Are Contra Bands Old-time?
Bill Richardson
The proliferation of bands devoted to playing Contra Dances, such as Wild
Asperagus, begs the question- are these bands old-time? Are they NOT
old-time? I know, they mix in old-time tunes, but so do bluegrass bands.
Lots of old-time bands play for contra dances, but I have the feeling they
get left behind by the ones who tailor their arrangements and
intrumentation to contra dancing. A hot old-time band playing for contra
dances, like the Konnarock Kritters at the recent Merlefest, is a waste of
good music, in my opinion.
Bill Richardson
Blacksburg Virginia
Bo Bradham
Bill Richardson <bill...@caspian.ext.vt.edu> wrote:
>The proliferation of bands devoted to playing Contra Dances, such as Wild
>Asperagus, begs the question- are these bands old-time? Are they NOT
>old-time? I know, they mix in old-time tunes, but so do bluegrass bands.
That's gonna depend on your definition of "old time", isn't it?
And you're going to have to look at each band individually, you
can't just lump them all in together.
But before you undertake that, here's the real question that's
being begged: do you have to determine if a band is or is not "old time"
before you decide whether you like their music? Do you
decide to like a band because they fit some definition of "old
time" or because they sound good to you? Do you put off forming an
opinion on their music until their "old time" status has been
assessed?
Here's what Duke Ellington had to say about it:
"Any musician will agree that the final judgement of a musical
performance lies in its immediate impact on the human ear,
rather than in previous knowledge or academic study."
...
"The only thing that counts is the emotional effect on the
listener."
...
"When it sounds good, it is good."
[from Ellington's memoir "Music Is My Mistress"]
>Lots of old-time bands play for contra dances, but I have the feeling they
>get left behind by the ones who tailor their arrangements and
>intrumentation to contra dancing. A hot old-time band playing for contra
>dances, like the Konnarock Kritters at the recent Merlefest, is a waste of
>good music, in my opinion.
What do you mean by "a waste of good music"?
As to "old time" bands" being "left behind", what do you
expect? If a person is hiring a band and they have a choice
between a band who "tailor their arrangements and instrumentation"
to suit that person's needs and a band who don't, which band do you
think that person will hire?
[PS speaking of "definition of old time", thanks to everyone who
replied to my request for theirs a few weeks ago. I haven't
posted anything about it because, well, I still don't have any
coherent thoughts on it yet.]
Bo Bradham
--
"We consider that any man who can fiddle all through one of
those Virginia Reels without losing his grip, may be depended
upon in any kind of musical emergency."
-- Mark Twain.
Laura Leibensperger
In article <4m30ck$6...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, bill...@caspian.ext.vt.edu
(Bill Richardson) wrote:
> The proliferation of bands devoted to playing Contra Dances, such as Wild
> Asperagus, begs the question- are these bands old-time? Are they NOT
> old-time? I know, they mix in old-time tunes, but so do bluegrass bands.
>
> Lots of old-time bands play for contra dances, but I have the feeling they
> get left behind by the ones who tailor their arrangements and
> intrumentation to contra dancing. A hot old-time band playing for contra
> dances, like the Konnarock Kritters at the recent Merlefest, is a waste of
> good music, in my opinion.
>
> Bill Richardson
> Blacksburg Virginia
Here's one opinion from a browsing contra dancer:
No, contra dance bands are definitely NOT old time, at least not in the
"southern-based music" sense of the term! Contra bands have the New
England music tradition at the core, regardless of what direction that
tradition gets taken (a la Wild Asparagus). I agree with you that old-time
music doesn't always work for contras. Contras need a lot of "flow" for
long moves like heys and swings: in my totally humble and personal opinion,
old time music is a little too "punctuated", for lack of a better term, to
get that flow. It's good for dancing squares though, where you're doing a
lot of short little moves fast. But I'm a New Englander - I'm used to
dancing to "northern" music!
Laura Leibensperger
Boston (more or less),MA
Nate Goldshlag
> A hot old-time band playing for contra
> dances, like the Konnarock Kritters at the recent Merlefest, is a waste of
> good music, in my opinion.
I completely disagree! I love to do contra and square dances to a hot
old-time band. The dances at MerleFest were hot!
Nate
----------------------------------------------------------------
Nate Goldshlag "People ask me why I don't get fat
na...@reflection.com it's cause I like to dance like that.
I eat as much as I can hold
Cambridge, MA and go out and do the zydeco."
-- Marcia Ball
Frank Dalton/Emily Fine
Nate Goldshlag writes:
>I love to do contra and square dances to a hot old-time band.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Nate or other Contra dancers, but I always thought
that most dancers who were really into dancing serious Contras, would just as
soon not have a rhythmic, Southern style band playing. Also, I know lots of
Contra fanatics who would just as soon never dance a square.
Regards, FD
********************************************
Frank Dalton Emily Fine Nate Dalton
Do not replace family traditions with
media imposed conventions.
- Marc Savoy
<dal...@mail.med.upenn.edu>
********************************************
Kerry, Sheila, & Mirabelle Blech
In article <4m53vb$l...@panix2.panix.com> Bo Bradham wrote:
>Here's what Duke Ellington had to say about it:
Uh...
Is this Ellington feller a banjo or fiddle player?
Regards,
Kerry
****** ******** ******** ***** *****
Kerry Blech Sheila Klauschie Blech Mirabelle Rose Blech
Seattle, Washington, U.S.A.
"The old tunes are the best tunes" -- Luther Davis
Nancy Mamlin
On 29 Apr 1996, Bill Richardson wrote:
> The proliferation of bands devoted to playing Contra Dances, such as Wild
> Asperagus, begs the question- are these bands old-time? Are they NOT
> old-time? I know, they mix in old-time tunes, but so do bluegrass bands.
>
> Lots of old-time bands play for contra dances, but I have the feeling they
> get left behind by the ones who tailor their arrangements and
> intrumentation to contra dancing. A hot old-time band playing for contra
> dances, like the Konnarock Kritters at the recent Merlefest, is a waste of
> good music, in my opinion.
Well, I have several questions about this myself:
First of all, why does the fact that bands exist that play contra dances
beg any questions at all beside whether or not to hear them?
Second, I suspect that you are using a rather narrow definition of OT,
which is probably one that I would agree with more readily than one that
includes contra bands from NE, particularly the more electric of them.
Given that, then those bands *aren't* OT. However, I wouldn't make the
leap that they aren't enjoyable or worthwhile or whatever makes you want
to question something. I like 'em fine. They are what they are.
Third, what about bands that *are* truly OT who have concerntrated on
tailoring their dance repertoire to fit the needs of the dances (as Bo
suggested might be desireable)? Ron Cole springs to mind as an example-
all of his recent bands have developed medleys, arrangements, key changes,
etc. within the context of OT music (and with a banjo palyer no less!).
His latest band, The Blue Ridge Road Gang, even does this, and we are
decidedly more "traditional" than some of the others you may be familiar
with (Blue Ridge Mountain Minstrels, Rhythm Grinders, etc.)
Fourth, I recently had a conversation with Brian Grim about the Konnaorck
Critters (with a C) playing music for contra dances. His complaint is
that the dances are too slow. My complaint with their playing for contra
dances is that they *play* too slow. If they would tear up those tunes as
they do the square dance tunes, it would definitely not be a "waste" of
anything. As I told him, it's up to the caller to choose the right dances
for a band who excels in bringing down the house.
Fifth, I didn't see you at the Merlefest, Bill. Were you there?
See ya,
Nancy Mamlin
Beech Mountain, NC
Paul M. Gifford
In article <l_leibensperge...@128.103.108.33> l_leibe...@nocmsmgw.harvard.edu (Laura Leibensperger) writes:
>Here's one opinion from a browsing contra dancer:
>No, contra dance bands are definitely NOT old time, at least not in the
>"southern-based music" sense of the term! Contra bands have the New
>England music tradition at the core, regardless of what direction that
>tradition gets taken (a la Wild Asparagus). I agree with you that old-time
>music doesn't always work for contras. Contras need a lot of "flow" for
>long moves like heys and swings: in my totally humble and personal opinion,
>old time music is a little too "punctuated", for lack of a better term, to
>get that flow. It's good for dancing squares though, where you're doing a
>lot of short little moves fast. But I'm a New Englander - I'm used to
>dancing to "northern" music!
The trouble with these definitions is that "old-time" is seen to be one
specific style from a fairly tight area----fiddle and clawhammer banjo from
the southern Appalachians, recorded and recycled and revived----while contra
revival music is derived only in part from traditional old-time New England
dance music. A lot of it comes from the English Folk Song and Dance Society
publications and dances. In reality, I'm sure, truly traditional dances from
different parts of the U.S. are not all that different as they are sometimes
made out to be. A lot of fiddle tunes, in tradition, are common to both New
England and the rest of the country----Miss McLeod's Reel, Devil's Dream,
etc., etc.
Paul Gifford
Richard Crew
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:03:10, Frank Dalton/Emily Fine <dal...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
: Nate Goldshlag writes:
:
: >I love to do contra and square dances to a hot old-time band.
:
: Correct me if I'm wrong, Nate or other Contra dancers, but I always thought
: that most dancers who were really into dancing serious Contras, would just as
: soon not have a rhythmic, Southern style band playing. Also, I know lots of
: Contra fanatics who would just as soon never dance a square.
Hmmmmm.......
Here in north central Florida, we do a lot a contra dancing to old-time
music, and in my opinion, it can be just wonderful. But I must confess
that some folks I know, who are very good dancers, and who came from the
northern tradition like I did, find it more difficult to dance to old-time
music than to New England style music.
For whatever amusement value it may have, the experience that convinced
me that it was possible to do a contra to old-time music took place in
Minnesota, of all places (the tune was Waiting for Nancy).
I'll admit that I still find it quite jarring to dance Chorus Jig
or Hull's Victory to, let's say, Sugar in the Gourd or Mississippi Sawyer,
which is what people do here. I guess I'll get over it, some day.
The one absolute necessity is that the music should be compellingly
rhythmic, and a good band should be able to achieve this no matter what
the style is.
--Rich
cr...@math.ufl.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
One shudders at the notion that the Internet could become the least
common denominator -- where "decent" is defined by the Americans,
and "politically correct" by the Chinese.
--Jacques Gaillot, Bishop of Partenia
Bill Richardson
Bo- bluegrass bands arose out of old-time and eventually they had their
own genre, even though they still play lots of old-time tunes. I can see
the same thing happening with contra bands, who also are derived from
old-time. Sure, they could still play a traditional square dance, just
like a bluegrass band can, but it isn't a very good fit. I made no
judgement on the music of contra bands, besides wondering whether a
distinction has arisen yet. I can see it coming- can't you?
Nancy- Ron Cole is a remarkable old-time fiddler and anyone who knows him
knows his credentials as a fiddler and interpreter of the music. The fact
that your old-time band is stretching the genre to play contra dances
doesn't mean the question can't be asked. All the contra bands started
the same way- playing old-time music for contra dances, and stretching the
genre to fit the dance form.
Jim- my old-time band has never played a contra dance, which might be one
reason our bass player formed another band to play contras! I've never
called a contra, unless you want to classify the Virginia Reel as one,
which I don't. But I rarely get out of Virginia to call. There's a
famous caller from Pittsburg who only calls squares- Doloris Hegley.
Everyone knows on the big map there are more contra dance jobs for
old-time bands than square dances. More and more there are bands playing
strictly for contra dances- are they old-time? Which band contest would
they enter at Clifftop, assuming they left their electronic instruments at
home?
Playing contras offers musical opportunities that just aren't there if you
want to play old-time, like with my bass player who also good on the
hammered dulcimer and piano. It reminds me a lot of the progression that
bluegrass underwent. Its an outlet for talent. Not that we old-time
musicians aren't talented- but you don't see us taking hot leads and solos
very often.
Bill Richardson
blacksburg, virginia
Kerry, Sheila, & Mirabelle Blech
This question is actually a lot deeper than just whether contra
bands are old time. It also is a question of just what is old time
music, one that (I think) Bo Bradham posed a while back. There is
an awful lot of fodder and fertilizer inherant in this thread.
I myself have lots of mixed feelings.
I am quite fond of some old Northern music that I have on 78
records (or tapes thereof), such as the Hormelsville Hillbillies
from New York State and lots of Quebecois stuff, even Maine's
Mellie Dunham. My family tree includes fiddlers and callers from
rural upstate NY and from Quebec, in fact. In some cases I would
classify such musicians as old time, but some others I would not,
opting more for a classification of ethnic music or something like
that.
But...my grandmother called the dances they did at the turn of the
century up there "square dances," as they primarily used square
sets, and probably they were quadrilles. Shortly before she died
(in 1986 at the age of 88), I asked her about contra dances and she
had no idea what I was talking about. They did one dance something
akin to the Virginia Reel, but I never found out what they called
opposing line dance formations.
I have long enjoyed older styled Quebecois music and other older
music from the Northeast. I don’t enjoy the "fusion" music that
has evolved up there, nor do I care much for Southern-rooted
"fusion" music. I also enjoy music from Thrace, Dacia, and Soweto,
but I don’t really want to hear it in the middle of a square or
contra dance. I prefer keeping the traditions discrete.
If biases need be known, my dancing druthers tend more strongly to
exciting squares than to the contra form. Contras just are too
repetitititive for me. Almost mindless. With a great square, you
have to be alert and on your toes to hear what treat the caller
will toss out next.
Appropriate music was raised earlier in this thread. Let’s talk
about contra bands here for a second. For many years it has been
trendy to have contra bands loot and pillage the Emerald Isle’s
store of reels, jigs, and hornpipes, as if New England material was
not good enough. Haven’t we heard enough Em medlies? There are
some great NE tunes, and tons o’ them. And just having some Celtoid
tunes in a medley does not mean they will workl for contras. A
band must be selective in what it plays.
But I think it is the overarranging that really bugs me. Dramatic
key changes, and insertion of V-chords into tunes where they don’t
belong appals me to no end. It is demeaning and insulting to the
dancers’ intelligence to resort to such obvious cheap tricks. What
happened to great, rock solid traditional music? A good dancer
doesn’t need a goose in the butt or brick across the head.
Gimmicks, cheap thrills..., gimme a break, this isn’t rock and
roll....or is it?
Has popular culture and the shortened MTV attention span again
driven tradition from an age old practice? I hope not.
I occasionally play for dances, preferably Southern-style dances,
squares, circles, etc., but I must, because of contemporary
circumstances, often play for contras. I do have the presence of
mind to select traditional Southern tunes that work well for
contras, knowing that every 32-bar tune does not necessarily work.
By the same token, a lot of 16-bar, 24-bar, irregular, or crooked
tunes may not work for squares. Such situations call for a lot of
communication between caller and band (which brings up a couple of
cartoons...) and knowledge of each other.
A dance should not be solely an intellectual pursuit or aerobic
pursuit, but primariliy should be a community event, with the
dancers, caller, band all attuned. This is true in North or South,
East or West, no matter what the formation. In this respect, we
are all in the same boat.
I never really answered whether contra bands were old time. I’d
say that some are, those that play the old traditional repertoire
in a traditional style. Are "Southern-style" (for want of a better
term) bands old time? If they play the old traditional repertoire
in a traditional style, they are to me. If they don’t, no, they
are not old time in my book.
Well, I better let this one go. That was my 2 dinars worth.
Fred Pribac
Paul M. Gifford wrote:
> ... intersting comments ... A lot of fiddle tunes, in tradition, are common to
> both New England and the rest of the country----Miss McLeod's Reel, Devil's Dream,
> etc., etc.
Right!
I've happened to play some of the same common tunes (eg. soldiers joy, over the
waterfall, & see above) for square dances, contra's and colonial australian balls,
with different specialist bands.
If the chosen tune has the right basic structure for the dance, eg. aabb, (=32 bars)
without any peculiar hiccups, then it's how you "swing" and "harmonize" the tune and
the "instrumentation" that gives it the feel you need.
Unless the dance has a specific tune, whatever tune will marry the dance rythm to the
dancers feet, and sounds cool, will work fine!
It's really only when you are presenting "historically and regionally correct" dance
exhibitions/workshops that tune choice, and arrangement, becomes critical. The rest
of the time you might as well just strive for "fun"!
my antipodean 2 cents,
fred
:
ri...@archytas.duckpond (Richard Crew) wrote:
%On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:03:10, Frank Dalton/Emily Fine
<dal...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
snip
%
% For whatever amusement value it may have, the experience that convinced
% me that it was possible to do a contra to old-time music took place in
% Minnesota, of all places (the tune was Waiting for Nancy).
%
Well, Waiting for Nancy is an absolute "killer" contradance tune,
and i say that as a person who can be quite curmudgeonly about
"unsuitable" tunes for contra's. But W for N has it all; 32 bars
(of course) tight, well defined phrasing, A and B parts really
different, the sub parts of the A and B different enough that a dancer
trying to remember what part of the dance they're in (remember the caller
shuts up after 4-5 times through) won't be confused. Plenty o excitement;
just turn yer fiddler loose once through w/o the backup (or better yet, yer
two fiddlers). And it's not hard to play.
Now of course you need to play the tune like a contra tune, keep a nice
steady beat at whatever your dancers are used to dancing to; make the
start of each A and B clear (and the halfway points). And then you _are_
free to do whatever other musical cheap tricks you want even including
leading the start of a bar forward, leaning into the phrase. Just look out
on the floor (y'all aren't sitting around in a tight little circle
ignoring the dancers of course) and make sure you're not playing
little games with the rhythm right where the dancers need to do something
_all together_.
A number of years ago Scotsbroome Band here in Seattle (who play for
a pretty traditional contra dance) hosted Ted Sannella for an afternoon
workshop and the evening dance. His tunelist, through a screwup, didn't
precede him, else we'd have bent our repertoire a bit more for him. But
as it was we played _our_ stuff. We had been closing dances with a medley
Grandfather's Polka (an English Polka )/ Dark Girl Dressed
in Blue(another one, but driven and oldtimeyized)/ Waiting for N.
Come the end ofthe last half, he shows us his dance and the tune he
liked. Feeling confident (the day had gone well) we said something like
"we've got a coupla tunes we like to end with" and dropped in the world
"oldtimey". Uncle Ted had of course seen it all, and wasn't about
to be fazed, but you could see him barely flinch. Off we went; on up thru
the first two, turning up the excitement. Then for the change into #3,
drop off the piano, two fiddles (double-stopped, o'course, in key of A)
into waiting for Nancy; all the way thru w/o backup, then the next time w/o
backup as well, maybe a third, picking up the other instruments one
at a time. not a beat missed up on the stage, nor out on the floor.
Hoots and hollers. By the time this cheap trick was over, Uncle Ted
is bouncing up and down on his heels w/ a little smile on his face.
And then of course (since we _are_ of course a very trad band) the
re-entrance of the big New England piano backup. More hoots and hollers.
So if you've paid attention to what you're doing, what kind of dancing
you're playing for, and how fast it goes, you can find some _very_
contradanceable oldtymetunes, that will keep even very traditional
callers and dancers happy. I'm convinced that the reason we learned
to do all this and "get it right" is musicians like Warren Argo, Tony Mates,
Sandy Bradley, Armin Barnett, Mike Schway, Mike Richardson, who have been
around _both_ contra and Southern square dancing, and know the difference.
% I'll admit that I still find it quite jarring to dance Chorus Jig
% or Hull's Victory to, let's say, Sugar in the Gourd or Mississippi Sawyer,
% which is what people do here. I guess I'll get over it, some day.
%
Well god (small g, Northern version) will strike you dead ;-) if
you don't at least open and probably close Hull's Victory or
CJ w/ the respective "name" tunes. But lately I've heard some
very exciting and close-fitting medleys used for the Yankee
"chestnut" dances. (for example I think you could probably
use Waiting for Nancy for the (dance) CJ, if you followed on
after the (tune) CJ and (say) Opera Reel (a _fine_ O.T. tune,
btw.) Personally we use a Newfoundland oldtime A reel in that third
slot, but you could probably use W for N if you could figure out
how to get "home" to the CJ tune at the end.
Paul J. Stamler
If I can chime in, I think we're in the midst of another stylistic shift
in contra dancing and the music played for it. To put it in perspective
requires some history.
Twenty-five years ago, if you did contra dancing, you almost certainly
(a) lived in New England (or possibly Michigan), and (b) danced to New
England style contra dance music. This was characterized by repertoire
that was derived from British Isles material to a great extent, with some
French-Canadian tunes as well, a rolling beat that was carried by the
piano, and emphasized the "lift" of the music on the 2 and 4 beats of a
4/4 measure (3 and 6 on a 6/8 tune). Instrumentation usually included
fiddle, piano and accordion, and sometimes whistles and trap drums
(probably these snuck into the tradition from 1920s and 1930s dance bands).
In the 1970s, contra dancing began to spring up in the midwest, centering
around Bloomington, IN, Chicago and St. Louis (among other places).
Although a few of the groups used New England music at first, they
quickly switched to souther-style stringbands, mostly because of the
availability of musicians who played in that style. These musicians came
out of the stringband revival that was led by the New Lost City Ramblers,
the Fuzzy Mountain SB, and the Highwoods SB (again among others). The
beat was different, and in some ways the revival string bands, at least
when playing for contras, used a different style than the old 78s. The
beat was carried primarily on the guitar, which was flatpicked with a
"boom-chang" or sometimes "boom-chuck" combined with bass runs, a style
owing something to the influence of bluegrass players. (The guitarists in
many of the southern stringbands of the 20s and 30s tended to be a lot
notier, with lots of bass runs and not so much "chang" or "chuck".)
The tempos also got faster, as the southern-style bands typically played
faster than New England bands. The "zesty contra" style became firmly
established in the midwest, and many new dances began to be written that
worked well at the faster tempos, with the altered beat of the
southern-style bands. This style has also spread to other parts of the
country, especially among younger dancers and newer dance groups.
In the last couple of years, a new style of music has begun to evolve
simultaneously in several places, which I believe is a "back-formation"
from the newer styles of dancing. The repertoire is New England-based, but
the tempos are quicker, often almost as fast as midwestern stringbands,
and the energy level is very high. And the beat has changed again, being
neither the rolling New England beat nor the boom-chang of the southern
style, but one that in someways resembles the Count Basie beat, with
almost equal emphasis on all four beats of a 4/4 measure. It's a cross
between jazz players' "sock" rhythm and a beat derived from rock (not
rock'n'roll, which is less even); it's played primarily on a hard-
strummed guitar, rather than with bass notes combined with strums. The
instrumentation is eclectic, and may include electric instruments, but the
instrumentation, to my mind, is less important than the altered beat in
defining this new style, which I take the liberty of calling "Third
Stream", after an eclectic movement in jazz back a few decades ago.
Examples include Wild Asparagus (New England), Pigs' Eye Landing
(Minnesota) and String Dancer (St. Louis).
The Third Stream bands' music works well with the recently composed
contras, sometimes less well with the older contras (although some fit
remarkably well, if you dance them slightly differently than before). No
doubt, if this new style remains popular, people will be writing dances
that fit best with Third Stream.
The Chinese have a curse: "May you live in interesting times". I think
we're living through a series of changes in the dances and the music
that, to some extent, mirror the changes in the society in which they are
embedded. Is this a curse? Or is it the product of a tradition that is
sufficiently alive that it continues to evolve, rather than remaining frozen?
Gotta go change my strings.
Peace.
Paul
Paul J. Stamler
I have taken the liberty of forwarding the original comment and the
correspondence up to reply #13 to rec.folk-dancing, where I expect it
will generate further interesting discussion. If you're going to join the
talk, it might be good to cross-post there as well.
Peace.
Paul
Paul Mitchell
On 1 May 1996, Bill Richardson wrote:
> There's a famous caller from Pittsburg who only calls squares- Doloris
> Hegley.
I believe Bill is referring to Deloris Heagy (watch I've got her name
wrong too; can a real dancer please step up here and set us right)?
I had the good fortune of playing a Thurs. night dance at the Cambridge
VFW behind her calling. I'll never forget it either; at the start of the
dance, everybody lined right up in long Contra lines and she just stared
at them and asked "what are you doing?"
Let me tell you, she got the place rocking, (to say the least). The
room's moving, then she starts moving, and the whole thing becomes very
kinetic.
Paul
==============================================================================
Paul Mitchell email: pa...@thing.oit.unc.edu
Office of Information Technology phone: (919) 962-5259
University of North Carolina
==============================================================================
Nancy Mamlin
On Thu, 2 May 1996, Paul Mitchell wrote:
> On 1 May 1996, Bill Richardson wrote:
>
> > There's a famous caller from Pittsburg who only calls squares- Doloris
> > Hegley.
> I believe Bill is referring to Deloris Heagy (watch I've got her name
> wrong too; can a real dancer please step up here and set us right)?
Poor Dolores Heagy has had her name misspelled more times than I have!
Tom Hinds is probably in second place in that category, actually.
While we're at it, let's all learn to spell Pittsburgh, PA. The one
without an "h" is in California.
> I had the good fortune of playing a Thurs. night dance at the Cambridge
> VFW behind her calling. I'll never forget it either; at the start of the
> dance, everybody lined right up in long Contra lines and she just stared
> at them and asked "what are you doing?"
That won't happen for a while. That was certainly in the days that Todd
Whittmore was running that dance. Now they require NE music and a
predominance of contras. I've marked it off my list as surely as George
Marshall has had to mark Blacksburg off his.
Bill- I'm getting a little confused about the issues you raise= maybe I'm
misunderstanding. If an old-time band plays for a contra dance are they
not an old-time band? And are you considering NE bands in your questions
or just those of us, for financial reasons among others, who choose to
play for contra dances? (Actually as a caller I have a few other motives
for calling at "contra dances", like demonstrating how much fun squares are!)
Take care,
Nancy Mamlin
--Watch this space for a tour list soon!
Dave Goldman
Kerry Blech's eloquent posting does an excellent job of staking out one
end of the spectrum of opinion on dance & music: Kerry prefers "keeping
the traditions discrete". Irish tunes for Irish dances, Southern tunes for
Southern squares, and New England tunes for New England contradances.
(Also, Balkan tunes for each of their original countries' dances.)
I have no trouble accepting that Kerry and others have this preference,
and if I ever have occasion to work with these people I will do my best to
accommodate them.
I respect Kerry's personal reaction of being "appalled" by "overarranged"
tunes and medleys at contradances.
BUT...
When Kerry says:
> It is demeaning and insulting to the
> dancers' intelligence to resort to such obvious cheap tricks.
then he has moved from expressing his personal feelings about what he does
or doesn't enjoy to a statement about _other_ people's opinions and
emotional responses. And this _can_ be debated.
It's very simple:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the majority of contemporary dancers didn't enjoy the cheap tricks,
then bands wouldn't be supplying so many cheap tricks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you think that Wild Asparagus can command unusually high
renumeration when they come touring? Here in Portland, Oregon, a Wild
Asparagus gig is a guaranteed attendance record-breaker. I cannot be
persuaded that this is because our dancers are clamoring to be demeaned
and have their intelligence insulted.
Nor can I be persuaded that when my band sustains a bass drone an entire
time through a tune, and then finally resolves it to a roomful of excited
shouts, that this cheap trick (and it absolutely is a cheap trick) is
something the dancers find offensive.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
These weekly/monthly dances are _not_ workshops in 19th century New
England contradance and its music. They are community events where the
dancers, whose tastes certainly are influenced by their daily cultural
exposures, want to have fun. They are paying the band to entertain them.
The dancers are the customers, and if you want the dance series to stay
afloat then you have an obligation to give the customers want they want.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I guess that here I'm staking out the other end of the spectrum of
opinion alluded to at the start of this post.]
I recognize that bands and musicians who do not enjoy playing these
"non-traditional" musical styles will naturally feel resentful and annoyed
by the popularity of bands who do play them.
But we're talking natural selection here. Contradancing is a _living_
form. There are pressures on it to evolve. The biggest pressure comes from
trying to convince dancers to hand over their money every week or month.
I've had conversations with Bob McQuillen in which he's described how
contradance music has _always_ (in his lifetime, anyhow) absorbed elements
of popular culture. When big bands were big, contra bands included brass
sections. Now very few do -- does this mean that to be "traditional" we
should be adding a couple of trumpets to all of our bands?
Maybe this gets to the defintion of "traditional" dance music. I think
that people who feel as Kerry does (please forgive me for putting words
into your mouth here!) might, if pressed, define this as what was done in
a given region in the days before the people there were massively exposed
to the music of other regions and groups. I say "massively" to refer to
developments like radio, which brought "foreign" music to everyone -- I
imagine that folklorists would be able to point to older visitations of
outside musical traditions, such as French Canadian tunes "invading" New
England, to which Kerry wouldn't object.
A very different definition of "traditional" dance music would be that it
is the _process_ of musical change and the need to entertain dancers that
constitute tradition. That the contradance tradition lies not in having a
roomful of people go through the moves of Lady Walpole's Reel, but rather
in having that roomful of people come in after a hard week's work to
socialize with their friends and dance with them in an expression of joy.
Both of these approaches are valuable. If people like Kerry didn't
continually strive to keep the old forms pure, the old tunes and styles
would soon disappear, which would be a great musical and cultural loss.
And if people like Wild Asparagus or the Clayfoot Strutters didn't
continually strive to fuse the old forms with contemporary musical tastes
and exposures, then contradances would die out, which would also be a
great loss.
As long as we've got musicians, organizers, and dancers stationed at all
points of the opinion spectrum, then contradance and contradance music
will be alive and well.
-- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR
Bill Tomczak
Being the particular kind of fool that I am, I can't resist this
thread.
Many thanks to Paul Stamler for catching us up here at
rec.folk.dancing.
A few random thoughts:
1) I quit playing for international folk dancing years ago because I
was too prone to getting caught up in the endless arguments about what
was "proper" and traditional. It looks like this disease is now
rampant with all sorts of "American" folk music. Why is everyone so
concerned about categorizations?
I've lately found myself retelling this, my favorite wedding phone
call: To describe the music they wanted, the groom said to me - "Louis
Jordan, Glenn Miller, The Grateful Dead, you know, stuff like that".
Anyone who can succesfully tell me what category you'd put "stuff like
that" in, will solve a long standing riddle for me.
2) With a little help from the Duke, I thought Bo made the point well.
If you like it, it's good. Do really care if it fits some predefined
category that now only exists on recordings?
3) So much of music is an expression of the times and the culture of
the people making it. Particular ways of playing become popular
exactly because that's what turns most people on. How many of you sat
around playing tunes with your daddy (or other local friend/relative)
on a regular basis in your childhood. Remember, no records, no radio,
no TV, just your local, limited group of neighbors and no traveling
all over hell and gone. If this lifestyle still exists it's pretty
rare. And I very much doubt anybody reading this on the
super-interhypeway have ever experienced it or would want to. So we
should be surprised that our music doesn't reflect a lifestyle that
doesn't exist?
4) Just because everyone else likes it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Just because my taste is not shared by more than a small minority of
people doesn't make my taste any better (or worse). It's just
different.
5) Just because a band plays tunes that originated from a particular,
identifiable tradition has no bearing on whether that band has that
"tradition at the core". Their relationship could very likely be
antagonistic to that tradition. As someone else in this thread pointed
out, I sometimes get the feeling that bands feel like they need to
"fix" a tradition as if there is something wrong with it. What does it
mean if gimmicks and flash are more important than just good, plain
old solid music?
Okayokay, I'll shut up now.
Bill
_________________________________________________________________________
)Bill Tomczak )"90% of everything is crud" )
)btom...@sover.net ) )
)http://www.sover.net/~btomczak/ ) - Theodore Sturgeon )
Gordon Banks
In article <Pine.SOL.3.93.96050...@thing.oit.unc.edu> Paul Mitchell <pa...@thing.oit.unc.edu> writes:
>On 1 May 1996, Bill Richardson wrote:
>
>> There's a famous caller from Pittsburg who only calls squares- Doloris
>> Hegley.
>
>I believe Bill is referring to Deloris Heagy (watch I've got her name
>wrong too; can a real dancer please step up here and set us right)?
>
I'm no dancer but I know Dolores Heagy. She's the head of the Coal
Country Cloggers here in Pittsburgh. Also plays fiddle and banjo.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks N3JXP |"Caminante, no hay camino.
http://www.pitt.edu/~gebanks | Se hace camino, al andar." -Antonio Machado
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Leech
In article <318ad667...@news.sover.net>,
Bill Tomczak <btom...@sover.net> wrote:
>I've lately found myself retelling this, my favorite wedding phone
>call: To describe the music they wanted, the groom said to me - "Louis
>Jordan, Glenn Miller, The Grateful Dead, you know, stuff like that".
>Anyone who can succesfully tell me what category you'd put "stuff like
>that" in, will solve a long standing riddle for me.
I don't know about the Grateful Dead. But if you replace them with
"Jerry Lee Lewis" or "Gloria Estefan" or a variety of other pop (in their
time) artists, I'd categorize it as "contemporary ballroom dance music"
(contemporary as in "stuff that is danced to today", not "today's stuff that
is danced to"). I suppose there are Dead tunes that qualify, though I don't
listen to them enough to know.
Jon
__@/
Will McDonald
Good thoughts in this thread most of which I agree with.
It reminds me of a callers workshop I attended where the leader tried to
get me into an argument the first night I was there. He was coming out
of the modern western square realm and I am of the contra persuasion in
the Boston tradition. He asked "when did dancing stop being
traditional"? I gathered this was a common discussion in his circles.
I replied that I believed what I was doing was traditional. This was
unacceptable to him but that is not my point here.
We are in a tradition with many branches. I think we should remember
that and I think caring about the tradition keeping it in our hearts
makes us traditional no matter what direction we go. Or at least I
would say that to the rec.folk-dancing group.
To the "rec.music.country.old-time" group I would say, lets jus' play
them tunes and let someone else figger what to call em.
Will McDonald
Nancy Mamlin
On Sat, 4 May 1996, Bill Tomczak wrote:
> Many thanks to Paul Stamler for catching us up here at
> rec.folk.dancing.
To further catch you up, I think that the original poster was really
talking about old-time bands that "sell out" and play for contra dances.
Since I've always done that, not having enough traditional square dances
around to play for, I really didn't see what the big deal was. Nor does
it matter to me if bands want to increase their appeal to contra dancers
by resorting to "cheap tricks" (since my current band does just that).
> 1) I quit playing for international folk dancing years ago because I
> was too prone to getting caught up in the endless arguments about what
> was "proper" and traditional. It looks like this disease is now
> rampant with all sorts of "American" folk music. Why is everyone so
> concerned about categorizations?
Yep. You're right. I don't mind the discussions/arguements myself, since
I don't believe it will have any real trickle down effect on the
community dance scene in general... Does anyone out there think that it will?
> 3) So much of music is an expression of the times and the culture of
> the people making it. Particular ways of playing become popular
> exactly because that's what turns most people on. How many of you sat
> around playing tunes with your daddy (or other local friend/relative)
> on a regular basis in your childhood. Remember, no records, no radio,
I did.
> Okayokay, I'll shut up now.
Okay Bill. (And let's not tell the folks on rec.music.counrty.old-time
that you're a clarinet player...)
See ya'll,
Nancy Mamlin
--watch this space for a tour list...
Paul M. Gifford
>3) So much of music is an expression of the times and the culture of
>the people making it. Particular ways of playing become popular
>exactly because that's what turns most people on. How many of you sat
>around playing tunes with your daddy (or other local friend/relative)
>on a regular basis in your childhood. Remember, no records, no radio,
>no TV, just your local, limited group of neighbors and no traveling
>all over hell and gone. If this lifestyle still exists it's pretty
>rare. And I very much doubt anybody reading this on the
>super-interhypeway have ever experienced it or would want to.
Well, I think it's fair to say that most kids growing up in a musical
household have this experience. I did. My father was a Juilliard-educated
pianist and flutist who grew up chording to his fiddler father, who did the
same before him, and when I got interested in old-time fiddle and dulcimer
music as a teenager (through his interest), he showed me what he knew, and
what he had learned from his family and neighbors. These traditions are
important to me personally. These are regional styles (western NY/MI),
unrecorded, etc.
This obviously doesn't mean that other influences aren't or shouldn't be at
work. It's just that, as Kerry said, one should be aware of these styles.
In the last several years I've mostly been playing Romanian music (at
weddings, christenings, and a restaurant). Sometimes we may do "fusions" of
old-time songs with Romanian cimbalom accompaniment, turning something into a
hora, but that's mainly for spontaneous laughs. But ordinarily, I like to
keep traditions separate. The approach, however, is the same.
Obviously contra dancing has developed into something different from what it
was 25 years ago. From what I saw then, however, it wasn't all that close to
tradition, although it was identified as "New England." It seems to me that
the repertoire was influence by Ralph Page and the English Folk Song and Dance
Society's book of tunes. Then Canadian (not just Quebecois) fiddling, a la
Don Messer and Graham Townsend, was big, not to mention Irish tunes.
There were contra dances (called "country dances") further west from New
England---in Michigan up to the '20s the Money Musk, Opera Reel, and Irish
Trot were danced. In western New York, those dances, as well as the Crooked
S, the Fireman's Dance, and others were done. Those dances, however, were
just included among many other square and round dances.
Just some unconnected comments.
Paul Gifford
Bill Richardson
I have the feeling we should be continually staking out our ground in
old-time music. For instance, the big first wave of growth in bluegrass
music nearly snuffed out old-time music in the southern mountains for many
years. They had to come up with old-time *and* bluegrass categories at the
fiddlers conventions, to protect old-time music for one reason. There are
still many parts of Southwest Virginia where you can't find any old-time
music, while now around Galax it is thriving, played by young and old
alike. How often do we as old-time musicians have to distinguish
ourselves or explain our music to people who only know of something called
bluegrass?
More recently (and locally for me), there is a sunday event at Mabry's
Mill on the Blue Ridge Parkway in southwest Virginia, that features
old-time music and flatfooting. When this event got started, it was a
free-for-all musicly. Then people started arguing over whether bluegrass
or old-time was more appropriate, and the old-time musicians won out. The
National Park Service decided they would have old-time music, and that
bluegrass could go elsewhere. So at this one little local event, which
attracts thousands of people both local and passing through each year, its
clear what kind music they are hearing- *old-time*.
Nowadays in my region, I get the feeling that people are starting to
descern on a general level that there are two kinds of local native music-
bluegrass *and* old-time.
So, I see the potential for the same thing happening in regards to the
growth in numbers of contra bands playing contra music. I don't see any
disdvantage to us in making a distinction.
For example, say the L-7's or Blue Ridge Minstrels band play a contra
dance. Well, not only are they playing great music- they are *old-time*!
Bill Richardson
blacksburg, virginia
Kiran Wagle
psta...@crl.com (Paul J. Stamler) wrote:
Bill Richardson (bill...@caspian.ext.vt.edu) wrote:
>> A hot old-time band playing for contra dances, like the Konnarock Kritters
>> at the recent Merlefest, is a waste of good music, in my opinion.
Why?
There do exist contra dancers who both understand what hot old-time music
is and like to dance to it whenever possible. Is it a waste to play for
them, any more than a hot "northern" band's music is "wasted" playing for
contra dancers (or any audience) that can't fully appreciate it?
~ Kiran <ent...@io.com>
--
"Let's see. In the 18th c. they practiced bloodletting, used
wooden violins with gut strings, listened to Mozart and wrote
the US Constitution. In the 20th century we have electric guitars,
Barry Manilow and Pol Pot. What's your point again?" --François Velde
Kiran Wagle
(Okay, got to attack this thread before it expires.)
Laura Leibensperger <l_leibe...@nocmsmgw.harvard.edu> wrote:
> Here's one opinion from a browsing contra dancer:
> No, contra dance bands are definitely NOT old time,
> at least not in the "southern-based music" sense of the term!
Oh, hmm, so the String Beings, the Freight Hoppers, the Red Mountain White
Trash, Ralph Blizard and the New Southern Ramblers, and more Midwestern
bands than I can count aren't really contra dance bands? Funny, nobody
told them that, nor the people who dance to them.
(I don't *know* that Ralph plays for contradances; however, he played
recently at a local dance weekend which I missed because they publicised
the *other* band. I do know that I'd drive 500 miles to dance to this
band in an instant.)
> I agree with you that old-time music doesn't always work for contras.
> Contras need a lot of "flow" for long moves like heys and swings: in my
> totally humble and personal opinion, old time music is a little too
> "punctuated", for lack of a better term, to get that flow.
On this we disagree. I feel that New England music is a lot more
punctuated than old-time music, and other people grumble that old-time
music doesn't have clear enough phrasing (in other words, it all runs
together), and indeed, people write dances with weird phrasing (contra
corners crossing from B1 to B2, for example) in places where they dance to
old-time music. :-)
> Contra bands have the New England music tradition at the core, regardless
> of what direction that tradition gets taken (a la Wild Asparagus).
This is simply untrue, and this is one reason I think we need more, not
less, dance-gypsying and band touring. The contra dance bands *that you
dance to* may have the New England tradition at the core; the contra dance
bands I dance to emphatically do not.
Have you danced to that hottest of Connecticut bands, the Please and Thank
You String Band? I don't hear much New England tradition in their
playing. And I have a hard time finding any New England in that Vermont
band I love so much, the Clayfoot Stutters. Closer to (my) home are the
Buzzard Rock Bayou Boys, one of Virginia's two hottest dance bands. They
are a _contra_ dance band; do you claim that *they* are "New England
tradition at the core"?
Or do you mean to suggest that what we do down here is actually *not*
contra dancing because we dance to the music of wacko clayfoots and cajuns
and white trash and vagrants and hobos and suchlike? THAT would be an
interesting claim. :-)
It was fun to hear Pigs Eye Landing cited as an example of how popular
"northern" (meaning NE style) music would be in St Louis, by a musically
aware dancer (a classical musician who's now playing for dances) and then
hearing them described a week and 500 miles later as "basically an
old-time band" by a caller in Philly.
> But I'm a New Englander - I'm used to dancing to "northern" music!
Yep. Exactly.
SOME contra dance bands have the New England tradtion at their core. But
many (probably most) others do not; you don't hear those bands both
because they don't tour (many of the Midwestern bands) and because even if
they did tour there are only a handful of places in New England they
*could* be booked--most New England dances have fixed bands. I think this
is unfortunate, and one reason I live here and not there is that I like
being able to dance to more than one style of music.
~ Kiran "now if only we could get them to SING" <ent...@io.com>
--
"It is possible that Debussy did not intend to call it _La Mer_
but _Le Mal de Mer_, which would at once make the tone-picture
as clear as day." --Louis Elson, Boston Daily Advertiser, 1907,
quoted in _Lexicon of Musical Invective_, ed. Nicolas Slonimsky
Kiran Wagle
Kerry Blech <Kerry...@gnn.com> wrote:
> It is demeaning and insulting to the dancers' intelligence to resort to such
> obvious cheap tricks. What happened to great, rock solid traditional music?
> Gimmicks, cheap thrills..., gimme a break,
> this isn't rock and roll....or is it?
Which rock solid traditional music would this be? Jazz, perhaps, or
"classical," or opera?
Composers and performers in those traditions have always used what might
be considered "cheap tricks" in the idiom of the time. Today we think
Beethoven's 9th is a masterpiece, but throwing a chorus into a symphony at
that time was a gimmick, a cheap thrill, a trick (and not even a very good
one at that.) Now we take such things for granted, and grumble about the
synthesizers, tapes, and bird calls finding their way into the symphonic
repertoire.
~ Kiran <ent...@io.com>
Kiran Wagle
Richard Crew (ri...@archytas.duckpond) wrote:
> But I must confess that some folks I know, who are very good dancers,
> and who came from the northern tradition like I did, find it more difficult
> to dance to old-time music than to New England style music.
This is interesting. When I was a new dancer in Indiana, I drove to
Louisville every Monday to dance to that wonderful open band they used to
have, which played mostly plunky Celtic music. I didn't much like that
woo woo old-time music at all, either to dance to or to listen to. And
some of you remember the Rhythym Rhinos. *I* didn't have any trouble at
all dancing to them, but I would have been lost five years ago.
Now, after a few more years of dancing, I find old-time music (Southern or
Midwestern) a lot easier--both a lot easier than it was, and a lot easier
than northern music--to dance to AND a lot more fun than northern music
(though dancing to a good Celtic band is still way fun.)
So I wonder where the ability to dance to, enjoy dancing to, and easily
dance to, variety of styles of music comes from? Is it due to experience,
skill, exposure, or something else? (I believe the ability to dance to
any kind of music comes from skill, but what makes it *easy*? After all,
you claim it's "*more* difficult," which implies that it is in some way
difficult.)
> Sugar in the Gourd or Mississippi Sawyer
Ohh, Mississippi Sawyer, now THAT is a tune to dance to all night. (I
don't know the other one.) And it just happens to be the first tune on
Ralph Blizard's recent CD "Southern Ramble" (Rounder 0352) which I play
about as much as I play my String Beings CD--and there is no higher praise
than that from *this* contra dancer.
But what I really want from life is to dance "The Rendezvous" to that old
Hank Williams tune "Pan American" after midnight at Sugar Hill someday.
~ Kiran "but why don't they ever SING?" <ent...@io.com>
--
(202) 483-3373 <http://www.io.com/contradance/> 1628 5th St NW Wash DC 20001
Bruce Reid
I grew up, musically speaking, playing for contra dances in the 70's in San
Diego with friends who were doing everything they could to recreate the
traditional New England dances epitomized by Dudley Laughman. We played and
danced the chestnuts with a lilting and moderately paced style that I have not
seen now anywhere for well over 10 years--with the exception of a small dance
a couple of years ago on Cape Cod. I miss those tunes and that style.
But I have always found the "rock and roll" contra music of such bands as
the Hillbillies From Mars and, I think, Wild Asparagus (I've only seen them
once and am having a little trouble placing the music just now) thrilling and
exciting, and I love playing in this style.
Many years ago when bands playing Southern music started entering the scene,
I looked askance at first. But over time I began to see that it really made
just as much sense, it seemed, provided the band knew how to play for dances.
A few years ago I was lucky to dance at a couple of nights in Chicago to music
from various groupings from the Volo Bogtrotters crowd, and I loved it. Now
I play for dances in three bands playing Southern or Mid-western tunes, and
one duo playing New England and Quebecois tunes. All of these seem to work
just fine and the dancers seem happy (though the south/mid-west bands do get
asked for jigs a lot, which are declined).
It seems to me the most important consideration is if the band is playing the
dancers or not. If so, it seems just about anything with the right meter and
number of measures works. If not, the most secure of New England chestnuts
fails to raise the dancers off the floor.
My opinion is: look at the caller's dance card, try to find tunes that seem
to fit the figures if you can, watch the walk through, pay attention to the
caller, and, above all else, watch the dancers and do your best to goose them
into the figures. When people are smiling, swirling, flowing, unhurried, and
graceful, then you've got it right. Given that, play the tunes you like.
I do miss those chestnuts, though!
-WB
--
Disclaimer: all opinions expressed here are mine, not those of my employer
UUCP: {hplabs|ucsd}!hp-sdd!reid
Internet: re...@sdd.hp.com
W. Bruce Reid, 16399 W. Bernardo Dr., San Diego, Ca. 92127
Nancy Mamlin
On Sun, 12 May 1996, Kiran Wagle wrote:
> (Okay, got to attack this thread before it expires.)
> Oh, hmm, so the String Beings, the Freight Hoppers, the Red Mountain White
> Trash, Ralph Blizard and the New Southern Ramblers, and more Midwestern
> bands than I can count aren't really contra dance bands? Funny, nobody
> told them that, nor the people who dance to them.
First of all, The String Beings, regardless of geography are not an
old-time band, and I don't think they'd claim to be.
As for the others, they are old-time bands who play for contra dancers.
(That's where the money is- there aren't that many square dances around,
you know..)
> playing. And I have a hard time finding any New England in that Vermont
> band I love so much, the Clayfoot Stutters. Closer to (my) home are the
Given that Pete Sutherland was/is one of the best old-time fiddlers
around, I still think I'd place the Strutters roots as a group in New
England.
Just wanted to clear a few things up... and make sure that even if I play
for contra dancers more than other groups of people (for money) doesn't
make that the "heart and soul" of what I do. That lies outside the dance
hall.
Nancy
***************************
Nancy Mamlin, Ph. D.
College of Education
Appalachian State University
Boone, NC 28608
704-262-6059 (office)
maml...@conrad.appstate.edu (email)
Nancy Mamlin
On Sun, 12 May 1996, Kiran Wagle wrote:
Kiran,
Who is it that you want to sing, why, and under what circumstances?
Nancy
Richard Crew
Kiran Wagle <ent...@io.com> wrote:
: Now, after a few more years of dancing, I find old-time music (Southern or
: Midwestern) a lot easier--both a lot easier than it was, and a lot easier
: than northern music--to dance to AND a lot more fun than northern music
: (though dancing to a good Celtic band is still way fun.)
:
: So I wonder where the ability to dance to, enjoy dancing to, and easily
: dance to, variety of styles of music comes from? Is it due to experience,
: skill, exposure, or something else? (I believe the ability to dance to
: any kind of music comes from skill, but what makes it *easy*? After all,
: you claim it's "*more* difficult," which implies that it is in some way
: difficult.)
I'm sure that a lot of has to do simply with one's appreciation of the
music -- if you understand the musical style, you can dance to it better.
If you were raised on the Northern style, then you tend to focus on certain
things -- melody, mainly -- that aren't brought out so obviously by many
(though not all) Southern players, who are more interested in rhythm and
harmony. This of course is a gross oversimplification, yet anyway...
BTW, it wasn't the *I* found it more difficult to dance to old-time music,
but rather other people that I know.
--Rich
Steve Goldfield
In article <entropy-1205...@192.0.2.3>,
Kiran Wagle <ent...@io.com> wrote:
#>> Sugar in the Gourd or Mississippi Sawyer
#>
#>Ohh, Mississippi Sawyer, now THAT is a tune to dance to all night. (I
#>don't know the other one.) And it just happens to be the first tune on
Kiran's remark reminds me of the difference in perspective
between dancers and musicians. I've only played for a relatively
few dances, and even fewer contra dances, but from my perspective,
I want to play tunes that can maintain my interest for a long time,
preferably those that lend themselves to that hypnotic state
where we keep playing them over and over again without tiring.
But those aren't necessarily the same tunes that dancers like to
dance to. For instance, for me many of the best tunes to go on for
a long time on are crooked. Mississippi Sawyer isn't one that I,
for one, would like to play for a whole dance. If I were playing
it, I'd like to switch off with one or two other D tunes. It's
all well and good to say that the musicians work for the dancers
and the caller, who pay them, but there also needs to be a balance
with the preferences of the musicians. You'll get a better dance
if the musicians are enthusiastic about the tunes they play.
I've noticed that on the relatively rare occasions when I dance,
I don't notice the particular tune unless I force my attention
away from the dance. When I've heard great dance bands like the
L-7s or James Bryan last year, I'd generally rather listen than
dance since dancing seems to interfere with appreciation of the
music itself. But that's probably a musician's perspective, too.
Someone who dances more often may be able to listen more
attentively while dancing.
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Steve Goldfield :-{ {-: s...@coe.berkeley.edu
University of California at Berkeley Richmond Field Station
"There is no limit to the capacity of humans for self-deception"