Origin - Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies?
Brittles
There's been a discussion on the clawhammer newsgroup about the origin of the
tune (and NAME, I assume), "Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies".
I thought some of the more knowledgeable folks on this newsgroup might be able
to help. Kerry? Anyone else?
Thanks-
Ed Britt
Brit...@aol.com
***********************
The previous thread went:
Ryan wrote:
> >> Are there any scholarly musicologist types out there that might be able
> >>to help me with a song's origin? I'm interested in finding out about
"Bonaparte
> >> Crossing the Rockies." < <<
(Joel)<shim...@poboxes.com> answered:
> >It's not a song, it doesn't have words; it's a tune. I've always believed
> >that this name for Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine was the product of
> >someone's puckish sense of humor. Could it have been Bob Carlin?<<
I answered:
* Bob did a wonderful version of it on the '70's "Melodic Clawhammer" album.*
Then I decided, why not *ASK BOB* !?
Here's his answer:
>...I didn't retitle it, and Crossing the Rhine is sometimes a different
>tune altogether. Alan Jabbour (aj...@loc.gov) or John hartford (through his
web
>site) would be more logical choices for info. I wrote at the time of Melodic
lp
>that "The same melody is used for the song, "The Hot Asphault," that Ted Levin
>(my source) learned in the Hebrides from an RAF officer. Margaret MacArthur
>recorded the tune on the Living Folk lp, ON THE MOUNTAINS HIGH."
>
>Oh yes, try the fiddle web site (I'm not sure of the address).
>
>best--bob carlin<
And the search goes on...
Ed Britt
Brit...@aol.com
Oldtime1
Ed asked:
>There's been a discussion on the clawhammer newsgroup about the origin >of the
>tune (and NAME, I assume), "Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies".
>I thought some of the more knowledgeable folks on this newsgroup might >be
able
>to help. Kerry? Anyone else?
>Thanks-
>Ed Britt
I believe that is is a sixties joke title to an old tune I can't recall at the
moment. Certainly it has been used that way. In the late 70s the Ozark Folk
Center had a Merle Travis Fingerpicking Contest and Glenn Ohrlin, whose playing
is a bit rudimentary, entered, picking a Mexican excercise on his gut-string
guitar and calling it by that name. There were 17 contestants. all but Glenn
hot-shot Travis-style pickers.
The judges were Lena Hughes (fine parlor style guitarist from Missouri, good
person, and wife of fiddler Jake Hughes), Merle Travis himself, and yours
truly. They locked us in a downstairs box and we could not see the contestants
or hear their names. We got 'em by number as in contest style fiddle contests.
We'd been listening to the same players for a day and could recognize some. And
we were not much impressed by the contest spirit. I recall Travis saying,
"That's that old red-headed boy, got two licks, one from me, one from Chet.
Fuck him, give him minus five."
Glenn and Merle were old friends from some presentations by Archie Green. When
Ohrlin came on with that fake title tune, Merle said, "That's old Glenn, let's
give him first prize." But after a bit of reflction, "No, they'd kill us, maybe
second." After more reflection, "No, they'd still kill us, but we can give him
third." And we did.
Crossing the stage in front of us to get his prize, Ohrlin whispered sotto voce
to Merle and me, "You bastards are going to get run out of town." Afterwards
we went over to Glenn's house with a gang of others and told jokes until the
wee hours. Joe Wilson
Kerry Blech
Brittles wrote:
>
> There's been a discussion on the clawhammer newsgroup about the origin of the
> tune (and NAME, I assume), "Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies".
>
> I thought some of the more knowledgeable folks on this newsgroup might be able
> to help. Kerry? Anyone else?
>
>
Ed,
I'm not familiar with that title, as far as coming out of old-time
tradition. How does it go? OK, can you give me the name of some
recording that has it that is not part of the old-time revival?
Then maybe I can track it down and see if it sounds familiar.
How about "Bonaparte Crossing Rte 21?"
Sorry,
Kerry
--
Blec...@WolfeNet.com
"When you get above the clouds, you can do just as you choose."
- The Rector Trio, Asheville, NC 1930
WVdulcimer
>>
>> There's been a discussion on the clawhammer newsgroup about the origin of
>the
>> tune (and NAME, I assume), "Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies".
>>
There is a quirky tradition of putting Boney's name on tunes. Dave Bing, on his
"Family and Friends" tape (and included also on his CD I believe) had some fun
with making a medley of B. Crossing the Rhine, B's Retreat, and B Crossing the
Alps. Last year at Cedar Lakes Jim Costa was making fun of Dave, announcing
many tunes as "Bonaparte Taking Out the Trash," or "Bonaparte Scratching His
Head with a Pine Cone" or such.
But seriously, why all the Bonaparte titles? I can't see that the tunes were
ever thought of as French in origin or style. Sure Bonaparte was an immense
romantic presence in the world, but to me that does not explain why most
fiddlers around here (As evidenced in the archive field recordings at WVU) used
to know at least two Bonaparte tunes (Retreat and Rhine), and only one
Washington -- and no Franklin, Lee, Grant, Jefferson, Charlemagne, Alexander,
etc. Happily, this is a question with probably no good answer!
D Williams
David Sanderson
"Caledonia March", it was originally, and southern Appalachian tradition
gave it the flavor. It's on the first (I think) Fuzzy Mountain String
Band LP, and a march it is for sure.
Bonaparte was, to 19th-century Europeans, a kind of looming bogeyman
figure, suitable for threatening disobedient children, and the fixation
carried itself over into multiple tunes - check out the O'Neil Irish
collection for a whole bunch ("Madame Bonaparte" is a nice one).
Having imported the tunes to America, nothing could be more natural than
to alter the geography appropriately, logic having no particular
relevance here, and what might have been "crossing the Rhine" got to be
"crossing the Rockies". The oldest reference to the tune I know of (and
LOC must have versions from the 30's) is in a book from (I think) the
40's on Southern Appalchian culture, and retells an incident that
supposedly occurred in the 30's. An old fiddler was playing this tune,
and when challenged as to the geography replied (with wonderful
codgerish assurance) "Well, some folks say he crossed the Rhine and some
say he crossed the Rockies. Historians differ on that point."
--
David Sanderson dav...@greennet.net
06/09/98 21:15
[ Standard Disclaimer ]
pamela Longtine
Brittles <brit...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806091206...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> There's been a discussion on the clawhammer newsgroup about the origin of
the
> tune (and NAME, I assume), "Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies".
>
> I thought some of the more knowledgeable folks on this newsgroup might be
able
> to help. Kerry? Anyone else?
>
> Thanks-
>
> Ed Britt
> Brit...@aol.com
>
> ***********************
There's a story about this tune in Allen H. Eaton, Handicrafts of the
Southern Highlands (1937, repr. Dover 1973).
Tunes at a Knoxville fiddlers' convention included "Napolean Crossing the
Rocky Mountains, which several contestants chose to render. This tune
seemed to be a particular favorite and one which it was stated was local to
that part of Tennessee. This, however, proved to be an error, for it was
found to be also popular in parts of North Carolina and in Kentucky. Dean
WIlliam Jesse Baird of Berea College heard it in Pine Mountain and tells
this story about it: 'Uncle John' delighted in playing for visitors and
sooner or later he would say, 'Now, I want to play you my favorite; I calls
hit Napolean Crossing the Rocky Mountains.' One day a teacher at Pine
Mountain said, 'Uncle John, you mean Napolean Crossing the Alps'. 'I don't
know, maybe I do,' he replied. Sometime later he was playing for a visitor
and at his usual point announced, 'Now I want to play you my favorite; I
calls hit Napolean Crossing the Rockies. Some folks say Napolean never
crossed the Rockies, that he crossed the Alps, but historians differ on
that point'".
John Heine
Joel Shimberg
> Bonaparte was, to 19th-century Europeans, a kind of looming bogeyman
> figure, suitable for threatening disobedient children, and the fixation
> carried itself over into multiple tunes - check out the O'Neil Irish
> collection for a whole bunch ("Madame Bonaparte" is a nice one).
> David Sanderson dav...@greennet.net
Well, you see, the Irish would see him differently. There's that old
saying, "My enemy's enemy is my friend." Boney was a potential savior, not
a bogeyman, and this would help explain the profusion of Bonaparte tunes.
Joel Shimberg
--
(Joel)shim...@poboxes.com
Insanity is hereditary...
You get it from your kids.
Eric Root
With respect to Bonaparte's Aura (which could also be the name of a
tune!):
I was in Monte Carlo back in '91 (no, I'm not rich - I'm in the
Army, and we had two families in one mini-van) and they had a Napoleon
museum there (he had evidently saved Monaco from the Italians). While
the amount of genuine historical antiques was impressive, what was
really impressive was "Napoleon as Elvis" - the huge amount of strange
souvenirs Napoleon fans generated, especially starting at his funeral -
minute copies of his casket purporting to contain one of his hairs,
figurines, etc.
-Eric Root
-Metal-ended concertina - instrument which will fit under the seat of a
plane.
-Metal-bodied guitar - instrument which won't.
Gail Gillespie
: But seriously, why all the Bonaparte titles? I can't see that the tunes were
: ever thought of as French in origin or style. Sure Bonaparte was an immense
: romantic presence in the world, but to me that does not explain why most
: fiddlers around here (As evidenced in the archive field recordings at WVU) used
: to know at least two Bonaparte tunes (Retreat and Rhine), and only one
: Washington -- and no Franklin, Lee, Grant, Jefferson, Charlemagne, Alexander,
: etc. Happily, this is a question with probably no good answer!
: D Williams
This may be neither here nor there, but here's a thought on the
Bonaparte mania in Appalachia. Right before the Civil War there were a
great many mineral spring health resorts in Virginia (which included
modern West Virginia). Although few are left (the Homestead, the
Greenbrier, Warm Springs), mt. spring resorts were numerous between the
Revolutionary and Civil Wars & acted as islands of "high"
culture in what was at that time a wilderness. Wealthy lowlanders spent
months touring the spring region, traveling with trunks full of European
clothes and dancing to the music of European musicians. In the decades
before the war Jerome Bonaparte (grandnephew of Napoleon) and his son
Charles Joseph were celebrated visitors to the springs. Jerome had a
cottage at White Sulphur Springs. At some of the springs, when the season
was drawing to a close and the European violinists had gone home, local
musicians played for the dances - In my research for my dissertation I
discovered several descriptionss in contemporary journals and letters
written by spring visitors of banjo players & fiddlers playing for
dances/entertainment at smaller resorts like Grayson Sulphur Springs as
well as off-season at Salt Sulphur and White Sulphur Springs. The
Bonapartes were near legendary visitors to these places...so maybe there's
a connection.
-GG
Kerry, Sheila, Louise or Mirabelle Blech
Just for the record, I checked through the aptly named
"checklist" for the Archive of Folk Song/Culture,
Library of Congress and there are no entries prior to
1941 for any tune resembling this title: no
Bonaparte Crossing teh Alps, no Bonaparte Crossing the
Rhine, no Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies, no Bonaparte Crossing
His Eyes, no nothin'.
Just a bunch o' tunes called variously Bonaparte, Bonaparte's March,
and the ubiquitous Bonaparte's Retreat.
I'd like to see citations for "it" (B. Crossing the <whatever>) in
American tradition. I'm not saying that there isn't any, I'd
just like to know who played, where, and when it was documented.
Thanks.
Kerry
--
***** ****** ***** ***** ***** ***** ******
Kerry, Sheila, Mirabelle Rose & Louise Marie Blech
blec...@wolfenet.com + http://www.wolfenet.com/~blechfam
"The Old Tunes Are the Best Tunes." -- Luther Davis
Steve Goldfield
In article <3580B3...@wolfenet.com>,
Kerry, Sheila, Louise or Mirabelle Blech <blec...@wolfenet.com> wrote:
#>Just for the record, I checked through the aptly named
#>"checklist" for the Archive of Folk Song/Culture,
#>Library of Congress and there are no entries prior to
#>1941 for any tune resembling this title: no
#>Bonaparte Crossing teh Alps, no Bonaparte Crossing the
#>Rhine, no Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies, no Bonaparte Crossing
#>His Eyes, no nothin'.
#>
#>Just a bunch o' tunes called variously Bonaparte, Bonaparte's March,
#>and the ubiquitous Bonaparte's Retreat.
#>
#>I'd like to see citations for "it" (B. Crossing the <whatever>) in
#>American tradition. I'm not saying that there isn't any, I'd
#>just like to know who played, where, and when it was documented.
#>
#>Thanks.
#>Kerry
#>
#>--
#>***** ****** ***** ***** ***** ***** ******
#> Kerry, Sheila, Mirabelle Rose & Louise Marie Blech
My information (don't recall source) is that Bonaparte
Crossing the Rhine was also called Sherman's March to the
Sea (and possibly some other names). It wouldn't surprise
me if that name was changed in the South.
Steve
(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>(8<})>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Goldfield <stev...@best.com> * El Cerrito, California
* Home Page--<http://www.best.com/~stevesag/stevesag.html> *
David Sanderson
I still recall it originally as "Caledonia March", British/Scottish,
imported and renamed, but don't recall where I saw the reference. That
post about the Appalachian Highlands book is correct - I remember seeing
it, too, and that's definitely from the 30's. Where did the Fuzzy
Mountain folks pick that thing up when they recorded it? I need to root
out that album and see if there are any notes.
--
David Sanderson dav...@greennet.net
06/12/98 16:46
[ Standard Disclaimer ]
Amy Hauslohner
The original name of the City of Galax was....
Bonaparte.
Amy Hauslohner
pamela Longtine
Kerry, Sheila, Louise or Mirabelle Blech <blec...@wolfenet.com> wrote in
article <3580B3...@wolfenet.com>...
> Just for the record, I checked through the aptly named
> "checklist" for the Archive of Folk Song/Culture,
> Library of Congress and there are no entries prior to
> 1941 for any tune resembling this title: no
> Bonaparte Crossing teh Alps, no Bonaparte Crossing the
> Rhine, no Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies, no Bonaparte Crossing
> His Eyes, no nothin'.
>
> Just a bunch o' tunes called variously Bonaparte, Bonaparte's March,
> and the ubiquitous Bonaparte's Retreat.
>
> I'd like to see citations for "it" (B. Crossing the <whatever>) in
> American tradition. I'm not saying that there isn't any, I'd
> just like to know who played, where, and when it was documented.
>
> Thanks.
> Kerry
>
> --
> ***** ****** ***** ***** ***** ***** ******
> Kerry, Sheila, Mirabelle Rose & Louise Marie Blech
> blec...@wolfenet.com + http://www.wolfenet.com/~blechfam
> "The Old Tunes Are the Best Tunes." -- Luther Davis
>
Handicrafts of the Southern Highlands, by Allen H. Eaton, was published in
1937. It is a succinctly-titled study that includes a chapter on musical
instruments, which is the source of a story about Napoleon Crossing the
Rocky Mountains. At a Knoxville fiddlers' convention:
"...there was a great variety of selections, including Grey Eagle, Old
Hen and Chickens, Sourwood Mountain, Turkey Buzzard, Old Blue Eagle, and
Napoleon Crossing the Rocky Mountains, which several contestants chose to
render. This tune seemed to be a favorite and one which it was stated was
local to that part of Tennessee. This, however, proved to be an error, for
it was found to be also popular in parts of North Carolina and in Kentucky.
Dean William Jesse Baird of Berea College heard it in Pine Mountain and
tells this story about it: 'Uncle John' delighted in playing for visitors
and sooner or later he would say, 'Now, I want to play you my favoitie; I
calls hit Napolean Crossing the Rocky Mountains.' One day a teacher at
Pine Mountain said, 'Uncle John, yolu mean Napoleon Crossing the Alps.' 'I
don't know; maybe I do,' he replied. Sometime later he was playing for a
visitor and at his usual point announced, 'Now I want to play you my
favorite; I calls it Napoleon Crossing the Rockies. Some folks say
Napoleon never crossed the Rockies, that he crossed the Alps, but
historians differ on that point.'"
--John Heine
Wally Macnow
I'm not sure if this is the origin but it's a great story.
A folklorist was collecting tunes from French Carpenter. French played him
this tune called "Bonaparte Crossing The Rockies". At the end of the tune,
the collector said to French, "You know French, I don't believe Napleon
Bonaparte was ever in the United States."
French paused for a moment and then said
"scholars differ."
--
Wally Macnow
Camsco Music - http://www.camsco.com
Brittles wrote in message
Kerry Blech
Wally Macnow wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if this is the origin but it's a great story.
>
> A folklorist was collecting tunes from French Carpenter. French played him
> this tune called "Bonaparte Crossing The Rockies". At the end of the tune,
> the collector said to French, "You know French, I don't believe Napleon
> Bonaparte was ever in the United States."
>
> French paused for a moment and then said
> "scholars differ."
Thanks Wally,
This title, however, does not appear in the French Carpenter
known-collected canon. At least not to my knowledge.
Good story, though (to paraphrase Bruce Phillips).
Regards,
kerry
Kerry Blech
pamela Longtine wrote:
>
> Handicrafts of the Southern Highlands, by Allen H. Eaton, was published in
> 1937. It is a succinctly-titled study that includes a chapter on musical
> instruments, which is the source of a story about Napoleon Crossing the
> Rocky Mountains. At a Knoxville fiddlers' convention:
> "...there was a great variety of selections, including Grey Eagle, Old
> Hen and Chickens, Sourwood Mountain, Turkey Buzzard, Old Blue Eagle, and
> Napoleon Crossing the Rocky Mountains, which several contestants chose to
> render. This tune seemed to be a favorite and one which it was stated was
> local to that part of Tennessee. This, however, proved to be an error, for
> it was found to be also popular in parts of North Carolina and in Kentucky.
> Dean William Jesse Baird of Berea College heard it in Pine Mountain and
> tells this story about it: 'Uncle John' delighted in playing for visitors
> and sooner or later he would say, 'Now, I want to play you my favoitie; I
> calls hit Napolean Crossing the Rocky Mountains.' One day a teacher at
> Pine Mountain said, 'Uncle John, yolu mean Napoleon Crossing the Alps.' 'I
> don't know; maybe I do,' he replied. Sometime later he was playing for a
> visitor and at his usual point announced, 'Now I want to play you my
> favorite; I calls it Napoleon Crossing the Rockies. Some folks say
> Napoleon never crossed the Rockies, that he crossed the Alps, but
> historians differ on that point.'"
>
> --John Heine
Thanks, Pamela.
I'm looking for something more specific, though. Who was "Uncle John?"
It's curious that the "kicker" for this story is quite similar to
the "Scholars differ" ending we saw elsewhere. It rather brings in
the air of urban legen/apocrypha.
I'm still looking for a concrete citation, that is, a field recording
citation or ifled not e citation, or specific name pinned to the tune.
I believe that I have the above-mentioned book on a shelf somewhere at
home, thogh I have not read it in some years. Thanks for bringing
up that title.
Regards,
Kerry
Sarah Bryan
French and "Scholars differ" is the version I've heard too. I've looked
around for the recording and finally figured that it doesn't exist, but
I sure would have liked to listen to it and Mr. Mar-tin's "I'm no
historian" recording one after the other.
Sarah
PAULSBANJO
>Library of Congress and there are no entries prior to
>1941 for any tune resembling this title: no
>Bonaparte Crossing teh Alps, no Bonaparte Crossing the
>Rhine, no Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies, no Bonaparte Crossing
>His Eyes, no nothin'.
>Just a bunch o' tunes called variously Bonaparte, Bonaparte's March,
>and the ubiquitous Bonaparte's Retreat.
Hi All
I can't verify this, but I seem to remember seeing "Bonapart's Retreat" as
"Bonapart's Retreat Across the Rocky Mountain's" somewhere. Of course this
would have been shortened to "B..... R..." and of course it would not
necessarily been "the Rocky's" (it might have been refering to some
"unspecified" european "rocky" mountain's
anyway my $.02
Paul