I'd have to say that instances of bawdy bluegrass lyrics don't come readily to
mind, nor do bluegrass versions of older bawdy songs...unless they've been
"cleaned up" to some degree. Just as an off-the-wall theory, it
might be reasonable to surmise that bluegrass, despite its cultural roots and
its current popularity as "jam" music, has always been performance-oriented
toward audiences who would find bawdiness not only inappropriate, but
downright offensive. Bluegrass, in fact, is heavily influenced in the opposite
direction by gospel and sacred music to a degree found in very few other types
of music. As with much of American culture, bluegrass and C&W revel in themes
of murder, robbery and adultery, but when it comes to actual sexual themes
(most songs of adultery deal with consequences rather that actual sex), that's
taboo. Old time music, on the other hand, being less performance-driven and
more geared toward "let's sit down and play a few tunes" is probably more
accepting of bawdier tunes...especially when it's an all-male jam.
DISCLAIMER: The above is off the top of my head, probably full of holes...take
your best shot, I'd be interested to hear other opinions.
********************************************************************************
John Lupton, SAS Comm & Network Svcs, University of Pennsylvania
"Rural Free Delivery", WVUD-FM 91.3, Newark, Delaware
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/rfd.html
Brandywine Friends of Old Time Music
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/bfotm.html
********************************************************************************
The University of Pennsylvania: a bar with a $25,000 cover charge...
Old-time music is filled with it. Consider "Cripple Creek," which
is rarely sung in bluegrass circles. "Girls from Cripple Creek,
about half grown. Jump on a man like a dog on a bone." "Old Joe
Clark" certainly has bawdy lyrics. Some tunes have lines about
"two old maids sitting in the sand, each one wishing the other
was a man." Might be a good argument whether "Juneapple" is
bawdy or masochistic: "Wish I was a Juneapple hanging on a tree.
Every time my true love passed she'd take a bite of me." There's
another verse of Cripple Creek that's even more explicit, more
like blues references: "I've got a girl and she loves me. She's
as sweet as sweet can be. She's got eyes of baby blue. Makes my
gun shoot straight and true." If you think the singer is shooting
at varmints, then you need to listen to songs like "I'm an old
bumblebee, got a stinger 'bout as long as my arm" or the classic
"Let me squeeze your lemon," both from the country blues
tradition. We could probably spend a lot of time discussing
the sexual behavior of various girls called Sal, Sally Ann, etc.
(What did Sal do with that meatskin anyway and why did she keep
it hid away?) Kinney Rohrer speaks about (but doesn't sing) a
song for which Charlie Poole allegedly wrote something like
40 bawdy verses. The reputation of old-time musicians for
drinking, carousing, and chasing after women (don't hear too
much about the women chasing after men) was certainly deserved,
and it's no surprise that it's reflected in the music.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Steve Goldfield :-{ {-: s...@coe.berkeley.edu
University of California at Berkeley Richmond Field Station
Randolph complained that the excision of this kind of material from the
published collections gives people a false image of mountain people, as
childlike and unworldly. Those cute collections of Appalachian humor and
folklore have the same effect. The real earthiness of the culture is denied.
Vance Randolph's collection is entitled _Blow the candle out: "unprintable"
Ozark folksongs and folklore_ (University of Arkansas Press, 1992).
Toby Koosman
Knoxville, Tennessee USA
tkoo...@utkux.utk.edu
http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman/
While bawdy songs may be rare in BG, a band I was in did record a 45 single
remake of the Sons of the Pioneer's version of "The Strawberry Roan" b/w
"The It Won't Hurt No More" on the Hen Cackle label.
It was a hit in selected circles.
_peter
----------------------------------------------------------
Peter Feldmann * Hen Cackle Records
P.O. Box 902 * Santa Barbara CA 93102
----------------------------------------------------------
>It was a hit in selected circles.
>_peter
Peter,
Could you be more, er, explicit?
*** Knowing prevents learning ***
Around 1964 or so I found myself on a chartered bus full of local men
travelling from a small town in Cumberland, in the north of England, to a
football game in a large city about four hours away. The first half of
the trip proceeded pleasantly enough, but after the game the bus stopped
at a couple of pubs. Thus fortified, the locals whiled away the remaining
hours of the journey singing what seemed like an endless number of
remarkably obscene and hilarious songs. My uncle, the local catholic
priest, was unable to provide any scholarly insight into this phenomenon.
>Dear newsgroup folks! In the course of my work on the "civic rhetoric of
>folk song" I have run into an interesting question. What place do truly
>bawdy songs (not songs of dalliance) actually have in the community of
>those interested in traditional or old-time American folk song? Some
>festivals in Calif., I'm told, have workshops on bawdy songs. Others seem
>not to.
Well, 20 years ago I used to play a lot with a fiddler, Bill Bigford, of
Portland, MI, who, through a contact on one of the other Usenet boards, Dick
Cray, author of "The Erotic Muse," said was truly amazing in his knowledge of
so many dirty songs. And, in the '70s, we used to have impromptu "bawdy song
workshops" out in the parking lot, usually involving a handful of people and a
pint of whisky on the sly.
One time I played at a festival in the Upper Peninsula and at an "unusual
instruments" workshop was put on stage with Mike Seeger. I sang Bill
Bigford's version of the "Crab Song," and another one, and I don't think Mike
thought it was very tasteful. That was my only experience with a formal
"workshop" situation, although, as I say, I've participated in many such
informal workshops. Always good for a laugh, at least with the
smoking-and-drinking crowd.
A lot of these songs (at least the ones the old-timers in Michigan know) are
sung to the tune of "Turkey in the Straw," "Irish Washerwoman," "Miss
MacLeod's Reel," "Rosin the Beau," "Gilderoy," "Girl I Left Behind," etc., and
a lot of the old-time fiddlers knew at least one. Bill Bigford knew at least
40, not counting dirty jokes. Dick Cray has convinced me to donate my tapes
of him and others to the Library of Congress, which I will do at some point.
Of course, I've long since learned them, and, in the right situation, will
spew them out in exchange for a cheap laugh.
Yes, they're sexist, vulgar, crude, etc., but, heck, they're part of our
heritage and (at least for the ones I know) mostly never published, so why not
keep 'em going?
Paul Giford
Steve,
Your examples are well-chosen, and incisive. Certainly old-time
music is full of bawdy lyrics, even if bluegrass isn't. You speculate
whether there are any bawdy songs which have been performed as
bluegrass tunes after being cleaned up. "Redwing" comes to mind;
this is often performed as a bluegrass instrumental.
...
>40 bawdy verses. The reputation of old-time musicians for
>drinking, carousing, and chasing after women (don't hear too
>much about the women chasing after men) was certainly deserved,
>and it's no surprise that it's reflected in the music.
One more comment. Bluegrass musicians have the same reputation,
even though they don't sing bawdy lyrics, so these things
don't necessarily correlate.
-P.
--
******** When somebody says, "It's a matter of principle,"... ********
*Peter S. Shenkin, Box 768 Havemeyer Hall, Chemistry, Columbia Univ.,*
*NY, NY 10027; she...@columbia.edu; (212)854-5143; FAX: 678-9039*
************ ...it's a sure sign he wants the whole pie. *************
>While bawdy songs may be rare in BG, a band I was in did record a 45 single
>remake of the Sons of the Pioneer's version of "The Strawberry Roan" b/w
>"The It Won't Hurt No More" on the Hen Cackle label.
"Then it won't hurt no more" was on the NLCR "Earth Is Earth" album.
What is the origin of this song?
I _could_, but won't. :-)
I may have a copy or two in a box somewhere if you're interested.
_peter
----------------------------------------------------------
Peter Feldmann * IC Consultants
>Any chance of sharing these gems with us on the net that are interested??
I only have a minute, so here goes:
(to Irish Washerwoman):
There lived an old lady way down in Dundee
And out of her asshole there grew a plum tree
It grew so high you couldn't see the top
You tickle her much and you see the plums drop.
Or another (to Rosin the Bow)
I fucked an old lady, God damn her
God damn her old soul, she was dead
The maggots fell out of her asshole
The crabs was all off of her head.
Or this one (to Girl I Left Behind Me)
Oh, I stuck my nose in a billy goat's ass
And the stink was enough to bind me
So I took my prick for a walking stick
And I led it right behind me.
Gotta go...maybe some others know some others?
Paul Gifford
Old-time music's social role generally tended to mitigate against bawdy
material - indirect, metaphorical, etc. is what you mostly see. Really
dirty songs are likely to be unaccompanied, used in male-only social settings.
In Europe the prevalence of ecclesiastical folk song collectors led to the loss
of a large body of otherwise interesting material that no one would perform
for the minister. Notable in old-time are Little Ball of Yarn ("gazed up in
my face, wrapped both legs around my waist...") from Arkansas ultimately,
and the reliably frank Uncle Dave Macon ("Love my own daughter but it
ain't no use..."), who had fewer compunctions than most about his material
(political, too - cf. his song in favor of Al Smith's candidacy). Of course
there must have been interaction with Black music, where Blues lyrics were
always much stronger than the white musicians' material. A floating verse
that seems to me clearly to have been cleaned up is the standard "Jump
back, jump back, daddy shot a bear, shot him throught the keyhole, never
touched a hair". Try "shot him through the asshole" and see if it doesn't
sound better....
>What scratchy old record is this from? I have never heard this version at all.
These words are similar to some verses in "Bang Away, My Lulu":
>>
>> I wish I was a diamong ring
>> Upon my Lulu's hand
>> Every time she took a leak
>> I'd see her promised land
I learned this one from Bill Bigford, who I mentioned in another post.
There's a special tune for it. Another version is in "The Erotic Muse." One
time I heard a group of teenage boys singing another version.
Paul Gifford
Thanks. Has this been reissued?
>BTW - Your mention of "Redwing" as an example of a BG song that was
>originally a bawdy song is not a good example, since the original lyrics to
>"Redwing" were not bawdy at all, but actually rather boring. The bawdy
>cowboy version of "Redwing" was one of many parodies, another being "Union
>Maid".
Hmmm... the bawdy version of "Redwing" I've heard isn't a cowboy
version, I think; it involves an Indian brave creeping down on
little Redwing as she "lay sleeping".
I do remember "Union Maid". Now we're gettin' to my roots as
a red-diaper baby. (That's a folk expression....)
Released on a 78 by Buster Carter & Preston Young, who also recorded "Roll
In My Sweet Baby's Arms" - one of the best versions.
BTW - Your mention of "Redwing" as an example of a BG song that was
originally a bawdy song is not a good example, since the original lyrics to
"Redwing" were not bawdy at all, but actually rather boring. The bawdy
cowboy version of "Redwing" was one of many parodies, another being "Union
Maid".
----------------------------------------------------------
Paul Gifford's bawdy lyrics to "The Girl I Left Behind Me" reminded me of
some Scottish bawdy fiddle tune lyrics included in James Barke's
introduction to Robert Burns' The Merry Muses of Caledonia, (G.P.
Putnam's, New York, 1964, pp. 27-28)
(To the tune of "The Girl I Left Behind Me")
O Mary Ann had a leg like a man
and a great big hole in her stockin'
A chest like a drum
and a big fat bum
and a hole to shove your cock in
(to "Pop Goes The Weasel")
Long and thin goes too far in
and doesn't please the ladies
Short and thick does the trick
and brings out proper babies
If you think that's hot stuff, you ought to check out Barke's description
of the infamous bawdy ballad, "The Ball of Kirriemuir," apparently
inspired by a Scottish barn dance that ended up in an orgy. The character
of this ballad is captured in the following verse:
They were fuckin' in the barn;
They were fuckin' in the ricks;
An ye couldna hear the music
for the swishing of the pricks." (p. 33)
No doubt about it; there is a Dionysian element to fiddling & dancing
that makes it demonic from the repressive puritanical Apollonian
perspective which links fiddling & dancing with drinking, fighting &
fornication. And in a way, it's true. All you have to do is read the
local news briefs in a smalltown Southern paper like ours, & you'll
see plenty of stories about Saturday night knife fights in the parking lot
of honkytonks. A lot of the older musicians around here in E TN say that
the oldtime dances accompanied by fiddles & banjos broke up because of
drinking & fighting. There are family style oldtime dances in this area,
but they are strictly non-alcoholic events, out of necessity as well as
choice. Interesting subject altogether....Happy Thanksgiving! Yours truly
Richard Blaustein (rblau...@aol.com.)
>Old-time music's social role generally tended to mitigate against bawdy
>material - indirect, metaphorical, etc. is what you mostly see. Really
>dirty songs are likely to be unaccompanied, used in male-only social settings.
....[cut]
Well, _often_ in male-only settings. I've been in plenty of settings (private
parties, bars), where women really want to hear those songs. Once I heard a
woman sing a parody of "Red Wing" in a mixed setting in a bar. On the other
hand, it is true that they are unaccompanied and usually done in intimate
settings. Then you might hear one during a break in a jam session, too.
Paul Gifford
Dave Gardner
"How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity
of ducks." --Dorothy Sayer
: No doubt about it; there is a Dionysian element to fiddling & dancing
: that makes it demonic from the repressive puritanical Apollonian
: perspective which links fiddling & dancing with drinking, fighting &
: fornication. And in a way, it's true. All you have to do is read the
: local news briefs in a smalltown Southern paper like ours, & you'll
: see plenty of stories about Saturday night knife fights in the parking lot
: of honkytonks. A lot of the older musicians around here in E TN say that
: the oldtime dances accompanied by fiddles & banjos broke up because of
: drinking & fighting. There are family style oldtime dances in this area,
: but they are strictly non-alcoholic events, out of necessity as well as
: choice. Interesting subject altogether....Happy Thanksgiving! Yours truly
: Richard Blaustein (rblau...@aol.com.)
"Didja go to the dance? Didja stay for the fight?"
I've seen etymologies that derived the word "brawl" from the traditional
French dance, the "bransle" or "branle", which indicates that the old
joke may be a very old one indeed.
Incidentally, I had a different set of words for "Rye Straw":
Dog shit a rye straw
Dog shit a jackstraw
Dog tore his asshole
Tryin' to shit a hacksaw.
Well, they don't really have to make sense.
Peace.
Paul
>The late lamented Gus Meade knew a number of off-color verses to fiddle
>tunes, such as Rye Straw and Granny WIll Your Dog Bite, as well as a sort
>of "Just So Story" song called "Little Bit of Wang," which extrapolated
>from the Genesis creation story to explain the attraction men have for
>women. Anyone else remember some of Gus' songs?
I'm sorry to learn of his passing. I don't know any of Gus's songs, but I do
know "Rye Straw," since you and Richard Blaustein both mentioned it. This is
Bill Bigford's version (sung to the same tune as "Pigtown Fling"/'Stony
Point"):
Dog shit a rye straw
Dog shit a riddle-o
Dog shit a rye straw
Big enough for dinner-o
Dog shit a catfish
Longer than a minner-o
Dog shit a catfish
Big enough for dinner-o
I think my memory's fading on the exact words.
Paul Gifford
It has long been a tradition among amateur rugby players to gather together
the opposing teams after a game for a few (or many) beers, accompanied by
the singing of an almost infinite number of bawdy songs. It has been
documented that this aspect of the sport has accounted for the survival
of the bawdy song tradition in the English speaking world. Some of the
many topics include "Methusalem, the harlot of Jerusalem", the "Wild West
Show", "Standing on the bridge at midnight". Many of these songs are
sung in multi-part harmony that has become standard over the years. No
doubt the men on the bus were ex-ruggers or rugby afficionados.
John Dura
>Dog shit a rye straw
>Dog shit a riddle-o
>Dog shit a rye straw
>Big enough for dinner-o
>Dog shit a catfish
>Longer than a minner-o
>Dog shit a catfish
>Big enough for dinner-o
>I think my memory's fading on the exact words.
I was pretty groggy when I wrote that yesterday. The fourth line should be
"Longer than a fiddle bow." Maybe we can hear more versions?
Paul Gifford
Dog shit a ryestraw,
Dog shit a fiddle bow,
Dog split his asshole
Tryin' to shit a grubbin' hoe.
Yours in good taste,
Dave Gardner