucky break
and had a couple of stupid radio hits. DiFranco has her own
label and a doggedly devoted fan base of young women who idolize her.
Who's the better artist? Who knows? It's all so subjective, Guy.
You like Merchant and Etheridge and the rest, fine, bully for you.
Does that make them better *artists* than those you don't? No!

>MCC has done nothing like this, in music or out.

SO WHAT?

>She is terrified. She only wants to play softball. I'm not doubting
>her ability. I'm doubting her GUTS!

You go ahead and doubt until the sun don't shine, Guy. I'm sure
she'll just be *heartbroken* over the loss of someone like you from

her "country music fan base."

eb
-----
"It's always nice to have a couple of insignificant others around."
-Gina Gershon

Stella

[bosto...@aol.com]

If MCC is playing softball, then what is Shania Twain playing?

[Linda F. Cauthen]

bosto...@aol.com,Internet:

>>>If MCC is playing softball, then what is Shania Twain playing?<<<

Tiddley-winks? Liar's poker? Or maybe just off-key!

Linda

================================================
Sent via The Vine - The Entertainment Industry Online
http://www.vine.org for information

[x]

In <19961114001...@ladder01.news.aol.com> bosto...@aol.com
writes:

>If MCC is playing softball, then what is Shania Twain playing?

Twiddly winks.

[x]

In <328ab...@mothra.westworld.com> Sincere Slayer <eir...@ptw.com>
writes:

>>Natalie Merchant has tackled every hardball issue out there...child
abuse ("What's the Matter Here"), capital punishment ("I'm Not the
Man"), alcoholism ("Don't Talk"), mental illness ("Like the Weather"),
feminist history ("Gold Rush Brides"), the environment ("Poison in the
Water") and on and on.
>
>Does this somehow make her better *artistically* or creatively than
>MCC? No!

It does. Natalie has taken her God-given talent and used it to
explore...her world and herself. She is unafraid to turn new pages,
even if they reveal unpleasant truths. I didn't mention her finest song
of all, "Dust Bowl", off 10,000 Maniacs "Blind Man's Zoo." It is the
purest pop song ever written about the economic plight of single
working mothers, and pure poetry set to music. The same can be said of
Tracy Chapman's "Fast Car" about the plight of inner-city young women
who want to get out and uplift themselves.

Natalie and Tracy have many songs just below these two pinnacles. As I
said, MCC has been struck with the gift of a purely beautiful song once
in her life. That song is "Something of a Dreamer" and beneath that
there is very little of lasting quality in her work to date. I do
believe that the failure of "A Place in the World" will wake her up to
the need to take more risk, explore herself and her world deeper, and
challenge herself to equal songs like "Dust Bowl" and "Fast Car" in
quality. She has the talent and potential to do it.

Stella

P.S. Ani Difranco has just one album, I have it, and it is
disappointing to me.

[mls...@preferred.com]

And your point is?

[Maria Louise Kozi]

: P.S. Ani Difranco has just one album, I have it, and it is
: disappointing to me.

Sorry, no, Ani DiFranco has about eight albums out. Too bad you don't
appreciate her, I personally think she's a pertty incredible writer, and
an amazing musician.

Maria

--
******************************************************************************
Maria Kozi * "She sits there like America
mlk...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu * suffering through slow reform...She
* is still playing the martyr, I am
George Washington University * still praying for revolution"
Washington, DC * Ani DiFranco
* "Fixing Her Hair"
******************************************************************************

[x]

In <328B69...@worldnet.att.net> Jeb Hoge <EIE...@worldnet.att.net>
writes:

>> I think you need to read "The Rules," Jon.

>My girlfriend works in a bookstore; she flipped though it a while back
and then tried explaining to me why it all made sense. Then I
explained right back to her why it was 1) offensive and 2)
self-perpetuating. The more women try to follow these rules, the more
they'll have to use them as excuses for why their lives aren't
>the way they want them. There will be a sequel...count on it.

>Jeb Hoge

I don't think you understand women very well, Jeb. Let's take Mary
Chapin Carpenter, for example. She came from a nice Princeton family,
has a good Rhode Island education, and then let her life get scuzzy
with country music. Why? She has enough talent to play her guitar on
VH1 out in the dessert, like Shawn Colvin. So why does MCC get all
misty-eyed over winning awards in Nashville? Why wasn't she invited to
the Jingle Ball with Sheryl, Shawn, Jewel, Lea, Joan, Melissa and the
rest of the in-girls? I'll tell you why...because in the in-girl
circles, country isn't cool. Mary Chapin is seen as a greaser who
lowered herself and took a cheap date. But if Mary Chapin reads "The
Rules" and gets tough and starts playing like an in-girl, she can get
invited to next year's Newport Folk Fest and Jingle Ball and maybe even
duet with Ani DiFranco, which is way-cool. And she might get to go to
the Mike Tyson fight, too, and be on E.T...but only if she knows "The
Rules."

Stella

[tro...@aol.com]

No, I'm not going to get into this discussion. Mary Chapin Carpenter is a
favorite of mine but I have no need to defend her activism or lack there
of, or her sexual preference. I just feel a change in the title of the
thread is called for.

--Sherry

[Sincere Slayer]

guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) wrote:

> P.S. Ani Difranco has just one album, I have it, and it is
> disappointing to me.

Uh, no. Ani DiFranco has eight albums. How can it be disappointing
to you? If you are what you say, which you obviously are not, she
would seem to embody everything you supposedly "stand for." She
is an outspoken, political, feminist, bisexual, idolized 26-year-old
with more talent in her little toe than Merchant, Etheridge, and
Chapman combined.

Listen to this:
"Well, I'm a socialist and an anarchist, I'm
kinda straddling the fence there. So I can't
bring myself to work for Warners or any such
entity. I won't fool myself for a second into
thinking that people in the industry even give a
shit about music, let alone society; that's totally
not the point for them. I've been getting all
sort's of offers for a long time, but I just don't
find the music industry-- or any huge corporate
capitalist system -- very interesting. And the
growth of my career might be ultimately
stunted by that, but I don't care. I'd rather be able
to face myself in the bathroom mirror than to be rich
and famous."
-Ani DiFranco

Does that not sound very much like the crap you've been spewing
at us about how politicism makes a good artist? If that's true,
then Ani DiFranco should be the goddess of your little world--but
she believes what she says and you're just a poser, if that
dignified, so really, you're unworthy of even existing in the
same WORLD as talented, *intelligent* people like Ani and MCC.

Try this, from "As Is," an unreleased song of Ani's.

just give up and admit you're an asshole
you would be in some good company
i think you'd find that your friends would forgive you
or maybe i am just speaking for me

Or this:

you can't hide
behind social graces
cuz I don't buy it
like everyone else
and you can lie
in my face of all places
just don't lie to yourself .
cuz I've got no illusions about you

Or, from "Untouchable Face," on Dilate, her latest:

tell you the truth i prefer
the worst of you
too bad you had to have a better half
she's not really my type
but i think you two are forever
and i hate to say it but
you're perfect together

so fuck you
and your untouchable face
and fuck you
for existing in the first place
and who am i
that i should be vying for your touch
and who am i
i bet you can't even tell me that much

two-thirty in the morning
and my gas tank will be empty soon
neon sign on the horizon
rubbing elbows with the moon
a safe haven of sleepless
where the deep fryer's always on
radio is counting down
the top 20 country songs
and out on the porch the fly strip is
waving like a flag in the wind
y'know, i don't look forward
to seeing you again soon
you'll look like a photograph of yourself
taken from far far away
and i won't know what to do
and i won't know what to say

except fuck you

Now, don't all of those sound exactly like the type of songs "Stella"
would like, Guy? One of the first things they'll ever teach you in
a Creative Writing class is that if you say a character knows
something, believes in something, enjoys something, study it. You'd
make a very bad writer, Guy, and a very bad actor as well. Study
your subject and avoid stupid mistakes. As for Ani and MCC...I'm
sure they would laugh at "Stella" and her misguided activism. Take
it elsewhere, Guy--alt.schizophrenia, perhaps? Nah. The
genuine schizophrenics probably wouldn't want you hanging around,
either. If you somehow get off on all of this, all of us I'm sure
would be much happier if you'd just find some other creative
outlet for your frustrated sexual energy. Really.

Now.
To answer the rest of your post...

> It does. Natalie has taken her God-given talent and used it to
> explore...her world and herself.

How trite. What "God-given" talent is that? To make appropriately
pithy quotes to the press and inspire nutcases like you? Poor, poor
Natalie, and I'm glad I am an atheist.

>She is unafraid to turn new pages,

Trite, trite, trite...

> even if they reveal unpleasant truths. I didn't mention her finest song
> of all, "Dust Bowl", off 10,000 Maniacs "Blind Man's Zoo." It is the
> purest pop song ever written about the economic plight of single
> working mothers, and pure poetry set to music.

How do you know? Have you heard every pop song about the economic
plight of working mothers? Go listen to some Ani, some Michelle
Shocked, some genuine poetry, and then come back with a report.
Until then, either get a clue about what you're talking about or
shut up.

>The same can be said of Tracy Chapman's "Fast Car" about the plight
>of inner-city young women who want to get out and uplift themselves.

And, tell me, what is the social and political significance of
"Give Me One Reason"?

> Natalie and Tracy have many songs just below these two pinnacles. As I
> said, MCC has been struck with the gift of a purely beautiful song once
> in her life. That song is "Something of a Dreamer" and beneath that
> there is very little of lasting quality in her work to date. I do

Why do you pick that song out of her entire repertoire? You don't
know a thing about MCC, I'm willing to bet--about her life, about
her career--do you even own one of her albums? Do you even know
how many she has?

> believe that the failure of "A Place in the World" will wake her up to

Failure? What failure? A Place in the World debuted at No. 20 on
Billboard's general Album Charts, Number 3. national Country charts,
and number 2 on the Southern California Country Charts. Granted,
it's not up to par with the first-week sales of Stones in the Road,
but neither was Come On Come On, her biggest album so far. Plus,
Stones didn't have to compete with new releases from Alan Jackson
and John Michael Montgomery, not to mention Reber and Terri Clark.

Critically, I've seen only three reviews; the LA Times gave it 2 and
a half of five stars--they gave Stones three--, People Weekly gave
it a very, very good review, and Entertainment Weekly gave it a
mediocre review in the B range. Plus, in reviewing Reber's new one,
they said, "In effect, she has recorded her first Mary Chapin
Carpenter album." She is, apparently, held in high esteem by the
critical community.

Personally, I'd say while "A Place in the World" is not MCC's best
album in my book, it's certainly better than 95% of the rest of what's
out there, and it's my favorite album this year.

So, commercially, critically, and personally, I see no "failure."

> the need to take more risk, explore herself and her world deeper, and
> challenge herself to equal songs like "Dust Bowl" and "Fast Car" in
> quality. She has the talent and potential to do it.

I'm sure if she read that, she would feel very honored that
you thought so...sure, a hermaphroditic, insane, ex-con, pseudo-
Warholian "being" with nothing better to do than screw around on the
Net thinks she has a lot of potential and talent. I could see how
she'd just be thrilled.

eb
------
"I speak without reservation from what I know and who I am. I do so
with the understanding that all people should have the right to offer
their voice to the chorus whether the result is harmony or dissonance,
the worldsong is a colorless dirge without the differences that
distinguish us, and it is that difference which should be celebrated
not condemned. Should any part of my music offend you, please do not
close your ears to it. Just take what you can use and go on."
-Ani DiFranco

[x]

In <56fr5c$5...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> mlk...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Maria
Louise Kozi) writes:

>Sorry, no, Ani DiFranco has about eight albums out. Too bad you don't
appreciate her, I personally think she's a pertty incredible writer,
and
>an amazing musician.
>
>Maria

Thanks for your help, Maria. The Ani Difranco album I have is called
"Dilate." I like the words but don't get a big buzz or powerful vibes
from it, particularly of the hands or neck kind. I am going to listen
hard again based on your advice. Maybe it's one of those albums that
sneaks up and kicks like a mule...and the next thing you know you are
lying on the floor all catatonic.

In the first song on the album, I like the way Ani says "fuck you" over
and over. I just can't understand why she doesn't get any airplay on
country music radio.

Stella

[x]

In <328be...@mothra.westworld.com> Sincere Slayer <eir...@ptw.com>
writes:

>Why do you pick that song out of her entire repertoire? You don't
>know a thing about MCC, I'm willing to bet--about her life, about
>her career--do you even own one of her albums? Do you even know
>how many she has?

I picked "Something of a Dreamer" because it is a pure and honest song
with beautiful lyrics and a beautiful melody. It is deeply moving. I
never get tired of hearing it.

I have all MCC's albums and play them all often.

Hometown Girl--fresh, honest, exploring and getting there.
State of the Heart--terrific
Shooting Straight in the Dark--okay
Come On, Come On--commercial and catchy
Stones in the Road--disappointing; the last half just bogs down, like
she is running out of oxygen.

I just got the new album and am not yet ready to say it's bad. Give me
a couple of days.

As for the album being a commercial failure, check back in ten weeks.

Why can't Mary Chapin come out with something a little bit defiant? Why
can't she fight back and stand up for women like Suzy? Why can't she
champion the idea of non-white women in country music, even as
musicians or back-ups? Is the cartel that intimidating to her? Doesn't
she realize how much better she would feel about herself if just once
she told the bastards in Nashville to "go to hell"?

As for me being a hermaphroditic, insane, ex-con, pseudo-
Warholian being, I can't help it. I can't change it. I just try to feel
better about myself through my Net therapy, and ignore all the people
who stare at me.

Stella

P.S. Do not buy the new Michelle Shocked album. It is a weak soup of
stuff.

[don...@aol.com]

In article <19961114150...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tro...@aol.com writes:

Thank you, thank you, thank you...hope you don't mind my finishing the
job...

Dondi

[don...@aol.com]

In article <56fr5c$5...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>, mlk...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
(Maria Louise Kozi) writes:

>: P.S. Ani Difranco has just one album, I have it, and it is
>: disappointing to me.
>

>Sorry, no, Ani DiFranco has about eight albums out. Too bad you don't
>appreciate her, I personally think she's a pertty incredible writer, and
>an amazing musician.
>
>Maria
>
>

Maria, there *must* be some mistake. Guy is very authoritative and quite
infallible.
Perhaps there is *another* Ani DiFranco making records...

Dondi

[x]

In <328be...@mothra.westworld.com> Sincere Slayer <eir...@ptw.com>
writes:

>Uh, no. Ani DiFranco has eight albums. How can it be disappointing

>to you? If you are what you say, which you obviously are not, she
>would seem to embody everything you supposedly "stand for." She
>is an outspoken, political, feminist, bisexual, idolized 26-year-old
>with more talent in her little toe than Merchant, Etheridge, and
>Chapman combined.

I've now spent several hours listening intently to Ani and I have to
tell you she is just too rough and weird for me. I know this makes me
seem old-fashion and out-of-touch...

Here's what today's NY Post says about her: "Not only are her original
songs insightful, powerful and compelling, this 26-year old has the
business savvy to run Righteous Babe Records. Without a hit single, a
video or orchestrated hype, DiFranco hs become one of the top concert
draws in the nation. Her grassroots following which has blossomed
mostly by word of mouth is based as much on her distinct vocal and
acoustic guitar style as it is on her completely charming stage
presence...check her out on the "Late Night with Conan O'Brien" show
(next) Wednesday."

I think Ani shows how music is getting more hard-edged, personal and
confrontational. If I were a women in the biz, I certainly wouldn't
ignore her. (Hope you aren't, Mary Chapin.)

Stella

[Maria Louise Kozi]

: Maria, there *must* be some mistake. Guy is very authoritative and quite

: infallible.
: Perhaps there is *another* Ani DiFranco making records...

: Dondi

Okay, now that was funny.... :-)

[Roger and Marie Braden]

In article <32879...@mothra.westworld.com>, Sincere Slayer <eir...@ptw.com>
wrote:

>Quote one socially or politically relevant Natalie Merchant song.

Almost the entire album of Blind Man's Zoo with her old group 10,000
Maniacs--it covers topics from Vietnam to religious fanaticism to foreign
policy to industrial pollution to teenage pregnancy, etc..

>> Newt-ites." She has done NOTHING to advance the cause of women or
>> minorities in country music.
>
>Who says she has to?
>
Here I agree. Lester Bangs once said that Rock and Roll (the attitude) is all
about "the Party", and most artists out at that time had forgotten that (this
was in the early 70s) which was why music really sucked at the time. I agree
with that--music is there for entertainment value FIRST--so what does it
matter if it isn't all gloom and doom and political?

[Ray Mikell]

>Natalie and Tracy have many songs just below these two pinnacles. As I
>said, MCC has been struck with the gift of a purely beautiful song once
>in her life. That song is "Something of a Dreamer" and beneath that
>there is very little of lasting quality in her work to date. I do

>believe that the failure of "A Place in the World" will wake her up to

>the need to take more risk, explore herself and her world deeper, and
>challenge herself to equal songs like "Dust Bowl" and "Fast Car" in
>quality. She has the talent and potential to do it.
>

>Stella

Tackling tough issues does not make one a great artist. I don't see why
this is even an "issue" here. Jeez.
Ray

[x]

In <570k0q$h...@news.kopower.com> mo...@kopower.com (Ray Mikell) writes:

>Tackling tough issues does not make one a great artist. I don't see
why this is even an "issue" here. Jeez.

Ray, it isn't the tackling of tough issues that makes for great art.
It's a song in which the lyrics and melody work together to create a
feeling more powerful and enduring than either alone. If you listen
closely to "Fast Car", "Dust Bowl" and "Something of a Dreamer" you see
that none of these songs are about issues. They are all about women's
lives, told with purity from the inside out. This is different from
songs which stand apart from people, observing them and preaching in at
them. All three of these songs could be beautiful novels.

In listening to Mary Chapin's newest album, the feeling I get is that
she is tired of writing. The inspiration is not coming to her and she
is straining, like a college student trying to write a term paper on
deadline. She likes singing, performing, working with other artists and
even some commercial aspects of the business. She is working and trying
hard, but is just frustrated at the task of writing new material when
nothing original is coming to her. She needs to settle back, stop
writing, and seek meaningful breakthroughs in her personal life. That's
how she will get her muse back.

Stella

[Dagfinn Sjo]

In article <56f5t8$m...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, guyg...@ix.netcom.com(x) says:
>
>In <19961114001...@ladder01.news.aol.com> bosto...@aol.com
>writes:
>
>I really dont know what matter it makes if she 's lesbian
she is a musician
and i dont understand people who cares about her sexual behaviour
ds
>

[Brian Kuhl]

No offense, but get a life.

x (guyg...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <19961114001...@ladder01.news.aol.com> bosto...@aol.com
: writes:

: >If MCC is playing softball, then what is Shania Twain playing?

: Twiddly winks.

--

Brian Kuhl
d039...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
sea...@juno.com

[bori...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 4:00:00 AM UTC-4, Melanie Rae Abbott wrote:
> Is calling someone gay the big thing in country music now? WHO
> CARES?!?!?! If they are, they are. If they're not, they're not.
> Can't a person be single in today's world? It seems like everytime
> some doesn't have a boy/girl friend they're automatically referred to
> as being gay. Personally, I don't care if any singer is gay or isn't.
> Their sexuality is not going to affect how the music affects me.
> Does anyone else feel the way I do?
>
> MA

NO

[devin...@att.net]

On Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-7, MASONEAGLE wrote:
> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
> have you ever seen her with any men? no
> all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
> at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
> SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harsh words??

[billray...@gmail.com]

My only issue with MCC is that she has never come out...which, sorry to say, when you are famous, there comes some social responsibility there, especially with this issue....I loved her stuff in the 90s, dropped serious dollar to see her live, she got obese, it was obvious to anyone with any gaydar that she was a lesbian, and yet she still won't come out...I do not respect her for that.

[jprat...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, MASONEAGLE wrote:
> Mary chapin has got to be a dike... I mean think about it
> have you ever seen her with any men? no
> all she will say in enterviews is that she is dating someone "special"
> at awards shows she NEVER has a date.
> SHE'S A FUCKIN' DIKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're an idiot..can't even spell dyke..

[fanderson....@gmail.com]

Okay, first of all it’s DYKE (you called her a hole in a wall that holds water back) and it would be an honor to have her in the Dyke Club.

[slr...@gmail.com]

Hey butthead, maybe you should do your research before running your uneducated mouth and spreading your bullshit. Just because she supports diverse musicians/artists doesn’t make her a lesbian, You stereotypical douchebag!