Elzic's Farewell
David Guertin
Hi folks,
I've been doing my best to wear out my Freight Hoppers CD, the one
with Elzik's (sic) Farewell on it. It's a great tune, and they really
burn it up (as if that needed saying -- this is the Freight Hoppers
after all :-).
I'm gonna sit down and learn this tune, but I'm wondering something.
Given a choice, I much prefer learning a tune by ear than off the printed
page. But the Hoppers' rendition of Elzic's Farewell doesn't match a
single one of the seven(!) printed versions I have. They naturally don't
all agree either, but a lot of them are at least close, while a lot of
the Hoppers' version looks completely different, even when I juggle the
A, B, and C parts around.
So, my question is, if I sit down and learn Elzic's Farewell a la the
Freight Hoppers, am I gonna be completely out in the cold when I get
together and jam with other folks who play this one? Am I better off
just pulling it out of a book? Or better yet, what are some other
good recordings of Elzic's Farewell I should listen to?
Cheers,
--
Dave Guertin
Remove 'nospam' from my address to reply.
Dmarts
Sounds to me like the French Carpenter/Wilson Douglas/Doc White which is
the version you hear mostly, seems like they're takin some "liberties" with
the two lower parts. Check the original versions if you can.
dm
Gail Gillespie
David Guertin (gue...@nospam.middlebury.edu) wrote:
: I'm gonna sit down and learn this tune, but I'm wondering something.
: Given a choice, I much prefer learning a tune by ear than off the printed
: page. But the Hoppers' rendition of Elzic's Farewell doesn't match a
: single one of the seven(!) printed versions I have. They naturally don't
: all agree either, but a lot of them are at least close, while a lot of
: the Hoppers' version looks completely different, even when I juggle the
: A, B, and C parts around.
: So, my question is, if I sit down and learn Elzic's Farewell a la the
: Freight Hoppers, am I gonna be completely out in the cold when I get
: together and jam with other folks who play this one? Am I better off
: just pulling it out of a book? Or better yet, what are some other
: good recordings of Elzic's Farewell I should listen to?
Don't get me wrong...I love the Freighthoppers, however, their version of
Elzic's Farewell bears little resemblence to what I regard as the
"definitive" version by French Carpenter. On the other hand, I believe the
recording of French (the one with Jenes Cottrell playing banjo on
alternate cuts) is long out of print. Wilson Douglas also plays the
tune, or used to play a fine version of it, learned from the
Carpenter family. It's on his Rounder recording "The Right Hand Fork
of Rush's Creek," which I believe may have been reissued. My guess
is that any printed versions of this (GAHHH...the thought of writing
out Elzic's Farewell makes me cringe!) will be from these older
recordings and won't sound like the version you are trying to learn
which is much faster with chord changes from the band that make it
into a much different tune. An exciting, compelling tune, to be sure, but
one that I had to be TOLD was Elzic's Farewell!
-Gail
Dave Douglass
In article <x6iyb4v...@caddis.middlebury.edu>, David Guertin
<gue...@nospam.middlebury.edu> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I've been doing my best to wear out my Freight Hoppers CD, the one
> with Elzik's (sic) Farewell on it. It's a great tune, and they really
> burn it up (as if that needed saying -- this is the Freight Hoppers
> after all :-).
>
> I'm gonna sit down and learn this tune, but I'm wondering something.
> Given a choice, I much prefer learning a tune by ear than off the printed
> page. But the Hoppers' rendition of Elzic's Farewell doesn't match a
> single one of the seven(!) printed versions I have. They naturally don't
> all agree either, but a lot of them are at least close, while a lot of
> the Hoppers' version looks completely different, even when I juggle the
> A, B, and C parts around.
>
> So, my question is, if I sit down and learn Elzic's Farewell a la the
> Freight Hoppers, am I gonna be completely out in the cold when I get
> together and jam with other folks who play this one? Am I better off
> just pulling it out of a book? Or better yet, what are some other
> good recordings of Elzic's Farewell I should listen to?
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Dave Guertin
> Remove 'nospam' from my address to reply.
I've heard a real nice version by Tommy Thompson. Just can't tell you
what record tho.
Dave
pa...@thing.oit.unc.edu
On 18 Sep 1997, Gail Gillespie wrote:
> Carpenter family. It's on his Rounder recording "The Right Hand Fork
> of Rush's Creek," which I believe may have been reissued. My guess
> is that any printed versions of this (GAHHH...the thought of writing
> out Elzic's Farewell makes me cringe!) will be from these older
> recordings and won't sound like the version you are trying to learn
> which is much faster with chord changes from the band that make it
> into a much different tune. An exciting, compelling tune, to be sure, but
> one that I had to be TOLD was Elzic's Farewell!
Along this line, maybe someone can explain to just where the extra parts
to this tune came from? French plays two parts, as does Wilson Douglas.
I haven't worked through the notes from Krassen's Book, but on the little
sound card that came with it, it seems that Doc White has a somewhat
different take, (though I cannot remember if he adds extra parts or not).
That shift up to the IV (D) chord sounds like a new addition.
Paul
==============================================================================
Paul Mitchell email: pa...@thing.oit.unc.edu
Academic Technology and Networks phone: (919) 962-5259
University of North Carolina
==============================================================================
Bryon Conville
Bryon Conville wrote:
> If anyone knows the exact chord changes to this version, please
> post them because I'm 100% sure about my chord changes I've worked out
> especially the C part.
Of course I meant to say I'm NOT 100% sure about the chord changes I
worked out.
Bryon Conville
Bryon Conville
David Guertin wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I've been doing my best to wear out my Freight Hoppers CD, the one
> with Elzik's (sic) Farewell on it. It's a great tune, and they really
> burn it up (as if that needed saying -- this is the Freight Hoppers
> after all :-).
> single one of the seven(!) printed versions I have.
> Freight Hoppers, am I gonna be completely out in the cold when I get
> together and jam with other folks who play this one? Am I better off
> just pulling it out of a book? Or better yet, what are some other
> good recordings of Elzic's Farewell I should listen to?
I've got that Freight Hoppers disc as well, and while I like their
Elzic's, it doesn't bear much of a resemblance to any that I've heard.
If you want to hear a really neat version of it, check out Norman
Blake's arrangement on "The Norman and Nancy Blake Compact Disc" on
Rounder Records. Great disc: Hello Stranger, If I lose, Marquis of
Huntley, Jordan am a Hard Road To Travel, Elzic's Farewell and more. I
figured out Elzic's Farewell pretty much the way Norman does it, but I'm
still not sure on a couple of spots, especially the C section. But boy
is it crooked. The A section is 2/4 and the rest is 4/4 or some such.
I've never seen a printed version, but Norman's version sure is fun to
play. If anyone knows the exact chord changes to this version, please
post them because I'm 100% sure about my chord changes I've worked out
especially the C part.
Cheers,
Bryon Conville
Kerry Blech
Gail Gillespie wrote:
>
> David Guertin (gue...@nospam.middlebury.edu) wrote:
>
[snip]
As I first heard "Elzic's Farewell" (note, I think I recall that Gerry
Milnes said that it probably was originally called something like
"Elswick's Farewell"), it was a solo fiddle tune. Solo fiddling,
especially in parts of West Virginia, is a stunningly beautiful form,
but an endangered form. Any attempt to place such a piece into a band
setting would radically alter the fragile, original beauty of such
music. I have not seen any written versions this tune (and I echo Gail's
shudder when even contemplating it), but I would imagine that a
transcription most likely tried to document one of the early solo
versions. So even if French Carpenter were to record it with a band
today (providing he were still alive and able and willing to play), it
would not sound much like his solo setting, in my opinion. Having
arbitrary chords imposed on it and having to compromise relatively free
meter in order to have an entire band move along the tune's contours at
the same time must, by definition, burnish some of the charming rough
edges from such a gem. This is not to say that such a fantasy rendition
would not also be beautiful, but it would not closely resemble the other
setting.
An example can be found in the Archive of Folk Song collection made in
1941 of Emmett Lundy (unfortunately the String LP issue of these
recordings does not reflect this). Lundy played a few tunes both as
fiddle solos and also with his sons on guitar and banjo. I have not done
a note-by-note analysis, but they nearly sound like different pieces.
"Julie Ann Johnson," for instance, has been publicly issued as the
fiddle solo. A gorgeous number. It has been "covered" by many bands from
the "old time music revival." Nearly all of these revivalist bands
insert a IV-chord at the start of the coarse part (the tune is in the
key of D and they use a G at that point), where the melody may imply
this chordal activity. Had the Lundy band version been issued instead of
the solo rendition, this may not have come to pass, for Emmett's
accompanists remain on the tonic (and probably imbibed some). So QED,
even in its subtlest forms, merely accompanying a solo fiddle tune most
likely will alter it.
I doubt if any of this addresses the original query, but I felt it an
opportune time to discuss this issue.
I've heard the Freight Hoppers version of "Elzic's" maybe once, but I
don't really recall what they did with/to it or how far it "strays" from
any of the older recordings.
As far as what people are doing in a jam session, that all depends on
who they are listening to. If they all have that French Carpenter record
at home ( as I do),that's the version they would play, or if they hang
out with Bert Levy, they may play his interpretation of it, or if they
are fans of the 'Hoppers, they probably would play that version. Lots of
people in the Northwest (West Coast in general, I think), depending on
when they learned it, might play Judy Hyman's setting (she's of the
Horse Flies; this was the inspiration for Ray Bierl's influential
recording of it as well; and there's a story in that passage too), or
some may have learned it earlier from Armin Barnett, who got his from
Carpenter. Then of course, once it gets into our personal nervous
systems, unless you are oblivious to other input, it gets altered,
sometimes imperceptively, sometimes radically. I've heard that called
"The Folk Process" (fanfares and drum rolls).
So ..... I don't know.
Muddying the Waters again,
Sincerely
Kerry
--
Blec...@WolfeNet.com
"When you get above the clouds, you can do just as you choose."
- The Rector Trio, Asheville, NC 1930
pa...@thing.oit.unc.edu
Looks like Joe Thompson (and Friends) will be playing a free concert at
the Alexander Dickson House, 150 E. King St. in Hillsborough Saturday
night. The show begins at 6:30 PM, (which goes to figure, since we'll be
south of Siler City playing a pre-wedding party - this happens everytime
he plays in town).
Check out Historic Hillsborough and catch some great Piedmont oldtime
string band music.
Dmarts
yeah, Doc White adds a quick 4 chord on the low part, plus he adds a
generic Doc white 3rd part which he does in a lot of his tunes. I think he
pretty much forgot how some tunes went and jumbled together phrases a lot
of the time. Jimmy Triplett told me that wilson Douglas complained that Doc
White only knew two tunes! Seems like all of em, including Frieghthoppers,
play the high part more or less the same.
dave
Cleoma
I like Sandy Stark's version of it on the Primitive Characters CD a lot.
To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, "You can't please all of the people all of the
time", especially when it comes to putting unaccompanied modal fiddle tunes
into a band setting. This is when it is perhaps a good time to just play
to please yourself, and live in the moment.
Suzy Thompson
Betty & Billy Cornette
Of those older folks still playing, Wilson Douglas hands-down has the
definitive version. He most recently recorded it on "Common Ground",
with Kim Johnson on banjo and Mark Payne on guitar. This was a
self-produced tape, done in 1993, and likely still available from him
personally, and perhaps at West Virginia outlets.
Wilson accredits it to French Carpenter, but without digging my French
version out, I can't say how close he stays to it. But I do know that he
likes to put an extra draw at the beginning of the low part, which no
matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to count it in there, unless
I'm playing it along with him. Therefore I get an annual "Elzic's"
lesson from Wilson each June at Glenville.
As Kerry says, it IS one of those lovely, and spooky 'listening' tunes,
as I like to call them, and doesn't need a band. Though Kim & Mark do a
great and subtle job of underpinning it for him on "Common Ground".
I suspect (and I mean no disrespect to the Freighthoppers) that I could
extend a direct quote from Wilson to apply to the three-part + D chord
version: "That there's a chicken-shit Elzic's!" (said to me & Dave Bing
when we failed to put in Wilson's extra draw in a hell-bent-for-leather
jam). He's also been known to say, "There ain't no F in Elzic's!!", when
told of yet another innovative 'moderen' twist.
As you might guess, Elzic's is a pit-of-my-heart favorite, has been for
20 years. So, as much as I get a kick out of what's been done to it
since, I'd prefer if someone just gave it a new name, and left the old
one to stand on its own.
Wilson's tune-learning philosophy may well apply here. Learn the
'originals' first, get it under your skin. THEN you can make it your
own.
Happy listening!!
-Betty Vornbrock
Richard Crew
David Guertin <gue...@nospam.middlebury.edu> wrote:
:
: So, my question is, if I sit down and learn Elzic's Farewell a la the
: Freight Hoppers, am I gonna be completely out in the cold when I get
: together and jam with other folks who play this one? Am I better off
: just pulling it out of a book? Or better yet, what are some other
: good recordings of Elzic's Farewell I should listen to?
My experience is that it's usually worth while to learn someone's version
of a tune, if you *really* like the way that they play that tune. And if
this happens to be slightly different from the way that everyone else plays
it, then all the better. This is why old-time music is so wonderful. I don't
think you'll be "completely out in the cold"; if you get any notion of the
tune from the Freight Hoppers' rendition, then you'll be able to pick it
up at a jam.
I learned a wonderful version of this tune some years ago from Wilson
Douglas -- 2 part, crooked (as is practically anything he plays), and the
high part is in A mixolydian, with C sharp in place of a C natural.
My favorite performance of Elswick's farewell was by Critton Hollow String
Band -- their version was fairly standard, but they played a D chord when
the tune hits the high A. Quite pretty. Not, alas, recorded.
--Rich
--
###########################################################################
#
# IF YOU PUT ANYTHING HERE IT WILL GO AWAY
#
Kerry Blech
pa...@thing.oit.unc.edu wrote:
>
> Looks like Joe Thompson (and Friends) will be playing a free concert at
> the Alexander Dickson House, 150 E. King St. in Hillsborough Saturday
> night. The show begins at 6:30 PM, (which goes to figure, since we'll be
> south of Siler City playing a pre-wedding party - this happens everytime
> he plays in town).
Could someone please pass on my greetings to Joe?
Thanks
Maxine G
In article <342184...@WolfeNet.com>, Kerry....@boeing.com wrote:
>As I first heard "Elzic's Farewell" (note, I think I recall that Gerry
>Milnes said that it probably was originally called something like
>"Elswick's Farewell")
Just an anecdote - several years ago Brendan and I were driving through Clay
County, WV, and saw a sign for "Elswick's Lumbermill". Gerry Milnes confirmed
that it's the same Elswick family.
*********************************************************
return address changed to prevent spamming
Remove the word "remove" from the return address
Maxine Gerber
PCG Systems
*********************************************************
Gloux
>> Muddying the Waters again,
>> Sincerely
>> Kerry
I'd say it's more like Kerrying the Waters again. Great insights, but we
don't all have access to the incredible floatilla of tremendous experiences
that you have had that you're basing your opinion. Needless to say, I'm
jealous...
This thread has touched me in a way that has me thinking thoughts
like...this is why I play old time music...Thank you very much...
Nancy Mamlin
Maxine G <m...@pcg.remove.net> wrote in article
<5vugu1$6...@examiner.concentric.net>...
>
> In article <342184...@WolfeNet.com>, Kerry....@boeing.com wrote:
>
> >As I first heard "Elzic's Farewell" (note, I think I recall that Gerry
> >Milnes said that it probably was originally called something like
> >"Elswick's Farewell")
>
> Just an anecdote - several years ago Brendan and I were driving through
Clay
> County, WV, and saw a sign for "Elswick's Lumbermill". Gerry Milnes
confirmed
> that it's the same Elswick family.
So was Elswick, or his lumber mill, there? Or was the Farewell for when he
left the area?
Or did he come back?
Nancy
--
******
Nancy Mamlin
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
******
David Guertin
>>>>> "Nancy" == Nancy Mamlin <maml...@appstate.edu> writes:
Nancy> Maxine G <m...@pcg.remove.net> wrote in article
>>
> Just an anecdote - several years ago Brendan and I were driving
> through Clay County, WV, and saw a sign for "Elswick's
> Lumbermill". Gerry Milnes confirmed that it's the same Elswick
> family.
Nancy> So was Elswick, or his lumber mill, there? Or was the
Nancy> Farewell for when he left the area?
Nancy> Or did he come back?
From the liner notes to the Freight Hoppers' CD "Where'd you come
from, where's you go?:"
"Elzik's Farewell: Written by Harvey Elswick of Kanawha County, West
Virginia, in 1889. He played the tunes as his mother's last request
from her death bed."
So it would seem that the farewell was to his mother rather than to
the place.
Patrick Cullie
gloux wrote
>I'd say it's more like Kerrying the Waters again. Great insights, but >we don't all have access to the incredible floatilla of tremendous >experiences that you have had that you're basing your opinion. >Needless to say, I'm jealous...
Amen to Gloux's comments. Sometimes, when I am unfortunately in a hurry,
I go through the newsgroup and just read Kerry's comments. I know I
will always learn something. It doesn't muddy the waters Kerry, it
clears them up.
Patrick
Paul Tyler
Kerry Blech wrote:
[snip]
> An example can be found in the Archive of Folk Song collection made in
> 1941 of Emmett Lundy (unfortunately the String LP issue of these
> recordings does not reflect this). Lundy played a few tunes both as
> fiddle solos and also with his sons on guitar and banjo. I have not done
> a note-by-note analysis, but they nearly sound like different pieces.
> "Julie Ann Johnson," for instance, has been publicly issued as the
> fiddle solo. A gorgeous number. It has been "covered" by many bands from
> the "old time music revival." Nearly all of these revivalist bands
> insert a IV-chord at the start of the coarse part (the tune is in the
> key of D and they use a G at that point), where the melody may imply
> this chordal activity. Had the Lundy band version been issued instead of
> the solo rendition, this may not have come to pass, for Emmett's
> accompanists remain on the tonic (and probably imbibed some).
Ah. It's been a long wait, but finally I get some justification for
staying on the tonic. Though I later sub-dominated myself to the
prevailing winds of string band fashion.
Thanks Kerry.
Paul Tyler
Betty & Billy Cornette
I had also heard, and I think this is the story Wilson tells, that one
Elzic, a young boy/man, was leaving home to fight in the war Betwixt the
States.
And that he didn't return.
Making it a pretty durn sad tune.
-Betty
Kerry Blech
Gawrsh, everyone, thanks fer the nice words. <shuffle feet>.
As for the tonic, a lot depends on what you consider "tonic." If it's
something to jump start oneself, a "bracer" (as TJ used to say, an "eye
opener"), then I'm all for it, but if it's that drink diluter, avoid it
at all costs (I am allergic to quinine, m'self). Good straight gin is
fine. Did someone say there was a musical term called that too?
Bo Bradham
Kerry Blech <Kerry....@boeing.com> wrote:
>Gawrsh, everyone, thanks fer the nice words. <shuffle feet>.
>
>As for the tonic, a lot depends on what you consider "tonic." If it's
>something to jump start oneself, a "bracer" (as TJ used to say, an "eye
>opener"), then I'm all for it, but if it's that drink diluter, avoid it
>at all costs (I am allergic to quinine, m'self). Good straight gin is
>fine.
Just make sure there's someone who's been off the tonic that can
drive you home. A minor relative, perhaps.
All seriousness aside Kerry's insightful article underscores how
important it is to be a little bit literate when you go to learn a
tune. You don't want to make the wrong mistakes.
For some reason it reminds me of a remark I saw in an article in
The Old Time Herald about a guy name Mel Durham (the article is at
http://www.mindspring.com/~oth/mel.htm). He's talking about a fiddle
contest his father won back in the 1920's. He said "They judged you by
how well you understood the tune."
And _that_ reminds me of the Tommy Jarrell quote "He knows a
thousand tunes and can't play a one of 'em."
Bo Bradham
--
"If it's their mistake, tough. If it's our mistake we negotiate."
- Overheard
Neil Rossi
Careful. Too much of that tonic will lead to a bad case of the G-runs.
Then I'd want to be upwind of the prevailing winds. <g>
Paul Tyler <pty...@wwa.com> wrote:
>[snip]
Kerry Blech
avoid the G chord altogether in this tune.
On the other hand (and I will not use Julie's .sig here), a good
mnemonic device for recalling that infamous bluegrass G-run is:
"Let's play the Lester Flatt lick."
Of course it also works off the C chord. And in bluegrass, that means
off any chord, 'cuz ya'd just capo (or use the "cheater" as my uncle
useta say) to play a C or G position in any key.
Regards,
Kerry
John Mahony
Needn't be considered a sad tune...maybe he was an asshole.