accordions and concertinas in old-time music?
Cliff McIntosh
old-time music? Have they figured in old-time music in the past?
If you've seen a squeezebox player show up at a jam or a dance, do you
recall what sort of instrument they were playing? An accordion with a
piano keyboard? Buttons? A concertina?
Does anyone here know of any recordings of old-time music that include
squeezeboxes?
Thanks,
Cliff
Library Guy
>Does anyone here know of accordion or concertina players playing
>old-time music? Have they figured in old-time music in the past?
>
>Does anyone here know of any recordings of old-time music that include
>squeezeboxes?
Random comments...
Two nights ago we were having tunes with PA fiddler Woody Woodring.
We played one called Dogs In The Barnyard. The original by Hugh Roden
& Roy Rogers (yes, *that* Roy Rogers), was recorded as a test for
OKeh, but never released. They also waxed a couple of other tests
(never released) called Hogs In The Potato Patch and Chicken In The
Garden. Roy played the dreaded piano accordion on these.
There's an accordion on the classic Blind Joe Mangum pairing, Bacon
And Cabbage / Bill Cheatam.
Leadbelly played the button accordion. I know of at least one relesed
78, Corn Bread Rough.
Of course, there were lots of boxes in early Western Swing recordings.
LG
Lyle Lofgren
include Cajun and Tex-Mex in the category, and they, of course, use
accordions. Here in Minnesota, "Old-Time" means dance music in the
Swedish, German or Bohemian traditions, and they all use accordions or
(in the case of Bohemian), concertinas.
Bill Monroe once had a piano accordion player in his band -- that
should convince even purists that it's OK.
The accordion is, though, fairly rare in recordings of Appalachian OT
music, but to get an idea of what it might sound like, listen to
recordings of British folk music groups that include concertina. If
memory serves, the High Level Ranters were one such group that used it
well. Then all you have to do is replace the British accent in the
music with a mountain accent.
Lyle
Library Guy
>I have a broader concept of Old-Time music than some other people do. I
>include Cajun and Tex-Mex in the category, and they, of course, use
>accordions. Here in Minnesota, "Old-Time" means dance music in the
>Swedish, German or Bohemian traditions, and they all use accordions or
>(in the case of Bohemian), concertinas.
Very, very good point, Lylie! Yes, the accordion was and is widely
used in old-time music from Louisiana to Mexico to Ireland.
Riley Puckett recorded with an accordionist, too, but the material,
like When I Grow Too Old To Dream, is not old-time music.
LG
Cliff McIntosh
a broad definition of "old-time," but I was thinking of Appalachian
old-time, including square dance music.
Thanks for those tips, and thanks in advance for other replies.
Cliff
hucktunes™ ©
same time. My band, Slackjaw, had an Irish concertina player for a
while. He also had a box that sat on the floor and made a low drone
sound.
Library Guy
>I heartily endorse and understand
>a broad definition of "old-time," but I was thinking of Appalachian
>old-time, including square dance music.
Well I knew that, and probably Lyle did too. Personally, and honestly,
in a session of Southern old-time dance music, based around fiddle and
clawhammer banjo, I would not welcome the appearance of an accordion
player. But I love the squeezebox in many other forms of traditional
music. Go figure. Still, I'm sure that many square dances have been
hot-footed to the music of an accordion of some sort.
And you *should* listen to those Blind Joe Mangum tunes I mentioned.
They've been reissued somewhere, I'm sure, at least Bill Cheatum has.
I'm sure that there's some contemporary old-time band out there that
uses an accordion - there's so much going on these days - but as to
that I plead blissful ignorance. More power to whoever, whatever
they're doing, as long as it's fun.
LG
er...@swva.net
Roddy Moore(?) over at Ferrum College has old pictures of black and
white appalachians with one row boxes. _Strings of Life_ also has a
picture of an older lady holding a one row box that had belonged to an
ancestor.
If you allow revivalists (many reasons not to) you see such things as
Casey Hash of Grayson County, VA playing piano accordion with the Wolfe
Brothers and I saw Peter Hoover playing English concertina at Clifftop
a couple of summers ago. Sometimes when my wife and I are playing
concertina together, we will switch from the normal mix of Scottish,
English, and Irish music and play whatever old time tune we are also
currently working on on fiddle and banjo. I sometimes spring old time
tunes on our celtic-eclectic session group, with whom I play
concertina, but I would cut my throat with a rattail file before I
would take the concertina out at a specifically old-time jam.
I am trying to sucker my brother into old-time music, and he's mostly
an accordion (piano and B/C) and keyboard player. He used to be a
decent mando player and I hope he takes it up again.
Eric Root
Library Guy
Kimberly International Old Time Accordion Championships:
http://www.kiotac.ca/ (unfortunately, no sound clips are available on
the web site)...
KIOTAC BREAKS WORLD RECORD -
644 accordion players lined up to help break the Guinness book of
World Record last night at the Kimberley Civic Center. Before a
standing room only audience the record fell.
Kimberley International Oldtime Accordion Championships News
The previous record held for the largest accordion ensemble was
organized by the Stedeker Dansers. This consisted of 566 musicians
playing the accordion for 22 minutes, during the International
Folklore Festival in Diepenheim, The Netherlands, on June 1, 2000.
Last night 644 accordions played for 29 minutes and 30 seconds.
This is folklore, people. It says so right there inb the blurb.
LG
Lyle Lofgren
Shades of "Deliverance!" Are Appalachian musicians really so
close-minded that you'd rather saw on your throat with a rat-tailed
file? It might give you a more authentic singing voice, though.
The key to me is not the instrument, but how you play it -- if you can
play it without too much chromaticity, too much sentimental expression,
and without certain types of non-traditional ornamentation (i.e., as
I've montonously said before, don't let your ability outrun your
talent), then it'll sound like authentic OT music. Remember that some
of the most exciting OT recordings, by Reaves White County Ramblers,
used a pump organ (well, maybe you would get jeered at if you tried to
haul a pump organ into a jam).
Sometimes nomenclature helps: always bring a fiddle to an OT jam, never
a violin. And don't bring an accordion or a concertina: bring a squeeze
box.
Lyle
squirre...@gmail.com
j_ns...@msn.com
j_ns...@msn.com
I highly recommend the CD _Virginia Traditions: Non-Blues Secular Black
Music_ for this.
Joseph Scott
Tony
in the Germanic upper mid-west, the Cajuns of Louisiana, and Tex-Mex
Conjuncto and California Latino, to say nothing of Irish from Boston,
Chicago and other cities, there are many uses of accordians - from single
row button insturments up to full 70lb 120 bass piano keyboard model one
would see on the Lawrence Welk show.
The concertina seems less represented as far as I can tell. John Roberts
who does English folk and some American old time along with Morris tunes
uses one but most of the other people I've heard use then have been from
Ireland. I've heard a couple L.O.C. recordings of concertinas doing old
time - and one of Leadbelly.
I do remember Gabby Hayes type characters with concertinas playing
sentimental songs of the 19th century in cowboy movies of the 40s - but I
suspect they were faking the playing.
--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
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"Cliff McIntosh" <cliff.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137072299.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dan Gellert
> Does anyone here know of accordion or concertina players playing
> old-time music? Have they figured in old-time music in the past?
Judging from photos, artwork, and written descriptions, it appears that
the use of one-row button accordions for traditional dance music was
once very widespread in the U.S., though you sure couldn't tell that
from the phonographic record.
I suspect that the damnation of all things German which was promoted
here during WWI might have contributed to the instrument's fall in
popularity. Hmm.. come to think of it, maybe that's also why they
started calling the harmonica "French harp" (anyone know the real
origin of that one?)
Dan
hucktunes™ ©
Dan Gellert wrote:
> Hmm.. come to think of it, maybe that's also why they
> started calling the harmonica "French harp" (anyone know the real
> origin of that one?)
>
> Dan
know it as a French Harp anymore. It really isn't a Harmonica because
that's what Ben Franklin called his water contraption. Maybe it's
called the French Harp because of the tongue action.
squirre...@gmail.com
Cliff McIntosh
leads on music to listen to -- so much that it'll take me even longer
to save up for a squeezebox.
Cliff
Cliff McIntosh
Bob Huck sent the link to this MP3 of banjo, fiddle, concertina and
guitar playing Barlow Knife:
http://www.humboldtmusic.com/Music/JeffKelly_BarlowKnife.mp3
Bob says the concertina player is a guy named Charlie Rudd who mostly
plays Irish tunes. This configuration is the now defunct band called
Slackjaw, right Bob?
BTW, Tom Sauber and Mark Graham did the same tune with banjo and
harmonica, and it also sounded good.
Cliff
hucktunes™ ©
Cliff McIntosh wrote:
> This configuration is the now defunct band called
> Slackjaw, right Bob?
fun. But the banjo player moved out of town, up to the hills, so we
called it quits. Charlie Rudd played with an Irish band called Primal
Drone Society. They were a great band and I was honored to play with
him. He teaches the Gaelic language at Humboldt State University.
Gaelic. That sounds kinda gay.
Seth Austen
instruments. Just a couple of weeks ago we were playing some old time
tunes together with cross tuned fiddle and Hayden duet concertina, it
sounded quite wonderful. I've also played occasionally with Rachel Hall
from the group Simple Gifts, and she plays amazing old time concertina
(and everything else). I personally think it comes down to the
musician, not the instrument.
Seth
vagabond9
University of Louisville site, I saw a couple of pictures of a woman
with a concertina and another photo of a piano accordion player. The
photos in the 108 galleries range from the early 1930s (many of J.W.
Day, also Ed Morrison, Justis Begley, Volney Fraley, The Traipsin'
Woman, et al) to the 1960s. Not all are clearly labeled and some are
mislabeled. You go a-browsin' yourself at:
http://library.louisville.edu/music/coll/thomas.html
Jean Thomas arranged a number of field recording sessions for her
stable of musicians/singers from Kentucky for the Archive of Folk Song,
Library of Congress; the Ohio Arts group; and the commercial recording
label, Victor; among others. I don't recall hearing any free-reed
instruments on my copies of the recording sessions in which she was
involved, however, but there may be some. In addition to presenting
many of the Kentucky traditions, Ms. Thomas also had some romantic
notions about some survivals in the music and so staged many events,
especially her "Elizabethan pageants." It is unclear whether the photos
of the free-reed instrument players are of truly traditional artists or
represent her staged pageantry. This also assumes a "definition of
truly traditional...".
Best,
Kerry
Donald_Borchelt
Roy Rogers movie, called Trigger Jr., made in 1950. There was Roy, singing
a song with a little band, made up of a guitar, fiddle, base and concertina.
Of course, I'm not sure if the guy on screen was really playing it, but the
concertina sound was definitely there in the sound track. Is cowboy music
old-time music. Actually, it sounded pretty damn good, given there weren't
no banjo!
- Don Borchelt
"Cliff McIntosh" <cliff.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137072299.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Tony Russell
----------
In article <0umcs19dnq3hncn2v...@4ax.com>, Library Guy
<dal...@vet.upenn.edu> wrote:
>"Cliff McIntosh" wrote:
>
>>Does anyone here know of accordion or concertina players playing
>>old-time music? Have they figured in old-time music in the past?
>>
>>Does anyone here know of any recordings of old-time music that include
>>squeezeboxes?
>
>Random comments...
>
>Two nights ago we were having tunes with PA fiddler Woody Woodring.
>We played one called Dogs In The Barnyard. The original by Hugh Roden
>& Roy Rogers (yes, *that* Roy Rogers), was recorded as a test for
>OKeh, but never released. They also waxed a couple of other tests
>(never released) called Hogs In The Potato Patch and Chicken In The
>Garden. Roy played the dreaded piano accordion on these.
The guy Library Guy is referring to was spelled Rodgers, and I'm fairly sure
he was *not* the Trigger-riding singer.
TR
hey...@yahoo.com
> Does anyone here know of accordion or concertina players playing
> old-time music? Have they figured in old-time music in the past?
Cliff, Thanks for linking to this thread over in
rec.music.makers.squeezebox. I'm one of the regulars over there. In
your question on r.m.m.s, you mentioned Appalacian music specifically,
about which I know very little; that's why I didn't respond at first.
I wonder about the timeline of history in Appalachia: Were the
populations there relatively isolated from the outside at the time of
the invention of concertinas and accordions in the second quarter of
the 19th century?
I play the Chemnitzer Concertina; that's the big square one that the
Bohemians in Minnesota also play. There's also a concentration of
players here near Chicago. I play everything from Lithuanian
traditional music to Duke Ellington, but a lot of what I would call
"old-time country" music works very well on it. It's great for getting
people to sing along.
If you broaden the search to country-rock bands with a strong old-time
influence, you have Sixteen Horsepower, a Denver group who
unfortunately disbanded last year. Their leader, David Eugene Edwards
plays Chemnitzer concertina also.
I'm in a club that's been meeting in suburban Chicago since 1919.
We're always looking for new members. See my website if you might be
interested: http://www.geocities.com/heytud/ccc.html
Library Guy
Library Guy wrote:
>>Two nights ago we were having tunes with PA fiddler Woody Woodring.
>>We played one called Dogs In The Barnyard. The original by Hugh Roden
>>& Roy Rogers (yes, *that* Roy Rogers), was recorded as a test for
>>OKeh, but never released. They also waxed a couple of other tests
>>(never released) called Hogs In The Potato Patch and Chicken In The
>>Garden. Roy played the dreaded piano accordion on these.
>
>The guy Library Guy is referring to was spelled Rodgers, and I'm fairly sure
>he was *not* the Trigger-riding singer.
Really, Tony? Thanks for clearing that up. I've been mistaken for 25
years. I think a well known otm scholar who recently relocated from
Seattle gave me that information. I could be wrong about that, too!
Actually, the mis-statement is probably based on this listing, from
an ancient 'catalogue' of Frank Mare's 78 holdings
(note the spelling):
HUGH_RODEN_&_ROY_ROGERS
Ok test: W404060A Hogs In The Potato Patch e+/
Ok test: W404061A Chicken In The Garden e+/
LG
Tony Russell
It is, of course, true that the standard of reproduction on many Document
CDs does not equal that attained by labels like County, Yazoo and Old Hat.
But to write off the Document project on those grounds alone is, I would
gently suggest, to misunderstand its purpose. As Johnny Parth, the original
owner of Document, envisaged the 8000 series, it was to serve the same
function as his blues and gospel CDs: offering the complete work of an
artist or group, for listeners whose interest in hearing that work
outweighed their desire to hear it all in the best possible condition.
(That's why the label was called Document: its primary aim is documentary.)
As one or two contributors to the recent thread have realised, it's not to
be expected that the other labels mentioned would embark on complete-works
sets by, say, the Allen Brothers or Kelly Harrell; they clearly operate on
different principles, and do entirely admirable work in following those
principles.
As anyone who has worked with Johnny knows, his enthusiasm - which is the
force behind everything he does - is both invigorating and frustrating.
Because it was invigorating, we (I add myself here, as consultant on the
8000 series) produced 61 CDs in five years. (Subsequent releases, which is
to say the Walter Smith trio, were produced under the aegis of Document's
new proprietors.) The frustrating part was his frequent unwillingness to
wait until halfway decent transfers of the source material could be
obtained, with results like the Fiddlin' John Carsons, large parts of which
are in unacceptably poor sound. But I believe it's fair to say that many
other Document collections reach a level of listenability consonant with the
overall policy of the series: not first-class, but adequate for the needs of
the listener who puts comprehensiveness first. About the standard, you might
say, that that listener would expect if he or she gathered the material by
swapping tapes, or obtaining average-condition 78s. On the assumption - I
think a reasonable one - that most of Document's customers are not able, or
disposed, to go to those lengths to assemble, say, 66 recordings of Doc
Roberts, then Document CDs offer a serviceable and inexpensive solution.
Some of you may judge that aim to be too modest, but evidently it has
satisfied many people who have bought the CDs and let us know that they were
glad to have them.
I have not been involved in the BACM project, but in fairness to those who
are, and to listmembers who have read the various posts on the subject, I
should mention that at least some of their recent releases have been derived
directly from 78s in a notable English collection. One such is the
compilation 'The Victor Label: Classic Old Time Music' (CD D 129), and I
believe there's another, devoted to the Vocalion 5000 series, from the same
source. The Victor CD shows a few signs of what I'd consider excessive sound
treatment, but by and large it's very listenable. So here, too, one needs to
judge the productions on a case-by-case basis.
TR