Cello in Old Time Music
Steve Parker
Hi,
I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
would it be more common today? Are there any more
recent examples that someone could learn from? The
reason why I ask, my wife played cello in school
orchestras and has been experimenting with fiddle
tunes on it lately. Would it be acceptable in jam
sessions, along with fiddles, etc? Comments appreciated.
--
____
@_____/ \
{::}============| []
Steve Parker \____/
scpa...@pacbell.net
Peter Schug
Steve Parker wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
> time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
> oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
> would it be more common today? Are there any more
> recent examples that someone could learn from? The
> reason why I ask, my wife played cello in school
> orchestras and has been experimenting with fiddle
> tunes on it lately. Would it be acceptable in jam
> sessions, along with fiddles, etc? Comments appreciated.
There's a guy in NYC who plays cajun 'cello in Grand Central Station.
His name is Sean Grissom and he really draws a crowd. Must be because he
sounds great. His 'cello is a skinny box with a normal looking neck that
he straps to his leg so he can play standing up. It's amplified, but the
volume is kept to normal levels.
A 'cello is just a big fiddle so why not! Whatever you do, some people
are gonna like it and some people are gonna criticize it.
Check out Appalachia Waltz with Mark O'Connor, Yo Yo Ma and Edgar Meyer.
For me the surprise is the fiddling Meyer does on the bass. That man
must have and arm of steel!
Pete
shel...@aol.com
1. The Weems String Band, an earlier-in-the-century band, had a great
sound largely because of the cello, which gave an unearthly speed-metal
base to the music.
This gave rise to:
2. Ace Weems & the Fat Meat Boys, with Michael Kott playing a cello
strapped to his body in guitar-position, the band which hooked me on all
of this old-time stuff when I was 16.
For more information about both of these, we should hear from Bruce
Molsky, who seems to be reading this group these days. (It was Bruce's
twin fiddles, as much as Michael's cello, that caused my formative teenage
experience). Bruce?
Dave Douglass
In article <32A1CE...@pacbell.net>, Steve Parker
<scpa...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Hi,
> I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
> time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
> oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
> would it be more common today? Are there any more
> recent examples that someone could learn from? The
> reason why I ask, my wife played cello in school
> orchestras and has been experimenting with fiddle
> tunes on it lately. Would it be acceptable in jam
> sessions, along with fiddles, etc? Comments appreciated.
> --
> ____
> @_____/ \
> {::}============| []
> Steve Parker \____/
> scpa...@pacbell.net
I have played at an old-timey jam or 2 with a friend playing cello and I
really liked the sound that she added to the group. Now, when I run into
her at jams she's playing her regular fiddle. When I asked her about the
cello, she said that it's kinda hard to play in the key of D on it so she
tends not to lug it along (I think D was the hard one...it does tend to
get used alot at OT jams). I just remember how fine it sounded and I
always hope she'll reconcider and bring it along to a jam.
Dave
Paul M. Gifford
>1. The Weems String Band, an earlier-in-the-century band, had a great
>sound largely because of the cello, which gave an unearthly speed-metal
>base to the music.
<snip>
Judging from various sources, including '20s recordings, old photos,
reminiscences, and memories, the cello was pretty common as an
instrument for old-time dance music, in many parts of the U.S. Sometimes
it was just called a "bass." I've got a homemade "bass," with a body
larger than standard size and a relatively shorter neck. This was made
about 1905-1910 around White Cloud, MI, by one Otto Gifford, who was
a shirt-tail (5th cousin) relation of mine. There used to be a guy in
Rogers City, MI, that played his father's cello. His had no tailpin. He
also played a lot of fiddle tunes on a button accordion.
Paul Gifford
Alan Garren
shel...@aol.com wrote:
> (It was Bruce's
>twin fiddles, as much as Michael's cello, that caused my formative teenage
>experience).
Come on, I'm sure we all agree that Bruce is a hell of a fine fiddler,
but two fiddles at once!!!
Alan Garren
Audrey Molsky
Alan Garren (gar...@teleport.com) wrote:
: shel...@aol.com wrote:
Well...I've never seen him play two at once, but I think Sam was
referring to an incident at the Horsepen's (?) festival many years ago.
It seems the promoter was quite upset when his favorite old-time band "Ace
Weems & His Fat Meat Boys" showed up for their annual appearance without
their twin fiddlers and with only Bruce as a substitute.
Sam will have to fill you in on the rest -- that was too many brain
cells ago for me!
So Sam, you were only 16 then? Was that the year Michael Cott
back-flipped off the stage to keep from falling -- and kept playing?
Rhys Jones
Steve Parker wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
> time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
> oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
> would it be more common today? Are there any more
> recent examples that someone could learn from? The
> reason why I ask, my wife played cello in school
> orchestras and has been experimenting with fiddle
> tunes on it lately.
I can think of several old recordings of string bands with cellos in
them (off-hand and perhaps most recently released are the cuts from
"Echoes of the Ozarks" vol. 1), however if you want a contemporary
player to look towards, you might try hunting down Dan Gellert. For the
last year or two I've seen him at Battleground with a cello, playing it
sometimes bowed, and other times as a plucked miny-bass.
> Would it be acceptable in jam
> sessions, along with fiddles, etc? Comments appreciated.
It certainly sounded good to me, and on the several occassions I played
fiddle with him on cello I had a great time. But then again I'm a
sucker for heavy rhythm and lower register tones, ala mando-cello.
Rhys Jones
Bruce Molsky
> For more information about both of these, we should hear from Bruce
> twin fiddles, as much as Michael's cello, that caused my formative teenage
It seems I that I might have contributed to the delinquency of a minor.
Sorry to have led you astray, Sam.
As far as cellos and oldtime string bands go, I don't know much beyond
the two bands you mentioned, though I'm sure there were more in the old
days (pre-1980). Dave Grant has a very small bass (1/2 size?) that he
was experimenting with. It sure looked like a cello to me when I saw
it...
Bruce
john burke
Well, Mark O'Connor's Appalachian Waltz is a great piece of music,
and YoYo and Edgar are awesome musicians. But it isn't "old-time"
music --- yet.
However, wait a few years and it may well be. Mark had us to the
Seattle concert last month and it was about as good as music gets.
Next to the Appalachian Waltz itself, the best of the night may have
been Star of the County Down where the cello and bass simultaneously
played the melody in different meters --- one in 2/4 and the other in
4/4. These guys are doing inspired things with music from traditional
sources. So, its not the instruments, but the musicians.
Another example of great (in my opinion, soon-to-be) "old-time" music
is the sazaaphone quartet that does Scandanavian material. Some like
Dalarna style fiddling, all incredibly beautiful. First sax I've
heard since the Bird that really took wing.
Sometimes the calibre of the players is able to transcend everything
--- instrument, genre, whatever --- and just produce beauty on a
wave, which is what music should be.
And hearing YoYo Ma refer in reverential tones to Benny Thomasson as
"Mark's mentor" was one of the great moments of my life.
Don't miss this folks. We are fortunate to live in times both
intersting and beautiful with folks whose talent and devotion to
music and beauty is as great as any time in history. This is the most
golden of golden ages.
JB
brit...@aol.com
Steve Parker wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
> time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
> oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
> would it be more common today?
Rhys Jones replied:
>>I can think of several old recordings of string bands with cellos in
>>them (off-hand and perhaps most recently released are the cuts from
>>"Echoes of the Ozarks" vol. 1)
Anyone ever heard of a "church-bass"? They were apparently a cross between
a small bass and a cello - and played sitting down I believe. (looked like
a cello with thyroid problem!)
A friend restored one several years ago.
They were used in the mid-1800's, in the New England area - obviously for
church services - but, I would assume they were also employed for local
dances and cotillions!
Of course, the tunes were probably called "New-time" music back then
though - don't know if they could be discussed in this newsgroup! :-)
Ed Britt
Brit...@aol.com
Bill Shull
It's always been my understanding that cello was an accepted
accompaniment instrument for fiddle tunes in Missouri. For an audio
example, listen to "Lazy Kate" on R.P. Christeson's "Old Time Fiddlers
Repertory" album which features piano and cello backup to Bob Walters'
fiddling.
The East Texas Serenaders ('20's string band, see County reissue
album) also had Henry Bogan on cello. This is the best example I can
suggest for traditional practice on the cello.
Bill Shull
David Lynch
> Steve Parker wrote:
> > I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
> > time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
> > oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
> > would it be more common today? Are there any more
> > recent examples that someone could learn from?
Steve, you may have run into my friend Rebecca at a jam or two - she
mostly plays cello in the Irish circles, but she has been trying to play
more in the old time jams, since that is her real love. I am always on the
lookout for examples of the cello in Old Time music to encourage her,
since there are not many sources.
She recently made a pilgrimage to visit Michael James Kott, who also
played with the Plank Road String Band in the late 70s. On one of their
LPs, Kott plays an amazing Indian Nation, with spot-on traditional bowing
patterns. Kott is alive and well and living in New Mexico - check out his
wild and wooly web pages if you get the chance.
As also mentioned in this thread, check out George Edgin's Corn Dodgers
featuring Brown Rich on cello on County CD 3506 - Echoes of the Ozarks vol
1. In the liner notes, Charles K. Wolve writes "A surprising number of
old-time string bands used a cello, both as a second to the fiddle and as
a sort of bass." I have also seen a cello played as a bass, with a long
broomstick replacing the pin to bring the instrument up to a standup
playing level.
There is also a nice picture book titled "Farmhouse Fiddlers", chocked
full of old photographs of musicians, and there is more than one instance
of a cello in the mix.
- David Lynch
dsl@ primenet.com
Check out the Old Time Music Home Page
http://www.primenet.com/~dsl/oldtime.html
"Hokum: It's there when you need it."
Steve Parker
I wrote (in part):
> I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
> time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
> oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
> would it be more common today? Are there any more
> recent examples that someone could learn from?
Thanks to everyone for the info and encouragement.
I've saved all the messages for re-reading
before my server sends them to cyber oblivion.
Cheers, Steve
____ __ ___
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{::}===============I [] Steve Parker {<] I =========[ ]
\____/ scpa...@pacbell.net \_(~ )__/ @@
_________________________
/----------------------\__\
Paul M. Gifford
>Anyone ever heard of a "church-bass"? They were apparently a cross between
>a small bass and a cello - and played sitting down I believe. (looked like
>a cello with thyroid problem!)
>A friend restored one several years ago.
>They were used in the mid-1800's, in the New England area - obviously for
>church services - but, I would assume they were also employed for local
>dances and cotillions!
Yes, Abraham Prescott in New Hampshire made quite a few (1810-1830 period,
I think), then went into melodeons after they came into being, for the choral
market. A friend of mine has one, but it needs restoration.
From research I've done in Michigan, it seems that most of the bass viol
players who played for church services and singing schools were very upright
citizens, but I know I've found at least a couple of references to such
players who also played at dances. One of the leading lights here in Flint,
MI, in the 1830-1850 period, was Manley Miles, who played the bass viol at
church.
The instruments and pictures I've seen seem to show that they were mainly
three-stringed bass viols. No doubt that the church influence, at least in
part, accounted for their presence in 19th-century dance bands. The
Metropolitan Museum in NY (I think) has a cello made in Maine in 1794, though,
so the church bass (which I think originated with Prescott) can't have started
the association.
Paul Gifford
secret muse
strings.
my buddy (raoul otis) used a prescott-era 3-string;very crude and big,
but fragile.it,too was found in new england(i think from joe peknik
at the met).or was it ex-selch collection?...still has me wondering,
though,(to the strain of 'babe')-are the three string cbs,basses and
"pocket basses" strictly from the northeast?there must be some readers
out there in dixie now who have run across at least one 3string,home-made
monstrosity... pvc
--
"The blues...ain't no cause for jumpin'.You go to jumpin',THAT ain't the
blues-
The blues is just by itself..." SON HOUSE
Phil Katz
> Steve Parker <scpa...@pacbell.net> writes:
> Hi,
> I know that the cello has sometimes been used in old
> time music--Nancy Blake, a couple of old ragtime
> oriented string bands,etc. If there were more musicians,
> would it be more common today? Are there any more
> reason why I ask, my wife played cello in school
> orchestras and has been experimenting with fiddle
> sessions, along with fiddles, etc? Comments appreciated.
Thomas Hardy (the same man as the author), included a cello. The passages in
the Thos Hardy books in re musicians, are largely embellishments upon autobiography;
those books refer to a cello being carried along and played at to the country dances.
Phil Katz
Paul M. Gifford
>> Paul Giffordi believe the east texas serenaders used a church bass-with all three
>strings.
>my buddy (raoul otis) used a prescott-era 3-string;very crude and big,
>but fragile.it,too was found in new england(i think from joe peknik
>at the met).or was it ex-selch collection?...still has me wondering,
>though,(to the strain of 'babe')-are the three string cbs,basses and
>"pocket basses" strictly from the northeast?there must be some readers
>out there in dixie now who have run across at least one 3string,home-made
>monstrosity... pvc
I didn't say I thought that the East Texas Serenaders used a church bass. As
pointed out on a similar thread a while back, they used a cello (to which we
might add Dr. Humphrey Bates's group from Nashville, Mellie Dunham's group
from Maine, and Judge Sturdy's orchestra, which recorded in St. Louis----were
there others who recorded in the '20s, besides George Edgins Corn Dodgers,
as mentioned in this thread?).
Secret Muse's question about three-stringers in the South is interesting,
though. The one that my friend has came with a homemade steel stand and an
old German-style bow. The finish on it is a faux wood stain/paint, which looks
American to me, probably c.1850 (this is from Michigan, so not the Northeast).
I'll bet that the survivability rate of these is pretty low.
Maybe it would be interesting to see if we can come up with any pre-1930
hillbilly or fiddle recordings with a bass. Are there any? It seems to
me that the 1930s-50s country-western bass ("hound dog bass") comes out
of the jazz or big band tradition, because they plucked it. Can anybody say
who first played the bass on radio or record with a hillbilly group?
Paul Gifford
Paul Mitchell
Surprised that noone has mentioned (or if they did, I missed it) Bob
Walters rendition of Old Melinda (he calls it Old Malindie) on the
Old Time Fiddlers Rep. LP's/cassettes put out by Christeson. He
introduces the (great) tune as being played by a "string trio" of fiddle,
electric guitar and bowed cello (I believe).
Along this line, there is the crackerjack photo on one of the early New
Lost City Ramblers Folkways albums which has a fellow in overalls playing
the fiddle, someone nattily dressed on steel guitar, a tenor banjo (if
memory serves me well), and a fellow in a suit playing a cello. WPA
photo, no doubt.
Paul Mitchell
==============================================================================
Paul Mitchell email: pa...@thing.oit.unc.edu
Office of Information Technology phone: (919) 962-5259
University of North Carolina
==============================================================================
brit...@aol.com
giff...@lib.flint.umich.edu (Paul M. Gifford)
responded to my question about "church basses" with:
>Yes, Abraham Prescott in New Hampshire made quite a few (1810-1830
period,
>I think), then went into melodeons after they came into being, for the
choral
>market.
Thanks for supplying the name! It was indeed a Prescott that my elderly
friend worked on. And I also remember reading something about the
church-bass originating with him.
Ed Britt
Brit...@aol.com
secret muse
well,lessee...the big weems sound(the biggest!)comes partly from
cello AND bass (and would have included uilean pipes,according to the
interview i heard from richard nevins in the 60s when he visited near
pope,tenn.the set of pipes burned in a fire two weeks before the columbia
date!)...there's also the big stoneman group-you've seen the picture-
the bass player sports exactly one-half a beard on one side of his face;
sort of a cross between ben turpin,kennedy the cop,and craig johnson.
taylor-griggs melody makers,one of the few straight louisiana string
bands,featured lovely,rich bowed bass on their 20s victors.dallas
string band...proximity string quartette...george edgin...bate's...
all good 20s candidates.
(whoops-7 foot dilly-sorry kerry.i keep forgetting them out of envy.
figure that out...)and on and on.frenchy's string band?
but hound-doggin' is another story.i'll vote a circa 1930 "Shadrack"
by Bob Miller's group(fine,though jazzy,and WEIRD)...outside of texas
swing,might not have been plucked 'til the days of jimmy murphy or
ellis&bill...but that's just a guess.the unsung hero who put down his
bow,first,is a tantalizing idea,though. -pvc
Paul J. Stamler
Cello is still used in at least one traditional rural string band in
Missouri; the small band that plays for the community dances in Augusta
has used cello as the low instrument for a very long time. Their
repertoire is mostly schottisches, waltzes and polkas rather than
hoedown-type fiddle tunes, but they fit into a niche of old-time music
naytheless. (BTW, some of the dances done to their tunes seem to be
indigenous to that particular town. No one knows of their being danced
elsewhere.)
Peace.
Paul
Paul M. Gifford
Just wanted to modify some things I said earlier on this thread. Dr. Humphrey
Bates and his Possum Hunters used a three-string bass viol (with a "German"
bow), not a cello, according to the photo in Charles Wolfe's "Tennessee
Strings." Also, the 1794 Maine cello is not in the Metropolitan Museum
collection. I forget where, but a picture of it is in *Music in
Massachusetts*, Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society, 1985.
I'll still reiterate the question: what old-time recordings from the 1920s
had a bass (not cello) in them? Obviously the Bates records must have.
Another question might be whether Southern churches used them at all in the
period before organs and melodeons came into use.
Paul Gifford
Paul M. Gifford
In article <58gn2c$1...@crl5.crl.com> psta...@crl.com (Paul J. Stamler) writes:
>From: psta...@crl.com (Paul J. Stamler)
>Subject: Re: Cello in Old Time Music
>Date: 9 Dec 1996 01:44:44 -0800
I wonder if the player holds the bow "German"-style (as opposed to the
"French") style. I looked at the pictures of the Wisconsin cello players
in *Farmhouse Fiddlers* as well as in other sources, and also was thinking of
this one cello player from Rogers City, MI, and most of them held the bow this
way. Since this is not the standard cello bowing technique, I find this kind
of interesting.
What are the unique dances done there?
Paul Gifford
jim...@sover.net
William C. Mutch
. But it isn't "old-time"
> music --- yet.
>
but what a stunning lady she was...and we still have her reel) Lancashire
Coutry Orchestra. 22 fiddles, two viola's a chello and clarinet...regards
Gloux
Snow Hill has a cut on Ray Alden's Young Fogies II with Gordon Arnold on
cello. The tune is Black & White Rag and he plucks it like a bass. He
also plays old-time banjo, so sometimes he gets confused and frails the
cello (!). On slower pieces like waltzes, he bows it...he's not on this
newsgroup, but his e-mail address is g...@ssw.com, if you'd like to
correspond with him...
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the East Texas Serenaders are a great
example of using the cello, although in their case, I seem to recall it
was a 3-stringed cello...
We're always trying to figure out new ways to apply the cello...
If there are more early recordings squirrelled away down south, I know
we'll be very interested in hearing them if they are ever made
available...
-Greg Loux
Bill Richardson
A friend of mine bought a cello and plans to use it for playing old-time
music. He says the standard cello tuning is not well suited for playing
bass in the standard keys. Are there any alternative tunings that he
could use on this cello that would make it easier to play?
Apparently the cello is tuned in 5ths, like a violin or viola, while a
bass is tuned in 4ths. I thought the solution would be to tune the cello
in 4ths.
thanks,
---
Bill Richardson
Blacksburg, Va